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Fluoride Exposure Means Lower IQ?!


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#1 Guinevere

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Posted 20 June 2012 - 04:02 AM


I have been exposed to fluroide as long as I can remember: through drinking water, the daily brushing your teeth, and the yearly dental cleanings that leave me with an impression of sparkly teeth. But I recently read articles that condemned fluoride as a neurotoxin; the studies suggest that fluoride causes brain damage not only in high amounts, but in minute amounts as well (amounts below the EPA's safety level). Do these studies hold any validity?

http://www.prnewswir...-112261459.html
http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC1852689/

Should I stop avoiding the conventional toothpaste from now on because of it?

#2 OpenStrife

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Posted 20 June 2012 - 04:36 AM

Yes Fluoride does make you dumber. It changes you.

There have been studies that if one consumes small amounts of Fluoride constantly over 2 years(through water sources/toothpaste) that ones personality will change drastically. And if it continues another 2 years... it will change drastically again.

Not to mention Fluoride is a toxin to animals... It also is a chemical key to a reaction that calcifies the pineal gland, severely limiting it's functionality. This means less melatonin released,etc..

It overall fucks you up. Weakens your immune system. Causes brain damage. The unnaturally low levels of melatonin interfere with sleep, causing a slew of psychological problems which people go to psychiatrist to seek cures for.


Oh wait...fluoride is put in most USA(unsure about London, you can check with your local city though) city water supplies to 'kill bacteria' and help maintain 'dental health' and lessen dentist visits. Now, it has been proven to have a positive effect on maintaining teeth health... but that by no way means it is safe for your brain. Consider it a 'reason' to put it in water supplies to make people sick, ultimately increasing the bigpharma profits.

Fluoride has actually been banned from water supplies in many many countries who recognize it's severe toxicity.


It doesn't need to be in water/toothpaste to keep teeth healthy...... People just need to take care of their damn teeth.

I have been filtering my water for 4 years now and using Fluoride Free toothpaste, and my teeth are as healthy as can be. My dentist barley does any cleaning when I go because I simply brush my teeth after every meal.

Of course you can't completely avoid fluoridated substances... Fluoride is in everything. Even the dry-tea bags you buy at the store... the tea inside them has fluoride in it because there is a 99% chance it was grown with fluoridated water. Pretty much any drink you can buy at a store has fluoride in it, even 'natural spring water'. All foods that even contain moisture in them has traces of fluoride.

Don't be fooled, this fluoride adds up over time in these small trace amounts, ultimately destroying you internally. Your body cannot get rid of it well.

One popular remmedy to neutralize it, is via the consumption of small amounts(Teaspoon or 2 in water every few weeks, it has no taste) of Borax(sodium borate). Borax, while it is a natural laundry detergent... IS the antidote for fluoride in the human body.

If your water isn't filtered, then you should get it filtered, but be careful with this, clearing too many minerals out of your water and drinking a lot of it can causes mineral imbalances in the body.

Fluoride does not really have an immediate poisoning effect on you unless you ingest a large amount.. but it's a long term effect. Primarily, it's main effect is that you get dumber, lazier, and just overall more stupid and apathetic.

Fun Fact: Hitler would have his soldiers administer high quantities of fluoride to Jews to keep them docile, more apathetic, and less willing to revolt. Population weakening and Control. Nuff said. Just one of the many tactics used by some of the top people in power.



Edit: Another thing, getting fluoride at the dentist every year wont really hurt you... but it wont really make a difference if you take care of your teeth, and it certainly wont do any good for you unless you simply dispise your teeth... not to mention it is STILL a poison regardless of the effect if has on your teeth.

Edited by OpenStrife, 20 June 2012 - 04:40 AM.

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#3 Rior

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Posted 20 June 2012 - 04:44 AM

Yes Fluoride does make you dumber. It changes you.

There have been studies that if one consumes small amounts of Fluoride constantly over 2 years(through water sources/toothpaste) that ones personality will change drastically. And if it continues another 2 years... it will change drastically again.

Not to mention Fluoride is a toxin to animals... It also is a chemical key to a reaction that calcifies the pineal gland, severely limiting it's functionality. This means less melatonin released,etc..

It overall fucks you up. Weakens your immune system. Causes brain damage. The unnaturally low levels of melatonin interfere with sleep, causing a slew of psychological problems which people go to psychiatrist to seek cures for.


Oh wait...fluoride is put in most USA(unsure about London, you can check with your local city though) city water supplies to 'kill bacteria' and help maintain 'dental health' and lessen dentist visits. Now, it has been proven to have a positive effect on maintaining teeth health... but that by no way means it is safe for your brain. Consider it a 'reason' to put it in water supplies to make people sick, ultimately increasing the bigpharma profits.

Fluoride has actually been banned from water supplies in many many countries who recognize it's severe toxicity.


It doesn't need to be in water/toothpaste to keep teeth healthy...... People just need to take care of their damn teeth.

I have been filtering my water for 4 years now and using Fluoride Free toothpaste, and my teeth are as healthy as can be. My dentist barley does any cleaning when I go because I simply brush my teeth after every meal.

Of course you can't completely avoid fluoridated substances... Fluoride is in everything. Even the dry-tea bags you buy at the store... the tea inside them has fluoride in it because there is a 99% chance it was grown with fluoridated water. Pretty much any drink you can buy at a store has fluoride in it, even 'natural spring water'. All foods that even contain moisture in them has traces of fluoride.

Don't be fooled, this fluoride adds up over time in these small trace amounts, ultimately destroying you internally. Your body cannot get rid of it well.

One popular remmedy to neutralize it, is via the consumption of small amounts(Teaspoon or 2 in water every few weeks, it has no taste) of Borax(sodium borate). Borax, while it is a natural laundry detergent... IS the antidote for fluoride in the human body.

If your water isn't filtered, then you should get it filtered, but be careful with this, clearing too many minerals out of your water and drinking a lot of it can causes mineral imbalances in the body.

Fluoride does not really have an immediate poisoning effect on you unless you ingest a large amount.. but it's a long term effect. Primarily, it's main effect is that you get dumber, lazier, and just overall more stupid and apathetic.

Fun Fact: Hitler would have his soldiers administer high quantities of fluoride to Jews to keep them docile, more apathetic, and less willing to revolt. Population weakening and Control. Nuff said. Just one of the many tactics used by some of the top people in power.



Edit: Another thing, getting fluoride at the dentist every year wont really hurt you... but it wont really make a difference if you take care of your teeth, and it certainly wont do any good for you unless you simply dispise your teeth... not to mention it is STILL a poison regardless of the effect if has on your teeth.



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#4 tritium

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Posted 20 June 2012 - 06:44 AM

How can fluoridated toothpaste be harmful if you are sure to spit it out and thuroughly rinse afterwards?

#5 tritium

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Posted 20 June 2012 - 06:51 AM

Even the dry-tea bags you buy at the store... the tea inside them has fluoride in it because there is a 99% chance it was grown with fluoridated water.


By this line of reasoning, you can also say that all fruits, vegatibles, grains, and meat (all foods available) also have fluoride because they were likely grown in or have had the animals fed fluoridated water. The best solution then would probably be to move to a country which doesn't fluoridate water. Maybe this is the reason why we frequently see Asians as a majority of the student body in top ranked universities in the U.S.

Edited by tritium, 20 June 2012 - 06:57 AM.


#6 Baten

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Posted 20 June 2012 - 07:53 AM

There was a similar fluoride thread before. I stopped drinking tap water altogether (or limit it to 1 glass of filtered tap water a day; cook with filtered water) and use fluoride tooth paste.
My teeth are actually whiter than before since I changed tooth paste, ironically.

#7 Guinevere

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Posted 20 June 2012 - 08:18 AM

OpenStrife's post is extremely unsettling. But why has fluoridated water persisted in the US despite evidence of its harmfulness? If I somehow stop most of my fluoride intake now, is it possible to reverse the damage that has been done to my brain? What reliable substitute could I use for tap water? Also, do you recommend that I stop drinking tea (which inherently has fluoride), even though it has antioxidant properties proven to extend healthspan?

Sorry for the many questions, but this thread has made me very, very paranoid.

#8 gamesguru

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Posted 20 June 2012 - 02:49 PM

How can fluoridated toothpaste be harmful if you are sure to spit it out and thuroughly rinse afterwards?

It might be absorbed into the blood sublingually? Plus, you always swallow a trace residue.

I recommend buying a water filter for your house, actually several. Firstly, you should buy a whole house filter, which removes many (hopefully most) chemicals, making your water safe for dishwashing, laundry, watering your garden, showering, and drinking. However, I recommend you also invest in a filter for every sink and shower, since the whole house filters are not really perfect. Using this method, you can effectively eliminate exposure to chemicals through water. (One thing to watch out for is filters which contain BPA, flame retardants, etc...this is counterproductive, because, especially with hot water, the filter itself will re-introduce the very toxins you're trying to cut down on!) Also be sure the filter is actually certified to remove what you want it to remove. Reverse osmosis is proven to remove most fluoride, though don't do it with copper pipes! Though, your skin absorbs toxins from all around you, and the air you breathe is also toxic. Don't let me talk about food.

Edited by dasheenster, 20 June 2012 - 02:55 PM.


#9 niner

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Posted 20 June 2012 - 02:52 PM

OpenStrife's post is extremely unsettling. But why has fluoridated water persisted in the US despite evidence of its harmfulness? If I somehow stop most of my fluoride intake now, is it possible to reverse the damage that has been done to my brain? What reliable substitute could I use for tap water? Also, do you recommend that I stop drinking tea (which inherently has fluoride), even though it has antioxidant properties proven to extend healthspan?

Sorry for the many questions, but this thread has made me very, very paranoid.


OpenStrife's post was designed to make you paranoid. It's just an example of the anti-fluoride cult spreading fear and misinformation, not unlike the PR Newswire story that you linked in the first post. That didn't come from a journalist with standards, it was a paid placement from the "Fluoride Action Network". The abstract of the epidemiology paper that you linked was a lot more illuminating. The high fluoride group that they looked at was drinking water with fluoride levels ten times higher than what you would see in a fluoridated supply in the developed world. Even in this overdosed state, they barely saw an effect, and causality is far from proven. The bigger effects they showed were from Arsenic, not Fluoride. Epidemiology is a difficult science. It's really easy to get things wrong because you fail to control for other factors that are correlated with the factor you're trying to study.

Everything is a poison at a high enough dose, so try to ignore the paranoids when they shriek that "fluoride is a poison!". Of course it is. So are all the vitamins and other supplements we take, if we take too much.
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#10 OpenStrife

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Posted 20 June 2012 - 04:01 PM

How can fluoridated toothpaste be harmful if you are sure to spit it out and thuroughly rinse afterwards?

Sublingual absorbtion. The amount of fluoride in toothpaste in 1 brushing wont harm you. It's the fact that the body cannot process fluoride and that is builds up over time and has damaging effects on biological tissue.

By this line of reasoning, you can also say that all fruits, vegatibles, grains, and meat (all foods available) also have fluoride because they were likely grown in or have had the animals fed fluoridated water. The best solution then would probably be to move to a country which doesn't fluoridate water. Maybe this is the reason why we frequently see Asians as a majority of the student body in top ranked universities in the U.S.


Of course. But it is impossible to avoid fluoride completely, nobody should try to. Though one should take the steps they are able to take. Not to mention Sodium Borate(borax) can be used to neutralize fluoride in the body, it does a suprisingly good job. Bet you didn't know you can actually go get your fluoride levels tested at labs along with testing to scan how calcified your glands are, primarily your pineal gland.

If someone ever tries to tell me that a hardened layer of calcium around an organ/gland doesn't effect it's functioning in any way, then I have lost hope for the human race. There is scientific data out there showing that the more you age, the more calcified your gland becomes... and the calcification reaction cannot take place properly with fluoride. I wish I could provide the chemical reaction off the top of my head, but it's been a while since I've discussed this topic.


OpenStrife's post is extremely unsettling. But why has fluoridated water persisted in the US despite evidence of its harmfulness? If I somehow stop most of my fluoride intake now, is it possible to reverse the damage that has been done to my brain? What reliable substitute could I use for tap water? Also, do you recommend that I stop drinking tea (which inherently has fluoride), even though it has antioxidant properties proven to extend healthspan?

Sorry for the many questions, but this thread has made me very, very paranoid.


Do you really believe the government is all for the safety and healthy of it's citizens? If you've taken a college level history course before you will find that nearly every government in history has been all about control and profit off of it's population. We would be fools to think we are any different. The same political tactics are repeated all throughout history, and if you know history, it is very obvious to see. This is one of the reasons I feel history is one of the most important subjects anyone can learn, because it indirectly teaches you about the reasoning behind politics.



I drink Tea frequently - the kind you brew on your own. A little fluoride here and there isn't going to kill you, but just keep in mind the small amounts build up in your system. If you find your tap water has fluoride in it, look into some kind of filtration system. They can be anywhere from $40-$500 depending on the complexity.

About once a month I have a cup of water mixed in with about 2 TSPs of borax, to take care of any possible fluoride in my system.

There's no need to be paranoid, just take precautions. I personally drink around 3-5 cups of green tea aday.

You can't really 'reverse' brain damage, other than using supplements to help rebuild your brain, practicing mentally healthy activities, meditation, exercise, etc.

A general rule of thumb, after many history classes I decided to take the stance to take anything the government says with a grain of salt. Their reasons for going to war, their reasons for doing this, and that. Though I'm not here to talk about government corruption... i'll leave people to find their own views on the matter.

The word government litterely means:
Govern- To Control
-ment - Mind

OpenStrife's post was designed to make you paranoid. It's just an example of the anti-fluoride cult spreading fear and misinformation, not unlike the PR Newswire story that you linked in the first post. That didn't come from a journalist with standards, it was a paid placement from the "Fluoride Action Network". The abstract of the epidemiology paper that you linked was a lot more illuminating. The high fluoride group that they looked at was drinking water with fluoride levels ten times higher than what you would see in a fluoridated supply in the developed world. Even in this overdosed state, they barely saw an effect, and causality is far from proven. The bigger effects they showed were from Arsenic, not Fluoride. Epidemiology is a difficult science. It's really easy to get things wrong because you fail to control for other factors that are correlated with the factor you're trying to study.

Everything is a poison at a high enough dose, so try to ignore the paranoids when they shriek that "fluoride is a poison!". Of course it is. So are all the vitamins and other supplements we take, if we take too much.


I didn't design it to do anything. I did the topic as my 20 page research paper back when I was in university.

Fluoride IS scary stuff. Yes maybe there are cultish type people who spread fear through the internet about it, but that does not change the fact of it's harm! Just because something causes fear does not mean it is false! Fluoride is a TOXIN. It is used to kill insects, bacteria, and has been proven to cause calcification in the body. If someone dares to tell me thick layers of calcium around a gland don't effect it's functioning then all I can say is .... Especially a gland as important as the pineal gland which regulates sleep cycles and dreaming. Imbalance of Melatonin = poor sleep cycles. Imbalance of DMT from pineal gland during sleep = poor dream regulation which inturn will result in poor processing of unrelease emotions during dreaming. There is a reason why people who don't dream or can't sleep have a slew of emotional problems. Any emotion that has not been resolved during the day gets resolved when you dream... and if you can't dream properly or long enough then these intense emotions build up, causing psychological harm which eventually leads people to psychatrist to fix their problems.

The body has extreme difficulty processing fluoride therefor it can build up for YEARS at a time. I'm not trying to scare you, but the fact is you should be scared, it's not something to play around with.

You can consider it similar to when they thought Arsenic was safe...


And like you said niner, everything is toxic in the right amount. But the body can process most other things, vitamins, recreational drugs, etc.... The body cannot process fluoride! it builds up for YEARS AND YEARS! The more it builds up the more damage it does, making it more able to be classified as a toxin than any possible vitamin that the body can process.

Edited by OpenStrife, 20 June 2012 - 04:12 PM.


#11 abelard lindsay

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Posted 20 June 2012 - 06:50 PM

<p>I haven't used flouridated toothpaste in years and my dentist says my teeth are in good shape. I bought a water distiller a while back. Great investment.

Edited by abelard lindsay, 20 June 2012 - 07:27 PM.

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#12 niner

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Posted 20 June 2012 - 10:51 PM

And like you said niner, everything is toxic in the right amount. But the body can process most other things, vitamins, recreational drugs, etc.... The body cannot process fluoride! it builds up for YEARS AND YEARS! The more it builds up the more damage it does, making it more able to be classified as a toxin than any possible vitamin that the body can process.


Where in the world do you get this? From the Internet? Fluoride is eliminated in the urine. All this fluoride toxicity paranoia and all the alleged negative health effects come from cases of fluoride overdose.

#13 Baten

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Posted 21 June 2012 - 07:13 AM

There was a similar fluoride thread before. I stopped drinking tap water altogether (or limit it to 1 glass of filtered tap water a day; cook with filtered water) and use tooth paste without fluoride.
My teeth are actually whiter than before since I changed tooth paste, ironically.

Wrote something wrong.

If I somehow stop most of my fluoride intake now, is it possible to reverse the damage that has been done to my brain? What reliable substitute could I use for tap water? Also, do you recommend that I stop drinking tea (which inherently has fluoride), even though it has antioxidant properties proven to extend healthspan?

Sorry for the many questions, but this thread has made me very, very paranoid.


I believe fluoride is something that would be harmful if you take adequate amounts during your entire life. Maybe you would suffer the consequences by the time you are 50-60.
If you are still young you should just limit your intake. Filter your water, and if possible drink bottled water from a good source. Drinking only mineral water is probably also bad, though, mineral overload.
Ideal would be a neutral water which you can keep on drinking for the entire day. The kind that is stamped "safe for babies".

Stop drinking tea? No, that would go too far. Just limit fluoride intake in a sane degree: eliminate it from tap water and tooth paste.
By the way if you live in an area that has additional added fluoride in tap water you will need a high grade filter.

#14 X_Danny_X

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Posted 21 June 2012 - 07:50 AM

Fluoride is definitely not good for your body if it is ingested that is for sure. I use Coconut Oil and Oral Wellness product to brush my teeth instead of toothpaste. and a water filter to remove Fluroide as much as possible.

I believe if you do that much, you wont have no problem of Fluoride harming your body.

#15 gamesguru

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Posted 21 June 2012 - 12:30 PM

According to this site, most fluoride is absorbed by the gut into the bloodstream, where within 24 hrs, 49% is excreted in urine thanks to the kidneys and 50% is taken up by hard tissues (teeth, bones, etc), and 1% becomes trapped in soft tissues (including pineal gland) [http://www.fluorided...question17.html]. The questions then becomes, how harmful is fluoride in the levels which accumulate in our bodies? I would have to say not much, but I don't think it's as safe as the FDA thinks (20mg per day for some people, jesus christ!), and I refuse to believe that fluoride is essential (this disputes the claims of an earlier study which claimed fluoride was essential to reproduction: http://jn.nutrition....106/8/1115.long...it remains to show whether nor not one must ingest fluoride for bone/teeth health, since as far as I know, the effects with teeth are predominantly topical, not through the blood).

So does it build up over years, exert profoundly toxic effects even at the nanomolar range? Maybe. It probably takes a few months of fluoride fasting to drastically reduce levels in soft tissues, but to the best of my knowledge there are no studies which specifically address this aspect of fluoride excretion. It might be HIGHLY toxic, but given so many people are exposed to 10-15x as much as me, I'm not too worried about this piece to the puzzle. Btw, according to one doctor who sides with the ADA, those who refrain from fluoridated toothpaste, who drink distilled water, and who are careful about what foods they eat (so as to avoid foods containing fluoridated water), might expect in a few months' time to experience osteoporosis of the bones and teeth. If this is true of us, it must probably also be true of animals and cavemen. But where do the get their fluoride, well we don't know, probably from living around active volcanoes? Based on what little I have to predict, I think fluoride is unnecessary and >50 mg/daily might even cause damage to your gut/bones/teeth. That said, if after dropping fluoride altogether you start having cavities (despite avoiding sugary and acidic foods) and bone thinning, I advise you consider your elimination of fluoride as the culprit for these symptoms.

There is another concerning and profound effect of fluoride (less than 20 mg daily for severe patients) which implicates it in medicine. It seems to agonize and desensitize thyrotropin receptors, which affects cAMP levels, the pituitary/hypothalamus, and basically every other organ. This mechanism might explain the reduction in IQ

#16 Guinevere

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Posted 21 June 2012 - 03:29 PM

^ Wait, whatt? I was under the impression that fluoride caused osteoporosis and the weakening of bones, not the lack thereof.

#17 gamesguru

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Posted 21 June 2012 - 03:40 PM

We don't know for sure, but it appears to thicken bones, although it doesn't make them stronger or denser (http://www.health-sc...e_toxicity.html).

#18 niner

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Posted 21 June 2012 - 06:26 PM

^ Wait, whatt? I was under the impression that fluoride caused osteoporosis and the weakening of bones, not the lack thereof.


Fluoride at extremely high doses (75mg/day) was tried as a treatment for osteoporosis, and found to lead to larger but weaker bones. A later refinement in the dose was shown to be remarkably successful at BOTH increasing bone mineral density and reducing fracture rate substantially. The amount of fluoride in fluoridated water will have NO EFFECT on bone.

Read this if you want; it's from an actual peer reviewed scientific paper, not a quack internet site like most of the anti-fluoride nonsense.

Although sodium fluoride has been available for several years, it is not generally considered a routine therapy for age-related osteoporosis. While sodium fluoride has been shown to increase BMD by stimulating osteoblastics (Farley et al 1983), concerns have been raised regarding strength and quality of new bone formed as well as tolerability. In a 4-year, prospective study of 202 postmenopausal women with osteoporosis and vertebral fractures who were randomized to either 75 mg/day of sodium fluoride or placebo, the incidence of nonvertebral fractures increased 3-fold compared with placebo (Riggs et al 1990). The postulated mechanism for this increase in fracture is overstimulation of bone formation by sodium fluoride, leading to excessive production of weaker bone. In addition, sodium fluoride has been associated with other adverse events such as gastrointestinal disturbances likely as a result of conversion of sodium fluoride to hydrofluoric acid in the stomach, and lower extremity pain possibly due to excessive bone remodeling (Rubin et al 2001).

Due to previously noted adverse effects, systemic sodium fluoride has not gained wide use or acceptance. However, more recent data in which sodium fluoride is given on an intermittent basis and in sustained release form may change this agent's place in therapy. Sustained-release sodium fluoride given on an intermittent basis has been shown to decrease vertebral fractures and increase BMD (Rubin et al 2001). In a randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled trial of 85 postmenopausal women with 1 or more vertebral compression fractures, 25 mg sustained-release sodium fluoride given twice daily in 3, 12-week cycles with a 2-month drug-free period in between was compared with placebo. After a mean follow up of 42 months, BMD in L2–L4 increased by 5.4% compared with placebo and decreased vertebral fractures by 68% (NNT=8). Thus, while intermittent therapy with sustained release sodium fluoride may be a viable treatment option for osteoporosis, it is currently not recommended as a first or second line therapy due to lack of definitive, long-term data.


Guinevere, please don't pay any attention to the anti-fluoride cult on the internet. All they are doing is stressing you out with misinformation and suggesting dubious "cures" (borax, distilled water) that are far more likely to harm you than the low level of fluoride added to water.

And the rest of you, if you can't distinguish the difference between PubMed and all the random anti-fluoride tracts on the net, would you PLEASE do us all a favor and stop posting misinformation? Seriously, I hate to call you guys out and start a flamewar, but some of this stuff is just crap! At least post real scientific data that looks at relevant doses of fluoride, if you can find any that prove your point. And please get real about the amount of fluoride in a bottle of Snapple or a cup of tea. It's often more than you get from fluoridated water. If you think you need distilled water, (along with the loss of important minerals that entails) then you need to lose the tea and tea-based beverages too.
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#19 tritium

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Posted 21 June 2012 - 07:29 PM

Fluoride and children's intelligence: a meta-analysis.

Tang QQ, Du J, Ma HH, Jiang SJ, Zhou XJ.

Source

Department of Pathology, Nanjing University School of Medicine, Nanjing Jinling Hospital, Nanjing, Jiangsu 210002, People's Republic of China.

Abstract

This paper presents a systematic review of the literature concerning fluoride that was carried out to investigate whether fluoride exposure increases the risk of low intelligence quotient (IQ) in China over the past 20 years. MEDLINE, SCI, and CNKI search were organized for all documents published, in English and Chinese, between 1988 and 2008 using the following keywords: fluorosis, fluoride, intelligence, and IQ. Further search was undertaken in the website www.fluorideresearch.org because this is a professional website concerning research on fluoride. Sixteen case-control studies that assessed the development of low IQ in children who had been exposed to fluoride earlier in their life were included in this review. A qualitative review of the studies found a consistent and strong association between the exposure to fluoride and low IQ. The meta-analyses of the case-control studies estimated that the odds ratio of IQ in endemic fluoride areas compared with nonfluoride areas or slight fluoride areas. The summarized weighted mean difference is -4.97 (95%confidence interval [CI] = -5.58 to -4.36; p < 0.01) using a fixed-effect model and -5.03 (95%CI = -6.51 to 3.55; p < 0.01) using a random-effect model, which means that children who live in a fluorosis area have five times higher odds of developing low IQ than those who live in a nonfluorosis area or a slight fluorosis area.

PMID: 18695947 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Edited by tritium, 21 June 2012 - 07:29 PM.


#20 maxwatt

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Posted 21 June 2012 - 07:36 PM

A correlation has been found between very high fluoride intake (in drinking water) and children's IQ, but only at levels high enough to cause dental fluorosis.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....erm=fluoride IQ

The correlation has been shown to be stronger in areas where there is also an iodine deficiency in the diet, or where arsenic is also present in the water.

My conclusion: it is OK to drink fluoridated water until your teeth develop brown or black spots, then stop. And be sure to use iodized salt or otherwise supplement with iodine. And you shouldn't swallow your toothpaste in any case.

#21 niner

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Posted 21 June 2012 - 08:18 PM

which means that children who live in a fluorosis area have five times higher odds of developing low IQ than those who live in a nonfluorosis area or a slight fluorosis area.


Just to be clear, there are a number of areas in the world where the fluoride content of the water is naturally high. These are the fluorosis areas that they're talking about. No one would add fluoride to water that already had too much. In areas where the fluoride content of the water is low, water fluoridation aims to get the concentration up to 0.7 mg/liter (0.7 ppm).

Even in areas of slight fluorosis, which means that the water fluoride concentration is starting to be too high, they still don't see a problem with IQ. It shows up only in the high fluorosis area. Like every single substance known to man, there is an amount that is too much. We obviously don't want too much of anything. However, for a great many things, there is also such a thing as not enough. We don't want that either. If you suffer from black and white thinking, this can be hard to grasp, but that's the way it is. Everything good for us is bad for us at a high enough dose. At the right dose, fluoride is good for us.

#22 tritium

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Posted 22 June 2012 - 02:26 AM

Even in areas of slight fluorosis, which means that the water fluoride concentration is starting to be too high, they still don't see a problem with IQ. It shows up only in the high fluorosis area. Like every single substance known to man, there is an amount that is too much. We obviously don't want too much of anything. However, for a great many things, there is also such a thing as not enough. We don't want that either. If you suffer from black and white thinking, this can be hard to grasp, but that's the way it is. Everything good for us is bad for us at a high enough dose. At the right dose, fluoride is good for us.

If you look at the Materials and Methods section within the full text, you will see a linear decreace in IQ when going from nonfluorosis to slight to severe. It just wasn't mentioned in the abstract. Even if they don't show any difference, there still may be a small harm which may not been possible to detect using the technology available at the time of the study. Sure, there are substances which are harmful taken in large quantities, but some substances have a higher rate of increace in harm as dosage increaces. I would rather have no harm at all, reguardless of how miniscule it may be. Here is another study showing my point:

J Hazard Mater. 2011 Feb 28;186(2-3):1942-6. Epub 2010 Dec 25.
The relationships between low levels of urine fluoride on children's intelligence, dental fluorosis in endemic fluorosis areas in Hulunbuir, Inner Mongolia, China.

Ding Y, YanhuiGao, Sun H, Han H, Wang W, Ji X, Liu X, Sun D.

Source

Chinese Center for Disease Control and Prevention, Harbin Medical University, Harbin 150081, Heilongjiang, China.

Abstract

There has been public concern about children's intellectual performance at high levels of fluoride exposure, but few studies provide data directly to the question of whether low fluoride exposure levels less than 3.0 mg/L in drinking water adversely associated with children's intelligence. In this survey, we investigated the effects of low fluoride exposure on children's intelligence and dental fluorosis. 331 children aged from 7 to 14 were randomly recruited from four sites in Hulunbuir City, China. Intelligence was assessed using Combined Raven Test-The Rural in China while dental fluorosis was diagnosed with Dean's index. Mean value of fluoride in drinking water was 1.31±1.05 mg/L (range 0.24-2.84). Urine fluoride was inversely associated with IQ in the multiple linear regression model when children's age as a covariate variable was taken into account (P<0.0001). Each increase in 1 mg/L of urine fluoride associated with 0.59-point decrease in IQ (P=0.0226). Meanwhile, there was a dose-response relationship between urine fluoride and dental fluorosis (P<0.0001). In conclusion, our study suggested that low levels of fluoride exposure in drinking water had negative effects on children's intelligence and dental health and confirmed the dose-response relationships between urine fluoride and IQ scores as well as dental fluorosis.

PMID: 21237562 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

#23 niner

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Posted 22 June 2012 - 12:16 PM

If you look at the Materials and Methods section within the full text, you will see a linear decreace in IQ when going from nonfluorosis to slight to severe. It just wasn't mentioned in the abstract. Even if they don't show any difference, there still may be a small harm which may not been possible to detect using the technology available at the time of the study. Sure, there are substances which are harmful taken in large quantities, but some substances have a higher rate of increace in harm as dosage increaces. I would rather have no harm at all, reguardless of how miniscule it may be. Here is another study showing my point:


The problem is, they aren't looking at zero fluoride, which for all we know may be bad for intelligence as well. The "nonfluorosis" areas might have fluoride levels that are as high or higher than the level considered optimal (0.7 ppm).

If you want no harm at all, regardless of how miniscule it might be, then you need to look at a broad range of health indicators over the full range of the substance in question. Zero fluoride is worse than the right amount, so to get 'no harm at all', you would actually need a little fluoride.

#24 health_nutty

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Posted 22 June 2012 - 04:15 PM

which means that children who live in a fluorosis area have five times higher odds of developing low IQ than those who live in a nonfluorosis area or a slight fluorosis area.


Just to be clear, there are a number of areas in the world where the fluoride content of the water is naturally high. These are the fluorosis areas that they're talking about. No one would add fluoride to water that already had too much. In areas where the fluoride content of the water is low, water fluoridation aims to get the concentration up to 0.7 mg/liter (0.7 ppm).

Even in areas of slight fluorosis, which means that the water fluoride concentration is starting to be too high, they still don't see a problem with IQ. It shows up only in the high fluorosis area. Like every single substance known to man, there is an amount that is too much. We obviously don't want too much of anything. However, for a great many things, there is also such a thing as not enough. We don't want that either. If you suffer from black and white thinking, this can be hard to grasp, but that's the way it is. Everything good for us is bad for us at a high enough dose. At the right dose, fluoride is good for us.


Yes, this is the case for most minerals. You want an optimal amount, not too high OR too low. Selenium, calcium, strontium, etc, etc.

#25 telight

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Posted 23 June 2012 - 06:45 PM

Can Fluoride be absorbed sublingually? I could not find a reliable source for this.

#26 Baten

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Posted 24 June 2012 - 07:49 AM

Can Fluoride be absorbed sublingually? I could not find a reliable source for this.


Er.. I think nearly anything can be absorbed sublingually ;p
whether the little fluoride in toothpaste gets under your tongue, I wouldn't know; but I'm definitely using fluoride-free toothpaste just to be safe. Works fine.

Edited by Baten, 24 June 2012 - 07:50 AM.

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#27 telight

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Posted 24 June 2012 - 08:01 AM

Can Fluoride be absorbed sublingually? I could not find a reliable source for this.


Er.. I think nearly anything can be absorbed sublingually ;p
whether the little fluoride in toothpaste gets under your tongue, I wouldn't know; but I'm definitely using fluoride-free toothpaste just to be safe. Works fine.


Yes you are right, according to wikipedia factors that affect sublingual absorption include pH, lipid solubility, and molecular weight. From this I would hypothesize that the fluorine ion would be easily absorbed through the sublingual gland.

#28 niner

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Posted 24 June 2012 - 07:56 PM

Can Fluoride be absorbed sublingually? I could not find a reliable source for this.


Er.. I think nearly anything can be absorbed sublingually ;p
whether the little fluoride in toothpaste gets under your tongue, I wouldn't know; but I'm definitely using fluoride-free toothpaste just to be safe. Works fine.


Yes you are right, according to wikipedia factors that affect sublingual absorption include pH, lipid solubility, and molecular weight. From this I would hypothesize that the fluorine ion would be easily absorbed through the sublingual gland.


No, not anything. Most things can not, in fact. Not enough to be pharmacologically significant, at any rate. Fluoride is a charged ion, which is the opposite of hydrophobic. Small hydrophobes tend to be available sublingually, but I wouldn't expect fluoride to be absorbed very effectively by that route.

Baten, if you're avoiding fluoride in all possible forms, aren't you at all concerned about bone or tooth strength? Or do you figure that you get enough fluoride already, from tea or whatever?
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#29 tritium

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Posted 24 June 2012 - 08:09 PM

Baten, if you're avoiding fluoride in all possible forms, aren't you at all concerned about bone or tooth strength? Or do you figure that you get enough fluoride already, from tea or whatever?

Where do you find that Fluoride is beneficial to health at all? The previous study I posted showed that Fluoride levels (at a level exactly the same as my water district in the United States) is harmful. Seems like you feel the need to hold onto your previous knowledge (ego protection?), even when presented conclusive evidense against it.
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#30 niner

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Posted 25 June 2012 - 01:56 AM

Baten, if you're avoiding fluoride in all possible forms, aren't you at all concerned about bone or tooth strength? Or do you figure that you get enough fluoride already, from tea or whatever?

Where do you find that Fluoride is beneficial to health at all? The previous study I posted showed that Fluoride levels (at a level exactly the same as my water district in the United States) is harmful. Seems like you feel the need to hold onto your previous knowledge (ego protection?), even when presented conclusive evidense against it.


All you've shown is harmful effects from high levels of fluoride. If your water is high enough to cause a problem, then you have a very good reason to avoid it. I was just wondering why someone would want to avoid ALL fluoride.




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