42 replies to this topic

[Mikael]

I have taken inositol for a long time for ocd problems. It has been fairly helpful. I took the adviced dosage of 18grams daily

I had some problems with depression as well this past fall, and so I ordered 5htp hoping it would help. I had read that one could take inositol and ssri's together so I didnt think there could be a problem.

I took 50mg of 5htp at around lunch. Then throughout the evening I took inositol until I reached my daily dosage. Then I got a really weird headache. It was like bees were stinging inside my head, like a stinging/"Zapp"-ing sensation. I was sick and tired of having so much problems so I didnt bother calling the hospital or anything but just went to bed.

Ever since then ive had problems. I have a pressure-sensation inside my head. A lot of things make it worse. Inositol now makes the pressure worse. Coffee makes me tired instead of alert and increases the pressure. A lot of food makes the headaches worse as well.

What the hell happened? Anyone has any ideas. I tried a bunch of supplements after this and the only thing that helped was bacopa monnieri. But the problem remains.

Anyone has any ideas???? Braindamage???

Edited by Mikael, 03 June 2013 - 02:40 PM.

[prunk]

No, you didn't get a brain damage. Possibly there's just eg overactive firing taking place / took place in your serotonin system which messes things a bit. Or something like that. In a situations like these it's always best to keep cool ( I know it can be very hard ) and not to try anything hasty. It can mess things up more. Eat well and try to rest. It'll most likely pass.

Edited by prunk, 03 June 2013 - 03:28 PM.

[Mikael]

No, you didn't get a brain damage. Possibly there's just eg overactive firing taking place / took place in your serotonin system which messes things a bit. Or something like that. In a situations like these it's always best to keep cool ( I know it can be very hard ) and not to try anything hasty. It can mess things up more. Eat well and try to rest. It'll most likely pass.

But this happened a couple of months back and the problems are there, in fact worse now than at first. Could be a result of trying a lot of things to make it disappear and I had surgery for apendicitis 2 months ago as well.

Oh well. :/

Edited by Mikael, 03 June 2013 - 03:35 PM.

[Tom_]

Its more likely to be somatazisation. CBT, behavioral activation, GP consult and and SSRI.

[Mikael]

Its more likely to be somatazisation. CBT, behavioral activation, GP consult and and SSRI.

I have a prescription for effexor. Pretty scared to take it but I guess I should...

Why do you think its somatization?

[Tom_]

Symptoms are non-specific and no disease process is obvious from what you suggested. Some people have reported 5HTP causing brain zaps. If that's the case the only treatment is discontinuation - which you have already done. Caffine is contraindicated in anxiety disorders anyway and you shouldn't be taking it. Inistol is an un evidence based treatment. I'd suggest you chuck the lot of it out.

You are very anxious (diagnosis of OCD, GAD is a significant possibility) and hypervigilance is commonly associated with somaoziation.

Did you notice how I put CBT, behavioual activation and a GP consult before SSRI's? That's because you should be doing those things first. Sertraline is the best place to start. Go up to a dose of 200mg and the trial should be for 3 months. After that you should try venlafaxine.

[Mikael]

Symptoms are non-specific and no disease process is obvious from what you suggested. Some people have reported 5HTP causing brain zaps. If that's the case the only treatment is discontinuation - which you have already done. Caffine is contraindicated in anxiety disorders anyway and you shouldn't be taking it. Inistol is an un evidence based treatment. I'd suggest you chuck the lot of it out.

You are very anxious (diagnosis of OCD, GAD is a significant possibility) and hypervigilance is commonly associated with somaoziation.

Did you notice how I put CBT, behavioual activation and a GP consult before SSRI's? That's because you should be doing those things first. Sertraline is the best place to start. Go up to a dose of 200mg and the trial should be for 3 months. After that you should try venlafaxine.

Yes but its difficult to get therapy. I am in the process of getting a therapist. Ive seen a GP and an ENT. I got a prescription of venlafaxine from the gp. What is behavioural activation exactly?

Edited by Mikael, 03 June 2013 - 04:09 PM.

[Tom_]

No its not. There are easy access to books and online CBT and they have nearly equal efficacy to CBT with a person. Good keep up hard work with getting to see someone.

Behavioral activation put very simply is doing stuff. Exercise, socializing and occupational (study or work).

Mindfulness and meditation are also very effective. You can start off here really small and work upwards.

[Mikael]

No its not. There are easy access to books and online CBT and they have nearly equal efficacy to CBT with a person. Good keep up hard work with getting to see someone.

Behavioral activation put very simply is doing stuff. Exercise, socializing and occupational (study or work).

Mindfulness and meditation are also very effective. You can start off here really small and work upwards.

Thanks. I used to meditate daily but havent for a while, ill start again. I already exercise as much as possible though and I am very familiar with CBT already as Ive done it before for ocd. Ive never had these kinds of problems before regardless of mental state, but I wont dismiss somatization either. It kinda makes me feel really mad though to imagine that this cosntant pressure and headache is "just" a result of mental issues. But hey, as long as I get a bit better I dont really care

If anyone has actually taken inositol at my dosage and 5htp the same day and hasnt suffered similar problems then that should be an indication for sure. Anyone?

Edited by Mikael, 03 June 2013 - 04:20 PM.

[renfr]

Do you have any other symptoms besides that pressure such as insomnia, sleep paralysis, short term memory loss...?
I know the study says 18g but personally I can't even go past 2g, it already gave me extreme tremors and agitation for the whole day.
Taking inositol and 5htp probably wasn't a good idea, you inhibited too much dopamine with this stack which may have caused long lasting upregulation, this might happen if you have a problem getting enough tyrosine or if you have an enzyme impairment or it could be epigenetics.
Coffee increases it because it
inhibits serotonin which is a vasoconstrictor thus alleviate headaches.
How much time have you taken this?

[Mikael]

Do you have any other symptoms besides that pressure such as insomnia, sleep paralysis, short term memory loss...?
I know the study says 18g but personally I can't even go past 2g, it already gave me extreme tremors and agitation for the whole day.
Taking inositol and 5htp probably wasn't a good idea, you inhibited too much dopamine with this stack which may have caused long lasting upregulation, this might happen if you have a problem getting enough tyrosine or if you have an enzyme impairment or it could be epigenetics.
Coffee increases it because it
inhibits serotonin which is a vasoconstrictor thus alleviate headaches.
How much time have you taken this?

Hi I took inositol for a long time without any problem. I could drink coffee etc. during that time again with no problem. I used to take 200mg caffeine tablets prior to the gym and had no issue with that. And then I took 5htp 50mg (100mg tablet which I divided in two) ONCE in late September, and ever since I have this problem. :/

How do you think i could counteract this problem and alleviate it? Is effexor worth a shot for example? Bacopa is the only thing that actually helped and ive read it raises serotonin. It alleviated the head pressure and brain fog pretty much completetely, but it was only when I took it. Also tried 3-4 racetams and some other stuff and nothing there helped. Ibuprofen or similar doesnt seem to alleviate the pressure and headache much either. Acetimenophen is entirely useless it seems.

I had surgery for apendicitis as well 2 months ago and YES, a lot of insomnia since then (worse headaches and brain fog as well but it has slowly gotten a bit better at least). Even before I had a little bit of insomnia. I need a sleeping aid to help me sleep now. I tried taking clonazepam post surgery as it has always helped before, but it just caused insomnia instead :S (it may have been a one time thing though as I havent tried it again since and I took it after already not sleeping for 24 hours so maybe it would work fine now). Now I take alimemazine ie an hold antihistamine but since its related to fentiazines (old antipsychotics) it also inhibits dopamine a bit... I have to take it many hours before sleep because if I take it like 2 hours before it actually inhibits sleep for some strange reason. It worked fine for a few days and then I masturbated in the evening and after that it made sleep impossible until 5 hours after taking it. Maybe not related at all and I have no idea if masturbating actually worsens my insomnia or not as I have pretty low libido as it is anyhow.

Edited by Mikael, 04 June 2013 - 09:03 AM.

[Tom_]

A big date with rosey palms doesn't worrsen insomnia.

The reason it takes so to 'work' is tolerence, if you are taking a sleeping pill that takes 5 hours to put you to sleep its not actually working. You need to get off the sleeping pills. The only people who should be using sleeping meds are those with mania, severe pain and idiopathic sleeping disorders. The only other time is after you have perfect sleep hygine and still have onset insomnia of over 2 hours (going to sleep around 2AM). The only evidence based treatments for insomnia long term are CBT and sleep hygine. If you absoultly must, low dose melatonin (0.3-3mg) or high dose (10-20mg).

This is becoming the very definition of Somatazisation. You are fixing events to the onset of various symptoms when those events (bar the surgery) couldn't possibly cause those symptoms. Everyone does it, everyone but just not as severely.

You should use the sertraline instead of venlafaxine as venlafaxine is very stimulating.

[Mikael]

A big date with rosey palms doesn't worrsen insomnia.

The reason it takes so to 'work' is tolerence, if you are taking a sleeping pill that takes 5 hours to put you to sleep its not actually working. You need to get off the sleeping pills. The only people who should be using sleeping meds are those with mania, severe pain and idiopathic sleeping disorders. The only other time is after you have perfect sleep hygine and still have onset insomnia of over 2 hours (going to sleep around 2AM). The only evidence based treatments for insomnia long term are CBT and sleep hygine. If you absoultly must, low dose melatonin (0.3-3mg) or high dose (10-20mg).

This is becoming the very definition of Somatazisation. You are fixing events to the onset of various symptoms when those events (bar the surgery) couldn't possibly cause those symptoms. Everyone does it, everyone but just not as severely.

You should use the sertraline instead of venlafaxine as venlafaxine is very stimulating.

While I appreciate your post, theres a big difference between speculating about a cause and assuming that it must be so. Im not assuming anything and I know how easily the human mind finds false patterns, however im hoping someone knowledgable here might get an idea of what could be the problem. Hence I speculate. More severely than someone who has a clear cause and treatment im sure, but I doubt others wouldn't speculate as wildly as me if they had the same problem, not knowing what the cause were

But lets say its all somatization. What then? Ive already done cbt for ocd and I know cbt in and out and my pure o ocd is as good as it will ever be pretty much. I already exercise daily if possible and I keep a strict routine of when I go to bed and when I get out etc. etc. Ive now started meditating daily again and I eat healthy food only. So while I certainly dont mind the possibility of somatization whatsoever I do care about possible treatments for very physical symptoms (regardless of actual pathophysiology) and the things you have suggested bar sertraline are pretty much all things ive tried already. And im not better. Im worse.

There is also the problem that there's basically no way for a doctor to know whether a person suffers from somatization or if its simply a disorder the doctor is not familiar with. For example, let's assume migraine was an unknown phenomenon for a particular doctor. A person goes to see this doctor because he complains of daily headaches on the left side of his head. This person also happens to suffer with anxiety (a very common thing indeed). How exactly is the doctor supposed to be able to know whether its somatization or simply an illness he hasnt encountered before (migraine)? This is in fact what has happened with many medical disorders and it is likely the same would hold true for migraine if it was a rare condition.

So basically while I dont mind any diagnosis I do want to get better and somatization feels like a dead-end. re effexor: I was given venlafaxine by a gp and an ENT said it was a good med to try. 0_o

ps. I took alimemazine for 2 years without any problem whatsoever to help me sleep deeper as I would always wake up all the time otherwise (no problem falling asleep). I then stopped for a year and now I take it again. I know how that med works in and out and Ive never had this problem with it before. Of course thats no proof of anything really.

Edited by Mikael, 04 June 2013 - 11:47 AM.

[renfr]

Do you have any other symptoms besides that pressure such as insomnia, sleep paralysis, short term memory loss...?
I know the study says 18g but personally I can't even go past 2g, it already gave me extreme tremors and agitation for the whole day.
Taking inositol and 5htp probably wasn't a good idea, you inhibited too much dopamine with this stack which may have caused long lasting upregulation, this might happen if you have a problem getting enough tyrosine or if you have an enzyme impairment or it could be epigenetics.
Coffee increases it because it
inhibits serotonin which is a vasoconstrictor thus alleviate headaches.
How much time have you taken this?

Hi I took inositol for a long time without any problem. I could drink coffee etc. during that time again with no problem. I used to take 200mg caffeine tablets prior to the gym and had no issue with that. And then I took 5htp 50mg (100mg tablet which I divided in two) ONCE in late September, and ever since I have this problem. :/

How do you think i could counteract this problem and alleviate it? Is effexor worth a shot for example? Bacopa is the only thing that actually helped and ive read it raises serotonin. It alleviated the head pressure and brain fog pretty much completetely, but it was only when I took it. Also tried 3-4 racetams and some other stuff and nothing there helped. Ibuprofen or similar doesnt seem to alleviate the pressure and headache much either. Acetimenophen is entirely useless it seems.

I had surgery for apendicitis as well 2 months ago and YES, a lot of insomnia since then (worse headaches and brain fog as well but it has slowly gotten a bit better at least). Even before I had a little bit of insomnia. I need a sleeping aid to help me sleep now. I tried taking clonazepam post surgery as it has always helped before, but it just caused insomnia instead :S (it may have been a one time thing though as I havent tried it again since and I took it after already not sleeping for 24 hours so maybe it would work fine now). Now I take alimemazine ie an hold antihistamine but since its related to fentiazines (old antipsychotics) it also inhibits dopamine a bit... I have to take it many hours before sleep because if I take it like 2 hours before it actually inhibits sleep for some strange reason. It worked fine for a few days and then I masturbated in the evening and after that it made sleep impossible until 5 hours after taking it. Maybe not related at all and I have no idea if masturbating actually worsens my insomnia or not as I have pretty low libido as it is anyhow.

I find it very strange that a single dose of 5 htp could have caused that, it would have likely resolved within a week if that was really the problem.
5 htp is known to be controversial, it can cause heart valve damage and also it might be contaminated by peak X which can cause eosonophilia myalgia syndrome.
This syndrome interferes with histamine activity which seems to be resolved by your medication.
Histadelia can cause all the symptoms you described, if another antihistamine that has no effect on dopamine works for you it could be because of peak X.

[Mikael]

Do you have any other symptoms besides that pressure such as insomnia, sleep paralysis, short term memory loss...?
I know the study says 18g but personally I can't even go past 2g, it already gave me extreme tremors and agitation for the whole day.
Taking inositol and 5htp probably wasn't a good idea, you inhibited too much dopamine with this stack which may have caused long lasting upregulation, this might happen if you have a problem getting enough tyrosine or if you have an enzyme impairment or it could be epigenetics.
Coffee increases it because it
inhibits serotonin which is a vasoconstrictor thus alleviate headaches.
How much time have you taken this?

Hi I took inositol for a long time without any problem. I could drink coffee etc. during that time again with no problem. I used to take 200mg caffeine tablets prior to the gym and had no issue with that. And then I took 5htp 50mg (100mg tablet which I divided in two) ONCE in late September, and ever since I have this problem. :/

How do you think i could counteract this problem and alleviate it? Is effexor worth a shot for example? Bacopa is the only thing that actually helped and ive read it raises serotonin. It alleviated the head pressure and brain fog pretty much completetely, but it was only when I took it. Also tried 3-4 racetams and some other stuff and nothing there helped. Ibuprofen or similar doesnt seem to alleviate the pressure and headache much either. Acetimenophen is entirely useless it seems.

I had surgery for apendicitis as well 2 months ago and YES, a lot of insomnia since then (worse headaches and brain fog as well but it has slowly gotten a bit better at least). Even before I had a little bit of insomnia. I need a sleeping aid to help me sleep now. I tried taking clonazepam post surgery as it has always helped before, but it just caused insomnia instead :S (it may have been a one time thing though as I havent tried it again since and I took it after already not sleeping for 24 hours so maybe it would work fine now). Now I take alimemazine ie an hold antihistamine but since its related to fentiazines (old antipsychotics) it also inhibits dopamine a bit... I have to take it many hours before sleep because if I take it like 2 hours before it actually inhibits sleep for some strange reason. It worked fine for a few days and then I masturbated in the evening and after that it made sleep impossible until 5 hours after taking it. Maybe not related at all and I have no idea if masturbating actually worsens my insomnia or not as I have pretty low libido as it is anyhow.

I find it very strange that a single dose of 5 htp could have caused that, it would have likely resolved within a week if that was really the problem.
5 htp is known to be controversial, it can cause heart valve damage and also it might be contaminated by peak X which can cause eosonophilia myalgia syndrome.
This syndrome interferes with histamine activity which seems to be resolved by your medication.
Histadelia can cause all the symptoms you described, if another antihistamine that has no effect on dopamine works for you it could be because of peak X.

Hi thanks a lot for answering. I too feel like I shouldnt have to suffer symptoms for so long because of taking this once. I mean I even broke the tablet into two pieces cause I wanted to take only a little the first time. This is the product I ordered by the way:

http://www.lambertsh...tp-100mg-p8518/

I dont think there was anything wrong with the 5htp itself as I didnt get this weird headache until several hours later when I added the last 3 teaspoons of inositol per my normal intake. I googled Myalgia and EMS and that does (thank god) not sound like what im suffering with. I mean Ive had no muscle pain whatsoever or other typical symptoms just that headpressure and headaches as well as brainfog and sensitivity to food where I was never sensitive before. Ive also read that others have taken inositol and 5htp without a problem however they werent taking the dosage I was taking but rather 6-8grams.

"histadelia" doesnt seem to be a recognized condition by mainstream science and if that was my problem alimemazine should relieve the symptoms, and inositol is supposed to lower histamine levels in the brain from what ive read so not too sure. Really confused at the moment 0_o

Edited by Mikael, 04 June 2013 - 05:20 PM.

[renfr]

Do you have any other symptoms besides that pressure such as insomnia, sleep paralysis, short term memory loss...?
I know the study says 18g but personally I can't even go past 2g, it already gave me extreme tremors and agitation for the whole day.
Taking inositol and 5htp probably wasn't a good idea, you inhibited too much dopamine with this stack which may have caused long lasting upregulation, this might happen if you have a problem getting enough tyrosine or if you have an enzyme impairment or it could be epigenetics.
Coffee increases it because it
inhibits serotonin which is a vasoconstrictor thus alleviate headaches.
How much time have you taken this?

Hi I took inositol for a long time without any problem. I could drink coffee etc. during that time again with no problem. I used to take 200mg caffeine tablets prior to the gym and had no issue with that. And then I took 5htp 50mg (100mg tablet which I divided in two) ONCE in late September, and ever since I have this problem. :/

How do you think i could counteract this problem and alleviate it? Is effexor worth a shot for example? Bacopa is the only thing that actually helped and ive read it raises serotonin. It alleviated the head pressure and brain fog pretty much completetely, but it was only when I took it. Also tried 3-4 racetams and some other stuff and nothing there helped. Ibuprofen or similar doesnt seem to alleviate the pressure and headache much either. Acetimenophen is entirely useless it seems.

I had surgery for apendicitis as well 2 months ago and YES, a lot of insomnia since then (worse headaches and brain fog as well but it has slowly gotten a bit better at least). Even before I had a little bit of insomnia. I need a sleeping aid to help me sleep now. I tried taking clonazepam post surgery as it has always helped before, but it just caused insomnia instead :S (it may have been a one time thing though as I havent tried it again since and I took it after already not sleeping for 24 hours so maybe it would work fine now). Now I take alimemazine ie an hold antihistamine but since its related to fentiazines (old antipsychotics) it also inhibits dopamine a bit... I have to take it many hours before sleep because if I take it like 2 hours before it actually inhibits sleep for some strange reason. It worked fine for a few days and then I masturbated in the evening and after that it made sleep impossible until 5 hours after taking it. Maybe not related at all and I have no idea if masturbating actually worsens my insomnia or not as I have pretty low libido as it is anyhow.

I find it very strange that a single dose of 5 htp could have caused that, it would have likely resolved within a week if that was really the problem.
5 htp is known to be controversial, it can cause heart valve damage and also it might be contaminated by peak X which can cause eosonophilia myalgia syndrome.
This syndrome interferes with histamine activity which seems to be resolved by your medication.
Histadelia can cause all the symptoms you described, if another antihistamine that has no effect on dopamine works for you it could be because of peak X.

Hi thanks a lot for answering. I too feel like I shouldnt have to suffer symptoms for so long because of taking this once. I mean I even broke the tablet into two pieces cause I wanted to take only a little the first time. This is the product I ordered by the way:

http://www.lambertsh...tp-100mg-p8518/

I dont think there was anything wrong with the 5htp itself as I didnt get this weird headache until several hours later when I added the last 3 teaspoons of inositol per my normal intake. I googled Myalgia and EMS and that does (thank god) not sound like what im suffering with. I mean Ive had no muscle pain whatsoever or other typical symptoms just that headpressure and headaches as well as brainfog and sensitivity to food where I was never sensitive before. Ive also read that others have taken inositol and 5htp without a problem however they werent taking the dosage I was taking but rather 6-8grams.

"histadelia" doesnt seem to be a recognized condition by mainstream science and if that was my problem alimemazine should relieve the symptoms, and inositol is supposed to lower histamine levels in the brain from what ive read so not too sure. Really confused at the moment 0_o

Sure peak X infection would be unlikely, in that case maybe epigenetics played a role.
What is obvious is that your dopamine is too high but the fact that it manifests that way could be indicative of heavy metal poisoning such as copper toxicity and cleansing it out can take months.
Have you taken any other supplements or changed things in your lifestyle?
Does alcohol provide you any relief?
I don't think you can get tolerance from bacopa so you can use it until you find the root issue.

[Mikael]

Do you have any other symptoms besides that pressure such as insomnia, sleep paralysis, short term memory loss...?
I know the study says 18g but personally I can't even go past 2g, it already gave me extreme tremors and agitation for the whole day.
Taking inositol and 5htp probably wasn't a good idea, you inhibited too much dopamine with this stack which may have caused long lasting upregulation, this might happen if you have a problem getting enough tyrosine or if you have an enzyme impairment or it could be epigenetics.
Coffee increases it because it
inhibits serotonin which is a vasoconstrictor thus alleviate headaches.
How much time have you taken this?

Hi I took inositol for a long time without any problem. I could drink coffee etc. during that time again with no problem. I used to take 200mg caffeine tablets prior to the gym and had no issue with that. And then I took 5htp 50mg (100mg tablet which I divided in two) ONCE in late September, and ever since I have this problem. :/

How do you think i could counteract this problem and alleviate it? Is effexor worth a shot for example? Bacopa is the only thing that actually helped and ive read it raises serotonin. It alleviated the head pressure and brain fog pretty much completetely, but it was only when I took it. Also tried 3-4 racetams and some other stuff and nothing there helped. Ibuprofen or similar doesnt seem to alleviate the pressure and headache much either. Acetimenophen is entirely useless it seems.

I had surgery for apendicitis as well 2 months ago and YES, a lot of insomnia since then (worse headaches and brain fog as well but it has slowly gotten a bit better at least). Even before I had a little bit of insomnia. I need a sleeping aid to help me sleep now. I tried taking clonazepam post surgery as it has always helped before, but it just caused insomnia instead :S (it may have been a one time thing though as I havent tried it again since and I took it after already not sleeping for 24 hours so maybe it would work fine now). Now I take alimemazine ie an hold antihistamine but since its related to fentiazines (old antipsychotics) it also inhibits dopamine a bit... I have to take it many hours before sleep because if I take it like 2 hours before it actually inhibits sleep for some strange reason. It worked fine for a few days and then I masturbated in the evening and after that it made sleep impossible until 5 hours after taking it. Maybe not related at all and I have no idea if masturbating actually worsens my insomnia or not as I have pretty low libido as it is anyhow.

I find it very strange that a single dose of 5 htp could have caused that, it would have likely resolved within a week if that was really the problem.
5 htp is known to be controversial, it can cause heart valve damage and also it might be contaminated by peak X which can cause eosonophilia myalgia syndrome.
This syndrome interferes with histamine activity which seems to be resolved by your medication.
Histadelia can cause all the symptoms you described, if another antihistamine that has no effect on dopamine works for you it could be because of peak X.

Hi thanks a lot for answering. I too feel like I shouldnt have to suffer symptoms for so long because of taking this once. I mean I even broke the tablet into two pieces cause I wanted to take only a little the first time. This is the product I ordered by the way:

http://www.lambertsh...tp-100mg-p8518/

I dont think there was anything wrong with the 5htp itself as I didnt get this weird headache until several hours later when I added the last 3 teaspoons of inositol per my normal intake. I googled Myalgia and EMS and that does (thank god) not sound like what im suffering with. I mean Ive had no muscle pain whatsoever or other typical symptoms just that headpressure and headaches as well as brainfog and sensitivity to food where I was never sensitive before. Ive also read that others have taken inositol and 5htp without a problem however they werent taking the dosage I was taking but rather 6-8grams.

"histadelia" doesnt seem to be a recognized condition by mainstream science and if that was my problem alimemazine should relieve the symptoms, and inositol is supposed to lower histamine levels in the brain from what ive read so not too sure. Really confused at the moment 0_o

Sure peak X infection would be unlikely, in that case maybe epigenetics played a role.
What is obvious is that your dopamine is too high but the fact that it manifests that way could be indicative of heavy metal poisoning such as copper toxicity and cleansing it out can take months.
Have you taken any other supplements or changed things in your lifestyle?
Does alcohol provide you any relief?
I don't think you can get tolerance from bacopa so you can use it until you find the root issue.

Hmm. Why do you think my dopamine is too high? I dont know how to find the root issue at this point but I hope I can find a doctor who is willing to find it out with me. My gp was no help whatsoever he didnt even want to do a ct.

I havent tried alcohol for relief but I do not get worse headache-symptoms from bensos and I have gotten it from a lot of other stuff ive tried so maybe alcohol would be allright too. Not going to try it as Im feeling quite bad as it is already though.

[renfr]

Because your symptoms were relieved by bacopa.
Plus pressure on forehead indicates vasodilation which is due to excess dopamine.
If it isn't dopamine excess it could be abnormal vasodilation but since you have central effects such as insomnia it might not be the case.
A polysomnograph would show if you have light sleep.
And from my experience I always get the same kind of headache
Alcohol doesn't act the same way as benzos, I meant alcohol because it removes serum copper and processes it in the liver so if you get a significant relief from alcohol then you might have copper poisoning or zinc deficiency.
Surgery may have played a role with that, I'm not sure what exactly did they do or is it the appendicitis itself.
Did the pressure alleviate overtime or is it constant?
Hope you find a GP that can solve your problems.

[Tom_]

Ok, Ok...come on this is getting out of hand.

Excess copper is a completely unevidenced idea. I also am not aware of alcohol having anything to do with copper metabolism although I accept I might be wrong here.

'Dopamine excess' doesn't exist except in genetic disorders or overdose. The brain has some delightful things called negative feedback mechanisms.

The guy clearly doesn't need surgery.

A polysomnogram is expensive, over invasive and unless it shows major sleep pathology (increased AHI or REM Latencies under 7 mins) (which I imagine we are all in agreement it won't) will be completely useless.

Where the hell you got appendicitis from I haven't a clue.

And someone suggested a CT. I don't know what you are expecting to find but unless there are major changes in neuroanatomy (neoplasms etc) you won't find anything. Its like trying to diagnose mild depression from a brain scan.

Epigenetics is not a diagnosis in anyway and is about as useful as saying "I think the magic garden faeries had a hand in this".

[renfr]

I'm just giving ideas of what could it be, 5 htp might be totally unrelated with this story knowing the fact that it was a single dose, in the best case it triggered an underlying problem.
I was suggesting copper toxicity from the symptoms that are head pressure and insomnia.
If that isn't related to a neurotransmitter disorder what could it be then?
Metal toxicity can lead to permanent neurotransmitter imbalance, brain damage can lead to permanent and irreversible imbalance and so on.
The fact that bacopa alleviated the symptoms is highly indicative of a dopamone related disorder.
As for alcohol, a 1994 spanish study showed that it reduces serum copper which would alleviate copper toxicity related symptoms.
While homeostasis can occur in seconds for certain receptors it can take as long as months or even years for total recovery, it depends of the extent of this condition.
As for sleep it doesn't need highly invasive procedures, a simple muscle activity analysis (there are programs to do that) can help making distinction between light sleep and deep sleep.

[Tom_]

I meant to offense by it but these ideas are completely unrealistic or don't exist.

I agree, metal toxicity can have a terrible impact on neuro/neuropsychiatric functioning and can lead to long term/permanent impairment. Here this is almost certainly not the case. Copper toxicity would present with multiple organ system problems normally with severe symptoms. Unless he is working in a factory, has a family history of Wilsons or has a great affinity for copper supplements. There would also be very significantly raised Alibumine and ALT as well as signs of kidney disease.

'Neurotransmitter disorders' are not disorders. They don't exist. This obsession with dopamine I see with so many people on neuro forums really confuses me. Most of the problems people are asking about have very little to do dopamine in most cases (or if it does its normally noradrenaline effecting dopamine).

Nearly all of the evidence for Bacopa is via antioxidant action and effects related to glutamate. There is comparatively little evidence for its effects of dopamine.

I'll take your word on Alcohol (although i would be happy to reading the study it seems very interesting). However reducing serum copper might curtail some of the acute symptoms but he is describing chronic symptoms and if this is by some small miracle something to do with copper then I can't imagine its effects on copper would cause any relieve. Being drunk on the other hand has a habit of reducing pain and obviously reduces sleep latency.

muscle activity analysis for sleep staging is so inaccurate its pointless. The only uses for a polysomnogram IN FULL is for a diagnosis of sleep apnea and narcolepsy. A polysomnogram can give some evidence for a few other sleep disorders and suggest mood or psychotic disorders. However in both observation and careful history are the primary way for diagnosis here.

[Mikael]

I thank your both for your help. Don't think the problem has been pinpointed and Im thinking very seriuosly about ending my life at this point. I really don't want to but I have a problem with dizziness and vertigo since many years and this pressure worsens that as well (its 24/7). The thing that helped the vertigo, clonazepam, gives me insomnia these days post appendix-surgery. NO IDEA why. Oh well such is life I suppose. I have such extreme anxiety about all of this bleh, wish I could feel some peace at least.

[Tom_]

If you are having that serious a thought about ending your life I think we will both agree your problem is Major depression - its very common that people experience quite severe somatic symptoms. You need a semi emergent review by a psychiatrist, proper medical intervention and quality psychotherapy. My recommendation is you don't try, suicide is generally a bad idea - and attempts have a very low chance of succeeding with a relatively high chance of side effects.

[Guardian4981]

Mikael

I have never used that high a dosage of inositol. I wonder if the 5-htp combined with that high of inositol caused some kind of receptor change in your brain.

I have experimented with so many supplements, I feel somewhere along the way something changed me too. I used to have bad anxiety, now I have no anxiety but my libido has went down, my my suspicion in my case is somehow my brain transformed to having more serotonin and less dopamine.

I say this because I think you may want to try something that boosts dopamine like Tyrosine and see how you feel. Dopamine is more difficult to treat for the long term then serotonin and I am still trying to figure it out. But if you feel better with tyrosine that its at least a start to knowing what the issue is.

[renfr]

Mikael

I have never used that high a dosage of inositol. I wonder if the 5-htp combined with that high of inositol caused some kind of receptor change in your brain.

I have experimented with so many supplements, I feel somewhere along the way something changed me too. I used to have bad anxiety, now I have no anxiety but my libido has went down, my my suspicion in my case is somehow my brain transformed to having more serotonin and less dopamine.

I say this because I think you may want to try something that boosts dopamine like Tyrosine and see how you feel. Dopamine is more difficult to treat for the long term then serotonin and I am still trying to figure it out. But if you feel better with tyrosine that its at least a start to knowing what the issue is.

I agree with that, 18g is truly high, it's true it has been used at such dosages in a study but we're all chemically a bit different and these differences can cause significantly different results. Organ health also plays a role.
I've read stories of people using high doses of inositol and ending up with a withdrawal similar to that of SSRIs.
SSRIs increase the level of serotonin, Inositol also has been shown to increase serotonin levels and increase D2 receptor density.
Very high doses + long term use could have caused extreme serotonin downregulation and extreme dopamine upregulation which will take quite a lot of time to correct. But apparently apart from the insomnia and the pressure he doesn't have a lot of symptoms common with withdrawal such as short term memory loss.
Short term memory loss has been reported with withdrawal of SSRIs as well as Inositol and serotonin depletion has been linked with short term memory loss : http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/16705132

I thank your both for your help. Don't think the problem has been pinpointed and Im thinking very seriuosly about ending my life at this point. I really don't want to but I have a problem with dizziness and vertigo since many years and this pressure worsens that as well (its 24/7). The thing that helped the vertigo, clonazepam, gives me insomnia these days post appendix-surgery. NO IDEA why. Oh well such is life I suppose. I have such extreme anxiety about all of this bleh, wish I could feel some peace at least.

What? So the pressure isn't due to 5HTP afterall?
If you think about suicide you should truly consult a GP and maybe ask him to do an extensive blood test to find any kind of deficiency or excess that could cause these symptoms.
Could be a chronic infection, an excess of something (copper excess, calcium excess, many others can cause these symptoms) or a major deficiency, I don't think this is a permanent condition, it is only permanent until you correct the root issue.
Clonazepam is only a short term solution, it won't help you for the rest of your life, tolerance will build up and withdrawal will cause even more anxiety than the one you currently have.
You were talking about taking a SSRI, if you think about suicide don't even think about it, SSRIs can cause suicidal ideation.

I meant to offense by it but these ideas are completely unrealistic or don't exist.

I agree, metal toxicity can have a terrible impact on neuro/neuropsychiatric functioning and can lead to long term/permanent impairment. Here this is almost certainly not the case. Copper toxicity would present with multiple organ system problems normally with severe symptoms. Unless he is working in a factory, has a family history of Wilsons or has a great affinity for copper supplements. There would also be very significantly raised Alibumine and ALT as well as signs of kidney disease.

'Neurotransmitter disorders' are not disorders. They don't exist. This obsession with dopamine I see with so many people on neuro forums really confuses me. Most of the problems people are asking about have very little to do dopamine in most cases (or if it does its normally noradrenaline effecting dopamine).

Nearly all of the evidence for Bacopa is via antioxidant action and effects related to glutamate. There is comparatively little evidence for its effects of dopamine.

I'll take your word on Alcohol (although i would be happy to reading the study it seems very interesting). However reducing serum copper might curtail some of the acute symptoms but he is describing chronic symptoms and if this is by some small miracle something to do with copper then I can't imagine its effects on copper would cause any relieve. Being drunk on the other hand has a habit of reducing pain and obviously reduces sleep latency.

muscle activity analysis for sleep staging is so inaccurate its pointless. The only uses for a polysomnogram IN FULL is for a diagnosis of sleep apnea and narcolepsy. A polysomnogram can give some evidence for a few other sleep disorders and suggest mood or psychotic disorders. However in both observation and careful history are the primary way for diagnosis here.

I can't agree for Bacopa, many studies have shown its action on serotonin, here's an extract :

The ayuverdic herb is known for its anxyolitic and memory-enhancing properties and most of litterature seems to link it with increased serotonin neurotransmission as well as receptor upregulation.
One study shows that Bacopa monnieri increases serotonin and as a consequence causes a sharp decrease in dopamine content (http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/21129470).
Quote

Oral administration of BMEE improved learning and retention of memory significantly in all behavioural tasks. Following BMEE treatment, the level of serotonin (5-HT) increased while dopamine (DA) decreased significantly.
Quote

The level of 5-HT was significantly elevated up to PND-37 and was then restored to normal level on PND-53.
Interestingly, concomitant up-regulation was recorded in the mRNA expression of serotonin synthesizing enzyme tryptophan hydroxylase-2 (TPH2) and serotonin transporter (SERT) on PND-29 and PND-37, which was restored on PND-53.
Another study shows that 5HT2c is upregulated despite increased serotonin neurotransmission, apparently it induces changes in gene expression of the said receptor which is suggestive of an epigenetic induced alteration. (http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/19700373)
Bacopa therefore is interesting as it can reverse tolerance to dopaminergics, indeed there is a relationship between dopamine and serotonin, if serotonin increases dopamine decreases and so forth.
The aforementioned study explains intensively this interaction. (see Serotonin and Dopamine Interaction
http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC2612120/)

I don't think anyway this is really the place to discuss such matters but I understand what you mean by saying neurotransmitters disorders are not disorders, they're the consequence but not the cause indeed.
As for the study : http://www.ncbi.nlm..../pubmed/8016641

Edited by renfr, 06 June 2013 - 04:59 AM.

[Mikael]

What? So the pressure isn't due to 5HTP afterall?
If you think about suicide you should truly consult a GP and maybe ask him to do an extensive blood test to find any kind of deficiency or excess that could cause these symptoms.
Could be a chronic infection, an excess of something (copper excess, calcium excess, many others can cause these symptoms) or a major deficiency, I don't think this is a permanent condition, it is only permanent until you correct the root issue.
Clonazepam is only a short term solution, it won't help you for the rest of your life, tolerance will build up and withdrawal will cause even more anxiety than the one you currently have.
You were talking about taking a SSRI, if you think about suicide don't even think about it, SSRIs can cause suicidal ideation.

Yes the head pressure came along after adding 5htp 50mg. I had taken inositol off and on for a long time without a problem including without problems when I stopped taking it. It increased the effect of coffee and made you more inclined to play computer games and such thats about the only side-effects I ever had from inositol.

Clonazepam was never something I took apart from on ocassion for my dizziness. I have a rare balance disorder called mdds. Mostly women in their 40s get it, and I was 21 and am a man. Lucky me.

I got effexor from the docs when I visited them. They seemed really clueless and uninterested in my problems.

I feel suicidal because I feel so bad, not the other way around. Oh well.

[Tom_]

I should have done this properly - lot of questions coming your way, answer them as best you can. The three possibilities I am considering at the moment (and likely going to end up with the same or nearly the same treatment) are in no order; MDDs, Psych related (anxiety, depression, somatiziation) or chronic tension headache, as likely as not its some delightful mix of all three. I'll refer to it as a headache.

Has anything helped? What?
How old are you?
What sex?
What medical (including psychiatric) disorders have you been diagnosed with?
When was your last blood test and what were the results (the more in-depth the better)?
How tall are you and how much do you weigh?
How much physical activity do you get?
Are you employed? Not employed? What do you spend most of your day doing?
Do you have any pain problems - excluding the headache.
Where do you feel the headache?
How constant is it? Does it come and go, move, change? Do you feel it every day, most days, about half, less than half?
What drug treatments have you tried for it? (any pain killers - paracetamol, aspirin etc?) What does the benzo do to it?
Do you take pain killers often?
How is your apetite? Do you like Carbs, fats, salty food...?
Is there any major or chronic stressors? This would include stuff like rape, war but equally important and just as bad are things 'everybody' gets.
Do you have thoughts of suicide or deliberate self harm? If yes have you ever acted on them? How often? (I know you have thought about it) have you made a plan and/or are you self harming.
How would you describe your psychomotor activity? Excessive, normal or decreased?
Would you describe your anxiety as generalized, panic (attacks), obsessive or phobic (or which ones?)
Do you/have you abused regularly any substances? what type/s? was there addiction?

I may have follow up questions.

The G.P might not be very nice but the prescription for venlafaxine was a fairly reasonable move. Its used a lot for headache.

Edited by Tom_, 06 June 2013 - 10:34 AM.

[Guardian4981]

Mikael

What is your appetite like?

If you have excessive serotonin then your appetite will be very low.

[Tom_]

That is the biggest and most illogical generalization I've come across in the last month.

[Mikael]

I should have done this properly - lot of questions coming your way, answer them as best you can. The three possibilities I am considering at the moment (and likely going to end up with the same or nearly the same treatment) are in no order; MDDs, Psych related (anxiety, depression, somatiziation) or chronic tension headache, as likely as not its some delightful mix of all three. I'll refer to it as a headache.

Has anything helped? What? Bacopa Monnieri helped at first and I stopped taking it and tried some other supplements (nootropics basically. The last one I tried, gotu kola, made my rocking vertigo much worse), when I tried the bacopa again it wasnt as helpful as it also made the rocking slightly worse (perhaps it did that when I started it as well but the rocking was supermild back then so it wasnt a problem to continue taking it. If I hadnt gotten appendicitis I would have slowly increased the bacopa again to see if it would help as before. Post appendicitis I havent dared try it (yet).

How old are you? 25

What sex? Male

What medical (including psychiatric) disorders have you been diagnosed with? Mal de debarquement syndrome (5 years now), OCD, Rosacea, chronic prostatitis

When was your last blood test and what were the results (the more in-depth the better)? Don't know unfortunately and not sure they've ever done a thourough one

How tall are you and how much do you weigh? 182cm and about 74kg

How much physical activity do you get? Trying to take a walk every day and either jog or go to the gym most days. Running in particular is somewhat helpful for anxiety and doesnt worsen the headache (except immediately afterwards perhaps but soon settles)

Are you employed? Not employed? What do you spend most of your day doing? Unemployed. Spending a lot of my days at home when Im not out walking or exercising. Trying to meet a friend or two in the evening.

Do you have any pain problems - excluding the headache. Some chronic pain in my arms from an injury 8 years ago. Very mild unless aggravated by a lot of computerwork or similar

Where do you feel the headache? Difficult to pinpoint, more around temples

How constant is it? Does it come and go, move, change? Do you feel it every day, most days, about half, less than half? Pretty constant. Can move around. Associated with the pressure is a sense of dislocation in my head. Hard to explain but confusion is the best term I suppose. Doesn't really change. It becomes very pronounced by a lot of things such as most meds (it seems), some food,

What drug treatments have you tried for it? (any pain killers - paracetamol, aspirin etc?) What does the benzo do to it? Painkillers seem to do either nothing or help only a little bit (ibuprofen) or just worsen it a bit (acetaminophen). Clonazepam seems to help my rocking vertigo (mdds) and doesnt worsen the head pressure, perhaps even improves it a little.

Do you take pain killers often? no

How is your apetite? Do you like Carbs, fats, salty food...? I eat only fresh food at this point and have been for over a month. Basically brown rice some fresh meat and veggies. Organic rice "cookies" as a "snack".

Is there any major or chronic stressors? This would include stuff like rape, war but equally important and just as bad are things 'everybody' gets. Just life I suppose

Do you have thoughts of suicide or deliberate self harm? If yes have you ever acted on them? How often? (I know you have thought about it) have you made a plan and/or are you self harming. I have thoughts of suicide every day, I'd say at least once an hour if not more. Haven't acted on them. basically the only thing I can think about when it gets really bad. I must stress that its not the headache thats the worst problem, its the rocking vertigo. The latter has become worse ever since the headpressure started. The head pressure is quite annoying etc. but its not something that would make me consider suicide if I didnt also have mdds.

How would you describe your psychomotor activity? Excessive, normal or decreased? Anything from normal to excessive to decreased depending on if Im feeling high anxiety or bad depression or having a day of the resemblance of semi-decent emotions.

Would you describe your anxiety as generalized, panic (attacks), obsessive or phobic (or which ones?)

Do you/have you abused regularly any substances? what type/s? was there addiction? No substance abuse ever. havent had alcohol since last summer for example. Was somewhat addicted to porn but have stopped all that and very rarely masturbate now.


Ive been thinking some more and I suppose what couldve happened is some excessive serotonin or similar because of 5htp and inositol. Not sure but thats what Im guessing at. Perhaps some damage to serotonin receptors or something, perhaps something that could be compensated by adding an ssri or similar. Who knows.

xanax was a failure btw. Worse headache, worse vertigo and hence no anxietyrelief really. I also felt extremely suicidal when I took it, had to really hold on to the notion that it likely was the xanax that was part of the problem there.