13 replies to this topic

[Doktor]

Hi everyone,

So I already have another thread going here: http://www.longecity...on-please-help/, which should give you a little taste of my situation.

My depression is heavily co-morbid with anxiety, and for the last 7 months, I have been self medicating with poppy seed tea (strong morphine, codeine, thebaine, etc. content). Although this has done a fantastic job at eradicating my depression and anxiety, I am now - obviously - physically dependant on my daily dose. Having experienced pretty significant dependence with anti-depressants my doctor has previously prescribed me, I could frankly care less about the actual addiction; this tea provides me with symptomatic relief far superior to any pharmaceutical I have used, and I honestly wouldn't rate the withdrawals much higher then a high dose of Cipralex/Lexapro (I get relatively mild withdrawals and my tolerance takes forever to build, which I think are likely related phenomena). I have even withdrawn from heroin cold turkey twice before, and it was really only bad for two or three days.

Alas, there is one "side-effect" that my opiate-based treatment has left me with, which is one of the main reasons I am quitting: the inner companion effect. My depression and anxiety are so non-existent when I'm using, that I find I am perfectly content with life just staying in and working on hobbies. Although this is great and all, my social life has taken a hit, and - in the spirit of self-actualization - I cannot have this.

My Plan (which may be of use to others in a similar predicament):

Poppy seed tea - likely due to the staggering number of competing alkaloids in it - has a very long half-life... similar to methadone. Although this doesn't really make sense on paper, I assure you, ask anyone who has ever dosed poppy seed tea and they will tell you that you'll be high all day. I have tried getting off the brew a number of times in the last 3 months now, and although I've come close on several occasions, the withdrawals just last WAY too damn long.

Enter Kratom; I have just received a package containing 60 grams of "Ultra" Maeng Da, which is known for its potency (purchased from Galactic Botanicals, which I hear is a extremely legitimate vendor). Since Kratom has a much shorter half-life (and is a much more mild parial agonist), I will be substituting it in for my regular tea. My plan is:

• Go the first 24 hours cold turkey
• On day two, dose 5 grams twice
• On day three (the peak of withdrawals), dose 10 grams twice
• Days four - six: 5 grams twice daily

After that, I will be out of Kratom, and through about the first week of withdrawal (after the first week, things are significantly easier).

Anyone have experience with this? Honestly, I would love to extend my Kratom usage through the following week (making up 2 weeks total), but I'm not for two reasons:

• Addictive potential / Kratom Withdrawals
• Minimize total time spent getting clean

If anyone has any advice, comments, etc... Please! Feel free to share!

[protoject]

Have you ever taken kratom before? You'd want to find out at which level it makes you feel "normal" , as if you were still on poppy seed tea. You should maintain that dosing schedule for a few weeks to ensure that the poppy seed tea opiods have left your body and you've effectively switched your addiction from poppy seed tea to kratom. When you feel like you're comfortably addicted to Kratom, just stop taking it, and the withdrawal should be a lot less insane than withdrawing off poppy seed- or, if not less insane, at least less long. Most people say WD's are 3 or 4 days max.

Of course, I can't guarantee kratom will be an ally that will match your standards (i.e. will it really be strong enough to stave off those WD's?) but if it is, again the idea is to substitute the addiction, and then , have a less drawn-out withdrawal.

If you're looking to do this a bit faster why not put yourself on some Naltrexone after going cold turkey off of poppy seed tea for a few days, and go through a more intense, more short-lived withdrawal with the help of Naltrexone?

Of course you have to be careful, don't be a dumbass and go take 50 mg of naltrexone all at once. And make sure to know all the risks and what not.
(you may already know what naltrexone is and I'm not even sure if that's the route you want to go, but it's an opioid antagonist and should also help reset your receptors)


ANyway that's just my opinion, Can't be taken as professional advice.

BTW... I'm interpreting that your main concern is time... but don't sell yourself short on time. If you need more time to recover then take that time. Recovery will take some suffering. The advice about using kratom to avoid WDs and then substituting the addiction to Kratom, is really the best advice I can give.

[socialpiranha]

kratom works well to ease off but your still gonna go through a few days of hell....there's just no getting around it. I would advise starting a med that has worked at least somewhat for you in the past (for anx/dep) so those hell days are not spent in vain. In hindsight the worst part is the post recovery anhedonia and lack of drive for life. If you can't do it and it takes over your life, consider ibogaine...its the only way i got off a five+ year addiction. and don't hesitate to rank poppy tea with pharma opiates it is often more potent and addictive depending on how its used. many ppl have died drinking poppy tea because the dosage can vary so much and be so high.

[nowayout]

Just taper off slowly. You might as well do this with the original tea rather than switching to another drug like kratom and tapering that. I fail to see what you'd gain by the switch.

[Synaesthesiac]

If you can get access to it, I would start with Suboxone, that's what it is FOR. It is also a partial agonist and after you stabilize on the suboxone, you will begin to come out of that opiate fog a bit and your emotions will even out. I have TONS of experience with opiate withdrawal, and have exhausted every method. This worked for me in terms of titration:

Your Full-Agonist of choice-----Suboxone----Kratom/Tramadol (Serotonergic boost as well)-----LOPERAMIDE!

Loperamide, or Immodium AD by brand-name, is an anti-diarheal. Why does this help you? It combats diarrhea so effectively because it actually IS an opiate, albeit it does NOT cross the BBB and is only active peripherally, never touching your CNS. In those last stages of light withdrawal, or even WORST CASE SCENARIO in full withdrawal, Loperamide will actually get rid of near 90% subjective withdrawal symptoms. Keep in mind that it does NOT cross the BBB, so your brain's mew-opiod receptors will NOT be stimulated; however, the mew-opiod receptors in your gut and throughout (parts? Unsure exactly where else) your body WILL be stimulated. The key is finding the right dose and not maintaining this lope-regimen for too long, as the point is to get off the mew-opiod agaonists. For dosing information I highly recommend searching around Bluelight.ru and their forum, the loperamide *MIRACLE* has been discussed at length over there. The best part of loperamide is that it is over the counter and not regulated or monitored at all, since it doesn't get you "high" (but it will still fix you!). Since I discovered Loperamide I have not gone through a truly terrible kick since. Best of luck to you! You will feel SO MUCH BETTER when you make it out the other side. It feels good to feel alive again.

*EDIT

IMPORTANT!!!!: SUBOXONE is a medication containing a 4 to 1 ratio of Buprenorphin (partial agonist) and Naloxone (an ANTAGONIST). You may have heard that the naloxone (the antagonist) was put in the formulation in order to deter the patient from using a full agonist while on the medication (you will go into precipitated, IMMEDIATE withdrawal, and this is HELL. Imagine a 7-day kick coming on and going through the whole thing in one hour).

This is PARTIALLY true-

You indeed WILL go into PW if you take a full-agonist while on Suboxone, but it is NOT the naloxone that will make you sick. In fact, the naloxone effectively does NOTHING. It is a deterrent. What WILL cause you to go into PW is actually the Buprenorphin (the partial agonist). Buprenorphin has such a high affinity for the mew-opiod receptors that ANY full agonist will just knock the buprenorphin off the receptors and leave them bare in a matter of moments (this is PW). Only more bupe (and I suspect any opiate with an affinity greater than or equal to bupe's) will NOT send you into PW.

Edited by Synaesthesiac, 04 August 2013 - 10:24 PM.

[nowayout]

Your Full-Agonist of choice-----Suboxone----Kratom/Tramadol (Serotonergic boost as well)-----LOPERAMIDE!

Hmm, just be careful with Tramadol. It is controversial for opioid withdrawal purposes because Tramadol withdrawal is actually WORSE than withdrawal from good old vicodin or morphine. Tramadol acute withdrawal symptoms last also significantly longer (a week or two for some people) than that of other opioids (3 days), and even a small dose of Tramadol (100 mg per day) can be very hard to come off of. I have experience in this regard. I am trying to get off a low dose of (prescribed for a condition) Tramadol now and having a very difficult time with the last bit after titrating down to only two tabs a day.

The loperamide is interesting. My worst symptom when trying to reduce further is crawling muscle agitation at night, making it impossible to lie still and sleep. It doesn't sound like much but anyone who has had this will understand how UNBEARABLE it is and how it can drive you to get up and take more of the drug to jt make it stop ASAP, goodbye titration. I wonder if this feeling is generated centrally or if a peripheral drug like loperamide might help reduce it.

FWIW, I had a very good withdrawal from Tramadol on a previous occasion on vacation in Mexico. What I did is just buy some Xanax OTC and took enough of that for 4-5 days to mask the Tramadol withdrawal, and I was fine. Unfortunately this is not something you would be prescribed for withdrawal in other countries.

[Synaesthesiac]

I agree with you in regard to an EXTENDED withdrawal brought upon by ONLY Tramadol use would be horrible, that's why I suggest it as an alternative to Kratom, and ideally you wouldn't be on the Tramadol for any longer than a week (or any of them for that matter). he point is to step down potency with each new drug as quickly as possible for the least amount of time as possible, not letting your receptors adjust to any new drug before you titrate down to another. Any synthetic opiate, not just Tramadol, will actually cause a MUCH worse kick than even Heroin. But to be clear, Tramadol will help you step down that tolerance, just do not use it any longer than five days to a week before switching out for something less potent. Again, Loperamide does wonders. If you can get access to Clonidine as well that is highly recommended. Its a medication that regulates your blood-pressure, but a standard in any detox program for opiates for a reason. Clonidine will help with some of the sweating, the hot/cold chills, and a little bit of the restless legs at night. It can also help make you sleepy. Good luck!

[PalmAnita]

Have you considered using / trying an NMDA antagonist like Memantine - Ketamine - Dextromethorphan (rather discouraged if others are accessable) - Methoxetamine - MeO-PCPs - Ibogaine? I do have experiences with MXE, DXM and Memantine, the latter successfully used for various withdrawals - opiate, stimulant, ... imo there are enough anectotectally reports to take it for serious ... build the Memantine up over some days, if possible take the chance to kick the first top mg's of your opiate ... and then ... patience, but it's probably the most painless method.

Also, as already has been said, Clonidine is a nice little helper too, fighting that senseless norepinephrine released during stress etc...

[addx]

Ibogaine is king of opioid detox.

[Synaesthesiac]

Ibogaine is king of opioid detox.

I have always been curious about Ibogaine, do you have personal experience with this treatment? Can you attest to its efficacy? How was it administered? How long? What were the symptoms like post-treatment? Was PAWS greatly diminished (Post-Acute Withdrawal Syndrome)? Please do tell!

[addx]

Nope, just researched, it's illegal here.... but if the group by jdtic fails(there's a thread) i'll import it illegaly, dont give a shit anymore.

yesterday had a stressfull situation.. spent the entire night with painfull diarhea... it always happens like that... i guess when cortisol plumments the stress gets best of me... i can't take it anymore..

[Synaesthesiac]

I'm sorry man, I feel your pain, been there. Take Loperamide (Immodium), it will fix you. They come in 2mg pills, depending on how bad your tolerance/diarrhea, start will 3 (6mg) and work up until your body feels ok. It won't hit your mew-opiod receptors in your brain, as it only works as an opiate peripherally and doesn't touch the CNS. You have mew-opiod receptors in your gut, however, and it will alleviate 90% of the body withdrawal if you dose it right. I speak from personal experience. I am on Suboxone now, a very low dose, and when I stop that I already have plenty of Loperamide to make the transition painless.

...And I do NOT encourage talking about it, but if your are desperate, the Silk Road can give you access to Ibogaine and Suboxone, but that's tricky, because you may be tempted to make your situation worse with some of the items you find there. I won't tell anybody how to do this, but its not hard to find out. Please do NOT speak about the road if you can avoid it, we like to keep it as far off the radar as we can. PM me if you are desperate.

Edited by Synaesthesiac, 14 August 2013 - 05:50 PM.

[addx]

We're trying to get a supplier for the experimental JDTic. It should stop withdrawals instantly looking at studies available on kappa opioid antagonists on pubmed. But it's difficult to find a legit source....

[extroverinstinct]

I said in another thread that skinned(shiny part scraped off) lemon peals works wonders for most of the symptoms experienced during Opiate withdrawal.

Other things that can help. TONS OF MARIJUANA.

Stabilium, during withdrawal I would say about 4 pills 3 x's a day, by day 4 4 pills 2x day for 3 days, then 4 pills a day for as long as you'd like

Selank
Semax
Cerebrolysin
The lemon peel dealt with diarrhea and cold sweats for me(hesperidin is a kappa agonist) I'm not quite sure how it helped with the physical effect but it sure does.
Dextromethorphan(60mg per day during withdrawals)
Emsam for rls(i have terrible rls but only induced when i drink too much or detox opiates)

I've used poppy tea for years about 3 years(it really enhances my memory by reducing stress, and I have terrible diarhea due to an autoimmune condition so it helps with that). Since day 1 I have never increased dosage and I use substances that inhibit/reverse tolerance(I'm apprehensive about listing these anywhere)
Also I noticed when I take C60, pqq, Nr-ala and eat dark chocolate I feel better anytime(during withdrawals or not) I should mention when I do go through withdrawals even when I have no depression, diarhea I get terrible high blood pressure. I am prone to aggressive outbursts.
Berberine helps
Olive leaf extract helps with low adrenaline levels(must be taken with probiotic to increase oleuropein 2 hydroxytyrosol turnover)

I read somewhere that cortisol is lowered during withdrawal, is this true? I take 800mg phosphatidylserine daily and If I ever do stop taking poppies I might also have to stop the Phosphatidylserine as well(lowers cortisol)

Edited by extroverinstinct, 23 August 2013 - 05:38 AM.