35 replies to this topic

[panhedonic]

I have bought a bottle of Dep-Pro (selegiline sublingual) about 4 months ago, and I was hesitating to try it until now. My goal is mood improvement and maybe more motivation as a bonus.

The (Southern Hemisphere) winter is playing a number on both me and my wife, we both feel kind of down and unmotivated lately. Also no sex for a while. (about a month now)

Today she said to me: "hey, why don't we take that anti-depressant you mentioned, and monitor each other's reactions?" I think this is what I need to take the plunge, so I said yes, and we'll start today with 2 drops sublingual (2mg/day) in the mornings or noon.

We are both in our forties and healthy. I take many supplements and she takes almost none.

So I'll report changes daily...

Edited by brainjuice, 17 June 2012 - 04:30 PM.

[Baten]

Interesting, hope you get the results you're looking forward to.

[panhedonic]

First report:
@ 2mg/day sublingual in the morning. Only one coffee and supplement stack in the stomach (I assume with sublingual that doesn't matter)

day 1: no discernible effect
day 2: a very subtle increase in mood, but nothing I can say for sure it comes from Selegiline. Had trouble sleeping last night (took me maybe half an hour longer than usual, due to an under-stream of visual "low volume" thoughts, but eventually had a good night's sleep with pleasant dreams.

My wife says: that maybe she's a bit more energetic. Doesn't seem too sure.

day 3: took the drops 1.5h ago, feel nothing different.

Something on the "philosophical" end of things: I'm having some contradictory thoughts/feelings: I seem to not have completely bought into my right of affecting my own mood...for some reason taking alcohol or any short-lived tranquilizer or stimulant is totally fine for me, but taking something that would affect my mood more "permanently" makes me feel a little guilty. I think that being happier without taking an anti-depressant makes me feel proud, or stronger, but getting there through a long-lived pharmaceutical is just harder to accept. I suppose it's a narcissism thing and hope the tribulations will go away once I'm properly MAO inhibited

[knutsayang]

Thanks for this. I'm looking forward to further updates. I've heard anecdotal reports that it can take a few days before you feel any benefits. That person was dosing 5mg though.

[panhedonic]

day 4: Just took the droppies. I have to say, the only effect I felt so far is a bit of a lighter sleep, easier to wake up (when wife moves or goes to bathroom), and when I do it feels like I'm totally up, like it won't be easy to sleep again. Yet, soon enough I'm back asleep. Dreams a bit hectic, but nothing too strange.

[Baten]

If you still barely feel it after a week, might be worth a try to up the dose. I always used 5mg tablets sublingually and worked very well. I don't know to how many mg of liquid this translates, though.
If you keep on using it long-term might be wise to cycle it, though. Don't want to be relying on it *too* much.
Effects for me were: instant dopamine increase, which ups my mood and keeps negative thoughts at bay; mild increase of focus.
Motivation-wise I *am* much more motivated than in the past, so my selegiline treatment could have aided in this, but it could just be a state-of-mind kind of thing.

Edited by Baten, 21 June 2012 - 07:21 AM.

[panhedonic]

Day 5: I feel a slight increase in mood and libido (libido was really down) but I can't know for sure if it's the Selegiline, or just a natural mood cycle. I notice it takes me a while longer to fall asleep, but I still have good sleep and wake up rested.

[knutsayang]

Let us know if increasing dose has any more effects after day 7.

[panhedonic]

I'm not going to increase the dose, not yet.
Day 6: I can now say for sure that my sleeping has slightly changed. Like I said before, I tend to wake up in the middle of the night, apparently fully awake, but soon enough I'm back to sleep. I know this is subtle, but it rarely happened before and it's happening everyday now. Other than that, I can't pinpoint any other effects. Mood is slightly better, but can't say it's the substance.

[panhedonic]

Day 10: My sleep has definitely leveled back. I don't wake up during the night at all (just like before starting with Selegiline) And my mood change, if any, is subtle and I can't chalk it up to Selegiline. I'll wait until day 20. If I see no changes, I'll up the dose to 4mg/day and go for two more weeks.

My problem might be a tad of Seasonal Affective Disorder, since I tend to feel markedly worse in the winter. (don't we all, though?)

Edited by brainjuice, 27 June 2012 - 10:49 PM.

[panhedonic]

Day 13: I can't really say that I feel any better. I'm still moody and my libido is as down as it was a month ago. I'll increase the dose to 4mg on Monday and go for two more weeks to see what happens. Any recommendations? Shall I "chase" with a synergistic something?

[protoject]

When I took high dose , the effect was strange. Eventually it felt like I was on a small dose of meth or something. Anyway, my opinion is, maybe it's best to stick to low dose like 1mg and just do that for a very long time, rather than looking for an immediate effect [in fact, maybe you can't get the therapeutic effect you're looking for at all]. I guess it's more of a maintenance thing than anything, based on what "science" we have to say it's neuroprotective and will help us in the long run. Will it really? Who knows. That's just my opinion though... I think it will help in the long run at a low dose. The idea is something like how if you eat nutritious every day it will help you because essentially your body has a different substrate to work with than if you hadn't eaten nutritiously, and the effect builds up over time because the physiology of your body is actually changed. Maybe it's the same with deprenyl... keep taking it every day at a low dose and since the condition of the brain is being effected every day, eventually a beneficial result will occur over time. But hey, what do I know, I'm just a layman.

All I know is that if I currently had a 300mg bottle of liquid deprenyl I would just take 1mg a day for the entire year. I think that's well worth the cost. taking 4mg on the other hand, I don't think it's gonna provide any real benefit.

Edited by protoject, 01 July 2012 - 03:20 AM.

[panhedonic]

Well, what did it do to you in the long-run? did you ever get there? you look young for "long-run", but who knows, maybe you are in your forties and selegiline makes you look like you are eighteen.

Seriously, I kinda need the mood boost really. At the moment my life sucks donkey's ass, but not enough to feel entitled or to think that I need real psychiatric help (which I'm getting anyway, but it's expensive and not helping much)...but bad enough to make me feel a bit lost and off-balance almost constantly. No-one to blame, not even myself, just being forty-something and anhedonic as ]bleep[

[protoject]

yeah i know what it's like bro [not the being 40 part, but being anhedonic and having problems, life sucking, for sure.. most people my age dont have the problems i do]... i'm not 18 but i love the fact that i am youthful-looking [well, kind of, i mean, i have to find a girl who's really attracted to pretty and skinny white males , though i think most girls look for someone more manly].... i haven't tried long term low dose selegiline but when i have the funds im definitely going to take 0.5-1mg of liquid per day for a spin, best with meals because then you get the active metabolite desmethselegiline which if i remember correctly it does better than selegiline itself...

it has taken me a long while to build a small stack that is minimal on [or even, dare i say.. absent of!] side effects while providing some modest improvement, and im happy that i finally found a worthy combo! ... but i am still looking for much more! i hope it works out for you too!!!

[manic_racetam]

Looks like 4mg a day is closer to the optimum dose for someone your age. At least according to this website. See dosage chart below
 selegiline dosage chart by age.JPG   49.24KB   112 downloads

I did a trial of selegiline at 5-10mg a day for a couple months or so at the beginning of 2011. Didn't notice much anti-depressant effect, which was slightly disappointing since I suffer from mild depression. Orally (swallowed), it works solely through MAO-B inhibition in doses up to 10mg a day and at about 15mg + starts being non-selective and begins to inhibit MAO-A as well.

When used for depression the dose is built up slowly and ends up at around 30-40mg a day (you'll want to cross reference this dose, I could be off a bit), at which point it is a non-selective MAO-I, the kind of antidepressant that has food interactions and can throw you into serotonin syndrome if you aren't careful. Definitely don't take those kinds of dosages without Dr. supervision.

It does metabolize into Levo-amphetamine and levo-methamphetamine which are not the same (not as stimulating and different effects... levo-methamphetamine is the active ingredient in vicks inhalers for treating nasal congestion) as the illegal d-enantiomers of the same molecules. This may have something to do with the central stimulating properties of selegiline use, separate from the MAO-B inhibition.

Usually selegiline is touted as an anti-aging supplement at the dosage you're taking it. It allegedly protects the brain from oxidation and helps prevent Parkinson's disease. The recommended anti-aging dose starts very low for someone around 30 years old, and increases with age.

Although it wasn't really effective for my depression it did increase libido and also intensified the effects of caffeine very significantly. Made energy drinks feel almost like cocaine or something.

I'm not familiar with the sublingual dosages and how they correspond with oral doses, but sounds like 2 - 4mg per day should be right around your recommended dose.

I think your approach is a good one. Personally I always have trouble sticking with a steady plan when supplementing. I'm too impulsive and end up stepping up to the maximum recommended dose within a few days.

The added energy boost and increased libido may be all you need to pull yourself out of this slump. Hope it works out for you and hopefully the increase to 4mg per day does it.

Personally I've finally gotten relief from my depression with the help of Stablon (tianeptine sodium). I've been taking it 12.5mg TID for about 8 months now and am quite happy with the results. The adjustment period to the Stablon was not the easiest transition I've gone through but worth it in the end.

Again good luck, hope you're back to your normal self soon.

[protoject]

Something else you might consider is the Emsam patch. Supposedly it is a lot more effective- I thought I saw someone on this forum saying the transdermal delivery is 200x more effective than oral- but only gives approximately the same amount of amphetamine metabolites that your current 4mg dose would give you. Have you guys ever tried *EMSAM? I'm betting it's a harder bang for buck too.

*[EMSAM= selegiline patch]

Edited by protoject, 01 July 2012 - 04:11 PM.

[panhedonic]

Thanks, Manic. I appreciate the thoughtful response. I'll stick to 2mg for two more days or so, then I'll up it to 4 and see what happens. I think you are right re energy boost and libido. I'm not full-blown depressed, so that might be it.

Protoject: the EMSAM are too strong, that's not what I'm looking for. Thanks, though.

BTW, my wife decided to stop taking the drops at day 14. She IS doing better, I can attest to that, since I see her much more focused and productive (she has ongoing, deeply engrained procrastination problems and she seems to be slowly coming out of them) so it's a pity that she decided to stop. Her rationale is "I don't really know what I'm taking, so I'll stop" explaining to her didn't help, so I won't insist. She's her own woman and convincing her of anything is a tough task.

[panhedonic]

OK, day 25, I can report no further changes from my last log. My mood has slightly improved, my libido is still snoozing.... but I can't pin either to Selegiline. Rather, on personal issues that are gradually changing. Hard to say, though.

I just changed my dose to 4mg/day (four drops in the morning) and will report if I notice any changes. Moving back to the Northern Hemisphere in two weeks, and that will likely stir things a bit.

[panhedonic]

After 40 days, and 20 of 4mg/day, this is what I see:
-Improved libido
-improved mood
-Less emotional reaction to negative thoughts.
-Slightly better motivation and energy (which were OK in the first place)

This last thing I really care about, because it allows me to:
1- put those thoughts into question and demistify them. Treat them for what they are: arbitrary negative views on events, and not events themselves. I'm particularly surprised at how many negative stories I have crafted and I act upon.
2- decide whether I want to act on these thoughts or not. Unsurprisingly, many of these thoughts are related to decision making and behavior defining. Also, many are self-effacing or paranoid in nature (assessing reality negatively without clear proof)

Nobody can say whether selegiline caused these changes. It can conceivably be a chain of other events or circumstances (as in moving to another continent, switching hemispheres, etc) but all in all i think causality tracing is not that important. The space for reflection and growth that this drug is allowing I think justifies the whole experiment and I think I have to seize this opportunity.

[panhedonic]

I forgot to take the drops this morning, and today I feel somewhat down. I hesitate to make a causal link, but I wonder if any of you got that? One day off and feeling any difference? anybody? I also forgot to take all my other supplements! When I remembered by noon, I took. ALA/ALCAR/Zinc, but that was it.

All in all this medication is "cleaning up the garbage". It will stop neg thinking, will make my mental landscape better. I wonder if it's making me more creative, or able to see things in an alternative way. I think there's very little of that. And I also think there's very little in the way of enjoyment, beyond the (not at all negligible) pleasure that comes out of not having negative thoughts. But there's certain type of specific enjoyment (which I link with weed, MDMA, nature, love, highly relaxed or immersive moments) is not enhanced.

I call them dry and wet pleasures. I think it's dopamine vs. serotonin. Dopamine being the dry (still joy) and serotonin the wet. Don't get me wrong, I'm not complaining. I'm highly thankful to the substance but I thought I'd make the distinction, since I appreciate the phenomenological considerations.

[panhedonic]

OK, it's been over a month. I feel really good and the effect seems to be steady. I skip once or twice a week to avoid tolerance. Still 4mg/day, sublingual.

There are questions I haven't been able to answer:

--What's the equivalent of what I'm taking to the same amount oral? I read a few threads/articles, but so far doesn't look like I can access that information. I suppose I would have to have a pharmacokinetic test, which is out of bounds for me. I might be inhibiting both MAO A and B unknowingly? oh, well.

--How long do you have to go off this drug to feel the lack of it? in other words, how long after you stop do its effects start waning? is it 1 day? 1 week? more?

Thoughts?
Thanks

[Tubemode]

I don't think question number one has a clear-cut answer. As per your second question, the MAO-B linked inhibition of this substance can last between two to four weeks. It is an irreversible MAO-B inhibitor, so you will have to wait for this time to pass before your normal MAO-B levels are replenished.

[panhedonic]

Thanks. My second question was more geared towards determining whether I can feel a change in mood after not taking it for two days. I know I don't have to mess with other drugs that would put me in danger of high BP before 2-3 weeks

[Tubemode]

Not really. You'll probably begin to feel it after a week or so. Which is why most people dose only once or twice a week.

[BioFreak]

Still taking it?

[noos]

brainjuice can you compare deprenyl to modafinil?

[panhedonic]

I'm still taking it. It's working for me as always, or maybe better. I actually realized that I don't need nearly as many supps as I was taking, a bit haphazardly. I am trimming my regime and since I took out a number of substances, I feel a lot more level-headed, chilled and capable (verbally fluent, etc)

For me, as said before, Selegiline works by blocking negative thoughts, or rather making them easier to spot, and diffuse as arbitrary and harmless, when before it I was drowned in them sometimes collapsing. It is also motivational and stimulating, but not tremendously, as I've always been "high energy" type of guy.

However (and I will start another thread about this) I have too many unanswered questions about selegiline. I'm taking 5mg/day sublingual. I monitor my BP and drink wine, eat cheese. Never had a change in BP, keep my normal/low average. Questions are:
-What's the effect in really long term? (10 years or so)
-What are really my plasma levels, taking it sublingually?
-There's people in this forum that think that selegiline is a bad idea. (can't remember who it was at the moment, but this bloke with a lot of scientific knowledge and quoting a number of studies really thinks that selegiline affects FSH in the long run and is not at all a good idea)(help here?)

I don't want to regret in 5-10 years, and have to devote my life to recovering from a poorly tested Alzheimer drug... I'm even thinking of starting a selegiline users forum (or maybe a mod can start a board, or is that overkill?)

brainjuice can you compare deprenyl to modafinil?

I never took modafinil.

[panhedonic]

Selegiline, no changes at same dose (5mg/day sublingual)

I have a psychological observation that some might appreciate. Selegiline dulls some negative emotions, but not others. Let me explain: I haven't had mental panic or paranoid thoughts, or self-deprecating thoughts as I have had most of my life, with certain frequency. Selegiline seems to clear those out. They are either not there at all, or they don't "bite". However, it doesn't shield me from other negative emotions, such as anger, frustration or deep yearning. Don't get me wrong, I think this is a good thing. Anger is not a problem in my life (i'm a bit irritable, but have gotten better in the last few years, so it's taking its own course) and yearning is bearable.

In concrete, My attention is locked in a person right now. I get furious/sad/happy/horny/tense/relieved depending on how often they contact me or what they say. It's a roller-coaster I know and that's a bit of a red flag, but I decided that the range of emotions is healthy and I'm basically into it and despite this med dulling down some emotional responses, leaves others untouched, which is great. It sucks when i want something too much, but I celebrate feeling like that in any case.

Might be the case that I'm a bit more excited and aroused than I would be without Selegiline, not sure.

[NeuroGeneration]

@panhedonic – I'm wondering if you're still taking deprenyl and have anything to share. Same dosage? Any changes in response to it? Did you ever take 30+ days off and monitor your reactions? Did you get any of your questions answered, e.g., sublingual plasma vs. oral?

 

Thanks!

[panhedonic]

@panhedonic – I'm wondering if you're still taking deprenyl and have anything to share. Same dosage? Any changes in response to it? Did you ever take 30+ days off and monitor your reactions? Did you get any of your questions answered, e.g., sublingual plasma vs. oral?

 

Thanks!

 

Neuro, Sorry it took me a while to reply.

 

Same dosage, same effect. No side-effects. Never tried stopping, to be honest that creeps me a bit...although it's a good idea and I should try.

 

No one ever answered my sublingual vs oral question, there's only that one study... I took my BP every night for a long time and it remains low, so I doubt I'm over the selective MAOI dosage, even at 5mg sublingual daily.

 

Hope that helps. I'm yet to find someone that took it for longer than me (a bit over two years)