33 replies to this topic

[Raza]

So I (25 year old male who has never paid any attention to skin care but invested significantly in other aspects of appearance) just started browsing this subforum, and realized that there are probably some good opportunities for improving the condition of my skin that I'm not currently using.

I'm on a budget, though, and many of the treatments discussed here look very expensive. So what, would you say, are the most essential and cost-effective skin treatments available? I'm not interested in stacking sunscreens and antioxidant brews for that last 2% effectiveness, but in getting the basics covered at minimal expense. I did a search and couldn't find a general thread on this.

Reading the Fredriks skincare regime thread, the highest recommendation seems to go to sunscreen and retinoid use. A link for a very affordable retinoid cream is provided there. What about the sunscreen? How important is it to get the best of the best that avoids all the potentially harmful ingredients; would a cheap factor 30 still be (much) better than nothing or would the undesirable ingredients have it add up to less than nothing?

Same question for moisturiser and cleanser. Is a cheap product worse, equal to or better than nothing? Are there affordable products that cover the basics without including anything harmful?

Anything big I'm missing?

[mustardseed41]

Cerave cleanser, Burnout sunscreen, Tretinoin from alldaychemist.com
Cheap and very effective products.

[mustardseed41]

I consider a DIY C serum the basics also. http://stores.homest...t--E/Detail.bok

[Luminosity]

Unless you have dry skin or live in a very windy or cold place, moisturizer is probably not necessary.  Avoiding sun exposure, living right and avoiding irritating your skin will be the best anti-aging steps.  Personally I like Kiss My Face plain olive oil soap. I think it is PH balanced.  It has no perfume or chemicals.  It gets the grease off my skin but does not irritate it.  The cheapest places to buy this would probably be Swansons or Vitacost.  People have different preferences in soaps/cleaners.  Fragrance is a common allergen/irritant so fragrance free is a good attribute, especially as you are a guy.  If your skin tends to be dry, Neolife green is a good shampoo/cleanser.  You have to buy it from a Neolife dealer.  Everyday Shea probably has a good conditioning cleanser that would be natural and devoid of too many chemicals. Wearing a hat, visor, sunglasses, long sleeves, avoiding the sun and wearing sunscreen would be your best anti-aging steps besides living right.  I would avoid water-resistent sunblock when you don't need it because it might clog your pores and irritate you.  Some sunscreens are not that effective for full-spectrum protection and may make false claims. Paula Begoun has written books, newsletters and a website about this.  By all means, wear sunscreens, but  I wouldn't over-rely on them for sun protection because I think we are still sorting things out there.  Use alternate means as well.

Retinoids have their good points, but they make you more sensitive to the sun.  If you are getting sunburns from that, they may do more harm than good.  If so, an alternative could be to put cooled green tea on your face with a cotton ball. Once this dries you can put sunscreen or moisturizer over it if you wish.  It adds an extra layer of sunscreen too.  If you have access to it, fresh aloe vera gel, excepting the peel and the area right inside the peel, can be helpful to your skin.  You can apply if over the green tea once it dries if you wish.  This may help you skin look better and turn over sooner.

Edited by Luminosity, 01 June 2012 - 04:11 AM.

[Raza]

Re: Mustardseed - Thanks! I'll look for those brands, and I love the idea of DIYing your mixtures.

Re: Luminosity - It's good to be able to scrap something from the list. A soap over a cleanser might work well for me, since it can double for shaving with. I tend to stay out of the sun by natural preference, but heard a sunscreen was still valuable for indirect exposure or short periods outside, especially when using a retinoid which I think sounded promising - I'll be sure to mind the extra sun-sensitivity. Thanks for your advice!

[PGN]

I suggest you read the many articles about skincare at Smartskincare.com.  Dr Todorov is a biochemist who is extremely knowledgeable about how the skin functions and all the various skincare actives on the market.  You are still young, you should not require Retin A, which can be very harsh, sun sensitizing and make you more vulnerable to sun damage.  It is a drug mainly intended for acne sufferers, not wrinkle prevention.  It can help diminish wrinkles and sun damage, but it has to be used very carefully, and not to excess.  Many people cannot tolerate Retin-A.   There are other gentler forms of vitamin A you can use which do not require a prescription. Start here with these articles.  It's good basic knowledge.  http://www.smartskin...skincarebasics/

I'm 30 years older than you, I've been through countless skincare products.  I constantly see a lot of 20 something year olds go overboard with skincare products for fear of aging and they end up with worse skin because their skin didn't need all that stuff to begin with.  Loading your skin with harsh topicals and chemicals is not good for your skin.  You can irritate your skin and it may bring on associated symptoms with redness, dryness, rosacea like symptoms.   It starts a bad cycle of trying to find more skincare products to fix the problems caused by your existing products.   Two rules I follow when evaluating skincare is to "Do no harm" and "Simple is best".   Keeping your skin as intact and healthy as possible is key to preventing premature aging.  A.good simple cleanser, SS or hat to keep the sun from hitting your face/neck/chest is all you should need at this point in your life.  Being healthy is most important.  Take care of your body and mind, and it reflects in your skin.

Edited by PGN, 01 June 2012 - 01:59 PM.

[PGN]

The official FDA drug label for Retin A (tretinoin):  http://www.drugs.com.../tretinoin.html  

Take precautions if you decide to use it.   It can cause severe irritation if misused.

Edited by PGN, 01 June 2012 - 02:37 PM.

[Raza]

That site seems to offer excellent guidance. Thank you!

On retinoids, however, I read that anyone can benefit from them so long as you use them right - and besides, I do still have occasional mild acne that I'd rather like to be rid of. I've read several guides to their safe application at this point, and am determined to try if I can find a supplier (just found out that alldaychemist doesn't ship to my country).

[PGN]

Raza, on 01 June 2012 - 02:55 PM, said:

That site seems to offer excellent guidance. Thank you!

On retinoids, however, I read that anyone can benefit from them so long as you use them right - and besides, I do still have occasional mild acne that I'd rather like to be rid of. I've read several guides to their safe application at this point, and am determined to try if I can find a supplier (just found out that alldaychemist doesn't ship to my country).

The problem is most people don't use them right.  They apply high dosages too often, thinking more is better.  In the case of retinoids, more is not better.  if you continue to use it even when you start peeling and getting red all the time, that is a sign of chronic inflammation which invites free radical damage. One of the theories of aging involves chronic inflammation.  Just as chronic inflammation is harmful to your body, it's harmful to the skin.  Just never get to that point.  

Here is a article from Dr Todorov's site, addressing skincare for people in their 20s  http://www.smartskin...are_in_20s.html

[Raza]

I know; I have read several pages of those precautions, and found that article on smartskincare already. Dr Todorov marks retinoids 'inappopriate' for twentier skin care, but on the 'aging effects of acne treatments' page does concede that proper use of them is beneficial to other skin qualities. So as far as I can see it all comes down to careful moderation, and not some mechanism that prevents me from benefiting from the stuff entirely - easing into it won't be rocket science, knowing what to watch out for.

Still, thanks for your concern. =)

Edited by Raza, 01 June 2012 - 04:11 PM.

[Luminosity]

I've just used Retinol for one day so far but it seems like a milder form of retinoid. I got a it from Paula's Choice by Paula Begoun.  She has free samples.  I'm guessing it is also less powerful than Retin A.  

The green tea is good for acne because it removes grease and calms inflammation.  For me and most people, moisturizers make acne worse. as do many sunscreens.  For some people with acne, most cleansers can be too greasy.  The Neolife Green has no grease but it doesn't take as much grease or oil off your skin as the soap I recommended.  

If you can handle the side effects and it makes a problem with your skin better, Retin A is o.k.  If you don't have a skin problem or it doesn't help your acne or the side effects are too much then I would skip it.  I had to stop taking it because I am fair-skinned and live in the tropics and I could not manage the sun-sensitivity.  If I lived somewhere else, I might have kept taking it.  I helped fade some acne scars and red marks I had permanently.  The other gains (finer pores, smoother skin, less acne) were temporary and offset by peeling, redness and sunburns.

Edited by Luminosity, 02 June 2012 - 05:33 AM.

[PGN]

Raza, on 01 June 2012 - 04:07 PM, said:

I know; I have read several pages of those precautions, and found that article on smartskincare already. Dr Todorov marks retinoids 'inappopriate' for twentier skin care, but on the 'aging effects of acne treatments' page does concede that proper use of them is beneficial to other skin qualities. So as far as I can see it all comes down to careful moderation, and not some mechanism that prevents me from benefiting from the stuff entirely - easing into it won't be rocket science, knowing what to watch out for.

Still, thanks for your concern. =)

Personal opinion:  I think Retin-A is oversold as a anti-aging topical.  It's been around for 30 years, and it's self-perpetuated itself into being the "gold standard" for anti-aging.  That is the one active most people associate with as being effective for wrinkles.  However, it does come with pros and cons.  People tend to focus on the pros and downplay the cons. There are newer vitamin A topicals that are much gentler and can achieve the same thing without as severe side effects.  Another thing to consider is what happens if you stop Retin A after long-time use?  Does your skin become dependent on it?  I don't know.   But it is a drug, which we know has the potential to be absorbed into the body after a long time of exposure.  That's why pregnant women cannot not use Retin-A.

I'm not saying Retin-A has no use in skincare.  It's effective for acne.  Just be aware everybody reacts differently.  For every person who gets great results from Retin-A, there may be 3 who can't use it.  I don't think any long-term studies (over 5 years) have been done on Retin-A as an anti-aging agent.  If anybody knows of one, I would like to read it.

I would be concerned if you have extremely fair skin and are not accustomed to sun exposure.   And again, there are other things safer for acne.  As Luminosity stated, green tea extract in a high concentration is good for moderate acne.  

I hope you read this thread about adverse effects that some people have had with Retin-A.  I won't bug you anymore.....just want you to be aware of all the possible outcomes.   http://iplandlaserda.../topic1628.html

[Raza]

Thanks. Genuinely. =)

The starter of that thread launched right into it with .04% daily, though. As I understand it, that's a lot, and averse reactions should be expected when you do that and don't immediately respond to the first signs of irritation by slowing down your application schedule.

I intend to start with .01% weekly or bi-weekly, as reactions allow, and finish that tube before moving on to .025%. No rush.

Your concerns about withdrawal might not be unfounded, but I'd need positive evidence before accounting for it. With it being around for 30 years, accounts should exist - but all I've heard is that it's one of the few things that repairs things permanently, rather than creating temporary treatment-dependent effects.

Edited by Raza, 03 June 2012 - 09:29 PM.

[Luminosity]

I used Retin  A for years and then stopped, as have many people who took it for acne.  I've never thought there are withdrawal symptoms, nor have I ever heard about that.  You just go back to what was before, with some gains remaining, like red spots removed or scars diminished.  They stay that way.  The overall Retin A induced smoothness/shine/transparency of the skin and finer pores won't remain, but it won't be any worse than before you took Retin A.

As for anti-aging gains, I don't know if they are reversed or not.  I don't have experience with that. I'm guessing that some gains remain at least.  

Raza's plan sounds sensible.

Edited by Luminosity, 04 June 2012 - 02:56 AM.

[happy lemon]

I agree with what Luminosity said.

I have been using 0.05% for 18 months and found my skin becomes much smooth and the pores are finer.

If you incorporate Retin-A into your skincare regime, a sunscreen is a must!


One key thing that Retin-A users must pay attention to is that light can break it down.

http://www.drbaileys...-retin-a-cream/

After 1 year of nightly treatment of Retin-A, you may drop it to 3-4 times a week.

For your interest:

http://www.drbaileys...ging-skin-care/
http://www.drbaileys...ging-skin-care/
http://www.drbaileys...-in-the-winter/
http://www.drbaileys...ging-skin-care/
http://www.drbaileys...ry-facial-skin/

[Raza]

Thanks for the info!

Update: I ordered a bunch of 0.1% tubes of generic retinoid from unitedpharmacies.nl, since alldaychemist doesn't deliver to my country and the 0.1% was what all they had for a good price. I mixed up a batch of ~0.01% from this with an ordinary night creme known for its excellent quality/price ratio (mixed well, looks adequately homogenous and the creme contained homeopathic amounts of retinoid already so the combination should be stable).

After starting slow on that, I'm now up to using a 0.02% mix two out of three days or so (I tend to forget). No visible effects so far either way, which is according to plan and a good thing at this point.

[niner]

Raza, on 09 September 2012 - 12:55 AM, said:

I mixed up a batch of ~0.01% from this with an ordinary night creme known for its excellent quality/price ratio

That's a great idea.  It sounds like you are not having any problems with the low concentration, but if problems do arise, you can get retinaldehyde without a prescription.  It is somewhere between retinol and retinoic acid in potency.   The benefits of retinoids accrue over years of use.  I see no problem with starting in your twenties, since sun damage started a lot earlier than that.  Daily use of a photostable sunscreen is highly advised with retinoids.

[Hope47]

I use retin a for acne.Everytime i break out,only this cream relieves me.

[Raza]

Back on the main subject of Budget Skincare, I ordered some Niacinamide powder (cheap, but pharmaceutical grade from ebay) which I intend to mix into my night creme as well, starting low and working up towards 4%. The thread here makes it look fairly promising, and it's definitely budget friendly.

niner, on 09 September 2012 - 03:49 AM, said:

Raza, on 09 September 2012 - 12:55 AM, said:

I mixed up a batch of ~0.01% from this with an ordinary night creme known for its excellent quality/price ratio

That's a great idea.  It sounds like you are not having any problems with the low concentration, but if problems do arise, you can get retinaldehyde without a prescription.  It is somewhere between retinol and retinoic acid in potency.   The benefits of retinoids accrue over years of use.  I see no problem with starting in your twenties, since sun damage started a lot earlier than that.  Daily use of a photostable sunscreen is highly advised with retinoids.

Thanks for the suggestion! My skin seems to be coping well, though.

And photostable = mineral sunscreen? I use a chemical one atm because its cheaper and offered higher protection values than the best priced mineral I could find, and I tend to get all my little bits of outdoor sunlight within a single couple-hour period every day, but I was considering switching either way.

Edited by Raza, 09 September 2012 - 12:37 PM.

[Mind]

Not sure what your budget is, but I use Juvess and that's all. One tub usually lasts a few months. Anecdotally, it works good for me, seems to keep my skin looking more youthful. Everyone I know who uses it, also says it is a good cream. It is made by a Long time Longecity member.

[Raza]

At $50 a tub, it's really not budget level. My own mixture adds up to about €5,50 for the same amount.

I'm sure it's a good product though.

[Mind]

Longecity people get a $15 dollar discount on Juvess (anyway, I think that is still in effect) but still not in your price range, I see. Juvess has the same active/useful ingredients as most of the high-end creams that retail for $200 or $300, so in that sense, it is a bargain.

Edited by Mind, 09 September 2012 - 01:24 PM.

[Raza]

I'm not a Longecity Member, as you can see from my forum tag.

And compared to upper price range commercial cosmetics, most everything is a bargain. Getting enthusiastic about that is called a relativity trap.

I apologize for the critical attitude; things that feel like advertising set that off in me. It's a lifesaving reflex in this world, I'm afraid.

Edited by Raza, 09 September 2012 - 02:22 PM.

[niner]

Raza, on 09 September 2012 - 12:29 PM, said:

And photostable = mineral sunscreen? I use a chemical one atm because its cheaper and offered higher protection values than the best priced mineral I could find, and I tend to get all my little bits of outdoor sunlight within a single couple-hour period every day, but I was considering switching either way.

Mineral sunscreens are photostable, but people tend not to like them because they look white.  There are photostable chemical sunscreens, like Mexoryl, found in budget-busting European products from LaRoche Posay, (and others, I think).
Neutrogena has a technology they call "helioplex" (a complex of two less expensive compounds) that is better than most chemical sunscreens, but probably not as good as Mexoryl.  OTOH, it's reasonably priced.    You can also reapply cheap sunscreens every two hours; that is the recommendation from Neutrogena, so they aren't making any formal claims of improved photostability with helioplex, even though it's supposed to be better.  I'm not sure what to make of that.  I just know that reapplying every two hours throughout the day is a non-starter for me.  Does anyone know what LRP says about reapplication intervals?

[Raza]

I'm not worried about whitening, I like being pale. Shininess is a bigger concern, and something I hate about my current sunscreen. I think I'll try a mineral next.

And I can guess what to make of that; if you reapply it every two hours, you need to buy more of it.

[sdxl]

Raza, on 09 September 2012 - 03:30 PM, said:

I'm not worried about whitening, I like being pale. Shininess is a bigger concern, and something I hate about my current sunscreen. I think I'll try a mineral next.

And I can guess what to make of that; if you reapply it every two hours, you need to buy more of it.

What sunscreen are you using?

[Raza]

sdxl, on 09 September 2012 - 04:06 PM, said:

Raza, on 09 September 2012 - 03:30 PM, said:

I'm not worried about whitening, I like being pale. Shininess is a bigger concern, and something I hate about my current sunscreen. I think I'll try a mineral next.

And I can guess what to make of that; if you reapply it every two hours, you need to buy more of it.

What sunscreen are you using?

http://www.vitacost....sunblock-spf-45

[sdxl]

Raza, on 09 September 2012 - 04:24 PM, said:

http://www.vitacost....sunblock-spf-45

You must be kidding me! A sunscreen without any significant UVA-I protection. And you are in Europe. You seriously need to read up on what makes a good sunscreen.

[Raza]

It says it offers UVA and UVB both, which alongside a list of ingredients to avoid is what I know to watch out for. If you've got better information for me, more sharing and less exaggerating its obviousness would be good.

Edited by Raza, 09 September 2012 - 06:12 PM.

[sdxl]

Raza, on 09 September 2012 - 06:10 PM, said:

It says it offers UVA and UVB both, which alongside a list of ingredients to avoid is what I know to watch out for. If you've got better information for me, more sharing and less exaggerating its obviousness would be good.

Don't believe everything you read. If you had searched the forum, you would have come across this old topic and figured out that sunscreen isn't worth buying. Saving money is good, but only if done wisely. Unfortunately sunscreens that are meant for the face are usually more expensive, but they are likely to be more cosmetically elegant. Anyway, you should not skimp on the quality of your sunscreen if you are using a retinoid.