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The Vitamin Myth: Why We Think We Need Supplements

vitamins supplements linus pauling vitamin c

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#1 smithx

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Posted 20 July 2013 - 09:07 AM


This entire article is a very good read, but I will only quote the part dealing with vitamins.

The author's thesis is that the current enthusiasm for vitamins and supplements is almost entirely due to Linus Pauling's misguided championing of them at the end of a very long and influential career. and that studies have consistently shown that vitamin supplementation is actually harmful.

For the full article, see here: http://www.theatlant...in-myth/277947/

...

The turning point came in March 1966, when Pauling was 65 years old. He had just received the Carl Neuberg Medal. "During a talk in New York City," recalled Pauling, "I mentioned how much pleasure I took in reading about the discoveries made by scientists in their various investigations of the nature of the world, and stated that I hoped I could live another twenty-five years in order to continue to have this pleasure. On my return to California I received a letter from a biochemist, Irwin Stone, who had been at the talk. He wrote that if I followed his recommendation of taking 3,000 milligrams of vitamin C, I would live not only 25 years longer, but probably more." Stone, who referred to himself as Dr. Stone, had spent two years studying chemistry in college. Later, he received an honorary degree from the Los Angeles College of Chiropractic and a "PhD" from Donsbach University, a non-accredited correspondence school in Southern California.

Pauling followed Stone's advice. "I began to feel livelier and healthier," he said. "In particular, the severe colds I had suffered several times a year all my life no longer occurred. After a few years, I increased my intake of vitamin C to ten times, then twenty times, and then three hundred times the RDA: now 18,000 milligrams per day."

From that day forward, people would remember Linus Pauling for one thing: vitamin C.

In 1970, Pauling published Vitamin C and the Common Cold, urging the public to take 3,000 milligrams of vitamin C every day (about 50 times the recommended daily allowance). Pauling believed that the common cold would soon be a historical footnote. "It will take decades to eradicate the common cold completely," he wrote, "but it can, I believe, be controlled entirely in the United States and some other countries within a few years. I look forward to witnessing this step toward a better world." Pauling's book became an instant best seller. Paperback versions were printed in 1971 and 1973, and an expanded edition titled Vitamin C, the Common Cold and the Flu, published three years later, promised to ward off a predicted swine flu pandemic. Sales of vitamin C doubled, tripled, and quadrupled. Drugstores couldn't keep up with demand. By the mid-1970s, 50 million Americans were following Pauling's advice. Vitamin manufacturers called it "the Linus Pauling effect."

Scientists weren't as enthusiastic. On December 14, 1942, about thirty years before Pauling published his first book, Donald Cowan, Harold Diehl, and Abe Baker, from the University of Minnesota, published a paper in the Journal of the American Medical Association titled "Vitamins for the Prevention of Colds." The authors concluded, "Under the conditions of this controlled study, in which 980 colds were treated . . . there is no indication that vitamin C alone, an antihistamine alone, or vitamin C plus an antihistamine have any important effect on the duration or severity of infections of the upper respiratory tract."

Other studies followed. After Pauling's pronouncement, researchers at the University of Maryland gave 3,000 milligrams of vitamin C every day for three weeks to eleven volunteers and a sugar pill (placebo) to ten others. Then they infected volunteers with a common cold virus. All developed cold symptoms of similar duration. At the University of Toronto, researchers administered vitamin C or placebo to 3,500 volunteers. Again, vitamin C didn't prevent colds, even in those receiving as much as 2,000 milligrams a day. In 2002, researchers in the Netherlands administered multivitamins or placebo to more than 600 volunteers. Again, no difference. At least 15 studies have now shown that vitamin C doesn't treat the common cold. As a consequence, neither the FDA, the American Academy of Pediatrics, the American Medical Association, the American Dietetic Association, the Center for Human Nutrition at the Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health, nor the Department of Health and Human Services recommend supplemental vitamin C for the prevention or treatment of colds.

Although study after study showed that he was wrong, Pauling refused to believe it, continuing to promote vitamin C in speeches, popular articles, and books. When he occasionally appeared before the media with obvious cold symptoms, he said he was suffering from allergies.

Then Linus Pauling upped the ante. He claimed that vitamin C not only prevented colds; it cured cancer.
In 1971, Pauling received a letter from Ewan Cameron, a Scottish surgeon from a tiny hospital outside Glasgow. Cameron wrote that cancer patients who were treated with ten grams of vitamin C every day had fared better than those who weren't. Pauling was ecstatic. He decided to publish Cameron's findings in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences (PNAS). Pauling assumed that as a member of the academy he could publish a paper in PNAS whenever he wanted; only three papers submitted by academy members had been rejected in more than half a century. Pauling's paper was rejected anyway, further tarnishing his reputation among scientists. Later, the paper was published in Oncology, a journal for cancer specialists. When researchers evaluated the data, the flaw became obvious: the cancer victims Cameron had treated with vitamin C were healthier at the start of therapy, so their outcomes were better. After that, scientists no longer took Pauling's claims about vitamins seriously.

But Linus Pauling still had clout with the media. In 1971, he declared that vitamin C would cause a 10 percent decrease in deaths from cancer. In 1977, he went even further. "My present estimate is that a decrease of 75 percent can be achieved with vitamin C alone," he wrote, "and a further decrease by use of other nutritional supplements." With cancer in their rearview mirror, Pauling predicted, Americans would live longer, healthier lives. "Life expectancy will be 100 to 110 years," he said, "and in the course of time, the maximum age might be 150 years."

Cancer victims now had reason for hope. Wanting to participate in the Pauling miracle, they urged their doctors to give them massive doses of vitamin C. "For about seven or eight years, we were getting a lot of requests from our families to use high-dose vitamin C," recalls John Maris, chief of oncology and director of the Center for Childhood Cancer Research at the Children's Hospital of Philadelphia. "We struggled with that. They would say, 'Doctor, do you have a Nobel Prize?' "

Blindsided, cancer researchers decided to test Pauling's theory. Charles Moertel, of the Mayo Clinic, evaluated 150 cancer victims: half received ten grams of vitamin C a day and half didn't. The vitamin C-treated group showed no difference in symptoms or mortality. Moertel concluded, "We were unable to show a therapeutic benefit of high-dose vitamin C." Pauling was outraged. He wrote an angry letter to the New England Journal of Medicine, which had published the study, claiming that Moertel had missed the point. Of course vitamin C hadn't worked: Moertel had treated patients who had already received chemotherapy. Pauling claimed that vitamin C worked only if cancer victims had received no prior chemotherapy.

Bullied, Moertel performed a second study; the results were the same. Moertel concluded, "Among patients with measurable disease, none had objective improvement. It can be concluded that high-dose vitamin C therapy is not effective against advanced malignant disease regardless of whether the patient had received any prior chemotherapy." For most doctors, this was the end of it. But not for Linus Pauling. He was simply not to be contradicted. Cameron observed, "I have never seen him so upset. He regards the whole affair as a personal attack on his integrity." Pauling thought Moertel's study was a case of "fraud and deliberate misrepresentation." He consulted lawyers about suing Moertel, but they talked him out of it.
Subsequent studies have consistently shown that vitamin C doesn't treat cancer.

Pauling wasn't finished. Next, he claimed that vitamin C, when taken with massive doses of vitamin A (25,000 international units) and vitamin E (400 to 1,600 IU), as well as selenium (a basic element) and beta-carotene (a precursor to vitamin A), could do more than just prevent colds and treat cancer; they could treat virtually every disease known to man. Pauling claimed that vitamins and supplements could cure heart disease, mental illness, pneumonia, hepatitis, polio, tuberculosis, measles, mumps, chickenpox, meningitis, shingles, fever blisters, cold sores, canker sores, warts, aging, allergies, asthma, arthritis, diabetes, retinal detachment, strokes, ulcers, shock, typhoid fever, tetanus, dysentery, whooping cough, leprosy, hay fever, burns, fractures, wounds, heat prostration, altitude sickness, radiation poisoning, glaucoma, kidney failure, influenza, bladder ailments, stress, rabies, and snakebites. When the AIDS virus entered the United States in the 1970s, Pauling claimed vitamins could treat that, too.

On April 6, 1992, the cover of Time--rimmed with colorful pills and capsules--declared, "The Real Power of Vitamins: New research shows they may help fight cancer, heart disease, and the ravages of aging." The article, written by Anastasia Toufexis, echoed Pauling's ill-founded, disproved notions about the wonders of megavitamins. "More and more scientists are starting to suspect that traditional medical views of vitamins and minerals have been too limited," wrote Toufexis. "Vitamins--often in doses much higher than those usually recommended--may protect against a host of ills ranging from birth defects and cataracts to heart disease and cancer. Even more provocative are glimmerings that vitamins can stave off the normal ravages of aging." Toufexis enthused that the "pharmaceutical giant Hoffman-La Roche is so enamored with beta-carotene that it plans to open a Freeport, Texas, plant next year that will churn out 350 tons of the nutrient annually, or enough to supply a daily 6 milligram capsule to virtually every American adult."

The National Nutritional Foods Association (NNFA), a lobbying group for vitamin manufacturers, couldn't believe its good luck, calling the Time article "a watershed event for the industry." As part of an effort to get the FDA off their backs, the NNFA distributed multiple copies of the magazine to every member of Congress. Speaking at an NNFA trade show later in 1992, Toufexis said, "In fifteen years at Time I have written many health covers. But I have never seen anything like the response to the vitamin cover. It whipped off the sales racks, and we were inundated with requests for copies. There are no more copies. 'Vitamins' is the number-one-selling issue so far this year."

Although studies had failed to support him, Pauling believed that vitamins and supplements had one property that made them cure-alls, a property that continues to be hawked on everything from ketchup to pomegranate juice and that rivals words like natural and organic for sales impact: antioxidant.

Antioxidation vs. oxidation has been billed as a contest between good and evil. The battle takes place in cellular organelles called mitochondria, where the body converts food to energy, a process that requires oxygen and so is called oxidation. One consequence of oxidation is the generation of electron scavengers called free radicals (evil). Free radicals can damage DNA, cell membranes, and the lining of arteries; not surprisingly, they've been linked to aging, cancer, and heart disease. To neutralize free radicals, the body makes its own antioxidants (good). Antioxidants can also be found in fruits and vegetables--specifically, selenium, beta-carotene, and vitamins A, C, and E. Studies have shown that people who eat more fruits and vegetables have a lower incidence of cancer and heart disease and live longer. The logic is obvious: if fruits and vegetables contain antioxidants--and people who eat lots of fruits and vegetables are healthier--then people who take supplemental antioxidants should also be healthier.

In fact, they're less healthy.

In 1994, the National Cancer Institute, in collaboration with Finland's National Public Health Institute, studied 29,000 Finnish men, all long-term smokers more than fifty years old. This group was chosen because they were at high risk for cancer and heart disease. Subjects were given vitamin E, beta-carotene, both, or neither. The results were clear: those taking vitamins and supplements were more likely to die from lung cancer or heart disease than those who didn't take them--the opposite of what researchers had anticipated.
In 1996, investigators from the Fred Hutchinson Cancer Research Center, in Seattle, studied 18,000 people who, because they had been exposed to asbestos, were at increased risk of lung cancer. Again, subjects received vitamin A, beta-carotene, both, or neither. Investigators ended the study abruptly when they realized that those who took vitamins and supplements were dying from cancer and heart disease at rates 28 and 17 percent higher, respectively, than those who didn't.

In 2004, researchers from the University of Copenhagen reviewed fourteen randomized trials involving more than 170,000 people who took vitamins A, C, E, and beta-carotene to see whether antioxidants could prevent intestinal cancers. Again, antioxidants didn't live up to the hype. The authors concluded, "We could not find evidence that antioxidant supplements can prevent gastrointestinal cancers; on the contrary, they seem to increase overall mortality." When these same researchers evaluated the seven best studies, they found that death rates were 6 percent higher in those taking vitamins.

In 2005, researchers from Johns Hopkins School of Medicine evaluated nineteen studies involving more than 136,000people and found an increased risk of death associated with supplemental vitamin E. Dr. Benjamin Caballero, director of the Center for Human Nutrition at the Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health, said, "This reaffirms what others have said. The evidence for supplementing with any vitamin, particularly vitamin E, is just not there. This idea that people have that [vitamins] will not hurt them may not be that simple." That same year, a study published in the Journal of theAmerican Medical Association evaluated more than 9,000 people who took high-dose vitamin E to prevent cancer; those who took vitamin E were more likely to develop heart failure than those who didn't.

In 2007, researchers from the National Cancer Institute examined 11,000 men who did or didn't take multivitamins. Those who took multivitamins were twice as likely to die from advanced prostate cancer.
In 2008, a review of all existing studies involving more than 230,000 people who did or did not receive supplemental antioxidants found that vitamins increased the risk of cancer and heart disease.

On October 10, 2011, researchers from the University of Minnesota evaluated 39,000 older women and found that those who took supplemental multivitamins, magnesium, zinc, copper, and iron died at rates higher than those who didn't. They concluded, "Based on existing evidence, we see little justification for the general and widespread use of dietary supplements."

Two days later, on October 12, researchers from the Cleveland Clinic published the results of a study of 36,000 men who took vitamin E, selenium, both, or neither. They found that those receiving vitamin E had a 17 percent greater risk of prostate cancer. In response to the study, Steven Nissen, chairman of cardiology at the Cleveland Clinic, said, "The concept of multivitamins was sold to Americans by an eager nutraceutical industry to generate profits. There was never any scientific data supporting their usage." On October 25, a headline in the Wall Street Journal asked, "Is This the End of Popping Vitamins?" Studies haven't hurt sales. In 2010, the vitamin industry grossed $28 billion, up 4.4 percent from the year before. "The thing to do with [these reports] is just ride them out," said Joseph Fortunato, chief executive of General Nutrition Centers. "We see no impact on our business."

How could this be? Given that free radicals clearly damage cells--and given that people who eat diets rich in substances that neutralize free radicals are healthier--why did studies of supplemental antioxidants show they were harmful? The most likely explanation is that free radicals aren't as evil as advertised. Although it's clear that free radicals can damage DNA and disrupt cell membranes, that's not always a bad thing. People need free radicals to kill bacteria and eliminate new cancer cells. But when people take large doses of antioxidants, the balance between free radical production and destruction might tip too much in one direction, causing an unnatural state in which the immune system is less able to kill harmful invaders.

Researchers have called this "the antioxidant paradox." Whatever the reason, the data are clear: high doses of vitamins and supplements increase the risk of heart disease and cancer; for this reason, not a single national or international organization responsible for the public's health recommends them.

...



#2 sthira

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Posted 20 July 2013 - 10:40 PM

... the data are clear: high doses of vitamins and supplements increase the risk of heart disease and cancer; for this reason, not a single national or international organization responsible for the public's health recommends them.

...


Good post, thanks.

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#3 adamh

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Posted 20 July 2013 - 11:52 PM

Lets all flog the dead horse, its so much fun. Megavitamin dosing has been out for quite some time except for a few dangerous diseases and then its kind of a desperate last ditch measure.

>and that studies have consistently shown that vitamin supplementation is actually harmful.

This is completely false and irresponsible. I've seen a number of vitamin and other supplement studies that seemed to have been set up to fail. They used megadoses or underdosed or used the wrong form of a vitamin. For example in the recent vitamin e study that seemed to show vitamin e was actually bad for your health. All they really showed was that commercial alpha tocopherol e should not be taken by itself. There are 8 forms of e, 4 tocopherols and 4 tocotrienols. To use a large amount of one will tend to push the others aside and make them harder to absorb.

This is like something opales would write.
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#4 joelcairo

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Posted 21 July 2013 - 12:36 AM

Anyone who is attempting to debunk Linus Pauling, and is still belaboring decades-old studies of vitamin C and vitamin E, is operating on a mindset that's about 30 years out of date. There have been thousands of studies evaluating hundreds of natural substances in the meantime. To believe that anything has been "consistently" shown in all these studies is an absurdity.
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#5 1kgcoffee

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Posted 21 July 2013 - 01:05 AM

Linus Pauling lived to the age of 93 in good health.

Studies which have been done are far from conclusive. Many are poorly constructed and compartmentalized in nature, for example using synthetic derivatives in sub-optimal testing conditions. The other problem is that 'orthomolecular' medicine hasn't fully appreciated the use of phytochemicals.
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#6 Luddist

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Posted 21 July 2013 - 06:14 AM

Man, that last bit...

In May 1980, during an interview at Oregon State University, Linus Pauling was asked, "Does vitamin C have any side effects on long-term use of, let's say, gram quantities?" Pauling's answer was quick and decisive. "No," he replied.

Seven months later, his wife was dead of stomach cancer. In 1994, Linus Pauling died of prostate cancer.


is terrible writing.

But the article is not bad. Vitamin E's complexities really need to be sorted out. There is so much evidence behind supplementing high doses of alpha tocopherol being harmful, it's peculiar that supplement makers haven't stopped marketing their 400IU+ alpha tocopherol supplements. This shows they are only willing to change based on customer demand, and articles like this can help illuminate that and maybe change it.

#7 joelcairo

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Posted 21 July 2013 - 07:13 AM

Wow, just wow, what a despicable way to end the article. Thanks for pointing that out.

And I basically agree about alpha tocopherol. I have no problems with straightforward factual assertions that don't go beyond the available evidence, and from the research I have personally done, I don't think it would be of value for me. So I don't take it.

Edited by joelcairo, 21 July 2013 - 07:19 AM.


#8 Dorian Grey

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Posted 21 July 2013 - 07:45 AM

Gosh, if only we could find a way to strip all the remaining evil vitamins, minerals and nutrients out out of the foods we eat, we might be able to live forever!

Oh wait... Modern agriculture already utilizes badly depleted soils and feeds animals in factory farms junk food; and modern food processing destroys most of the nutrients that remain.

Problem solved... Fast food is the new health food!

Edited by synesthesia, 21 July 2013 - 07:53 AM.


#9 dz93

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Posted 21 July 2013 - 08:10 AM

Gosh, if only we could find a way to strip all the remaining evil vitamins, minerals and nutrients out out of the foods we eat, we might be able to live forever!

Oh wait... Modern agriculture already utilizes badly depleted soils and feeds animals in factory farms junk food; and modern food processing destroys most of the nutrients that remain.

Problem solved... Fast food is the new health food!

Lol at the people who think vitamins are good for you.

#10 Dorian Grey

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Posted 21 July 2013 - 04:33 PM

Behind the sarcasm of my post above there is a kernel of truth that is worth pondering...

Modern diets do result in deficiencies.

Look here: http://www.ars.usda....bles2001-02.pdf (from USDA)

"Percentage of Americans with Inadequate Intakes from Food Based on Estimated Average Requirements".

(at the bottom of page 8) 93% of Americans are not getting enough Vitamin-E from dietary sources! A reliable fact.

Now lets look at a major health problem in America... Fatty liver disease.

Look Here: http://ndnr.com/web-...-liver-disease/ (In Statistics)

"The Statistics regarding the growth of NAFLD and NASH are frightening. Of all cases of liver disease, 25% are due to NAFLD. It is estimated that 25-35% of the US population has NAFLD". "Approximately 70% of type 2 diabetic patients have NAFLD and 5%-20% of type 2 diabetics will develop NASH-based cirrhosis as a result".

THAT'S A LOT OF LIVER TRANSPLANTS SOMEONE IS GOING TO HAVE TO PAY FOR!

And what's the best "treatment" to halt progression of NASH to advanced/end stage disease? Well, according to the PIVENS trial/study on NASH, high dose Vitamin-E works better than any medicine known to man...

http://www.medscape....warticle/721221

"Study Confirms Benefits of Vitamin E in Nonalcoholic Steatohepatitis"

"NASH, for which there is no approved therapy, affects about 4% of the American population, and about 15% of patients with NASH progress to cirrhosis. It is associated with fatty liver disease, insulin resistance, and obesity"

"Supplementation with the natural form of vitamin E (800 IU/day) has beneficial effects in patients with nonalcoholic steatohepatitis (NASH), but pioglitazone's benefits are less clear"

--------------------------------------

Laugh all you want; this is a legitimate example of how supplementation may help a substantial portion of the population and reduce the enormous cost of treating those with dietary deficiencies and the diseases that result from them. Of course we could always ramp-up our transplant facilities and tax working populations to pay for new epidemics of disease and disability too!

Edited by synesthesia, 21 July 2013 - 04:45 PM.

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#11 Dolph

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Posted 21 July 2013 - 04:58 PM

Megadosing was a strange concept from the beginning and its proponents weren't less strange in many cases...
Niacin may be the only vitamin that is really somewhat useful in supraphysiological doses. But in this case it should be viewed as a drug of course, as it doesn't have vitamin-like effects at that range.

BUT it's possibly necessary to remind that there are still some problems in reaching physiological levels of several vitamins through normal nutrition. In the US for example flour gets fortified with folic acid and incidence of spina bifida has been reduced significantly. In other countries medical organizations are very critical of food fortification and women are actively encouraged to supplement folic acid, for example in Germany.

#12 Dorian Grey

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Posted 21 July 2013 - 05:39 PM

Fortification of foods is an interesting topic as it represents "involuntary supplementation" of all citizens.

Iron fortification of foods is an example of how blanket supplementation without consideration to individual needs can be problematic. Without supplemental iron, a substantial percentage of menstruating women will become anemic, however iron tends to accumulate in males as they age and evidence is beginning to pile-up this iron elevation in men is causing problems.

I'm a big believer is supplementation tailored to the individual, and adjusted for age, environment, sex and medical conditions. I don't need iron fortification of my food or fluoridation of my water, but I get it without choice. Now, at the same time, some wish to prohibit me from taking supplements I really do need for optimal health based on my own personal physiology. Give me unadulterated food, clean pure water, and the FREEDOM to choose to supplement vitamins and nutrients specific to my needs!

I realize this is asking a lot, but I shall continue to ask for these basic rights as Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of healthiness is something everyone should be entitled to.

Edited by synesthesia, 21 July 2013 - 05:48 PM.

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#13 Dolph

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Posted 21 July 2013 - 05:47 PM

Iron fortification of foods is an example of how blanket supplementation without consideration to individual needs can be problematic. Without supplemental iron, a substantial percentage of menstruating women will become anemic, however iron tends to accumulate in males as they age and evidence is beginning to pile-up this iron elevation in men is causing problems.



Iron fortification of foodstaples would be actually pretty crazy. Is this really done somewhere?
EDIT/
Thinking about it I believe to remember that Kellogg's Crap is sometimes advertised for containing iron, but that's a part of the grocery store I never waste my time in.
EDIT2/ If any fortification I think folic acid may be the most sane one.

Edited by Dolph, 21 July 2013 - 05:50 PM.


#14 Dorian Grey

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Posted 21 July 2013 - 05:53 PM

In America, ALL flour, cereals, rice and even infant formula; and therefore the majority of all meals from cradle to grave are fortified with iron by law... A large percentage of seniors develop elevated ferritin (stored iron) and some are beginning to believe they are paying dearly for this as heart disease, cancer and Alzheimer's are all associated with iron overload.

Madness to be sure, and as we all know, "madness takes its toll".

Edited by synesthesia, 21 July 2013 - 06:01 PM.


#15 Dolph

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Posted 21 July 2013 - 06:03 PM

In America, ALL flour, cereals, rice and even infant formula; and therefore the majority of all meals from cradle to grave are fortified with iron by law... A large percentage of seniors develop elevated ferritin (stored iron) and some are beginning to believe they are paying dearly for this.




Wow, I'm really more than surprised to read that. Pretty difficult for an average person to avoid that.
There is this theory, that premenopausal women are protected from CVD partly because of their monthly iron losses. This spontanously came to my mind somehow.

#16 Dorian Grey

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Posted 21 July 2013 - 06:38 PM

Yes! Although a disturbing number of men develop heart disease in their 40's/50's, heart disease is females is almost unheard of until they have stopped menstruating, and start accumulating iron for 5 to 10 years... By age 75 (about 25 years after menopause), female iron loading is nearly equal that of senior men (ELEVATED!), and surprise... Heart disease is then a leading killer of females too.

Doctors used to think it was estrogen that protected females from heart disease, but hormone replacement therapy fails miserably at keeping senior women free from heart problems.

Unfortunately,in America the involuntary iron supplementation from fortified foods never ends no matter how high one's stored iron climbs. More is always better when it comes to iron; or so some believe. I think those who need iron should have the FREEDOM to take it, and those who don't shouldn't have supplemental iron forced on them if they'd prefer not to keep boosting iron higher throughout their lives.

Edited by synesthesia, 21 July 2013 - 06:42 PM.

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#17 Dolph

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Posted 21 July 2013 - 06:44 PM

Yeah, good intentions gone bad.
I think this also is a good lesson when considering individual supplementation of whatever it may be. The hype and the initial euphoria is hardly ever justified, so it may be wise to step back a little and take the most conservative approach possible.

#18 cuprous

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Posted 21 July 2013 - 09:16 PM

I would argue that most of us here are not on the vitamin bandwagon.. except maybe Vitamin D3 and vitamin C on a prophylactic level. C60oo, astragalus root, NAC, astaxanthin, etc, etc are of course too far outside common knowledge to write about in a major publication like the Atlantic.
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#19 sthira

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Posted 22 July 2013 - 01:19 AM

Yeah, I avoid processed foods that are fortified with iron and fortified with any other added component. I don't know why any person concerned about their health would eat the stuff. We do have dietary freedom. In fact, we may now have more dietary choices than ever before in human history. The soil-depletion argument seems weak. And you can chose to eat organic, local, and find small farmers who love their land, love their dirt, love their fruits & vegetables.

Meanwhile, RDA science is solid. The cronometer is a useful tool. What I can't get through diet, I supplement in a targeted manner: B12, D, zinc, other components, too. The more exotic, experimental supplements and drugs (c60oo, astragalus, resveratrol...) I just don't know I'll take the risk wirh my own personal health. I respect and admire those who do, and I benefit when self-expirimenters then honestly report their n=1 findings.
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#20 smithx

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Posted 23 July 2013 - 07:51 PM

The question of whether antioxidants as supplements are actually good for us or not is one which I am interested in.

After all, the body uses oxygen and oxidative reactions in huge numbers of important metabolic processes. Antioxidants appearing in the wrong places or at the wrong times would be likely to be counter-productive.

#21 Dolph

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Posted 23 July 2013 - 07:56 PM

I'm somewhat surprised that in the year 2013 some people still talk about antioxidants. The whole idea of their aleged benefits came from epidemiological studies but in RCTs it has been shown time after time to be meaningless AT BEST. It seems to be the same story over and over and over again...
We can bet what the next "big thing" will be that miserably fails in a large RCT. Vitamin D? Vitamin K2? It's really tiresome by now.

#22 pamojja

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Posted 23 July 2013 - 10:08 PM

Well, I certainly though most of my life I wouldn't need any supplements. Fast forward with lots of assaults to my health leaving my immunity trying to resist being overdriven to itself (7 malarias, NAFLD, spine infection...) such thoughts came to a full stop with a bid of burn-out strewn in at age above 40, igniting a 80% percent blockage at my abdominal aorta, or PAD as it is called - practically shorting my pain-free walking distance down to mere 3-400 meter.

Conventional medicine had only Aspirin and Statin to offer. Beside that my diagnosing Internist meant I could do what ever I want: taking pills, changing lifestyle and diet, that wouldn't change anything about the statistical certainty that 30% with my condition would be death after 5 years. I also was offered a replacement of my aorta with a goretex-like tube. My reservations about such drastic and not sufficiently long enough tested intervention were played down with the fact, that my life-expectancy wouldn't be anywhere worthwhile to speak of anyway...

I such a tire situation one happily grabs any straw of hope with only a little anecdotal evidence, anything other than that standard of today's 'evidence based medicine' where anything, like 1 in about 30 pill poppers with thereby not reduced mortality goes (as with statin or ASS and my condition - seems rather a very crude form of Russian roulette to me..).

I started with Pauling's Therapy and then gradually refined my mega-dosing micro-nutrient intake over the years. However, the largest increase in pain-free walking distance up to 2 hrs was with my first year of Pauling's. Therefore, all my respect to this genius quack - all my disdain to conventional medicine.

Sorry for this ranting about. But this 'myth', call it placebo if you like (even though my debilitation improved to such extent which really mean 'quality years' to me - the main aortic blockage remained at 80% nevertheless...) - I love the many beneficial side effects. Like not having had even one sun-burn since I use antioxidants - now almost since 5 years. Now I wouldn't want to trade that for a hormetic response I overstretched so much all my life...

#23 hamishm00

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Posted 24 July 2013 - 06:33 AM

The question of whether antioxidants as supplements are actually good for us or not is one which I am interested in.

After all, the body uses oxygen and oxidative reactions in huge numbers of important metabolic processes. Antioxidants appearing in the wrong places or at the wrong times would be likely to be counter-productive.


I take a lot of supplements, but none of them for their antioxidant properties (notwithstanding the fact that they make be marketed by supplement manufacturers and retails as such). Curcumin, green tea and resveratrol are all marketed as antioxidants, but their health benefits don't come from antioxidant action (as once thought). Keap1-Nrf2 pathway activation and the activation of multiple genes and associated pathways are implicated here.

Perhaps your question is therefore somewhat misdirected. Don't focus on the antioxidant nature of supplements, but rather why some traditional antioxidant supplements have health benefits, regardless of whether or not the antioxidant activity of the supplement is harmful or beneficial.
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#24 majkinetor

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Posted 24 July 2013 - 11:20 AM

This entire article is a very good read


Good read for whom ? Retard ?

The article is pure and utter nonsense like all other articles from the same author. When you say "all vitamins are bad" recognize that we are talking about hundreeds or even thousands of compounds most of them fundamentally different from eachother. Such inappropriate and malicious way to end the article, shows clearly that hidden agenda is present. People should think twice before reading anything that Offit has to say.
He is dangerous quack.

The article is by the book example of cherry picking and ad hominem. For instance Moertel studies are long time ago shown as not replication of Pauling studies just as he rightfully claimed.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC2981594/

Pauling was more right then wrong in any case. Recent flurry of papers related to vitamin C anticancer activity clearly shows that.

Edited by majkinetor, 24 July 2013 - 11:21 AM.

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#25 burungnasar

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Posted 24 July 2013 - 12:05 PM

I always find it a tad strange that people automatically associate antioxidants with supplements. Are antioxidants from food somehow magical?

#26 majkinetor

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Posted 24 July 2013 - 12:42 PM

But this 'myth', call it placebo if you like


Placebo effect diminishes with duration of use to become non-existent. So if it works for 5 years, its unlikely its placebo but real effect.
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#27 pamojja

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Posted 24 July 2013 - 01:43 PM

If such article are considered a 'good read' I can only explain it with never having taken a look at the original research, it's ambiguities, or even checked the references and than searched for opposing ones. To a certain degree that's legitimate and only normal.

But once one is stricken with one of those free-radical diseases it would be really stupid not to correct possible nutritional deficiencies first, before taking to toxico-molecular whole life-regimes, which often don't change a jota about multi-faceted factors for such diseases, or outcomes.

The solution is really straightforward in that it doesn't require much scientific background knowledge, but just to give such harmless substances like ascorbic acid in the multiple gram range a fair trial. It could tell for itself. :)

For some to talk about beneficial antioxidants-effects in 2013 (in this post-Orwelian area) might seem retro, to others like placebo - but sure it works. Just common sense.
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#28 Dolph

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Posted 24 July 2013 - 01:46 PM

For some to talk about beneficial antioxidants-effects in 2013 (in this post-Orwelian area) might seem retro, to others like placebo - but sure it works. Just common sense.


If something doesn't "work" better or even worse than placebo it doesn't work by definition. That's common sense!

By the way, "free-radical disease" is the most hilarious woo I read for quite some time. It really made my day, although I fear it wasn't even meant ironic...

Edited by Dolph, 24 July 2013 - 01:47 PM.


#29 majkinetor

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Posted 24 July 2013 - 02:05 PM

By the way, "free-radical disease" is the most hilarious woo I read for quite some time



Oh really ? The people who quickly "woo" things are far more ridiculous IMO

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/22903797
ROS-related disease can be either due to a lack of ROS (e.g., chronic granulomatous disease, certain autoimmune disorders) or a surplus of ROS (e.g., cardiovascular and neurodegenerative diseases)
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#30 pamojja

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Posted 24 July 2013 - 02:05 PM

If something doesn't "work" better or even worse than placebo it doesn't work by definition. That's common sense!


Well, I meant the practical experimentation with for example vitamin C in high doses itself. I never used sun-creams and I always got some sunburns at the beginning of the swimming season. Now since 5 years I haven't had a sun burn. Admittedly not compared to placebo. Maybe I'm mutating?
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