6 replies to this topic

[maskedmuffin]

HI folks:

i purchased natrol timed release 5-htp relecently ,200mg to assist with persistant low level depression , choosing it over prozac initially as there were some side effects from my previous trial on the green pill which i would like to mitigate if possible.

now i also have tyrosine from trueprotein arriving in powder form.

I have taken garden of life b complex for several months, 2 capsules total providing b6 amount of 10mg i believe.

I have perused the articles and noted that 5-htp is contraindicated with b6 due to synthesis on the "wrong" side of the blood brain barrier, thereby preventing seretonin from hitting the areas where you really need it (while producing expensive urine).

However, i have also read that l-tyrosine is most efficacious when combined with a b complex on an empty stomach?

So how do manage to get the most out of both simulatenously? Basically looking to get a nice balance of dopamine and serotonin to the brain in concert.

Utilized this article on the NCBI as guideline, directing my focus on the sections entitled "Administration of 5-HTP in a properly balanced manner" and "Conclusion"


Would love to get feedback from those who have purchased the aforementioned brands,

Do either help in appetite supression, especially as it relates to sugary, fructose based items? I believe my impulse for those are driven by the depression, as a form of cathartic placation.

Anyway, thanks really looking forward to feedback

[BioFreak]

Been there, done that. Don't worry about 5-htp with b6, its theoretical and there is no actual evidence that it is problematic (but there should be cause many products combine b6 with 5-htp).

BUT...

You are going a dangerous route there.

5-htp will deplete catecholamines.
so you add tyrosine.
tyrosine will deplete sulfur. (VERY bad. not only will it deplete enzymes needed for catecholamine synthesis, it will also deplete glutathione which means increased risk for alzheimers, parkinson, cancer,...)
so you need to add l-cysteine (not nac, but you can take that in addition).
cysteine binds to heavy metals, which is a good thing, but those new formed molecules are able to penetrate the bbb, which is a bad thing.
so you need to add selenium and zinc(my addition) to chelate possible heavy metal accumulation in the brain.
you can also deplete cofactors, so you have to take them too. (b6, b12, folate)
if you don't, you will most likely elevate homocysteine. not good.

So basically, to be successful with 5-htp, you need whole stack of supplements so you don't deplete and/or wreck your body.

Sources:
Studies:
http://www.neurosupport.com/
Look at the studies on the left.
Anectodal:
Been there, done that, needed all of that to migrate side effects of 5-htp.

And since 5-htp does nothing else then elevate serotonin in the brain, it is similar to any ssri that increases serotonin in the brain by the same amount, while it does that (ssris may deplete serotonin long term, then, effects and side effects will drecrease too). Meaning if you increase serotonin as much with 5-htp as you did with an ssri, the side effects should be the same. Some of these come because of depletion of catecholamines(i.e. loss of focus, impotence, loss of libido(partly), others will stay, no matter what you do, because they are simply a direct effect of increased serotonin.

EDIT: Just saw you are linking to one of the studies mentioned above anyways. Still, you need to be very careful and follow their protocol. Unfortunately, their guide for practitioners is no longer online, it showed exactly how the standard procedure is (before taking urine samples and adjusting dosage, if the first 3 stages were not successful).

Let me repeat again. Unless you add everything in proper dosage, not only 5-htp, tyrosine, and a b complex, you will suffer the consequences long term.

Edited by BioFreak, 10 May 2013 - 11:06 AM.

[Tom_]

You can neck 5-htp and L-tyrosine perfectly safely and you are not going to deplete anything to dangerous levels, the b vit should be fine.

However for depression I think you are going about it wrong. As per usual everyone is ignoring poor ol' noradrenaline and adrenaline and melatonin. Not to mention ignoring psychotheraputic and behavioral activation.

Out of the non-approved sertonergic agents tryptophan is the only one with multiple consistent studies suggesting any efficacy to the point that in some countries it is now used. So I'm suggesting this of course. The interaction between sertonin and catecholmines is way more complicated than one goes up another goes down and it also is based on a bunch of other neurotransmitter levels as well as a cluster fuck of other stuff. In effect you can ignore it.

If you are having any sleep disturbances what so ever then you should aim to be treating those as well. Sleep hygiene should be first line and is likely the most effective in non sleep disorder, sleep problems. Most people aren't willing to follow it through to the letter or in a very few cases it doesn't produce enough result. Then if you are sleeping for feeling sleepy for to much time you should consider investing in a light box and setting it to go off at the time you want to wake up. For struggling to get to sleep or waking up during the night melatonin in doses from 0.3-1mg should be tried first. If that doesn't work jump straight to 3mg then 6 before 10 is tried (there are varying dosage ideas one can try and I'm happy to expand on them if you want). Some people claim it makes them feel on boards claim it makes them feel more depressed. The research suggests its a moderately effective antidepressant. Good sleep with a normal quality should improve functioning, mood and eating patterns.

If you are feeling low on energy there are more ways than increasing dopamine neuron firing to get it.

First of all lifestyle changes. Exercise - increases cortisol output and adrenaline, increases dopamine rector densities and increases noradrenaline firing (last one is mer speculation).

Sulbutiamine will, normally for the first few days give you a kick of energy that's plain awesome and while that will die down it won't disappear and it works as an effective motivator. DLPA is personally preferred but is converted into L-tyosine so whatever floats your boat. Caffine or modafinil will give you energy where you didn't have before as well.

Cbt online or in a book as shown to be very successful and is the most evidence based treatment for mild depression. I won't find the studies claiming it but they should be easy to locate.

[BioFreak]

Sulfur depletion is a fact and being mentioned by the authors of these studies several times, in several papers. And those are the only ones doing professional research on treating mental disorders with amino acids as far as I know. I know for a fact that they are right because I had to suffer the consequences for not listening.

Tom, did you even bother reading their papers? And since you are so sure, you surely have spent considerable time (years) of continuous use with high dosages of 5-htp and tyrosine without problems. Right?

Your answer is not even theoretical sound, or backed up by science, its just plain dangerous to anyone reading this and considering going the same way.

Tryptophan will be several magnitudes less efficient because it is further down the metabolism that leads to serotonin.
Only about 1% will be converted to 5-htp. 9% will be converted to Kynurenine and 90% to kynurenic acid.
It will only be helpful for those who only need a minimal increase in serotonin levels.

[maskedmuffin]

Thank you biofreak for this rundown.

Any idea where i could get that practitioner guide regarding 5-htp usage in conjunction with l-tyrosine?

Been there, done that. Don't worry about 5-htp with b6, its theoretical and there is no actual evidence that it is problematic (but there should be cause many products combine b6 with 5-htp).

BUT...

You are going a dangerous route there.

5-htp will deplete catecholamines.
so you add tyrosine.
tyrosine will deplete sulfur. (VERY bad. not only will it deplete enzymes needed for catecholamine synthesis, it will also deplete glutathione which means increased risk for alzheimers, parkinson, cancer,...)
so you need to add l-cysteine (not nac, but you can take that in addition).
cysteine binds to heavy metals, which is a good thing, but those new formed molecules are able to penetrate the bbb, which is a bad thing.
so you need to add selenium and zinc(my addition) to chelate possible heavy metal accumulation in the brain.
you can also deplete cofactors, so you have to take them too. (b6, b12, folate)
if you don't, you will most likely elevate homocysteine. not good.

So basically, to be successful with 5-htp, you need whole stack of supplements so you don't deplete and/or wreck your body.

Sources:
Studies:
http://www.neurosupport.com/
Look at the studies on the left.
Anectodal:
Been there, done that, needed all of that to migrate side effects of 5-htp.

And since 5-htp does nothing else then elevate serotonin in the brain, it is similar to any ssri that increases serotonin in the brain by the same amount, while it does that (ssris may deplete serotonin long term, then, effects and side effects will drecrease too). Meaning if you increase serotonin as much with 5-htp as you did with an ssri, the side effects should be the same. Some of these come because of depletion of catecholamines(i.e. loss of focus, impotence, loss of libido(partly), others will stay, no matter what you do, because they are simply a direct effect of increased serotonin.

EDIT: Just saw you are linking to one of the studies mentioned above anyways. Still, you need to be very careful and follow their protocol. Unfortunately, their guide for practitioners is no longer online, it showed exactly how the standard procedure is (before taking urine samples and adjusting dosage, if the first 3 stages were not successful).

Let me repeat again. Unless you add everything in proper dosage, not only 5-htp, tyrosine, and a b complex, you will suffer the consequences long term.

[BioFreak]

Check your pm's.

[gail2]

Hi BioFreak, I just sent you a pm.