53 replies to this topic

[MKultra]

I turned around the hours a little over a month ago, slept from 5-7 in the morning to 11-12 in the day, it became a habbit for some days. I tried to turn it around again (i've done it a few times before, i takes a bit of time, but not like this). This time i'm having big problems being able to sleep continuously for more than 3h, it's been going on for almost a month and it's really getting to me. I feel weak all the time, depressed and sometimes sick/feverish because of the lack of sleep / non-continous sleep.

The things i've tried so far are:

* Stopped all nootropics and i'm trying to drink less coffee and never during the evening. No change.

* Sleeping tablets. This worked wonderfully, for 1 night. Slept through the whole night. However this made me extremely alert the coming evening / night and made me sleep for just 3h in the morning.

* Waking up after 3h and then forcing myself to not take any naps during the day. This seemed to be the most natural way to get the body to understand it really needs to sleep for longer than 3h. This doesnt work, tried 2 times now and it's absolutely terrible to go through. Again, i just sleep for 3h. When i wake up i actually feel kind of good / ready for a new day, obviously not for very long.

* Sleeping tablets again. This time taking the tablet directly after the 3h of sleep. I should have stayed away probably but got tempted to try again because of how terrible i feel. It worked maybe 1 more time, next time (some days later when i got tempted again) a whole tablet only made me sleep 2-3h so i understood it's now time to either stop or start to up the amount. I decided to stop taking them.

* When i wake up after my 3h i try to sleep in another bed (i have a bed in another room, change of environment has sometimes helped me before). Doesnt work, much too alert to sleep.

* Different teas that is supposed to help with sleep + st john's wort (i take this for depression sometimes, i works pretty well but also makes me very tired). No change except the st johns wort makes me even more tired during the day.

I guess eventually it will sort itself out, but i think a month is too much and absolutely not healthy.. Any ideas how to get the body to "understand" 3h isnt enough? Anything you can recommend? Maybe someone have had a similar experience?

Thanks.

[CIMN]

i would recommend using low to no caffeine, also can try melatonin, magnesium, lithium, and beta alanine. or a doctor can prescribe something..

[ta5]

Light therapy.

[MKultra]

Thx, i'll look into those.

I've lost 9kg (19.8 lbs) in a little over 2 months, i changed my diet a lot (no more candy, soda, cookies, white bread etc). Maybe this is some type of reaction to that?

This night was actually pretty decent, slept 3h, woke up, started reading for 2h and later feel asleep for 1½ - 2h. Had one of those crappy nightmares, racing heart and all. Typical.

Edited by MKultra, 27 October 2012 - 06:36 AM.

[ta5]

So, you're too speedy? Can't relax? Is your "resting" heart rate higher than it used to be 2 months ago? A doc might prescribe Propranolol for awhile to get you back to normal speed. Calcium, Magnesium, Taurine, Inositol, might help relax you.

[protoject]

I feel empathy for you man, i have the same problem except it's been going for months [and years] and its making my heart rate raise more and more, I've tried mostly every above suggestion and none work, sometimes the light seems to help a bit though and maybe magnesium, if anything take like 12mg of zinc a day with the magnesium , it might help... If I could suggest against anything, please stay away from perscription benzos, they really will make the problem worse trust me on that one. not sure about taurine and beta alanine either, i had a stretch with them and I think in the end they just really made my sleep worse. maybe due to being gaba agonists I dunno.

[trance]

Eliminate all sources of caffeine for awhile. Eliminate any light sources while you are sleeping. One of the best things to do to improve sleep quality is simple. It may seem silly to some who have never tried it, but eliminating the secondary light sources will do wonders in term of sleep quality, and allow efficient activation of your brain's built-in reticular activating system (RAS). Simply wear one of these:  image.jpg   9.16KB   2 downloads

[MKultra]

Yes I do have a high heart rate, tested right now, relaxed infront of the computer, 93 BPM. I went to see a doctor about it (about a year ago), he tested my blood pressure and it was fine, he did say my heart rate is high but that there's nothing to do about it. I also told him i often wake up during the night with a racing heart and that it sometimes can take around 40 mins before i'm relaxed enough to sleep. He said he could prescribe some drug. But i'm not sure i want to take Xanax or whatever every night, i've learned to live with it and it's not every night i wake up. This 3h of sleep though, it's getting seriously bad, though like i said, this night was "ok" at least.

@ ta5, no i can't say i'm speedy, in the evening i feel relaxed and i have no difficulties falling asleep, it's just that i wake up after 3h and feel quite alert (not speedy, except when occasionally waking up from nightmares, those times my heart is racing like crazy, 130 BPM or so). Not sure why it countinues in this 3h pattern.

@ protoject, i think you're right, it's probably a bad idea to use benzo's.. i stopped taking it, maybe it's the source of all this because it was how i first tried to turn around the hours again.

@ trance. I'm extremely sensitive to light when sleeping so i've taken care of that problem many years ago.

And yes, i'll skip the espresso for now, see if it helps.

Edited by MKultra, 27 October 2012 - 02:09 PM.

[ta5]

Light therapy and Propranolol might fix this. Propranolol is not a benzo. It's a beta blocker. It will slow down your heart rate. You might want to see a cardiologist and look more closely at your heart rhythm.

Look at your sodium intake, make sure it's not too low or to high.

"Turning around the hours" by pushing your bedtime later and later is called chronotherapy.

See a sleep specialist. Sleep deprivation is associated with shorter life span, insulin resistance, and a long list of other negative effects. You want to know what's going on and get it fixed asap.

[renfr]

Were there any cholinergics in your nootropic stack?
Such as soy lecithin, phosphatidylcholine, Alpha-GPC, ALCAR, choline bitartrate/citrate, Centrophenoxine, Pyritinol, CDP choline, etc...

[protoject]

If you're a dude you might want to get your Testosterone levels checked as well. Chronic sleep deprivation will make testosterone levels lower, possibly causing more harm to the heart, vascular system and brain than needed. If it's low then at least you can get that treated to lessen the impact of the insomnia. I am having almost the exact same problem as you, my heart rate went up and has been consistently higher for like 3 months, and I get that thing at night as well. I have a hunch that this all has to do with stress hormones. Usually when I get my thyroid checked, nothing interesting comes back. But I am getting it checked again, waiting for results on monday, also just got hooked up to a holter.

[ta5]

I was just reading another thread that lead to this study:

J' class='bbc_url' title='External link' rel='nofollow external'>http://pmid.us/full:22293292']J Pharmacol Sci. 2012;118(2):145-8. Epub 2012 Jan 27.
New therapeutic strategy for amino acid medicine: glycine improves the quality of sleep.
Bannai M, Kawai N.
Source
Frontier Research Laboratories, Institute for Innovation, Ajinomoto Co., Inc., Japan. makoto_bannai@ajinomoto.com
Abstract
Glycine is a non-essential amino acid that has indispensable roles in both excitatory and inhibitory neurotransmission via N-methyl-D-aspartate type glutamate receptors and glycine receptors, respectively. We recently reported that glycine ingestion before bedtime significantly ameliorated subjective sleep quality in individuals with insomniac tendencies. Oral administration of glycine to rats was found to induce a significant increase in the plasma and cerebrospinal fluid glycine concentrations and a significant decrease in the core body temperature associated with an increase in cutaneous blood flow. The decline in the core body temperature might be a mechanism underlying glycine's effect on sleep, as the onset of sleep is known to involve a decrease in the core body temperature. Moreover, a low core body temperature is maintained during sleep in humans. Pharmacological studies investigating the mechanisms of glycine on sleep were also performed. In this review, we will describe both our recent findings regarding how and where orally administered glycine acts and findings from our rat study and human trials.
PMID: 22293292

→ source (external link)

[MKultra]

renfr: yes, but i've stopped that stack now. Do you mean it's good or bad for sleep?

protoject: I'm male, 40. How do they treat low tesosterone levels? I don't think there's such a thing in Sweden. Women gets treated for their hormone problems, but men, heh no way they'd prescribe testosterone here if that's what you mean. However I do think my testo levels are decent, at least if its possible to associate it with amount of sex drive (i'm not sure?). Weight lifting (which i've now stopped because of the lack of sleep) has always given me very tiny results though, even with proper diet and a very good program (guy i'm going with to the gym is a pro).

ta5: that's interesting. I'll order some Glycine. I also just remembered i have Lithium at home which i stopped using some time ago (probably because i got tired heh), will give that a try.

Thanks all

´

Edited by MKultra, 28 October 2012 - 06:56 AM.

[kagalive1985]

Try melatonin it really works for me, or if you want something stronger you could try low-dose phenibut (<1gram).

[Galaxyshock]

400-800mg of magnesium (from malate) could help and will also protect you from heart problems.

Edited by Galaxyshock, 28 October 2012 - 10:47 AM.

[MKultra]

Like with many drugs here I need a prescription to buy melatonin, phenibut is classified :/ Seems like grapes contains a lot of melatonin though, might buy some later to see if it has any effect. I get extremely drowsy from wine (far more so than from beer etc), that could be the reason why i guess..

Tonite i'll try: 5-HTP (found a whole bottle, completely forgotten about it) + I'll try to get hold of magnesium and zinc too.. I'll skip the Lithium i think, i googled it and found a lot of people that said they had difficulties sleeping when taking it.

Edited by MKultra, 28 October 2012 - 10:59 AM.

[kagalive1985]

Good luck let us know how you go!

P.S. I agree with the skipping of the lithium (it seems to do more harm than good)...

Look forward to hearing from you,
Namaste,
Kagalive

Edited by kagalive1985, 28 October 2012 - 11:00 AM.

[renfr]

renfr: yes, but i've stopped that stack now. Do you mean it's good or bad for sleep?

Depending on the doses you took, it may have a link to your lack of sleep.
Cholinergics increase levels of acetylcholine and high intake can cause downregulation, this can cause extreme insomnia during and after intake.
Choline is in fact good for sleep but downregulation makes your brain needing more and more choline to reach the same effects, and you know what happens next.
Choline deficiency leads to almost total insomnia and waking up several times during the night, having nightmares too, high heart rate, feeling like you have fever and overall you always have a "wide awake" feeling.
I suggest if you still have choline (soy lecithin for example is sufficient) to take a fair dose of it one hour before sleeping and see if you sleep faster, get better sleep and also check your heart rate.

why I'm saying it's choline related it's because :
- you get nightmares
- you feel depressed
- you wake up several times in the night and have a hard time sleeping
- you feel "wide awake"
- high heart rate
- even with benzos you wake up in the middle of the night
- you feel like you have fever

There's an inverse relationship between acetylcholine and epinephrine/dopamine which make your heart going faster and make you be alert all the time, this is also true for your heart, acetylcholine activates potassium channels and make your heart rate go lower and epinephrine activates sodium/calcium channels leading to a fast heart rate.

I suggest that you also cut on alcohol, ethanol is depleting your acetylcholine and despite being drowsy you might have a hard time sleeping.

Acetylcholine deficiency is exactly like when you stop smoking, it causes a cholinergic syndrome which withdrawal can last several weeks.

[MKultra]

That's very interesting, good to know. I have Sunflower Lecithin at home which i havent taken i a while, i'll try that before i go to sleep tonite together with the 5-htp etc.

I don't drink alcohol, stopped that completely 3 months ago, and even then i was only drinking very occasionally. ..and wow is it sometimes really annoying to have friends who doesnt understand or even accepts that you don't want to drink and tries to convince you "alcohol is in fact good for your health" etc, gah.

Thanks again.

Edited by MKultra, 28 October 2012 - 01:11 PM.

[MKultra]

Ok, did see a big improvement from before. I woke up after 3h like usual, but i could get back to sleep within 20-30 mins, and slept for almost 3h again. Dreams were a bit more vivid, but wasnt about something bad, which was nice for a change.

Heart rate is now "only" 74 BPM, hmm, wonder if coffee is affecting it more than i have thought, i only drank on cup yesterday (in the morning, otherwise i get a severe migrane). I'll switch to green tea instead for a while and pay attention to my heart rate.

Here's what i took 1h before sleep:

300mg 5-HTP (from natural source, the synthezised one - which i think is superior is now classified here :( )
2 x 1200mg sunflower lecithin
Muilti-vitamin pill (for zink/magnesium, yes probably not optimal, i'll try to get hold of it separately today.)
+ i ate a lot of red grapes (for melatonin)

[trance]

You may just have the wrong genotype, an allergy, or hypersensitivity, to caffeine ... eliminate all sources of it gradually, and see if things return to normal.

http://www.pharma.uz...leep_35_899.pdf

http://keppel.qimr.e...67-975_2012.pdf

Edited by trance, 29 October 2012 - 04:24 AM.

[Ames]

@ ta5, no i can't say i'm speedy, in the evening i feel relaxed and i have no difficulties falling asleep, it's just that i wake up after 3h and feel quite alert (not speedy, except when occasionally waking up from nightmares, those times my heart is racing like crazy, 130 BPM or so). Not sure why it countinues in this 3h pattern.

I'm a long time veteran of insomnia, although it has been many years since it has given me problems. Going on your exact symptoms, which I am well familiar with, the most appropriate solution when you wake up would be supplementing with GABA. Buy the NOW Foods Powder and some 00 capsules, and fill a capsule 1/5th full when you wake up, and take it. That amount should be perfect to drop you into sleep for the rest of the night and into the early-mid morning. My experience is that filling the capsule 3/4 full for instance, would put me to sleep until noon if taken at 3 am. However, your response may be different and so you will have to experiment with the dose. Perhaps first try the 3/4 full capsule to become familiar with the full glorious effect as a baseline, and ease the dose back from there.

Why I like GABA is because it facilitates a natural quality of sleep that doesn't feel like I took anything to achieve. This is important, and something that is not achievable with anything that isn't inhibitory in nature, in my experience. Other inhibitory supplements might work well (lithium, for instance, can work), but GABA seems to be the most benign, as well as the most effective in my experience. Glycine feels unnatural and less effective in its inhibitory effects, by comparison. To illustrate, GABA is recommended as the abortive solution to the catecholamine enhancing CILTEP stack that people experiment with on this forum, when the catecholamines build up to uncomfortable levels. It's recommended because it works. Try it. A caveat: if I take it during the day, I feel like I have to take a nap. Its only good to take at night, imo. Personally, I have a rule against taking anything before sleep, as that seems to be the worst time to take anything as it seems to disturb the natural sleep rhythm and hormonal cycle most when taken then. So, I recommend GABA when you awake in the middle of the night or in the morning when you want to drop back for more sleep.

You may be symptomatic of too much adrenaline in your system. Another thing that you can do, which is very effective, is to exhale as slow as possible when your heart is racing or when you awake too early. Slow-as-possible breathing stress-free exhales (no oxygen deprivation) will directly work to calm an overexcited system. It will help counteract adrenaline and excitation in general. It works very well for sleep problems, and should work equally well for your heart rate. You can also try a little bit of salt when your heart is racing like that, as it tends to clear adrenaline.

Edited by golgi1, 29 October 2012 - 05:47 AM.

[MKultra]

@ trance

since i lost a few pounds (no longer overweight) i've noticed i'm more sensitive to caffeine, so yeah could be a reason. Seems like i can't read the .pdf's, will re-install acrobat later. Thanks.


@ golgi1

Wow, lots of great info, thank you! GABA sounds very interesting, i'll order some.

Before i had these problems with the 3h pattern i sleep for 6h, very rarely 7h (once a month maybe) and extremely rarely 8h or more (maybe once in a 6 month period). The waking up with a racing heart i have 1 - 4 times / week, its been going on for about 7 years now.

Not sure it's considered bad with 6h of sleep? I dont work so i live a very stress free life, i dont have any kids or gf either so its up to me when to sleep and for how long etc. It's both good and bad i guess, it's easy to sit up all night sometimes. So i need to be a lot more strict about that from now on, can't have this happening again, it's such a waste to go around like a zombie all day.

Edited by MKultra, 29 October 2012 - 07:33 AM.

[renfr]

Ok, did see a big improvement from before. I woke up after 3h like usual, but i could get back to sleep within 20-30 mins, and slept for almost 3h again. Dreams were a bit more vivid, but wasnt about something bad, which was nice for a change.

Heart rate is now "only" 74 BPM, hmm, wonder if coffee is affecting it more than i have thought, i only drank on cup yesterday (in the morning, otherwise i get a severe migrane). I'll switch to green tea instead for a while and pay attention to my heart rate.

Here's what i took 1h before sleep:

300mg 5-HTP (from natural source, the synthezised one - which i think is superior is now classified here :( )
2 x 1200mg sunflower lecithin
Muilti-vitamin pill (for zink/magnesium, yes probably not optimal, i'll try to get hold of it separately today.)
+ i ate a lot of red grapes (for melatonin)

Figures out you had a choline withdrawal.
Caffeine may cause such issues as it is an antagonist to acetylcholine receptors, however if taken chronically with a proper and not excessive dosage is also a cure to choline deficiency/withdrawal as it causes upregulation of such receptors. Just try to find your caffeine thresold, start with low dosage 50-100mg, it's enough to reverse cholinergic receptors damage (of course if damage was caffeine-induced don't take more caffeine, just way that it gets out of your system).
If you took massive doses of coffee (over 200mg a day) no wonder why you had such symptoms.
Depending on your caffeine metabolism and the intake, it can be as low as 10h for symptoms to disappear and as long as a whole week.
I personally have a very slow metabolism of caffeine and I would not dare exceeding 150mg, the last time I did a caffeine overdose it lasted almost 3 days.

Sleeping 6h a day may be or may not be good, it just depends on how you feel when you wake up, if you're depressed, if you feel braindead or if your working memory is totally impaired then it's obviously not a good idea.
Bacopa significantly improves working memory after being sleep deprived.

[MKultra]

Yes i usually make a double espresso, they're like 150mg of caffeine i believe. I take (/took) 2-4 of those daily. When i started waking up with a racing heart at night i stopped for a few days. It didn't help so i thought "ok, it's not the caffeine then" and i continued like normal. So it has probably been the coffee all this time. Well, i'm really glad i started this topic now, so many people with a lot of good knowledge here

No, i don't feel tired after 6h of sleep, i don't need to take naps so i guess 6h is enough.

I have Bacopa in my nootropic stack

Thanks again.

[protoject]

renfr: yes, but i've stopped that stack now. Do you mean it's good or bad for sleep?

Depending on the doses you took, it may have a link to your lack of sleep.
Cholinergics increase levels of acetylcholine and high intake can cause downregulation, this can cause extreme insomnia during and after intake.
Choline is in fact good for sleep but downregulation makes your brain needing more and more choline to reach the same effects, and you know what happens next.
Choline deficiency leads to almost total insomnia and waking up several times during the night, having nightmares too, high heart rate, feeling like you have fever and overall you always have a "wide awake" feeling.
I suggest if you still have choline (soy lecithin for example is sufficient) to take a fair dose of it one hour before sleeping and see if you sleep faster, get better sleep and also check your heart rate.
...........
There's an inverse relationship between acetylcholine and epinephrine/dopamine which make your heart going faster and make you be alert all the time, this is also true for your heart, acetylcholine activates potassium channels and make your heart rate go lower and epinephrine activates sodium/calcium channels leading to a fast heart rate................

I suggest that you also cut on alcohol, ethanol is depleting your acetylcholine and despite being drowsy you might have a hard time sleeping.

Acetylcholine deficiency is exactly like when you stop smoking, it causes a cholinergic syndrome which withdrawal can last several weeks.

Geeze! I wish my poblem was caffeine related like MKultra's, boy would life be easy. Now, you have a point about the cholinergic system. Interestingly I took a lot of high dose choline supplements in the past and they definitely worsened my sleep. However , I also took CDP choline which was one of my favorite nootropics but made my sleep worse and caused the exact syndrome that you listed. What's interesting about that is that CDP choline is supposed to upregulate the acetylcholine receptors. However it also upregulates dopamine receptors, so maybe it's effect for that is stronger, and maybe that's why it didn't help sleep but messed it up. Interestingly I found galantamine- to be very effective at making me sleep for long times if i took it a number of hours before bed. Actually it made me almost oversleep which is a very very rare thing that never happens to me in my life. Not sure if this is repeatable. But also galantamine made me hella depressed. Not the killyourself kinda depressed but just not wanting to do anything and being completely disconnected from the world. Anyway the reason it worked for sleep is up for interpretation. I'm pretty sure it just prevents the breakdown of choline so it's more active in your brain, but if I am n ot mistaken I think i have read something about it being an allosteric modulator for the nicotinic ach receptor...

[MKultra]

I don't know if it's caffeine related just yet, but it sounds very probable, i really didnt think it could stay in your system for a week (or at least have symptoms up to a week).

[MKultra]

This night is really awful. Slept for just 2.5-3h, it's like i'm getting punished for getting a decent amount of sleep last night.

I woke up this morning noticing i had a cold, and i thought "ok this will make me tired for sure tonight, i always sleep more when i'm sick". Been trying to get some more sleep for 4h now, time to give it up. Tried everything from last night. Damn, i really thought i was on to something :/

[protoject]

Yeah it really sucks when you quit coffee and ETC. and the problem is still there weeks later.

[Kompota]

* Sleeping tablets. This worked wonderfully, for 1 night. Slept through the whole night. However this made me extremely alert the coming evening / night and made me sleep for just 3h in the morning.

What kind of sleeping tablets ?
Avoid benzodiazepines, Z-drugs and other GABA receptor agonists at all cost. In my case it was a minor (in hindsight) sleep issue due to poor lifestyle, and I decided Xanax should help. Biggest mistake in my life ! I should have just improved my sleep hygiene and the issue would have resolved given enough time and patience.
The Xanax and later the Klonopin are the very reason I am still sick after 17 months (I am much better nowadays though). Within a week or so on Xanax my sleep (and not only that) got progressively worse with tolerance building up extremely fast, but at that time I could not figure out what was going on.
Very important to remember: benzos may help with initiating sleep (even that effect is lost once tolerance kicks in), but they are useless if you have troubles with sleep maintenance. Also they tend to keep you in the lighter stages of non-REM sleep, not allowing you to enter the so important stage of deep sleep. They suppress REM-sleep as well. I remember the time on Xanax and Klonopin and that weird "toxic" sleep where I was sedated, sometimes half awake, with no dreams at all. I wondered why I would wake up in the morning tired and unrefreshed, although I had slept for 8 hours.

If you have no troubles falling asleep, but the issue is sleep maintenance, then I think it may not be directly related to GABA, the root of it may rather be within the serotonin - melatonin cycle.