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Extreme Nootropics


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#1 bernard

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 12:39 AM


Hey guys. I'm looking to find out what are the most powerful nootropics ever created. Side effects and money is not an issue. Honestly I'm getting bored by people creating stacks of dozens and dozens of supplements and items for mediocre effect at best. I'm looking to find out what's a real nootropic out there. A real life NZT-48. And I have to say I'm pretty sure there has to be one. Don't tell me that you think that experiments weren't made on human cognition during the WWII. I'm pretty sure there are extreme nootropics out there reserved for the elite.

I have created a list here of mediocre compounds but that's all I could find.

Hydergine + Aniracetam + Pramiracetam + Noopept synergy
CDP-Choline + Alpha GPC + Centrophenoxine synergy
Galantamine to keep ACh receptors sensitized
Cerebrolysine (to optimize neural growth)
Memantine
Desmopressin
Lion's Mane Mushroom (to improve myelination)
Modafinil (for wakefulness and motivation without the detrimental effects of amphetamines on the hippocampus)
Vinpocitine (to increase the blood flow to the brain)
LSD to upregulate 5-ht2a receptors
Methylene Blue

Some of these will be dropped. However I chose to list here only serious stacks that lead to dramatic improvements in cognition and memory. Please share your thoughts.

#2 khemix

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 04:11 AM

Modafinil is the closest thing to a wonder drug. It's stimulating and neuroprotective. Adderall is the best and strongest but comes with the sides of any amphetamine. You got too many cholinergics, all you need is Galantamine - it is the most powerful one of them all and has effects on nicotonic receptors. Memantine is not a nootropic, it in fact impairs cognition, and is best used as an anti-tolerance agent. If you have modafinil or adderall, you don't really need the hydregine or selegine.

Of the racetams, I think aniracetam is the best, but it's half life is only 2 hours. Pramiracetam is strong, but I think overrated, and too much can raise NO levels which kill neurons. Oxiracetam is very good too, the only racetam to give me noticable cognitive effects when I was measuring things. Bacopa works but can be sedating.

Forskolin is very potent but cAMP can works both ways... improving and impairing cognitive function - but you'll feel it when you take it. Idebenone is also good but the effects fade after a day or two of continous use.
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#3 medievil

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 04:35 AM

Cerebrolysin with methylene blue and amphetamine must push the brain to extreme limits, id even say it would be healthier then just amp as the other 2 are neuroprotective.

If i had the money id try it, its clear that we all are far from getting the max out of brain like that guy that exactly remembers all details of everyday of he's past life.

Edited by medievil, 06 October 2012 - 04:36 AM.

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#4 medievil

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 04:42 AM

MB and cerebrolysin would dramatically upgrade the capacity your "engine" can run allowing amp to max it out far more, it sounds deadly but amp can only max things out as much the engine allows anyway.

For anyone that sponsers cerebrolysin ill try it:)

nefiracetam prob is a good add on too as it dramatically potentiates the glutaminergic system wich plays a main role in cognition also is a cAMP doner so potentiates LTP.

Im curious how much you can max the brain out, i dont think you can damage the brain by maxing it out to much except with things like amp but its known that the brain can handle it on a temporar basis (altough the sciencetis that was addicted to its he's whole life and produced an amazing output differs).

Edited by medievil, 06 October 2012 - 04:44 AM.

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#5 bernard

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 03:32 PM

Modafinil is the closest thing to a wonder drug. It's stimulating and neuroprotective. Adderall is the best and strongest but comes with the sides of any amphetamine. You got too many cholinergics, all you need is Galantamine - it is the most powerful one of them all and has effects on nicotonic receptors. Memantine is not a nootropic, it in fact impairs cognition, and is best used as an anti-tolerance agent. If you have modafinil or adderall, you don't really need the hydregine or selegine.

Of the racetams, I think aniracetam is the best, but it's half life is only 2 hours. Pramiracetam is strong, but I think overrated, and too much can raise NO levels which kill neurons. Oxiracetam is very good too, the only racetam to give me noticable cognitive effects when I was measuring things. Bacopa works but can be sedating.

Forskolin is very potent but cAMP can works both ways... improving and impairing cognitive function - but you'll feel it when you take it. Idebenone is also good but the effects fade after a day or two of continous use.


Modafinil is stimulating and helps get things done, but like Adderall is not a Nootropic at all. In fact some classify Adderall and Modafinil as anti-nootropics. Adderall is known to suppress creativity and in the long-term is only negative to cognition. Modafiinl does not have these side effects so it's nice. Nowhere near wonder drug as you describe it though. It just gives you the power to avoid sleeping with almost no side effects.

When you say I have too many cholinergics you need to observe the way Piracetams and Cholinergics work. A lot of nootropics users think of Choline as being some sort of energy or whatever that you need a certain amout for Racetams to work. However it's much more. For example CDP-Choline is proven to upregulate dopamine receptors and also to have a synergistic effect with Alpha-GPC because these two work at the both ends of the cholinergic spectrum. Centrophenoxine is a cellular detoxifier as it's known to be able to clear out fat deposits in brain which diminish neuron's ability to communicate. I'll admit here that I have no real idea what Hydergine does yes I only read that it might potentiate the effects of all Piracetams. So you have Pramiracetam which potentiates the effects of other racetams, Aniracetam which is 30x stronger that Piracetam and Hydergine which again potentiates them and Noopept which is already 1000x stronger than piracetam and is yet to be potentiated by Prami and Hyder. Think again whether I'll need that choline or not :) Galantamine comes in only every now and then to keep AcH receptors sensitive.
I read that Memantine is succesfully used in patients with severe Dementia, so I thought to myself it might actually be a potent nootropic. Why you think it's not remains a mystery to me. Truth is I am not familiar with memantine so I won't make any fast judgements.
You say pramiracetam can raise NO levels ? That's interesting - I do have cerebrolysine and Lion's Mane which will most definitely protect neurons from such damage but I might want to research on how to diminish NO levels when on Prami.
Again - different racetams are different, not just in potency. Pramiracetam is mostly valuable because it potentiates other racetams. Aniracetam is great. Oxiracetam works only for 2 hours of reading it's not good for long sessions because it depletes your neurotransmitters. That's why I'll stick with Prami + Ani + Noopept for now and try Oxi only if I need to get even closer to Photographic memory which is doubtful.

I've been into bodybuilding for some time and I've tried Forskolin to raise my cAMP levels, because cAMP is the fastest way to induce ketosis on a no-carb diet. However Forskolin did not work at all for me. No noticeable increase in cAMP levels. I think Forskolin is just myth. If you want a significatn cAMP increase you need clenbuterol.

Cerebrolysin with methylene blue and amphetamine must push the brain to extreme limits, id even say it would be healthier then just amp as the other 2 are neuroprotective.

If i had the money id try it, its clear that we all are far from getting the max out of brain like that guy that exactly remembers all details of everyday of he's past life.


I wouldn't try amphetamine. It's old school, it's neurodamaging and it's not really a nootropic. Sides are too harsh, not only on the brain but on liver as well.


MB and cerebrolysin would dramatically upgrade the capacity your "engine" can run allowing amp to max it out far more, it sounds deadly but amp can only max things out as much the engine allows anyway.

For anyone that sponsers cerebrolysin ill try it:)

nefiracetam prob is a good add on too as it dramatically potentiates the glutaminergic system wich plays a main role in cognition also is a cAMP doner so potentiates LTP.

Im curious how much you can max the brain out, i dont think you can damage the brain by maxing it out to much except with things like amp but its known that the brain can handle it on a temporar basis (altough the sciencetis that was addicted to its he's whole life and produced an amazing output differs).


Amp looks like what N2O is for sports cars lol. I'm pretty curious how MB actually works and how should it be used. I'm definitely up for it. Still Amp is a no-no for me. I haven't heard of Nefiracetam yet but I'm interested now. I'll check it out.

It's very important to understand that what we are doing here is not forcing the brain to work above healthy limits. I think our mission here is to fix the damages on our brains done by centuries of cognition neglection and suppression which has lead to us becoming very stupid creatures. Our brains are sports cars and we've been using only the first gear all these years.

Check these out as well:
Rolipram
Nebracetam (very important - muscarinic M1 receptor agonist)

Edited by Tatsumaru, 06 October 2012 - 03:40 PM.


#6 zeroskater6979

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 03:43 PM

The latest incarnations of ampakines (cx1739, and "high impact" ampakines) are probably the closest thing to nzt at this moment. Honestly, I think the only reason Cortex pharm still exists is to provide unlimited amounts of ampakines to DARPA. Sure cx717 didn't promote wakefulness in sleep deprived soldiers but it still makes you smarter so who cares about the wakefulness aspect? Having super intelligent soldiers is still advantageous for the military. That's just my little conspiracy theory, who knows, maybe DARPA wants nothing to do with ampakines, but I really doubt it.

Edited by zeroskater6979, 06 October 2012 - 03:47 PM.


#7 khemix

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 05:18 PM

Modafinil is stimulating and helps get things done, but like Adderall is not a Nootropic at all. In fact some classify Adderall and Modafinil as anti-nootropics. Adderall is known to suppress creativity and in the long-term is only negative to cognition. Modafiinl does not have these side effects so it's nice. Nowhere near wonder drug as you describe it though. It just gives you the power to avoid sleeping with almost no side effects.

No, the stimulants actually IMPROVE working memory and not just focus and motivation. It is well known that they improve scores in certain cognitive tasks, particularily spatial reasoning and some forms of information processing. (see: http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/15221200 ). Adderall does this even more, but is more prone to long term damage (ie. downregulating of dopamine receptors). This can induce anhedonia and maybe null forms of emotion and creativity. Acutely however, there is no doubt that the two stimulants imrove working memory via their adrenergic effects.


When you say I have too many cholinergics you need to observe the way Piracetams and Cholinergics work. A lot of nootropics users think of Choline as being some sort of energy or whatever that you need a certain amout for Racetams to work. However it's much more. For example CDP-Choline is proven to upregulate dopamine receptors and also to have a synergistic effect with Alpha-GPC because these two work at the both ends of the cholinergic spectrum. Centrophenoxine is a cellular detoxifier as it's known to be able to clear out fat deposits in brain which diminish neuron's ability to communicate. I'll admit here that I have no real idea what Hydergine does yes I only read that it might potentiate the effects of all Piracetams. So you have Pramiracetam which potentiates the effects of other racetams, Aniracetam which is 30x stronger that Piracetam and Hydergine which again potentiates them and Noopept which is already 1000x stronger than piracetam and is yet to be potentiated by Prami and Hyder. Think again whether I'll need that choline or not :) Galantamine comes in only every now and then to keep AcH receptors sensitive.

I understand you need some choline but you don't need every single choline source to provide it. CDP choline upregulates dopamine because it has uridine, so if that is what you are after you may as well just pick up some uridine. I don't know much about centro aside from it being a cholinergic but thank you for the info. With all those racetams you're going to have a very active glutamate system which can potentially damage some cells.


I read that Memantine is succesfully used in patients with severe Dementia, so I thought to myself it might actually be a potent nootropic. Why you think it's not remains a mystery to me. Truth is I am not familiar with memantine so I won't make any fast judgements.

How I know is I was on it for 2 months at 10mg. I never felt so stupid in my life. It's good if you're glutamate is in overdrive, as with taking too many stimulants or all those racetams, but the impairment is obvious and never goes away.

You say pramiracetam can raise NO levels ? That's interesting - I do have cerebrolysine and Lion's Mane which will most definitely protect neurons from such damage but I might want to research on how to diminish NO levels when on Prami.
Again - different racetams are different, not just in potency. Pramiracetam is mostly valuable because it potentiates other racetams. Aniracetam is great. Oxiracetam works only for 2 hours of reading it's not good for long sessions because it depletes your neurotransmitters. That's why I'll stick with Prami + Ani + Noopept for now and try Oxi only if I need to get even closer to Photographic memory which is doubtful.

I tried all and was very dissapoitned with Prami. I like it for its long half life but the effects seemed different than other racetams - I was very prone to making typos and the like. Ani has an ever shorter half life than Oxi but otherwise would be the best.

I've been into bodybuilding for some time and I've tried Forskolin to raise my cAMP levels, because cAMP is the fastest way to induce ketosis on a no-carb diet. However Forskolin did not work at all for me. No noticeable increase in cAMP levels. I think Forskolin is just myth. If you want a significatn cAMP increase you need clenbuterol.

Take forskolin with any stimulant, modafinil or adderall, and you will see potentiation.
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#8 medievil

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 07:49 PM

Stimulant addicts only show minimal damage and mostly downregulation wich makes me think a short course of using amp to push the brains limits wont be too harmfull, i do talk about higher doses then therapeutic doses here so this should only be done for a limited time period.

Therapeutic amp doses shouldnt be a problem therapeutically.

#9 medievil

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 08:00 PM

There also is the possibility that the damage of putting the brain in overdrive can be limited with neuroprotection, but this is mostly guestwork, id like to look at for example athletes that use drugs to improve their performance and what kind of damage they cause and wheter it can be prevented (to come up with something simular)

Recovery periods can also reverse any damage for a big part, i also have been pushing my limits with amphetamine for several long periods and i havent noticed any negatives (wich can be because mild damage doesnt show up first) but since the lengt of those periods i beleive with shorter periods damage can be minimal in combo with neuroprotection. (i cant say anything for sure i could have done more damage then i tought but so far it dramatically increased my ability to learn stuff and come up with potential solutions for a lot of things. I was addicted to amp at recreational doses for a long period too and my cognitive ability afterwards was as optimal as before, i did use neuroprotection and damage probably took place but it looks minimal.

#10 bernard

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 08:06 PM

I have a friend who is abusing amp. I can ask him if you have some specific questions.

#11 medievil

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 06:58 AM

I have a friend who is abusing amp. I can ask him if you have some specific questions.

Wouldnt know what to ask him, either amp abuse can go into productivity, enhancement of life if you can manage to keep taking the right decissions (decline in health while you abuse it for a bit atleast and he probably is ignorant of mem and neuroprotection so i doubt he's anecdota can give any indication related to "overdriving" the brain in the least possible damaging way.

Edited by medievil, 08 October 2012 - 06:59 AM.


#12 megatron

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 03:07 PM

Anybody actually taken the entire stack? If so, please post your results. Wow, been testing piracetam for a few days now and had moderate expectations. This morning I took 7,5g with 3g choline bitartrate, couple of hours later I took 5g and 5g more two hours after that. My day is very mentally challenging and this far there has been no improvement whatsoever! None! Tomorrow I'm going "all in" with a 15g piracetam and 7,5g choline dose. Then 25g piracetam + 12,5 choline and eventually 30g piracetam if that doesn't work. This has been a really disappointing entrance to the world of nootropics. I've just ordered the CILTEP stack and will be ordering aniracetam, oxiracetam, nooptept and modafinil soon. Then I'll instantly start doing megadoses and give some post some feedback. I don't care really if I get a headache, because I will at least know that something is happening.

#13 bernard

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 04:03 PM

You need to understand that these are relatively new compounds and take time to increase the brain's capabilities. Also you need to understand that you won't just get smarter unless you use your brain. At this point there's no real NZT-48 and all we can do is to excercise our brains in the most enriched environments you can imagine and when we reach that plateau when improving becomes really hard and slow then we take some nootropics to improve the brain's own capability to continue growing due to different stimuli.
Sure some piracetam or aniracetam will or might give you immediate effects but that's not the point. The point is in creating new neural pathways, dendrites, synapses and increasing the glial cells to neurons ratio etc. Even in the movie Limitless the main character kept improving himself while on NZT and at the end of the movie he was so smart even when off NZT becuase he retained a lot of the synapses that he developed during that period.
To take Piracetam and to expect to get smarter per se is like to take a fat burner and to expect to get lean while sitting on the couch and watching TV. Sure you might shed a few pounds of water and maybe a few grams of fat due to increased termogenesis but that will be all.

I need that stack because I'm super using my brain. I started taking painting classes, I'm also visiting Fencing, Swimming, Horse Riding. I've started reading into Quantum Mechanics and Transpersonal Psychology. I read Dostoevsky and I play logical games like Lumosity and KenKen every day. I listen to Mozart, I listen to brainwaves I learned to write with my left hand, I play chess. I learn French, Mandarin and Czech and so on and so on. I'm not bragging or anything I'm just giving you an example to what enriched environment might mean for your brain. How to strain it. And when you reach that level you'll definitely want some powerful nootropic stack that can force feed your neural network and can improve learning rates on your path to becoming the NZT guy. Sure -racetams are not the most powerful compounds but we have AMPAkines now and we are yet to discover more and more stuff.

However Racetams are underrated and most people don't even know how to use them. Funny coming from the guy who started the topic but if you think about it you'll notice that people expect to get smarter out of nothing. Just a pill ? How is that going to happen ? Do you expect dramatic neural growth overnight ? Do you expect to download all your knowledge database from thin air ? Doesn't work this way unless you are a Psion or something similar.

The other thing you can do is to overload your brain with stimulants but there's nothing productive to that. No long-term value. People take stimulants just to 'get things done' and then they are the same stupid f**ks like before. Think about this, and then maybe think about whether this stack is for you, for no stack will give you instant gratification.

Edited by Tatsumaru, 08 October 2012 - 04:05 PM.

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#14 megatron

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 07:57 PM

I would definitely say that I'm pushing my brain, after all I am studying to become a computer engineer. At the moment I'm learning C# and Visual Basic. I suppose I could push myself even harder though. What you just said actually made a heckload of sense. I'll continue taking 10g piracetam and 5g choline for a couple of weeks while studying hard and see if it makes an impact before I fully write it off. If not, then I will move on to more advanced nootropics.

#15 bernard

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 11:27 PM

Computer enginnering sounds like fun. Maybe you could even go that extra mile and attempt at something ridiculous hard like assembly and absolute binary. But remember - try not to focus on a single are on your brain. Be controversial - for example if you are great at math, take poetry classes or learn to play the piano.

#16 megatron

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 05:27 PM

Maybe it has better effects if I take it sublingually and not orally.

#17 bernard

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 05:35 PM

It is possible. You might wanna google "Piracetam Oral Bioavailability".

#18 summertimex

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 11:27 PM

HAHA

you'll be depleted in 2-3 months

then you need all the nutrition/orthomolecular to keep up at that rate.

even if you take Pira+Alphagpc with cerebrolysin you'll be depleted in a couple of days.



just learn, read a lot of books, watch a lot of visual type things, listen to music, take ayahuasca DMT+maoi, etc. take a few nootropics.


look at what happens with the Mental Health regimen people. you'll get psychosis and anxiety and your brain will pop for 2-3 years.

Edited by gen6k, 09 October 2012 - 11:30 PM.


#19 bernard

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 12:11 AM

Depleted of what exactly ?

#20 summertimex

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 12:41 AM

Depleted of what exactly ?



your brain doesnt just magically speed up, it eats itself.

if youre trying to extend dendrites come on.

its everything in the brain its an entire network...


if youre trying to not be a square, and become some kind of innovator. well you need to drop many layers of your personality or boundries of exploration. youre entire existential-ontological personality needs to be catalyzed. some serotonin agonism isnt going to do much without the right attitude.

intelligence really lies in the Complex Crystalization of the brain. some Lions mane isnt going to give you complex knowledge its just going to give you a little bridge on to the ocean.

Edited by gen6k, 10 October 2012 - 12:50 AM.

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#21 bernard

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 01:17 AM

I barely understand your English.

I'm not sure that you actually understand how neurons and neural pathways form, There is nothing to deplete. Does your muscle become depleted when you go to the gym and train ?No ? Certainly there is a limited amount of stem cells that diferentiate into muscle cells but then stem cells can also proliferate. All you need is the proper growth factors and enzymes.

I don't really find your post useful for spirituality has nothing to do with how smart you are. To say that lion's mane won't help unless I have the proper attitude is like to say that protein won't help build muscle unless I'm more open-minded about bodybuilding.
While no pill will make you Leonardo daVinci, and no amount of neurons will change your personality, that in no way should mean that being smarter doesn't matter. Of course it does. We are not trying to change ourselves here, we are trying to build ourselves. Potentiate what we already are.

Letting go, Truth realization, Enlightenment - these things have nothing to do with how smart you are, only with how attached to the Ego you are, for all knowledge and skills are useless from Enlightenment's and Truth Realization's points of view.

Instead of telling me to read more books, it's you who might want to attempt at reading more books for your vocabulary sure is poor. Just sayin' :)

Cheers.

Edited by Tatsumaru, 10 October 2012 - 01:21 AM.

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#22 summertimex

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 01:25 AM

spirituality? do you know what a genius is...

all this stuff makes the brain too calm this has nothing to do with becoming a Laser Psychedelic Lightning Speed


The brain isnt a muscle or an arm lol its the most complex device on earth...


the brain makes Muscles Grow if you activate them, the brain decreases or increases metabolism, it controls the whole body.

its not a body part its a control station.

so youre saying that a muscle is going to make your muscles grow, the same thing for nth power.

whats controlling your heart beat? your glorious muscles...

Edited by gen6k, 10 October 2012 - 01:32 AM.

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#23 summertimex

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 02:12 AM

alright lets talk about other things about the brain

downregulation is as important as upregulation (sleep, delta, alpha)

the brain is only partially linear, it skips search steps unlike a computer

homeostasis is good upkeep, but technical homeostasis produces nothing

the brain have multiple directions not just forward glutamate is more vertical spike amplitudes

maturation cycles matter, whatever comes up goes down (conservation of mass, newton)

Edited by gen6k, 10 October 2012 - 02:13 AM.

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#24 bernard

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 02:17 AM

Do YOU know what a genius is ? As far as science is concerned a genius might be the glial cells to neurons ratio in a person's brain.
"Laser Psychedelic Lightning Speed" - are you a member of some alien cult ?

Dude you are nuts. Your sentences are like that => I am go went brain black peppers candy is important.

Wtf, stop talking...

#25 summertimex

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 02:18 AM

no its not
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#26 Kwerl

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Posted 12 October 2012 - 08:43 AM

Modafinil/armodafinil is the strongest one I've tried so far. I suggest you to try armodafinil as well, it appears to work better for me (I've tried it only once and am not yet sure). Also Adderall, and maybe Ritalin - haven't tried them and Ritalin might be ineffective (one study said it didn't improve school grades). Caffeine+theanin seems to be quite effective for some people.

Also, sulbutiamine if it works for you. It seems to do wonders for some people, I suggest you buy a small dose just to try it out. For many people, it does nothing

#27 bernard

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Posted 12 October 2012 - 09:13 AM

Modafinil is a Dopamine Reuptake Inhibitor - that's important to note. Armodafinil could be one. Meaning that they don't exert cocaine-like effects but at the same time might be physiologically addictive.

Sulbutiamine looks promising, but not promising enough plus it shouldn't be taken with any stimulants.

Semax is also interesting. I'm looking forward to its release on the online market.

Edited by Tatsumaru, 12 October 2012 - 09:29 AM.


#28 Kwerl

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Posted 12 October 2012 - 09:27 AM

I don't think this matters, because you also get habituated, so you'll end up taking it once or twice weekly. If you were taking modafinil as a medication for sleep apnea or something, then yes, it might be a concern (though I still won't be too concerned with that).

#29 bernard

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Posted 12 October 2012 - 09:48 AM

Yes I get your point. However one might only want to take it for say 2-3 months in order to get the most out of his nootropic stack and end up with a nasty withdrawal if discontinuation is attempted.

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#30 Kwerl

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Posted 12 October 2012 - 10:09 AM

I don't know if there is any withdrawal. Even if there is, the effects for me are really worth it, this is the best nootropic I've ever taken. I would have said that even if it had only one of its two effects:
- increase concentration
- let me skip a night's sleep and study during that time (I tend to procrastinate very little to none of that time, which is a big improvement)

Plus a small amount of bad side-effects and a small amount of good side-effects.




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