27 replies to this topic

[kevinspaceyisunderrated]

For the last 4 years I've suffered from extreme daytime tiredness and brain fog. I've had insomnia for most of my life but even when getting 8-9 hours of sleep I feel terrible most of the day. The only substance that has helped me with my condition is modafinil, but the side-effects were worse than being tired all day so I went off it. What supplements (preferably non-stimulants because I already take caffeine and 1,3 dimethylamylamine) do you recommend for energy and mental clarity. I just started taking piracetam and choline which helps me concentrate, but the feeling is shortlived and my extreme tiredness supersedes the drug's effect an hour after ingestion. I plan on ordering sulbutiamine this week but I'm looking for something I can safely take every day.

[Hebbeh]

http://www.longecity...ne-uridine-dha/

The key being Uridine.  250mg sublingual does it for me.

[synesthesia]

I was having fatigue and brain fog and tried Acetyl-L-Carnitine...  Very impressive response!  I was sold by the end of the first week.  

Feels like the Captain has called down to the boiler room and ordered "all remaining boilers lit"!

500mg with a full glass of water on an empty stomach first thing in the morning gets me through about 3/4 of the day before I notice a sag in energy.  I haven't tried taking it in the afternoon as I'm afraid I might not feel like going to sleep.  

Best of Luck to you.

[kevinspaceyisunderrated]

I found an extremely well reviewed stack online and am going to try purchasing the ingredients in bulk to save money.


{25-50mg DMAA}
{250-750mg Sulbutiamine}
{100-200mg Caffeine Anhydrous}
{500mg-1g Choline CDP}
{250mg Pramiracetam (morning only)}
{750mg - 1.5g Aniracetam (morning only)}
{20mg Noopept (afternoon only)}
{750mg - 1.5g Oxiracetam (afternoon only)}


I currently have 500g of choline bitartrate and 500g of piracetam. Should I spend the extra money and get CDP and pramiracetam/aniracetam/oxiracetam?

Here is an "energy stack" from the same seller:




{25-50mg DMAA}
{25-50mg Hordenine HCL}
{100-200mg Caffeine}
{500-750mg Phenylethylamine}

If you have any other suggestions for improving these stacks please let me know

Edited by kevinspaceyisunderrated, 09 July 2012 - 12:15 AM.

[zrbarnes]

As a follow chronic sleepyhead, I would try Galantamine. You might only need it a few days a week. It has helped me keep my eyelids open without the need for stimulants.

This goes along with the other advice in this thread. Uridine and ALCAR both influence acetylcholine, however, Galantamine has been more effective for me.

Edited by zrbarnes, 11 July 2012 - 01:19 AM.

[protoject]

Thought I'd mention galantamine actually does the exact OPPOSITE for me that zrbarnes just mentioned. It makes me more depressed than usual and I sleep a lot but then the next day I barely can get up.

[platypus]

Rhodiola Rosea. It has a mildly stimulating effect so you'd ned to adjust the doses of the other stimulating things you're taking.

[August59]

Just as a suggestion based on my history with Excessive Daytime Sleepiness. Was having trouble staying awake during the day and was referred to sleep specialist. First thing he wanted to know was if I snored, which I did, but not enough to be considered sleep apnea. Lond story short I have had 4 sleep studies in the last 8 years. The first 2 showed delayed sleep onset and 0 minutes of Stage 3 or 4 sleep. The 3rd one was done while taking 4.5 grams of Xyrem 2 times a night and I got a grand total of 9 minutes of Stage 3 or 4 sleep (so much for the most powerful sleep med in the US). The 4th one tried me on a CPAP machine part of the night, but it did not produce any Stage 3 or 4 sleep. By this time my EDS was really bad, so they did a Multiple Sleep Latency Test (MSLT or Nap Test) and it came back as moderate to severe narcolepsy without cataplexy. I had sleep onset of less than 15 seconds on one of the naps.

This situation has evolved into some severe health issues for me, such as low testosterone, high tryglecerides, possibly hypothyroidism, add symptoms and mild depression and anxiety. My situation is not a normal outcome, but I would strongly suggest finding a good sleep specialist (the best one I found was not even a neurologist) and see if they feel like a sleep study would be benefical. Getting 8-9 hours asleep every night is not doing you any good if you are not getting any Stage 3 or 4 sleep (this also the only time growth hormone is released). Almost everyone that I have known has had a good outcome when diagnosed early.

Good Luck!

[Animal]

August59, on 21 July 2012 - 04:24 AM, said:

Just as a suggestion based on my history with Excessive Daytime Sleepiness. Was having trouble staying awake during the day and was referred to sleep specialist. First thing he wanted to know was if I snored, which I did, but not enough to be considered sleep apnea. Lond story short I have had 4 sleep studies in the last 8 years. The first 2 showed delayed sleep onset and 0 minutes of Stage 3 or 4 sleep. The 3rd one was done while taking 4.5 grams of Xyrem 2 times a night and I got a grand total of 9 minutes of Stage 3 or 4 sleep (so much for the most powerful sleep med in the US). The 4th one tried me on a CPAP machine part of the night, but it did not produce any Stage 3 or 4 sleep. By this time my EDS was really bad, so they did a Multiple Sleep Latency Test (MSLT or Nap Test) and it came back as moderate to severe narcolepsy without cataplexy. I had sleep onset of less than 15 seconds on one of the naps.

This situation has evolved into some severe health issues for me, such as low testosterone, high tryglecerides, possibly hypothyroidism, add symptoms and mild depression and anxiety. My situation is not a normal outcome, but I would strongly suggest finding a good sleep specialist (the best one I found was not even a neurologist) and see if they feel like a sleep study would be benefical. Getting 8-9 hours asleep every night is not doing you any good if you are not getting any Stage 3 or 4 sleep (this also the only time growth hormone is released). Almost everyone that I have known has had a good outcome when diagnosed early.

Good Luck!

This is good advice, I am currently in the process of arranging a sleep study myself.

August59, Xyrem is quite effective at elevating HGH levels, so this might be something to continue taking even if it doesn't directly improve sleep. It could help with some of your other symptoms.

[kevinspaceyisunderrated]

August59, on 21 July 2012 - 04:24 AM, said:

Just as a suggestion based on my history with Excessive Daytime Sleepiness. Was having trouble staying awake during the day and was referred to sleep specialist. First thing he wanted to know was if I snored, which I did, but not enough to be considered sleep apnea. Lond story short I have had 4 sleep studies in the last 8 years. The first 2 showed delayed sleep onset and 0 minutes of Stage 3 or 4 sleep. The 3rd one was done while taking 4.5 grams of Xyrem 2 times a night and I got a grand total of 9 minutes of Stage 3 or 4 sleep (so much for the most powerful sleep med in the US). The 4th one tried me on a CPAP machine part of the night, but it did not produce any Stage 3 or 4 sleep. By this time my EDS was really bad, so they did a Multiple Sleep Latency Test (MSLT or Nap Test) and it came back as moderate to severe narcolepsy without cataplexy. I had sleep onset of less than 15 seconds on one of the naps.

This situation has evolved into some severe health issues for me, such as low testosterone, high tryglecerides, possibly hypothyroidism, add symptoms and mild depression and anxiety. My situation is not a normal outcome, but I would strongly suggest finding a good sleep specialist (the best one I found was not even a neurologist) and see if they feel like a sleep study would be benefical. Getting 8-9 hours asleep every night is not doing you any good if you are not getting any Stage 3 or 4 sleep (this also the only time growth hormone is released). Almost everyone that I have known has had a good outcome when diagnosed early.

Good Luck!

I was diagnosed with very mild sleep apnea (my AHI is around 5 and a normal person is usually 0-4) about 18 months ago. I have learned to sleep on my side with the help of a zzoma boy positioner and my AHI is now in the normal range. I believe my extreme daytime tiredness has to do with my years of drug abuse and several periods of unnatural sleep cycles (going to bed at noon and waking up at 8 p.m.). Thanks for the advice though, I also recommend people with daytime tiredness who snore to go see a sleep specialist.

This morning I took:

150mg caffeine
1g piracetam
1g choline
40mg 1,3 dimethylamylamine
750mg Sulbutiamine
50mg schizandrol-a

I had an amazing workout and am getting a lot of studying done. I've read you should cycle Sulbutiamine but this by far the best supplement I've tried and really want to use it daily for my fatigue. Would it be advantageous to use lower doses (200-300mg) on my 3 non-lifting days or should I just up my dosage of ALCAR and PEA to overcompensate?

Edited by kevinspaceyisunderrated, 21 July 2012 - 01:46 PM.

[Animal]

If you use Sulbutiamine daily you will develop tolerance quite rapidly, especially at those dosages. I would recommend you don't use it at all for those 3 days a week.

[Cephalon]

Better replace the DMAA with something else. It's quite dangerous as discussed in prior threads.

[Animal]

Cephalon, on 21 July 2012 - 04:28 PM, said:

Better replace the DMAA with something else. It's quite dangerous as discussed in prior threads.

Also if you're suffering with low energy levels, taking it daily will just make that worse in the long term.

[kevinspaceyisunderrated]

Morning:
125mg caffeine
1g piracetam
1g choline bitartrate
650mg sulbutiamine
50mg schizandrol-a

Despite not taking any DMAA I had another great workout and have been getting a lot of studying done. I noticed on Thursday and Friday when I took ALCAR and PEA instead of Sulbutiamine I was noticeably tired around 4 hours after each dose. Any ideas of what I could use for increased energy and focus on the days I don't take Sulbutiamine? My pramiracetam, aniracetam, oxiracetam will arrive next week but I doubt they'll give me an energy burst similar to sulbutiamine.

My afternoon dose will be the same as yesterday:
100mg caffeine
25mg noopept
1g choline bitartrate

Edited by kevinspaceyisunderrated, 22 July 2012 - 01:35 PM.

[synesthesia]

Might you not get more stable choline levels from phosphatidylcholine than choline bitartrate?  

I take PPC/PhosChol (polyenylphosphatidylcholine)...  Very concentrated, and less prone to spikes and valleys in blood levels than choline salts.

[kevinspaceyisunderrated]

synesthesia, on 22 July 2012 - 03:41 PM, said:

Might you not get more stable choline levels from phosphatidylcholine than choline bitartrate?  

I take PPC/PhosChol (polyenylphosphatidylcholine)...  Very concentrated, and less prone to spikes and valleys in blood levels than choline salts.

I purchased bitartrate because it was the cheapest choline I could find. I've been reading threads debating whether or not ALCAR is better than several choline sources. Could I take ALCAR every day instead of choline? I'm not sure if it's technically a stimulant, but I noticed increased energy the two days I used it.

[kevinspaceyisunderrated]

5:45 am
100mg caffeine
1000mg ALCAR
500mg Phenylethylamine (PEA)
2g piracetam
2g choline

12:30 pm
100mg caffeine
500mg ALCAR
500mg Phenylethylamine (PEA)
25mg Noopept
1.5g piracetam
2g choline

3:30 pm
1g piracetam
2g choline

I felt fine this morning until around 11:00 when I became incredibly tired and irritable. After my 12:30 dose I still felt horrible so I redosed piracetam and choline a few hours later, but to no avail. I'm used to being mentally drained but today was different; I felt really stupid and had trouble comprising simple sentences.Obvious I attribute this to the lack of sulbutiamine, which I took Saturday and Sunday. Hopefully my oxiracetam, aniracetam, pramiracetam will arrive soon so I'll have something to give me a mental edge on my non workout/sulbutiamine days. I'll keep you guys posted.

[seekit]

Nice thread.  Thanks

Sent from my SPH-D710 using Tapatalk

[Pirate]

How is your stack/daytime tiredness now?

[kevinspaceyisunderrated]

Pirate, on 13 October 2012 - 01:17 AM, said:

How is your stack/daytime tiredness now?

It's better (but still noticeable) because I'm working later in the day and I get my best sleep between 5 and 8am. Unfortunately I start an earlier shift soon and will be exhausted every day for the next couple months. I can't wait for daylight savings.

[Galaxyshock]

Phenylethylamine is useless without the hordenine.

But instead I would include Rhodiola in your stack. It has long acting benefits in energy, mood and concentration.

[Pirate]

kevinspaceyisunderrated, on 23 July 2012 - 09:10 PM, said:

5:45 am
100mg caffeine
1000mg ALCAR
500mg Phenylethylamine (PEA)
2g piracetam
2g choline

12:30 pm
100mg caffeine
500mg ALCAR
500mg Phenylethylamine (PEA)
25mg Noopept
1.5g piracetam
2g choline

3:30 pm
1g piracetam
2g choline

That's a lot of choline per day. 6 grams plus 1.5 grams of Alcar.

Are you still taking as much? How is it going for you.

[redline2097]

Half dose of Iforce Dexaprine V2 and you fly next 12 hours.

[kevinspaceyisunderrated]

Pirate, on 22 October 2012 - 05:34 AM, said:

kevinspaceyisunderrated, on 23 July 2012 - 09:10 PM, said:

That's a lot of choline per day. 6 grams plus 1.5 grams of Alcar.

Are you still taking as much? How is it going for you.

I'm dropped the PEA, ALCAR, and Noopept months ago. I only take sulbutiamine when working overtime in the wee hours of the morning, which is rare these days.

I now take around 4g of piracetam, 7 choline bitartrate, and 250mg of aniracetam in the morning. Another 2g of piracetam and 4g of bitartrate in the afternoon (sometimes I add aniracteam) with caffeine, L-theanine, and pyritinol throughout the day for my fatigue. I'm doing much better, but still noticeably tired.

Edited by kevinspaceyisunderrated, 23 October 2012 - 12:17 AM.

[Pirate]

How did you come to the decision to take so much choline?

[kevinspaceyisunderrated]

Pirate, on 23 October 2012 - 12:39 AM, said:

How did you come to the decision to take so much choline?

http://www.longecity...-48-grams-dose/

It seems to help my cognitive abilities but as I previously stated my exhaustion makes it hard to focus on the most basic tasks.

[hippocampus]

You should try a gluten-free diet for a month (but it really should be completely gluten-free) - gluten makes some people drowsy and sleepy. But you should not take (a lot of) supplements during "the experiment", since you could confuse the effects of supps with gluten-free diet.
Also, too much choline may make you depressed - maybe not at the beginning, it could happen after few months. I have noticed this, so you should be careful.
You could also try melatonin for sleeping (about 300 - 600 mcg) - it will make you drowsy if you take too much, but if you have trouble sleeping it could help you. You can also try f.lux, a program that blocks blue light from monitor, because it confuses you circardian rhytms. And you can try using that blue lights for treating depression (phototherapy or what it is called) for waking up in the morning - it helps regulating circadian rhytms.
If you have been on strong antibiotics anytime, especially in the last year, you may also try some good probiotics (for a month or so), because gut microbiota is also connected with chronic fatigue syndrome.

[medievil]

Im trying to come up with a regime for extremely bad fatigue when im off stimulants, breaks dont help, it started 2 weeks after my last intake on stims (on a test cycle) and it randomly started again after taking crazy (was gone for a year where i also took stims) indicating stim withdrawal isnt the problem id like to try the following to be able to functions on days without stimulants, as i live a half life, half the week awake, then run out and then sleep half the week, i cant afford enough stimulants (dexedrine for example is 5 a pill) so tought about this:

Selegiline
Modafinil
Galantamine
Ephedrine/DMAA
Reboxetine with a tingy for the autoreceptor

Prokarin (increase histamine to increase orexin A activity)
Betahistine
Other histaminergics? offcourse i wont take everything togheter, (i would in the past wich would prob make everything worse)

Who experienced relief with galantamine?

Gaba antagonists (any that not antagonize the one for anxiety, seizures are dose dependent)
Strychine or something like that, offcourse if i overdo im death.

Animal, on 21 July 2012 - 04:33 PM, said:

Cephalon, on 21 July 2012 - 04:28 PM, said:

Better replace the DMAA with something else. It's quite dangerous as discussed in prior threads.

Also if you're suffering with low energy levels, taking it daily will just make that worse in the long term.

The case with stims so i want to cycle with something else.

Also amantadine works for fatigue ive read.

Simple things like pseudoephedrine dont help at all besides, also without stimulant tolerance but its pretty weak.

Right now only desoxy with mdpv can wake me up, no matter what amp or ritalin dose doesnt change the extreme exhaustion at all, offcourse a effect of tolerance due to the potency of those compounds wich will take ages to reverse.

Edited by medievil, 14 February 2013 - 10:51 PM.