28 replies to this topic

[Passion]

We've seen a lot of contradictory studies on whether high cholesterol is good or bad for longevity. Too much is associated with atherosclerosis and heart disease while too little is associated with lack of essential ingredients for all sorts of chemical reactions in the brain and body.

What if instead of trying to reduce cholesterol levels in the body, there was a way to directly address the negative effect we're trying to avoid (atherosclerosis). What if there was a way to clean the arteries of plaque and restore their structural integrity?

I found this article on the use of a natural supplement, Chondroitin Sulfate, to address just that:
http://www.lewrockwe...ease-naturally/

When I originally found this article, it had some very convincing images of the arteries of the squirrel monkeys this was tested on. I find it difficult to hunt down all the referenced studies without pubmed or similar account but I somehow don't feel this is falsified information.

I've also found some separate studies hinting at the same thing:
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/20399896

This study seems to be the strongest and it comes directly from the American Heart Association (AHA):
http://circres.ahajo.../2/358.full.pdf

With such strong results from the AHA (primate) study, I'm surprised a large-scale human trials were never conducted.

Maybe it has... I found this from Angiology but without an account, I can't even see the abstract:
http://ang.sagepub.c...t/24/5/269.refs

Are there any immortalists out there concerned with heart disease and the like?
What do you think of these sources and studies? I think this could be a hell of a better approach/alternative than statins.

I searched the forums for a post discussing this but didn't find anything.

I wasn't sure whether to post this in the supplements section or the lifestyle section. Mods feel free to relocate if necessary.

Edited by Passion, 25 July 2013 - 08:58 AM.

[Passion]

I probably should have posted this under the supplements section. Mods, feel free to relocate as needed.

[blood]

This is possibly relevant to the discussion:

http://www.ergo-log....elongevity.html

Glucosamine and chondroitin users live longer

... an American study that was recently published in the American Journal of Clinical Nutrition... followed 78,000 people aged between 50 and 76 for a period of 5 years. The researchers had information on the subjects’ supplements use over the previous 10 years and assessed whether supplements reduced mortality or increased it.

... Glucosamine and chondroitin reduce mortality significantly. Fish oil lowers mortality by an almost significant amount, and ginkgo is not far off a statistically significant effect too...

... The researchers come up with a theory, based on a literature search, on the possible mechanism behind the life-extending effect of glucosamine and chondroitin. Studies suggest that glucosamine and chondroitin protect the blood vessels and reduce the chance of developing lung and bowel cancer.

(The study is observational, so maybe not appropriate to describe the observed relationships as "causal"?)

Note - too much supplemental glucosamine in theory could kill precious pancreatic cells:
http://www.scienceda...01027111349.htm

Edited by blood, 28 July 2013 - 10:22 AM.

[pamojja]

I found this article on the use of a natural supplement, Chondroitin Sulfate, to address just that:
http://www.lewrockwe...ease-naturally/

Graphics and tables don't display in this article for me. Here's a version which does:

http://knowledgeofhe...lesterol-drugs/

I've been diagnosed a PAD with an about 80% stenosis of my abdominal aorta almost 5 years ago, causing a pain-free walking-distance of merely 3-400 meter. Pauling's therapy improved this debility up to 2 hrs within 1 year. Since then I joined TYP and saw many further improvements in other areas of health - but not with this pain-free walking distance, which even went down to 1 hour at times again.

Just ramped up my Chondroitin Sulfate dose to 5g/d. In about half years time I'll be able to tell more...



Edit: the 80% blockage last year checked again hasn't changed a iota (ultra sound).

Edited by pamojja, 28 July 2013 - 12:08 PM.

[Passion]

Hey Pamojja, I really hope this works for you and I'm truly excited to follow your story. If this does indeed work, it would be a great boon to you and to anyone else comes across this. According to that first article in the study by Morrison, it looks like 2 months is enough to see a notable effect.

That study calls for 10g of Chondroitin Sulfate (CS) gradually tapered down to 1.5g over the course of 5 months. If you go with traditional caps, 10g is going to cost a fortune! I decided to go with bulk powder for now, since it's a lot cheaper. It doesn't look like there's a lot of demand for this in bulk though so it's hard to find

Here's the source I ordered from (Nutrabio):
http://www.nutrabio....chondroitin.htm

It comes to about $0.10 per gram instead of the ~$0.28 you would pay for caps. You also get to skip out on all the fillers in the caps like Magnesium Stearate, etc.

[pamojja]

It comes to about $0.10 per gram instead of the ~$0.28 you would pay for caps.

Damn, I paid $ 0,17 per gram with shipping . However, it's only a one-time investment, and I'm not as exited. Don't think I could stomach 10 g/d. In the light that calcification usually proceeds at a yearly rate of 30% I'm glad that I already could stop that. Just about any regression would amount to a miracle.

[Passion]

I'm curious as to why you say you couldn't stomach 10g/d. Are you sensitive to CS or afraid of the taste or something? I'm currently taking 10g/d now and (via caps, although I'll be switching to powder) and I seem to be okay - at least so far

[pamojja]

I'm curious as to why you say you couldn't stomach 10g/d. Are you sensitive to CS or afraid of the taste or something?

Yes, with unusually tasting powders my stomach at times did throw the whole up again. Though I haven't tried that much CS yet.

From the 3 cases described in the article only 1 started with 10g/d, the 2 other with 6. Since I also only weight around 60kg I prefer to start with a lower dose.

Also my stenosis is very well defined just above where the aorta bifurcates down to the legs. Since CAD isn't rampant in my family I strongly suspect one particular insult to my aorta in that area due to a hefty spine infection just behind at the same body-height 14 years ago. The actual stenosis developed after 2 years at a working place with much too much constant stress.

Since the surface of this blockage is so limited to a small area I suspect it would take much longer to clean up. Higher doses would probably be wasted everywhere else, but with smaller impact due to the limited surface of the stenosis. Can't afford that much CS for too long.

[balance]

May I suggest that if their benefit are due to increased collagen/elastin production there are much better alternatives that simultaneously kill more birds with a single stone:

Up to bowel tolerance on an empty stomach:
Wholesale nutrition vitamin c potassium ascorbate, providing max 2800mg potassium
OR Nutribiotic sodium ascorbate

200mg Jarrow Hyaluronic acid (empty stomach)
200mg Swanson Hyaljoint extra strength (100mg per cap) (empty stomach)

LIMIT DAILY VITAMIN A (retinol) INTAKE to maximum 3000iu from all sources

Create an alkaline environment:

Make sure daily Calcium intake from all sources is 1000-1500mg and make sure it is absorbable (so no milk)
Swanson monosodium phosphate 1000-1500mg
(You could choose Swanson Boneology Superior Form Calcium which contains Phosphorous as well)
4 Doctor's best magnesium glycinate 100mg (with meals but make sure there's no phytic acid or oxalates to steal it)

1 Doctor's Best vitamin d3 1000iu-500iu softgel (get bloodtest to determine proper dose)
2 KoncentratedK k2 mk-4 25mg, 5mg K1, 500mcg MK-7, 5mg astaxanthin, 100mg grapeseed 90% (with meal providing at least 35 grams of fat)
1 Swanson copper 2mg (take with meal to avoid GI bleeding)
2 Natural Factors Biosil 5mg silicon per capsule
2 Life Extension Pomegranate (incredible shiny smooth skin from this one)

Less important but can be considered if taking all of the above:

3-6 OptiMSM 1000mg
3 L-Proline 1000mg
3-6 L-Lysine 1000mg
3 Hesperidin Methyl Chalcone 500mg
1 Biotin 1000-5000mcg

Edited by piet3r, 29 July 2013 - 02:23 AM.

[niner]

The chondroitin/CAD story is interesting. If there's any truth to the remarkable stories in Bill Sardi's report, and considering that people have been using chondroitin (along with glucosamine) for years as an arthritis "cure", I'm a bit surprised (or perhaps not) that no one with CAD has noticed a huge improvement from it. Perhaps no one taking it for arthritis used a sufficiently large dose to see the CAD effect?

[balance]

Perhaps no one taking it for arthritis used a sufficiently large dose to see the CAD effect?

Indeed, unfortunately Chondroitin and glucosamine aren't exactly known for their fantastic absorption...

[Passion]

The chondroitin/CAD story is interesting. If there's any truth to the remarkable stories in Bill Sardi's report, and considering that people have been using chondroitin (along with glucosamine) for years as an arthritis "cure", I'm a bit surprised (or perhaps not) that no one with CAD has noticed a huge improvement from it. Perhaps no one taking it for arthritis used a sufficiently large dose to see the CAD effect?

I did find that study posted earlier by blood pretty interesting. It seems he broke the link with his edit, but you can see the study here:
http://www.ergo-log....elongevity.html

It's oddly worded and starts by saying, 'Supplements are Bad for You' only to later say, 'Actually, these three things are good for you'. You'll have to scroll down to the middle to see the latter.

In short, it pretty much shows that high doses of chondroitin (doesn't specify what high means) are associated with 0.83/1.00 mortality (17% reduction) with strong statistical significance (p < 0.009). I don't know how reliable this study is though or where it comes from.

It's also possible that we're overestimating doctor's abilities to detect patterns like this (these people take glucosamine and have less cardiac events). AFAIK, most doctors are slow to make such connections w/out hard reference to a popular study.

Edited by Passion, 29 July 2013 - 03:47 AM.

[balance]

Ergogenics are Dutch guys who are ridiculously poor at translating their articles so try to ignore that. They are also hypocrites since they often slam supplements yet often praise some anabolic steroids. They're not horrible, but take their stuff with tiny grain of salt.

[blood]

It seems he broke the link with his edit, but you can see the study here:
http://www.ergo-log....elongevity.html

Oops, sorry about that. I can't seem to edit that post now.

Here is a more recent analysis of the same dataset (with a focus on the significant association between chondroitin/ glucosamine supplementation and reduced mortality):

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/22828954

Eur J Epidemiol. 2012 Aug;27(8):593-603. doi: 10.1007/s10654-012-9714-6. Epub 2012 Jul 25.

Use of glucosamine and chondroitin in relation to mortality.

Bell GA, Kantor ED, Lampe JW, Shen DD, White E.

Source

Cancer Prevention Program, The Fred Hutchinson Cancer Research Center, Seattle, WA 98109, USA. gabell@fhcrc.org

Abstract

Glucosamine and chondroitin are products commonly used by older adults in the US and Europe. There is limited evidence that they have anti-inflammatory properties, which could provide risk reduction of several diseases. However, data on their long-term health effects is lacking. To evaluate whether use of glucosamine and chondroitin are associated with cause-specific and total mortality. Participants (n = 77,510) were members of a cohort study of Washington State (US) residents aged 50-76 years who entered the cohort in 2000-2002 by completing a baseline questionnaire that included questions on glucosamine and chondroitin use. Participants were followed for mortality through 2008 (n = 5,362 deaths). Hazard ratios (HR) for death adjusted for multiple covariates were estimated using Cox models. Current (baseline) glucosamine and chondroitin use were associated with a decreased risk of total mortality compared to never use. The adjusted HR associated with current use of glucosamine (with or without chondroitin) was 0.82 (95 % CI 0.75-0.90) and 0.86 (95 % CI 0.78-0.96) for chondroitin (included in two-thirds of glucosamine supplements). Current use of glucosamine was associated with a significant decreased risk of death from cancer (HR 0.87 95 % CI 0.76-0.98) and with a large risk reduction for death from respiratory diseases (HR 0.59 95 % CI 0.41-0.83). Use of glucosamine with or without chondroitin was associated with reduced total mortality and with reductions of several broad causes of death. Although bias cannot be ruled out, these results suggest that glucosamine may provide some mortality benefit.

PMID: 22828954
[PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] PMCID: PMC3557824 [Available on 2013/8/1]

Here is the study mentioned in the ergo-log.com article:

Am J Clin Nutr. 2010 Jun;91(6):1791-800. doi: 10.3945/ajcn.2009.28639. Epub 2010 Apr 21.

Total mortality risk in relation to use of less-common dietary supplements.

Pocobelli G, Kristal AR, Patterson RE, Potter JD, Lampe JW, Kolar A, Evans I, White E.
Source

Department of Epidemiology, University of Washington, Seattle, USA. gpocobel@u.washington.edu <gpocobel@u.washington.edu>

Abstract

BACKGROUND:

Dietary supplement use is common in older US adults; however, data on health risks and benefits are lacking for a number of supplements.

OBJECTIVE:

We evaluated whether 10-y average intakes of 13 vitamin and mineral supplements and glucosamine, chondroitin, saw palmetto, Ginko biloba, garlic, fish-oil, and fiber supplements were associated with total mortality.

DESIGN:

We conducted a prospective cohort study of Washington State residents aged 50-76 y during 2000-2002. Participants (n = 77,719) were followed for mortality for an average of 5 y.

RESULTS:

A total of 3577 deaths occurred during 387,801 person-years of follow-up. None of the vitamin or mineral 10-y average intakes were associated with total mortality. Among the nonvitamin-nonmineral supplements, only glucosamine and chondroitin were associated with total mortality. The hazard ratio (HR) when persons with a high intake of supplements (> or =4 d/wk for > or =3 y) were compared with nonusers was 0.83 (95% CI: 0.72, 0.97; P for trend = 0.009) for glucosamine and 0.83 (95% CI: 0.69, 1.00; P for trend = 0.011) for chondroitin. There was also a suggestion of a decreased risk of total mortality associated with a high intake of fish-oil supplements (HR: 0.83; 95% CI: 0.70, 1.00), but the test for trend was not statistically significant.

CONCLUSIONS:

For most of the supplements we examined, there was no association with total mortality. Use of glucosamine and use of chondroitin were each associated with decreased total mortality.

PMID: 20410091 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] PMCID: PMC2869514

Edited by blood, 29 July 2013 - 07:01 AM.

[pamojja]

I've been diagnosed a PAD with an about 80% stenosis of my abdominal aorta almost 5 years ago, causing a pain-free walking-distance of merely 3-400 meter. Pauling's therapy improved this debility up to 2 hrs within 1 year. Since then I joined TYP and saw many further improvements in other areas of health - but not with this pain-free walking distance, which even went down to 1 hour at times again.

Just ramped up my Chondroitin Sulfate dose to 5g/d. In about half years time I'll be able to tell more...


Edit: the 80% blockage last year checked again hasn't changed a iota (ultra sound).

May I suggest that if their benefit are due to increased collagen/elastin production there are much better alternatives that simultaneously kill more birds with a single stone:

Up to bowel tolerance on an empty stomach:
Wholesale nutrition vitamin c potassium ascorbate, providing max 2800mg potassium
OR Nutribiotic sodium ascorbate ...

Thanks for your well-meant suggestions, but as mentioned before, I did have the largest improvement with Pauling's Therapy already 4 years ago.

That means I've also been taking ascorbic acid up to bowel tolerance, in avg. 20 g/d for almost 5 years now (10% from ascorbates). Further 5,4 g lysine and 2,7 g proline along with all the other many recommendations. Though that did help the greatest till now, Pauling 'unified theory of CAD' hasn't been supported by my experience - since my Lp(a) remained hovering around 50 mg/dl all that time. However, that doesn't diminish it's effects for me in any way. Too many side-benefits by vitamin C alone which make it really worthwhile.

Serum Calcium came up by raising my 25(OH)vitaminD3 level with in average 8.000 IU/d D3 alone. And since one get shiploads of Calcium from handfuls of supplements - often the amount not even declared, for example as Dicalcium-Phosphate - I wouldn't supplement Calcium intentionally and additionally without any indications, ever.

My biggest deficiency remains Magnesium, though having supplemented in avg. 1050 mg/d (elemental) for 5 yrs, and more recently up to 1800 mg with muscle-cramps still only an arm-length away (and still worst RBC lab results). Though I used all kind of better bio-available magnesium, but since I have to import those expensive in the kgs range from the States, I'm glad I found a local mineral water with more than 1 g per liter locally here.

I wouldn't supplement Copper if I wouldn't balance it with the appropriate amount of Zinc too. Despite my relatively high Zinc intake (UL) RBC Zinc remained at the lower end of the reference range, and copper above it's upper range!

20.000 IU vitamin A supplemented (without beta-carotene or regular canned cod liver with whooping amounts of vitamin A) brought my Retinol and RBP levels merely to a mediocre midrange.

Also somehow funny that you would recommend me today the Vitamin K product I brought yesterday to your attention..

All good examples how one can't trust supplement recommendations on the net without further investigation, even those with caps lock on ;-) Everyone has to get intimate with one's own bio-chemical individuality oneself, to know what's really appropriate. That takes time, much effort and determination.

So all in all, I estimate to have been taking a much, much wider range and about 100 g/d total of nutrients for almost 5 years - definitely I threw more stones that I killed birds. And I had the kind of faith that would move mountains. I do feel better, but it didn't chipped away anything from the blockage. In which way your suggestions worked for you?

[balance]

I am humble and accept it when something is better than what I have researched. The KoncentratedK product doesn't have any downsides when compared to Relentless Improvement's version and in fact has extra benefits. I see no reason not to incorporate it immediately in my regimen and advice. I've emailed with the author of the website as well and he has been adequate in his answers thus far.

Sorry to hear you are still in mediocre health despite your extreme efforts. Just curious though, you are making sure all that ascorbic acid is buffered before it lands in your mouth (and stomach) right? Else it could help explain why you need such huge amounts of magnesium and calcium. You could be acidifying yourself. You might wanna look into an alkaline diet as I said.

With all the huge nutrient doses you mention that you need to raise levels I wonder a couple of things:

1. What's your weight, height and fat percentage?

2. Do you have any history of GI issues? Could be significant malabsorption going on. Most of the amounts you take would really overdose most people.

3. Have you used Life Extension's Pomegranate capsules (not the full spectrum softgels) at a high dose (3 a day or more) for a while to see if it clears up some plaque?

4. Try Thompson Horse Chestnut 400mg (18% escin). It increases blood flow better than anything else I know.


I personally suffer from vitamin C allergy and cassein allergy. When I took vitamin C it landed me with pericarditis in the hospital emergency cardiology department 3 times within 6 months when I was 22 years old. Therefore I was forced to look into other means to boost my collagen/elastin. The suggestions I have given (except for Vit C of course) have worked very well for me. Of all of them, Hyaluronic acid from Jarrow and Life Extension's Blueberry extract, Life Extension's Pomegranate capsules (notice, don't get the one that combines both as it's less effective) have done totally incredible things for my skin health. Literally a transformation. That said, both blueberry and pomegranate lower my immunity due to their strong anti inflammatory effects, so I can't take them chronically. Hyaluronic acid gives me a slightly different skin effect but doesn't lower my immunity so I take it daily.
Presumably due to the Vit C allergy, I have severe joint pain in most of my fingers ever since I was 16 which destroyed my dream of going to conservatory (I'm a professional guitarist) so I started looking into anything that preserves bone/joint/muscle health. I also recover extremely slowly from any kind of exertion/exercise and anti-inflammatories have a very profound extra negative effect on that. Especially omega 3's, so I don't take them. It seems my body is resisting all this glorious research that shows we need to lower cortisol and take tons of anti inflammatories. I also notice that when I eat a lot of meat (protein allergy) my face gets really red and inflamed and if I don't apply some cortisol cream it goes totally out of control and I get a seborrheic eczema that you wouldn't see in your worst dermatology books. Maybe adrenal fatigue from the vit C problem? Not sure, but I do know that taking large doses of vit b5 as either pantothenic acid or panthethine makes me feel like shit. Same with vitamin E (Life extension's gamma E + tocotrienols for example). When I take that, the anti inflammatory effect causes my wounds to never heal, if I get a red spot from hitting my arm or leg against something, normally it's gone within minutes, if I take the above mentioned anti inflammatories, it will simply NOT disappear, even days later....).

Edited by piet3r, 29 July 2013 - 11:57 AM.

[rwac]

Serum Calcium came up by raising my 25(OH)vitaminD3 level with in average 8.000 IU/d D3 alone. And since one get shiploads of Calcium from handfuls of supplements - often the amount not even declared, for example as Dicalcium-Phosphate - I wouldn't supplement Calcium intentionally and additionally without any indications, ever.

I'd be careful raising Serum Calcium, it usually means that PTH is raised to remove calcium from the bones, it's might actually be a sign of calcium deficiency. PTH is a risk factor for calcification. Perhaps you should test PTH too...

[pamojja]

... The KoncentratedK product doesn't have any downsides when compared ... I've emailed with the author of the website as well and he has been adequate in his answers thus far.

The author has beat this beast by archiving regression with many years of efforts. Nevertheless, after recommending it and your warning about higher Vitamin A I almost regretted, since most aren't aware how much the fat-solubles A, D, E, and K all interact and partly protect from each others toxicity, specially at high doses. For example, it has been his experience that beta-carotene would be everything his liver needs to deliver adequate vitamin A. This definitely hasn't been my experience.

Also merely 5 mg of vitamin K1 (for 8 month) took my serum level already to 9,9 µg/l with a reference range of 0,22 - 2.28 only. Not that there is anything to fear from such higher levels of K1, it just shows how little an allegedly short half-life might be applicable to any given individual - and the importance of testing.

Else it could help explain why you need such huge amounts of magnesium and calcium.

I DONT have any indication that I would need any more calcium (serum and hair mineral tests), and the only animal study which showed that ascorbic acid would deplete magnesium was with an magnesium depleted chow to begin with. Which isn't really applicable to me. I got about 600 mg Mg from diet, 1050 mg Mg from supplements - about 1100 mg Ca from diet, 600 mg Ca from Supplements - about 4100 mg K from diet, and about 600 mg K from supplements - during the last 5 years.

You might wanna look into an alkaline diet as I said.

Have been a vegetarian since 10 years of age up to my diagnosis. However, since I added more acidic foods my condition improved again.

60 kg, 1,73 m and a BMI at 20. Mal-absorption or wasting - out of whatever reason - seems the most likely cause for not getting enough magnesium in my system.
Pomegranate I took consistently at various doses in average about 500 mg last 5 years. However, my and the experience of many others at TrackYourPlaque has been that usually there isn't one single magical pill which resolves all the plaque, it usually takes the synergism of a couple of such promising remedies. Haven't tried horse-chestnut yet. Thanks for the suggestion.

Sorry to hear you are still in mediocre health despite your extreme efforts ...

I personally suffer from vitamin C allergy and ...

My goodness! Really sorry to hear about a vitamin C allergy - the first time I hear of such - I must be really lucky because with such an allergy I would probably be death. Are you sure? (sorry for finding it hard to believe) At what mg of ascorbic acid your allergic reaction start to occur? If much below the RDA, must be really hard to live with scurvy?

Thanks for your straight-forwardness in letting me know your issues, now I understand a bid better the background of your supplement recommendations.

Presumably due to the Vit C allergy, I have severe joint pain in most of my fingers ever since I was 16 which destroyed my dream of going to conservatory (I'm a professional guitarist) so I started looking into anything that preserves bone/joint/muscle health. I also recover extremely slowly from any kind of exertion/exercise and anti-inflammatories have a very profound extra negative effect on that.
...
Especially omega 3's, so I don't take them.

Must sound funny in the context of this thread's title, but nevertheless, I take it you've tried Chondroidin Sulfate? How about fish?

[pamojja]

I'd be careful raising Serum Calcium, it usually means that PTH is raised to remove calcium from the bones, it's might actually be a sign of calcium deficiency. PTH is a risk factor for calcification. Perhaps you should test PTH too...

Thanks, I am. However, PTH in 2011 has been 8,2 pg/ml, and 18,9pg/ml in 2012 (only twice tested) with a range of 14 - 72. And serum Cacium has always come up nicely with higher 25(OH)D3s from marginally below reference range. It took me 8.000 IU/d D3 to reach an avg. 25(OH)D3 of 54 mg/dl during the last 5 years (7 times tested).

Edited by pamojja, 29 July 2013 - 02:14 PM.

[balance]

"The author has beat this beast by archiving regression with many years of efforts. Nevertheless, after recommending it and your warning about higher Vitamin A I almost regretted, since most aren't aware how much the fat-solubles A, D, E, and K all interact and partly protect from each others toxicity, specially at high doses. For example, it has been his experience that beta-carotene would be everything his liver needs to deliver adequate vitamin A. This definitely hasn't been my experience."

Sadly, I believed exactly that via Weston Price's Chris Masterjohn and so I didn't think the vit A would be toxic but only 1000iu of Vit D3 proved toxic to me causing hypercalcemia. This was when my intake of vit A retinol was between 2000-4000iu a day, and my vit K2 MK-4 intake was 15-45mg, magnesium 100-200mg (I get diarrhea from taking 400mg).

My height, 1.78cm, weight 58 (used to weigh 69 when still practicing martial arts but due to the severeness of the joint pain can no longer do so) bmi 18.6.


"My goodness! Really sorry to hear about a vitamin C allergy - the first time I hear of such - I must be really lucky because with such an allergy I would probably be death. Are you sure? (sorry for finding it hard to believe) At what mg of ascorbic acid your allergic reaction start to occur? If much below the RDA, must be really hard to live with scurvy?"

Yes I get problems even when taking 50mg of vitamin C. I cannot take any fruits or veggies high in vit C. Funny enough I don't get outright scurvy but to call my dental health pristine would be downright incorrect....
I got officially diagnosed with the allergy. There's a forum with about 40 poor bastards who have it too, though the symptoms vary slightly.


"Must sound funny in the context of this thread's title, but nevertheless, I take it you've tried Chondroidin Sulfate? How about fish?"

Yes I have tried taking 4grams a day of Chondroitin and Glucosamine 4 grams as well as 12-20grams of Sulfur OptiMSM, all to no benefit whatsoever.

I can eat fish, just like chicken and meat, and they all result in the same thing: eczema in the face...

See if this site helps you out, was very useful for me, tons of good articles:

http://www.acu-cell.com/vitc.html

Edited by piet3r, 29 July 2013 - 02:19 PM.

[pamojja]

... and so I didn't think the vit A would be toxic but only 1000iu of Vit D3 proved toxic to me causing hypercalcemia. This was when my intake of vit A retinol was between 2000-4000iu a day, and my vit K2 MK-4 intake was 15-45mg, magnesium 100-200mg (I get diarrhea from taking 400mg).

Do I understand the above right that a meager 1.000 IU proved toxic in that it caused hypercalcemia? How much calcium you supplemented at that time?

What was or is your 25(OH)vitamin D3 level? What your retinol level? I ask because some recommend multiples of Retinol in IUs for prevention of vitamin D toxicity (ie. hypercalcemia). And I never heard of vitamin D causing hypercalcemia at such low intake. But what do I know? - if even 50mg vitamin C could cause an Alllegy?

See if this site helps you out, was very useful for me, tons of good articles:
http://www.acu-cell.com/vitc.html

Thanks. 2 years ago I noted all possible interactions from this site down:

Magnesium Synergists: Chromium, zinc, boron, CoQ10, Vitamin B2, Vitamin B6, [calcium, Vitamin D], insoluble fiber.

Magnesium Antagonists / Inhibitors: Sodium, potassium, iron, selenium, copper, lithium, silicon / silica, manganese, Vitamin A, Vitamin B1, Vitamin C, Vitamin E, niacin / niacinamide, PABA, Vitamin K, folate, choline, uric acid, alcohol, [calcium, Vitamin D].

[nameless]

I wouldn't supplement Copper if I wouldn't balance it with the appropriate amount of Zinc too. Despite my relatively high Zinc intake (UL) RBC Zinc remained at the lower end of the reference range, and copper above it's upper range!

How are you testing copper? I recall it being tricky to determine from most blood tests.

Pauling Institute:
It is important to note that serum copper largely reflects serum ceruloplasmin and is not a sensitive indicator of copper nutritional status. Serum ceruloplasmin levels are known to increase by 50% or more under certain conditions of physical stress, such as trauma, inflammation, or disease. Because over 90% of serum copper is carried in ceruloplasmin, which is increased in many inflammatory conditions, elevated serum copper may simply be a marker of inflammation that accompanies atherosclerosis.

[pamojja]

Thanks (or should I say damn?) for reminding me how labs can become difficult to interpret with certainty, because of so many other factors possibly at play. Here some options my books give for testing these:

Zinc:

Serum zinc	Levels 0.75-1.25 mg/l (11.5-19 μmol/l) are normal, < 0.75 mg/dl (< 10.7 μmol/l1) indicate deficiency; levels 10.7–13.0 μmol/l indicate marginal status	Serum has only limited significance since it contains merely 1-2% of the bodies whole zinc pool (largest part in blood is contained in erythrocytes due to their content in carbohydrase. By their average life length of 120 day erythrocytes allow determination of long-term zinc status). Levels are decreased in moderate to severe deficiency. Infection and/or stress may shift zinc from plasma to liver and decrease plasma levels without affecting body stores. Oral contraceptives cause a shift into tissue. Ideally also metallothioneine is evaluated
Metallothioneine	Levels < 0.75 mg/l (11.5 μmol/l) indicate deficiency
Whole blood zinc	Levels 4.0-7.8 mg/l (61.2-114.9 μmol/l) are normal
Zinc tolerance test	A 2–3 fold increase in plasma zinc indicates zinc deficiency	After a baseline plasma zinc measurement, an oral load of 50 mg elemental zinc is given. 120 min later plasma zinc is remeasured
Further parameters:		Erythrocytes-/leukocytes zinc, enzyme activity (e.g. activity of alkaline phosphatase), thymulin concentration, urinary zinc excretion

Copper:

Erythrocyte Cu/Zn superoxide dismutase	Normal values are 0.47 ± 0.067 mg/g Hb	Levels are a good index of copper status. Copper in thrombocytes is a further parameter
Serum copper	Levels 80-125 μg/dl (12.6-20 μmol/l) are nomal, < 12 μmol/l indicate deficiency	Can be used to detect copper deficiency, but serum copper levels are elevated by a variety of conditions and can vary independent of body copper. Acute or chronic infections, leukemia, lymphomas, Hodgkin- disease, carcinoma, liver damage, stress, various forms of anemia as well as oral intake of contraceptives often raises serum copper levels.
Whole blood copper	Levels 100-130 μl/dl are normal
Plasma ceruloplasmin	Levels 0.1–0.5 g/l are normal (other source 2: 0.2-0.7 g/l)	> 90% of blood copper is bound to ceruloplasmin. Although ceruloplasmin levels can be used to detect copper deficiency, ceruloplasmin is an acute-phase protein. Therefore is elevated by a variety of conditions and can vary independent of body copper
Urinary copper	Levels 0.47–0.94 μmol/d are normal
24 hrs urinary copper	Levels 10-60 μg/d are normal

My available past data points:

	Serum Cu	Whole blood Cu	Serum Zn	Whole blood Zn	CRP
	µg/dl	mg/l	µg/dl	mg/l	mg/dl
range:	65 - 165	1.1 - 1.2	73 - 127	7.3 - 7.7	< 0.5
2010:	124	-	76	-	0.05
2011:	117	-	-	-	0.15
2012:	-	1.32	-	7.38	1

Ok, I exaggerated. These past copper values suggest mid-ranges, and only with somehow stronger inflammation (though not really that much) a bid above normal range. While Zinc remained close to the lower limit of reference ranges of these laboratories.

Therefore I hope for a next copper measurement without elevated CRP.

I wouldn't supplement Copper if I wouldn't balance it with the appropriate amount of Zinc too.

Though really only guessing, I still wouldn't.

[pamojja]

 

I found this article on the use of a natural supplement, Chondroitin Sulfate, to address just that:
http://www.lewrockwe...ease-naturally/

Graphics and tables don't display in this article for me. Here's a version which does:

http://knowledgeofhe...lesterol-drugs/

I've been diagnosed a PAD with an about 80% stenosis of my abdominal aorta almost 5 years ago, causing a pain-free walking-distance of merely 3-400 meter. Pauling's therapy improved this debility up to 2 hrs within 1 year. Since then I joined TYP and saw many further improvements in other areas of health - but not with this pain-free walking distance, which even went down to 1 hour at times again.

Just ramped up my Chondroitin Sulfate dose to 5g/d. In about half years time I'll be able to tell more...

 

 
A bid late for the intended update, but better that than never.

 

From this post date I stayed for 8 month on 5 g/d chondroitin sulfate, after that decreased gradually till I run out of it, and never reordered. In retrospect, since spring of 2014 any intermittent claudication symptoms vanished. In particular after 2 hours walking the PAD specific leg-pains were no more, and had to rest due to exhaustion only. Meanwhile also had a 60% government-certified walking disability revoked due to that improvement.

 

So maybe the addition of chondroitin sulfate was indeed the last missing agent in the myriad of synergies I already was building on? Will probably never know for sure.

[PeaceAndProsperity]

Did you try vitamin K2 for your arterial disease? Were you the one I had an argument with over the side effects of vitamin K2?

[pamojja]

Did you try vitamin K2 for your arterial disease?

 

I just added my stack here for the first time. Where you could investigate my intake over the years further. Maybe you find something I haven't become aware of yet?

 

http://www.longecity...nal-remissions/

[PeaceAndProsperity]

 

Did you try vitamin K2 for your arterial disease?

 

I just added my stack here for the first time. Where you could investigate my intake over the years further. Maybe you find something I haven't become aware of yet?

 

http://www.longecity...nal-remissions/

 

I avoided leaving a comment there because I am not sure if you'd get a notification from it.

I noticed you did not have vitamin K2 on your list. Why not? It's known that arterial calcification plays a major role in atherosclerosis by preventing plaque removal. Or something...

I have a feeling we've talked about this before but my memory is foggy right now.

 

If I were you I'd take SAMe for the liver (seems to make urine very clear and also has proven benefits for liver health).

For your diabetes I'd take carnitine and dhea. If you can legally get dhea it's a shame not taking it with all its benefits for longevity.

 

For CFS, which I have never been officially diagnosed with because doctors are reluctant to be helpful in any way whatsoever, I have found it to be very strongly correlated with serotonin.

Are you sensitive to tryptophan, does tryptophan worsen your fatigue? Test this on yourself. If it turns out to be true then it's very likely it's the 5ht2a receptor, which is directly implicated in causing CFS. In this case a 5ht2a antagonist like ginkgo biloba should work - it does in myself though it also causes anxiety and other issues I don't want.

 

A low dose l-theanine (eye-balled, tiny bit of powder on finger) before bed seems to ameliorate various symptoms of the 5ht2a receptor AFTER waking up. It's perhaps a 60% success rate.

Melatonin on the other hand seems to exacerbate all sorts of issues caused by the 5ht2a receptor, including fatigue, AFTER waking up. Paradoxically a very low dose of melatonin appears to exert stronger effects in this regard than a high dose.

 

[pamojja]

I avoided leaving a comment there because I am not sure if you'd get a notification from it.
I noticed you did not have vitamin K2 on your list. Why not?..

 
Go to that page again, then scroll down to where it says:
 

Since it would probably take me days to enter my actual regimen with up to 500 ingredients (dietary and supplemental) here, something much more accurate: All that as it changed over the 8 years:

And click the link to a google spreadsheet below that sentence. On that spreadsheet see that I included all your suggestion since long ago.

[PeaceAndProsperity]

I'm not sure how to interpret the information.