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Neuro-chemistry of post-ejaculatory feeling/state?

orgasm post-orgasm

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#1 panhedonic

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Posted 07 August 2012 - 06:19 AM


If I have sex after a few weeks of holding, and the coitus went on for a long time, then after I ejaculate I enter some sort of a long trance which is deeply enjoyable and I presume is what you would feel if taking an opiate (which I never have) but it's a half-sleep sea of pleasure, densely populated with highly rich images (visual and otherwise) and mental constructs of psychedelic nature. (btw, this transe is very sensitive to noise, and if I wake up from it it's hard to come back to it)

Does anybody know what's causing this? what's the chemistry/pathway? Oxytocin/prolactin? peptides? blahbluhbleh? pfffff?
Could it be reproduced, even for the odd experiment? (other than taking opiates, which is something I'd rather avoid for fear of addiction/tolerance)

Sorry if the question is a bit vague... I wondered about this for years.

#2 OpenStrife

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Posted 07 August 2012 - 02:07 PM

Well it's a sort of high caused by neurotransmitters being flooded in the brain.... including the hormone prolactin which can keep your energy levels down for hours-days afterwards.

This high also has a downside of the brain being not so energized for a few days and it needing time to recover again. If hormones like prolactin weren't released to keep the brains energy levels/excitement down...... a person could be endlessly horny, and if they kept orgasming, they would die. Our body works by trying to prevent us from getting horny over and over... doesn't mean back to back sex isn't possible... just concurrent sex attempts will always have less energy than the previous one. Often people may think this is simply from ATP depletion, but it is mainly from the suppression hormones that are released.

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#3 sparkk51

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Posted 07 August 2012 - 08:15 PM

Am I the only person who consistently has an unfocused and sensitive day after having an orgasm the day before? Its very distruptive and makes me dread sex.

Edited by sparkk51, 07 August 2012 - 08:16 PM.

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#4 OpenStrife

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Posted 08 August 2012 - 03:07 AM

Am I the only person who consistently has an unfocused and sensitive day after having an orgasm the day before? Its very distruptive and makes me dread sex.



Nope that's exactly what happens to me... but it's more of a lack of focus power and just generally drained of energy. Can't fully perform tough mental tasks like I normally should be able to. Sometimes it can take me 2-3 days to recover

#5 middpanther88

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Posted 08 August 2012 - 03:17 AM

Oxytocin?

#6 sparkk51

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Posted 08 August 2012 - 03:28 AM

Am I the only person who consistently has an unfocused and sensitive day after having an orgasm the day before? Its very distruptive and makes me dread sex.



Nope that's exactly what happens to me... but it's more of a lack of focus power and just generally drained of energy. Can't fully perform tough mental tasks like I normally should be able to. Sometimes it can take me 2-3 days to recover


Suddenly, I feel less disturbed by it. Do you know an alleviation?

#7 Baten

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Posted 08 August 2012 - 06:08 AM

Am I the only person who consistently has an unfocused and sensitive day after having an orgasm the day before? Its very distruptive and makes me dread sex.

Suddenly, I feel less disturbed by it. Do you know an alleviation?

Orgasm every day.
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#8 panhedonic

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Posted 08 August 2012 - 07:09 AM

This is f***ing interesting. (pun) I had that for over fifteen YEARS, and I'm in my forties now. I would ejaculate, then feel like shit for the whole next day. Mostly depressed, but also guilty, i don't know... a mix of shitty feelings. I don't know about unfocused, but lately I've CHANGED (sigh of relief) and I realized that most of those feelings were created by my mind (as opposed to by my brain) so placebo, nocebo, whatever. I know now that a huge part of this negativity is a response to some retentive idea about semen. A mix of some screwed way of understanding taoism and guilt for having masturbated since I was 9 (which I know now that it's not all that rare an age to start wheenie-fiddling)

So I typically ejaculate once a month or so (have sex much more often, but I hold the swimmies in), but after my latest "epiphany" I'm letting myself go a little bit more and I feel much more relaxed about the whole thing. I wonder if now I would feel shitty after coming. And *I don't think I will*. :)
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#9 CIMN

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Posted 08 August 2012 - 08:12 AM

it could be a vitamins mineral depletion. a multi and a gatorade is usually a quick fix,

the inhibitory hormones and chemicals is a interesting hypothesis, prolactin dopamine choline unbalance is also part of that.
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#10 OpenStrife

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Posted 08 August 2012 - 10:28 AM

Am I the only person who consistently has an unfocused and sensitive day after having an orgasm the day before? Its very distruptive and makes me dread sex.



Nope that's exactly what happens to me... but it's more of a lack of focus power and just generally drained of energy. Can't fully perform tough mental tasks like I normally should be able to. Sometimes it can take me 2-3 days to recover


Suddenly, I feel less disturbed by it. Do you know an alleviation?



Yes, simply stop.

Though it's harder said than done. Me trying to stop has realized that I am addicted to masturbating/sex. Like I get to the point of being so horny that my logic and rationale gets screwed up and I end up always finding an excuse to get off. Then I end up feeling like shit. The post-days I am extremely unproductive, etc.

I did manage to stop for a few weeks, and I can tell you, I had never felt better in my life. I just go exercise whenever I get horny, and the urges soon fade away over time and lose their power, and I maintain all my energy levels and sex drive.

#11 Junk Master

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Posted 08 August 2012 - 04:01 PM

You could take Ropinirole to suppress Prolactin release. It has some promising neuroprotective effects as well.

#12 sparkk51

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Posted 08 August 2012 - 07:38 PM

Am I the only person who consistently has an unfocused and sensitive day after having an orgasm the day before? Its very distruptive and makes me dread sex.



Nope that's exactly what happens to me... but it's more of a lack of focus power and just generally drained of energy. Can't fully perform tough mental tasks like I normally should be able to. Sometimes it can take me 2-3 days to recover


Suddenly, I feel less disturbed by it. Do you know an alleviation?



Yes, simply stop.

Though it's harder said than done. Me trying to stop has realized that I am addicted to masturbating/sex. Like I get to the point of being so horny that my logic and rationale gets screwed up and I end up always finding an excuse to get off. Then I end up feeling like shit. The post-days I am extremely unproductive, etc.

I did manage to stop for a few weeks, and I can tell you, I had never felt better in my life. I just go exercise whenever I get horny, and the urges soon fade away over time and lose their power, and I maintain all my energy levels and sex drive.


Oh my god, I cant believe I am reading this. I could say thees exact same words and my nose wouldn't grow, so to speak. I've also had periods of "abstinence" where I feel very consistent. I also have lots of trouble preventing myself from masturbating after a short while (3-4 days).

Something is telling me that not only is the dopamine negating effect of prolactin a problem but down regulation of certain receptors, as well, after the initial high,. Perhaps, some sort of short-term antagonist after the orgasm could help lessen the effect? Another idea is the use of memantine, although, I don't know if one would take it before or after an orgasm.

Edited by sparkk51, 08 August 2012 - 07:39 PM.

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#13 panhedonic

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Posted 08 August 2012 - 09:37 PM

To recap: post ejaculatory for me has two interesting states, one deeply positive, transy-opiate-like, lasting a few min to an hour or so, and then a shitty one, depleted type-feeling that can last anywhere from a few hours to a couple of days.

This is getting very interesting.

Sparkk, why Memantine?
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#14 sparkk51

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Posted 09 August 2012 - 08:10 PM

To recap: post ejaculatory for me has two interesting states, one deeply positive, transy-opiate-like, lasting a few min to an hour or so, and then a shitty one, depleted type-feeling that can last anywhere from a few hours to a couple of days.

This is getting very interesting.

Sparkk, why Memantine?


Well, first off, let me say I'm an amateur at understanding nootropics. Therefore, what I do know is in generalities and not the core mechanism of a nootropic.

Memantine is commonly used as a tolerance inhibitor mainly for chronic amphetamine use. Basically, the drug will indirectly slow down the brain's negative feedback response to elevated dopamine levels, allowing the user to feel its desired effects for a longer period of time. With this in mind, perhaps memantine could also prevent the dopamine (and, possibly, other neurotransmitter) tolerance associated with a "post-ejaculatory" state.

Do note that memantine needs to be administered over the course of a few days in order for its beneficial effects to be felt.

#15 Baten

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Posted 09 August 2012 - 08:54 PM

I remember a time when I was abstinent a whole week when I was feeling down due to various reasons. Didn't feel like it at all.
But consistently feeling worse after orgasm? Can't say I know the feeling. Interesting how many here do know the feeling, though.

#16 mattdannald

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Posted 10 August 2012 - 12:23 AM

Members on here who feel like crap after having an orgasm are not alone. A progressive doctor from the Netherlands named Dr. Waldinger has treated patients with this malady and has called it Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome or POIS. THere's a website on the Naked Scientists forums with almost 2 million views that talks about supplements/and or medication that has helped a lot of people reduce their symptomshttp://www.thenakeds...hp?topic=6576.0 .
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#17 sparkk51

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Posted 10 August 2012 - 12:50 AM

Members on here who feel like crap after having an orgasm are not alone. A progressive doctor from the Netherlands named Dr. Waldinger has treated patients with this malady and has called it Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome or POIS. THere's a website on the Naked Scientists forums with almost 2 million views that talks about supplements/and or medication that has helped a lot of people reduce their symptomshttp://www.thenakeds...hp?topic=6576.0 .


According to this research, Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome is found in middle aged men. Im 18... Ive had this issue for as long as I can remember masturbating. Could this be caused by low testosterone?

#18 panhedonic

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Posted 10 August 2012 - 01:22 AM

Matt, that's tremendously interesting. Thanks a lot for that link. However, I have to say that a thread with 707 pages (!!) seems like a bitch to read... I think that merits a forum of its own. Would be nice to have the conclusions and some sort of a summary. I am reading a few pages, but I don't seem to find any conclusions really. Also Dr. Waldinger seems to have gone AWOL.

I'll keep on reading, though. Thanks!

#19 electricmonk500

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Posted 10 August 2012 - 05:01 PM

I have some personal theories about the effects of orgasm on the brain and I would like to see if anyone knows of any actual studies or other evidence about the neurochemistry of orgasm that might allow me to be better informed on the subject. So what follows is just my own totally unscientifically supported theory.

I have begun to think that orgasm has a kind of "imprinting" effect. I use the word "imprinting" for lack of a better term, but basically I use it to invoke the similarities I feel it has to imprinting in animals such as many birds (such as ducks), who, in a short period of time after they are born will imprint upon the closest moving thing that they see, which is usually their mother, but if a human or a dog or a puppet or whatever else happens to be present when they first open their eyes, they will imprint upon that person/animal/thing instead and follow it around as though it were a mother bird. I think orgasm achieves a similar effect, only it serves to attach a male to a female (and vice versa) in species which have some predisposition to monogamous pair bonding. So, when you orgasm and look in your lover's face, you "imprint" on them and are thus more likely to remember their face, other characteristics, your feelings towards them etc etc, but I think that this imprinting is not actually limited to the characteristics of person you happen to be copulating with, but also to one's own feelings at the time, other factors about the environment and also whatever you happen to do immediately afterwards. So, thus, because a high proportion of us were conditioned to feel shame in relation to masturbation when we started off at a relatively young age (or at the very least were conditioned to hide and keep secret this behavior) many of us hold over some of these feelings of shame and they are called up back to the present day when one orgasms as a sort of subconscious feeling of shame/irritability/discontent/whatever that we "imprinted" upon when we were younger. In addition, I have found that this "imprinting" doesn't really need to have any particular object, and, like ducklings, one will "imprint" onto any behavior or feeling that one does either during or immediately following orgasm. So I have been making an effort to intentionally initiate behaviors that I want to reinforce immediately following orgasm, instead of just lazily lying around enjoying it or whatever. For instance, I tried meditating for something like 20-30 minutes immediately after orgasm and the next time I orgasmed (which was at least 3-4 days later) I immediately recalled having meditated the previous time and felt a strong desire to do the same thing. I have also tried doing things such as immediately reading a good book, or doing some strenuous exercise, both with similar results.

So, in short, I have come to think that those who have negative feelings after orgasm are actually just not being very careful of their behaviors/mental state immediately following orgasm and are haphazardly reinforcing ("imprinting") whatever random behaviors they happen to do afterwards, which can lead to strange feelings/impulses/recollection of childhood shame etc. However, even when I do well at trying to reinforce what I have deemed useful behaviors, I still feel that I experience some small mental deficits and lethargy in the day following orgasm, so perhaps either this theory does not totally explain such negative feelings/lethargy (very likely) or maybe it just takes a very long time of reinforcing such behaviors before one can eliminate the negative/random associations one has previously been reinforcing unknowingly for years.

I would appreciate it if anybody had any links to scientific studies (or other information about the post-orgasm state), comments or personal experiences that anyone might have that either contradict or support what I have just described.

#20 panhedonic

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Posted 11 August 2012 - 06:05 AM

Electricmonk, that is very interesting and not too far fetched. I can related to that. Definitely the shame and the imprinting. Although I'm not totally sure that the whole deal is completely psychological and not physiological at all. i think it's a combination, and the combination ends up reinforcing each side.

Look at those people who have "POIS" (post-orgasmic illness syndrome) and the symptoms they claim: diarrhea, lower back pain, nausea, very strong headaches, colds, etc. It would be a VERY strong psychosomatic mechanism. I'm not saying it can't happen, but there might be a physiological predisposition as well.

I think you'll find a hard time confirming or denying your hypothesis, since it lies at the core of an epistemological debate. Proof of disproof of psychological mechanisms are hard to come by, as you might know.

I myself am finding preliminary evidence of your hypothesis, but I can only speak for myself, and this moment. Things might change, although I feel like after realizing a few things (after over 15 years of keeping ejaculation to a seldom event) I'm beginning to feel much better about it, and still feel very energized. You might say it's psychological, but I also have started taking a lot of supplements, so you can also argue that I'm better nourished now and that's why I don't feel bad.

Honestly, I don't think the real origin matters that much. I'd suggest you to find your own remedies and try to put them in place. (which I think you are already doing)

In my case it might be the selegiline, the zinc, the BCAA's, the ginger... who the hell knows. If you follow my posts you might realize that I've been through a phase of very low libido, which fortunately came back about a month ago, and after a couple of "enquiries" i stumbled upon a few strong notions that led me to *feel* that the whole sperm retentiveness/taoism paradigm might be just wrong (or there for the wrong reasons)

I'm still in the middle of this discovery and I plan to try and understand it as best as possible. I'll be happy to discuss your situation if you want.

#21 electricmonk500

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Posted 12 August 2012 - 05:51 AM

I agree with most of what you're saying, brainjuice, but I didn't at all mean to imply that post-ejaculatory "imprinting" was psychosomatic, actually quite the opposite, that what I'm calling "imprinting" is probably based on some physiological mechanism. I do not think that it is controversial to claim that the neurochemistry of orgasm induces pair-bonding (which is thought to occur primarily, at least in my understanding, via the release of oxytocin). The more controversial part of my statement would be that the same physiological mechanism that can induce pair-bonding and other feelings of attachment with a mate, actually still operates in the absence of a mate, such as orgasm from masturbation, and can sort of "pair-bond" (or "imprint") a person to certain emotions, thoughts, aspects of the environment, behaviors etc. and that the object of such "pair-bonding" would be quite random and outside one's control unless one made a very deliberate effort to avoid conditioning stimuli (such as by meditating right after orgasm). But now I'm feeling that I may just be belaboring my original point here, I think you understand the substance of my argument, I just meant to clarify that I don't think it would be accurate to call it psychosomatic. Also, I didn't mean to discount whatever might be related to "POIS", I just don't have any experience with those kind of symptoms myself, like I said, I just feel a slight increase in lethargy and slight decrease in mental focus the following day, and it's not really enough to call it a problem.

Also, as I re-read this post, I guess I've sort of answered my own question, I guess I just need to do more research on oxytocin to see if orgasmic "imprinting" on something other than a mate has ever been observed by scientists.

Edited by electricmonk500, 12 August 2012 - 05:54 AM.


#22 panhedonic

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Posted 12 August 2012 - 07:05 AM

ElectricMonk, well... in a way you are between both worlds. When something occurs through a perception, the perception of another person, or the experience of certain feelings (shame, etc) you can argue that the origin of this is psychological. Like any other psychological event, there is, too, an underlying physiological disposition or structure (this is fairly obvious, there would be no psyche without brain). There is no clear line between the psyche and the brain, really. I think this is an overarching, interesting debate. Psychosomatic means: "oforpertainingtoaphysicaldisorderthatiscausedbyor notablyinfluencedbyemotionalfactors".

In your tale maybe "physical disorder" doesn't apply. (because your symptoms are mostly feelings) But in that case, your whole issue would be "psychological" which is very far from saying that it's not a real or valid malaise. Experiences are experiences and at the end of the day it's ALL that matters. (or tell me about a world without human experience) And when you start trying to trace their "genesis", their origins, you run into a lot of epistemological, philosophical debates that are no exact science and will probably just leave you with more questions than answers.

As an analogy: serotonin in certain context brings a feeling of contentedness and relaxation.... dopamine, one of excitement, anticipation and enthusiasm; adrenalin of stress or fear, etc.... are those psychological or physiological events? It depends on your frame of reference, but essentially they are both

Your notion of imprinting, by the same token belong to both frames of reference.

Edited by brainjuice, 12 August 2012 - 07:06 AM.


#23 electricmonk500

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Posted 12 August 2012 - 04:17 PM

Ok, I see what you meant now by psychosomatic, that makes sense. Thanks for explaining it.

#24 panhedonic

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Posted 16 May 2015 - 09:08 AM

Bump.

Anybody with this experience?

#25 Intropersona

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Posted 03 April 2017 - 01:25 PM

Bump.

Anybody with this experience?

 

Yes, I read most of the tread and agree with what everyone said as I come from an attentive/reflective buddhist type background and understand the feeling of guilt on top of the malaise POIS induces.

 

You seemed to skip over someone mentioning dopamine agonists. It is really a shame that the only way we know how to reduce prolactin is a dopamine agonist because that shit will fuck you up, although, I am not sure of micro-doses of the stuff the day of orgasm. I have been dosing maca-puriens (L-dopa) after and it helps a tiny bit. Wondering whether I should try dope agonist, can't put up with the post-cum blues anymore.



#26 PeaceAndProsperity

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Posted 03 April 2017 - 03:59 PM

Here's what happens. Dht decreases, shbg increases, estrogen increases (but relative to shbg), androgen receptors become insensitive, prolactin increases, oxytocin increases, dopamine decreases or dopamine receptors become desensitized probably relevant to prolactin, serotonin increases.

 

 



#27 Intropersona

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Posted 06 April 2017 - 01:41 AM

Here's what happens. Dht decreases, shbg increases, estrogen increases (but relative to shbg), androgen receptors become insensitive, prolactin increases, oxytocin increases, dopamine decreases or dopamine receptors become desensitized probably relevant to prolactin, serotonin increases.

 

And so are we wrong in assuming the depression/lethargy is stemming from impaired dopamine transmission? Could it be something else?



#28 PeaceAndProsperity

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Posted 06 April 2017 - 11:11 AM

And so are we wrong in assuming the depression/lethargy is stemming from impaired dopamine transmission? Could it be something else?

Multifactorial. I don't think amphetamine or any other dopamine stimulant will resolve the symptoms.
 



#29 gamesguru

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Posted 06 April 2017 - 12:55 PM

when i first open this thread I'm expecting complaints about lethargy and apathy, but I guess that's only with frequent masturbation. The oxytocin release from actual coitus is much greater and not to be underestimated as a contributor.

as for the idea that amphetamine would help. no. when you have low receptor counts and flood with even more NT, it's like trying to fix a traffic jam. what would you do, send more cars or build more lanes? duh.. build the lanes

so an uptake promoter, resperine, or a TH inhibitor would do well here.. I think so
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#30 PeaceAndProsperity

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Posted 06 April 2017 - 01:52 PM

Actually, amphetamine does work even if you have low receptor counts, that's why trenbolone (a dopamine d2 agonist and anabolic) users, mind you that trenbolone is is potentially neurotoxic to dopamine receptors, can still find use in amphetamine for motivation and such (look at Rich Piana). In fact most bodybuilders who take "steroids" also take stimulants.

 

The point is that the issue is not only dopamine, or so you'd think.

 

I don't know about you guys but personally when I masturbate I feel "feminine," I feel like I've lost all sense of my masculinity, like I've castrated myself and injected large amounts of estrogen. My prostate swells (I can feel it because I feel a need to take a shit) and my nipples tend to get swollen or sensitive.

So if you feel like I do, like you've lost your masculinity, it's a hormonal issue and not an issue of dopamine.

 

 







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