60 replies to this topic

[aconita]

It is very likely that any drugs, present or future, will carry side effects, probably not always very pleasant.

For someone writing on a longevity forum it seems to me a bit of a non-sense to consider compromising health for a bunch of hairs on the forehead that anyway are not guarantee to stay there.

Unfortunately research is done by whom may have a profit from it, that means it has to be a patentable drug, it will be very unlikely for somebody to do a double-blind-years-long-multi-milion dollars clinical study on a natural product, when it is done is in the hope to isolate one responsible substance and reproduce it synthetically in order to be able to patent it.

The lack of scientifically studies proving something works doesn't PROVE it doesn't works, it just points out we may not know for sure how, why and if it works...yet.

Anyway even with minoxidil it is not really clear how it works beyond favoring vase-dilatation and if it is not that alone doing the trick.

Ginkgo biloba will probably work the same, carrying other health benefits as well, without any side effect, used both internally and topically.

I'll prefer to play safe and eventually mixing some ginkgo extract powder to emu oil (which is a good penetrant too) plus something like 400mg/day ginkgo extract internally, plus maybe SSKI topical, plus sound diet/lifestyle, plus avoiding any commercial shampoo (use powder shampoo: herbal, clay or even just baking soda), plus washing hairs not more than once a week.

Checking thyroid function may be a smart idea since it seem the issue is not genetically related (usually it is).

Dermaroller too may work well but it has to be employed in a way different from what is usually recommended: it probably needs deep insertion of the needles (bleeding, causing so called "petecchia") once a year or 6 months.

Out of curiosity note that studies about hydrolyzed collagen supplementation reports increased thickness and density of hairs...if more collagen means healthier hairs (and it makes sense to me since hairs are made of collagen too) are we sure using a substance decreasing collagen is a smart idea?

I'll rather try to increase collagen production with the help of maybe MSM, DMSO, hydrolyzed collagen, centella, etc...

No, I don't think there are scientifically studies proving above any doubt the mentioned will work in restoring hairs, stopping their losing or greying or growing them back...but at least we can be quite sure at worst not to cause any much more serious health issue.

Primum non nocere, it is usually what is first taught in medicine school...and first forgotten!

[Stefanovic]

This is something I should add. When I touch those bald spots, it doesnt feel bald. It looks bald but it feels like there are small hairs on it.

I've read many stories on natural supplements and hair loss, hair darkening, but in the end most reviews are like: tried this for 12 months with no results. The question is: do I wanna go through another 6-12 months ending up dissappointed and having lost much money.

I can for instance order MSM supplements, but what is the best brand? Has it been proven to work? Do I have to take all those other supplements you mention?

[Heyman]

It is very likely that any drugs, present or future, will carry side effects, probably not always very pleasant.

I would not agree with that one. The good thing about hair loss is that topical solutions might help, solutions that do not get systemic. Look at CB 03 01, its a solution that works topically but apparently gets inactive and harmless once it enters the bloodstream. Studies in animals with very high doses show it does nothing because it becomes a harmless substance once it enters the bloodstream. This would be the perfect side-effect free solution, we just need to wait a few years.

Unfortunately research is done by whom may have a profit from it, that means it has to be a patentable drug, it will be very unlikely for somebody to do a double-blind-years-long-multi-milion dollars clinical study on a natural product, when it is done is in the hope to isolate one responsible substance and reproduce it synthetically in order to be able to patent it.

The lack of scientifically studies proving something works doesn't PROVE it doesn't works, it just points out we may not know for sure how, why and if it works...yet.

There are studies on "natural" products like saw plametto. And natural does not mean its safe or healthy either, lots of "natural" toxic substances that kill a man.. I agree with your second sentence. But I wouldn't take anything just because it isn't proven to NOT work, because then I'd need to take everything that hasn't been tested, which is pretty much.. everything except a few substances.

I won't disagree with the rest. If you want to use stuff that has less evidence to back it up just because it is "natural", that is fine. If lots of people would report their results (with pictures) it might be very useful. Theres an interesting community trial on dermarolling here. I'm not sure if it helps or not.

Out of curiosity note that studies about hydrolyzed collagen supplementation reports increased thickness and density of hairs...if more collagen means healthier hairs (and it makes sense to me since hairs are made of collagen too) are we sure using a substance decreasing collagen is a smart idea?

Do you have a link to said study? I'm not an expert, again, but I don't think the whole collagen issue is as simple as some people think. It is proven that minox increases hair count initially. I still would not use minox.

No, I don't think there are scientifically studies proving above any doubt the mentioned will work in restoring hairs, stopping their losing or greying or growing them back...but at least we can be quite sure at worst not to cause any much more serious health issue.

I think you are wrong about assuming that natural generally means healthy. If that is not your opinion (it sounds like it is though) then I'm sorry for misunderstanding you. Lots of toxins are natural. Lots of "medication" comes from isolated substances of natural origin.

I've read many stories on natural supplements and hair loss, hair darkening, but in the end most reviews are like: tried this for 12 months with no results. The question is: do I wanna go through another 6-12 months ending up dissappointed and having lost much money.

The real issue is that in 12 months you may have lost hair. Hair that will never come back. This is the side-effect of using "unproven" treatments that may be the price to pay. The way you write it, you haven't had any significant recession in your hair in the last few hairs, so maybe your hair loss stabilized. I'd see a dermatologized and ask him to check for miniaturization to get a picture of what might happen in the comming months / years first and then decide on what to do.

Edited by Heyman, 23 December 2013 - 12:47 AM.

[Stefanovic]

at this point I want to know what is the best oral collagen enhancer? If the minoxidil would decrease it a bit, I want to stop it by using a good supplement that has been proven to work.

[aconita]

The question is: do I wanna go through another 6-12 months ending up disappointed and having lost much money.

What I suggest doesn't cost much money at all, it's actually pretty cheap and at least if doesn't make improvement to your hairs it will give you some other health benefits: better than nothing.

I can for instance order MSM supplements, but what is the best brand? Has it been proven to work?

MSM basically comes in one quality only, there is not really a "best brand" for it, to be of inferior quality has to be not pure but is such a cheap substance I seriously doubt there is any "bad" MSM on the market.

It tastes quite bitter but I'll avoid capsules because are much more expensive and if one wonts some benefit from taking MSM generous amounts are required (up to 5 gr/day), go for 1kg powder (about 6 months at about 15USD).

As I wrote I doubt there are studies which can be considered above any doubt showing the effectiveness of MSM in hairs growth but certainly sulfur is is essential to healthy hairs.

Do I have to take all those other supplements you mention?

Certainly not, I am just suggesting some of what may work for you without causing unpleasant side-effects.

If you check examine dot com site at ginkgo biloba you'll find they compare it to minoxidil...

About emu oil I already wrote it worked for me...even if it was not really intentional...

SSKI has been reported to work miracles at least for some kind of alopecia, anyway it is very good for your skin and really it cost close to nothing (you probably have to make your own mixing 10gr of distilled water to 14gr of potassium iodide)...

Dermarollers from China are as cheap as 5USD including shipping on eBay, not a great pleasure to use but we do know it triggers new cell growth because of the damages it creates and we also do know that hairs new growth is typical around those damaged areas...

The avoidance of chemicals switching to powder herbal shampoo or clay will put your scalp in better condition to recover and do is own job for sure...

My philosophy is to give our-self an opportunity to heal creating the more favorable conditions as possible (and avoiding the unfavorable ones, of course), I am a strong believer that our body is still the ones who knows better and has the most capacity to heal itself, just let it have a chance.

The good thing about hair loss is that topical solutions might help, solutions that do not get systemic

Minoxidil is used only topically nowadays but it gets systemic with quite a lot of potential side- effects, the problem is that anything applied topically is quite likely to get systemic, if it doesn't probably it will be totally useless because the top layer of the skin is just "dead".

That said of course there are substances that are less toxic than others and even ones that are pretty much harmless...but usually if something needs a prescription it has a pamphlet of several pages about possible side-effects.
.

..natural does not mean its safe or healthy either, lots of "natural" toxic substances that kill a man

Absolutely right, I am not advocating anything natural as safe, I am just writing about natural substances we do know have been proven safe to use in the long term.

One of the advantage of natural remedies is that usually have been tested for a very long period of time on humans, sometimes hundreds or even thousands of years, it may be just anecdotal but...

Do you have a link to said study?

Since I am a new member of this forum I am not allowed to post links yet, but if you search for hydrolyzed collagen supplementation skin/hairs you'll came across a few studies, if I remember well some are on Pubmed.

I think you are wrong about assuming that natural generally means healthy

As I wrote I totally agree with you, even natural substances need to be evaluated very carefully, it is just that usually we do have more experience with natural substances because they have been around for much longer.

As for which one is the best supplement to boost collagen there are many but it seems like vitamin C, MSM, centella, and of course hydrolyzed collagen itself (5gr twice a day) are the leaders of the pack.

I'll like to point out that before even considering any supplement a sound nutrition and lifestyle are mandatory, one can not trash himself and hope to get away swallowing a few supplements...

[Stefanovic]

Do hydrolyzed collagen and MSM work synergetically? where do you buy the best HC? Is it cheap?

[niner]

I think there is some bogus information in this thread. What is the evidence that minoxidil "decreases collagen production"? If all it is is some in vitro study, you can forget about it. It's not going to be a problem in vivo. Are there really people running around with wrinkly scalps from minoxidil? I doubt it. Likewise you can forget about systemic sides from topical minox. Minoxidil started out as an oral drug. The systemic exposure from that is orders of magnitude more than what you'd get from putting some on your head.

[nowayout]

Minoxidil is a growth stimulant. It stimulates hair growth but does nothing against the true cause of male pattern baldness.

Meaning: Someone who uses finasteride will have increased hair counts after a year and will maintain that. Someone who uses Minoxidil will have increased hair count after a year as he stimulated more hair in general. Hair loss will continue though, ...

Unfortunately not the case. It is very common for finasteride to become ineffective eventually and hair loss to continue. This happened to me and online forums on hair loss are full of similar stories.

[nowayout]

Anyway even with minoxidil it is not really clear how it works beyond favoring vase-dilatation and if it is not that alone doing the trick.

Ginkgo biloba will probably work the same, carrying other health benefits as well, without any side effect, used both internally and topically.

I don't think so. The mechanism of action of minoxidil on hair loss is not clear but it is almost certainly NOT via vasodilation.

[aconita]

Do hydrolyzed collagen and MSM work synergetically? where do you buy the best HC? Is it cheap?

Hydrolyzed collagen and MSM works in different ways, HC provide collagen already formed and available, MSM constitutes a substrate that may help in the formation of new collagen, in this regard they are not properly synergistic but that doesn't mean you can't use them together.

I guess it possible to speculate that since collagen comes in many different variants what you don't get from HC (usually collagen type II) you may get with the help of MSM or, if you wish, if the body can spare the effort to produce collagen you directly supply with supplementation it can dedicate to the production of other types of it a more efficient way.

HC cost about 30-40USD/kg, 1kg will last a little more than 3 months (I am not sure about prices in US because I don't live there).

The mechanism of action of minoxidil on hair loss is not clear but it is almost certainly NOT via vasodilation.

"The mechanism by which minoxidil promotes hair growth is not fully understood. Minoxidil contains the nitric oxide chemical moiety and may act as a nitric oxide agonist. Similarly, minoxidil is a potassium channel opener, causing hyperpolarization of cell membranes. Minoxidil is less effective when there is a large area of hair loss. In addition, its effectiveness has largely been demonstrated in younger men who have experienced hair loss for less than 5 years. Minoxidil use is indicated for central (vertex) hair loss only.^[4] Minoxidil is also a vasodilator.^[5] Hypothetically, by widening blood vessels and opening potassium channels, it allows more oxygen, blood, and nutrients to the follicle. This may cause follicles in the telogen phase to shed, which are then replaced by thicker hairs in a new anagen phase".

Likewise you can forget about systemic sides from topical minox

"Minoxidil is generally well tolerated, but common side effects include burning or irritation of the eye, itching, redness or irritation at the treated area, as well as unwanted hair growth elsewhere on the body. Users should discontinue treatment and seek medical attention right away if they experience any of the following serious side effects: severe allergic reactions (e.g. rash, hives, itching, difficulty breathing, tightness in the chest, or swelling of the mouth, face, lips, or tongue), chest pain, dizziness, fainting, tachycardia (rapid heartbeat), sudden and unexplained weight gain, or swelling of the hands and feet.^[6] Hair loss is a common side effect of minoxidil treatment.^[7] Manufacturers note that minoxidil-induced hair loss is a common side effect and describe the process as "shedding". Although this phenomenon demonstrates that minoxidil is indeed affecting hair follicles, manufacturers offer no guarantee that the new hair loss will be replaced with hair growth. The speculated reason for this shedding is the encouragement of hairs already in the telogen phase to shed early.
Alcohol and propylene glycol present in some topical preparations may dry the scalp, resulting in dandruff and contact dermatitis.^[8] Some formulations of minoxidil substitute lipid Nanosomes in order to reduce contact dermatitis from the alcohol and propylene glycol vehicle.^[9][10]
Side effects of oral minoxidil may include swelling of the face and extremities, rapid and irregular heartbeat, lightheadedness, cardiac lesions, and focal necrosis of the papillary muscle and subendocardial areas of the left ventricle.^[11] There have been cases of allergic reactions to minoxidil or the non-active ingredient propylene glycol, which is found in some topical minoxidil formulations. Pseudoacromegaly is an extremely rare side effect reported with large doses of oral minoxidil.^[12]
Although not documented on the label, some patients report side effects of dry skin, dark under-eye circles, and skin redness. Studies have shown that minoxidil can cause collagen depletion in vitro as it is a lysyl hydroxylase inhibitor, an enzyme which is key in collagen production.^[13]
Minoxidil is highly toxic to cats, and may cause death with just inadvertent skin contact"

From wikipedia.

Ginkgo promote nitric oxide production and is a vasodilator.

"Studies have shown that minoxidil can cause collagen depletion in vitro as it is a lysyl hydroxylase inhibitor, an enzyme which is key in collagen production."

If this is the case I am afraid only supplementing with HC may carry some hope of help since it is already available collagen, any other supplement that serve just as a substrate for its formation will be useless.

[nowayout]

It mystifies me that people think oral collagen is going to improve their skin. Aren't they forgetting that proteins get digested? And even if you could get it to just circulate around in your blood, how exactly do you get from there to somehow sticking in the right places onto your skin matrix?

[nowayout]

"Minoxidil is generally well tolerated, but common side effects include burning or irritation of the eye, itching, redness or irritation at the treated area, as well as unwanted hair growth elsewhere on the body. Users should discontinue treatment and seek medical attention right away if they experience any of the following serious side effects: severe allergic reactions (e.g. rash, hives, itching, difficulty breathing, tightness in the chest, or swelling of the mouth, face, lips, or tongue), chest pain, dizziness, fainting, tachycardia (rapid heartbeat), sudden and unexplained weight gain, or swelling of the hands and feet.

None of this is evidence for systemic absorption. Why not warn us about the perils of washing with shampoo if you are going to splatter the stuff into your eye? As for unwanted hair growth, if only it worked that well on the scalp, never mind elsewhere people happen to transfer the stuff. And if you are going to avoid anything people can have rare allergic reactions to, you might as well give up right now and go live in a bubble.

Edited by nowayout, 23 December 2013 - 07:57 AM.

[nowayout]

The mechanism of action of minoxidil on hair loss is not clear but it is almost certainly NOT via vasodilation.

The mechanism by which minoxidil promotes hair growth is not fully understood. Minoxidil contains the nitric oxide chemical moiety and may act as a nitric oxide agonist.

Ginkgo promote nitric oxide production and is a vasodilator.

There is no evidence that minoxidil's effect on hair growth is via NO or vasodilation - in fact many other vasodilators don't grow hair - and no evidence that Gingko promotes hair growth. I don't think it is very helpful to keep promoting personal pet theories without any evidence for them.

[aconita]

Oral collagen in facts gets digested because the molecules composing its proteins are big enogh to be recognized as food and therefore is totally useless, that's gelatine.

Hydrolyzed collagen undergoes a treatment that reduce the size of molecules to amuch lower Dalton weight than the one recognized as food by the organism and reaches indigested the intestine, in facts it is detected in blood stream after not long.

"The hydrolysis process results in reducing the collagen proteins of about 300,000 Da into small peptides having an average molecular weight between 2000 and 5000 Da"

"The bioavailability of hydrolyzed collagen was demonstrated in a 1999 study; mice orally administered ¹⁴C hydrolyzed collagen digested and absorbed more than 90% within 6 hours, with measurable accumulation in cartilage and skin.^[5] A 2005 study found hydrolyzed collagen absorbed as small peptides in the blood.^[6]"

"A preclinical study investigated the effects of oral ingestion of hydrolyzed collagen, along with vitamin C and glucosamine, suggested that the moisture content of skin, its viscoelastic properties, and smoothness benefit.^[7]
The mechanism of action of ingested hydrolyzed collagen on skin may be the increased density of collagen fibrils and the fibroblasts' density (the fibroblasts being the main cells of the dermis, and those producing collagen).^[8] It may be that that the peptides of ingested hydrolyzed collagen have chemotactic properties on fibroblasts^[9] or an influence on growth of fibroblasts."

From Wikipedia.

Hydrolyzed collagen is not the same as collagen (gelatine).

it is enough a very brief and easy research on Pubmed to find out a lot of studies about it.

[aconita]

difficulty breathing, tightness in the chest, or swelling of the mouth, face, lips, or tongue), chest pain, dizziness, fainting, tachycardia (rapid heartbeat), sudden and unexplained weight gain, or swelling of the hands and feet.

If those are not signs of systemic absorbtion what are they, placebo?

And those are not the only side effects possible by topical use of minoxidil.

"Effetti sistemici: l’applicazione topica di minoxidil potrebbe determinare l’insorgenza di effetti sistemici (edema, tachicardia, angina, versamento pericardico, ipotensione); monitorare il paziente per individuare l’eventuale insorgenza di tali effetti^[2]."

I don't espect anybody to be able read Italian but with the help of google translator you'll get an idea:

"Systemic effects: the topical application of minoxidil may determine the onset of systemic effects (edema, tachycardia, angina, pericardial effusion, hypotension); monitor the patient to detect the possible occurrence of these effects"

From Wikipedia Italy.

There is no evidence that minoxidil's effect on hair growth is via NO or vasodilation

No infacts we don't know yet how exactely minoxidil works but we do know that does effect NO and vasodilation and those factors, probably together with others, are responsible for its action, as stated in the full Wikipedia article I posted.

"A 70% ethanolic extract of the leaves is able to promote hair regrowth when fed orally to mice"
http://examine.com/s...oba/#summary9-0

"Another plausible explanation could be blood flow enhancement, where increased blood flow has been noted at 5% topical Minoxidil but not lesser doses.^[6]"
http://examine.com/s...ents/Minoxidil/

I have got more evidence about it but I do have to search for it in my library, maybe later...

Anyway this should already be enough to show that is not just my pet theory, actually there are products containing both ginkgo and minoxidil too, why if ginkgo is just MY pet theory?

I never stated that ginkgo will regrow hairs, I suggested that it may well do the same job as minoxidil without the side
effects therefore maybe it could be a smart choice to try it out first to see how it works, anyway it shows potential backed by science (apart for its use in traditional herbal medicine), in the other hand is not that minoxidil is backed by such a big deal of entusiastic positive research and users' satisfaction.

I suppose I have reached enough posts by now to be allowed to insert links, if not I do apologise. :D

[Stefanovic]

The sources of hydrolized collagen I find online are much more expensive than 30-40 dollars/kg.
I hope we can elaborate on the effects of oral collagen on skin aging.

[Heyman]

As I wrote I doubt there are studies which can be considered above any doubt showing the effectiveness of MSM in hairs growth but certainly sulfur is is essential to healthy hairs.

My philosophy is to give our-self an opportunity to heal creating the more favorable conditions as possible (and avoiding the unfavorable ones, of course), I am a strong believer that our body is still the ones who knows better and has the most capacity to heal itself, just let it have a chance.

You have a good philosophy there... The issue with hair loss: Its not a disease, its not like anything is wrong with your body. I'm sure lots of people got all nutritients etc... they need for their hair but their genes are responsible for the hair loss, not sure if this can be halted by living a healthy lifestyle because hair loss is not unhealthy.

Minoxidil is used only topically nowadays but it gets systemic with quite a lot of potential side- effects, the problem is that anything applied topically is quite likely to get systemic, if it doesn't probably it will be totally useless because the top layer of the skin is just "dead".

Actually lots of topically applied substances can reach the hair follicle. There are studies done on CB 03 01, applied topically (through some weird way) that halted hair loss even more then fin does. And its known it does get systemic but it gets converted to something harmless. So yes it does help (proven) while at the same time being seemingly harmless from all the evidence we have. This really IMO seems to be the most promising future treatment.

I agree with all of the rest you wrote. IMO a healthy lifestyle is mandatory. But I doubt it will have a large effect on hair loss, since hair loss (at least androgenetic hair loss) is not connected to a lack of health as far as I know.

I think there is some bogus information in this thread. What is the evidence that minoxidil "decreases collagen production"? If all it is is some in vitro study, you can forget about it. It's not going to be a problem in vivo. Are there really people running around with wrinkly scalps from minoxidil? I doubt it. Likewise you can forget about systemic sides from topical minox. Minoxidil started out as an oral drug. The systemic exposure from that is orders of magnitude more than what you'd get from putting some on your head.

There are lots of people claiming they got wrinkles etc... But thats just anecdotes. I agree that the evidence is not strong, I hope I made that clear in my last post. Is it actually established that minox does NOT work through systemic effects as well?

Unfortunately not the case. It is very common for finasteride to become ineffective eventually and hair loss to continue. This happened to me and online forums on hair loss are full of similar stories.

There is a 10-year study that was done, showing that people who had good results with finasteride to begin with continued to have good results while people that had bad results to begin with continued losing hair. This is the reason why on average people lose also with fin after a few years, but this is mainly a statistical issue caused by the people that don't respond well to fin, which is about 1/10. It is expected that some people will have the issue you talk about. The majority doesn't, at least not within a 10-year timespan.

Edited by Heyman, 23 December 2013 - 07:04 PM.

[aconita]

The sources of hydrolized collagen I find online are much more expensive than 30-40 dollars/kg.

Where are you from?

I hope we can elaborate on the effects of oral collagen on skin aging.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....supplement skin
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/19723203
http://www.livestron...d-and-dry-skin/

etc...

It seems to improve skin aging, personally I have to say that after 1 year of supplementation I didn't noticed a big difference but certainly not a worsening, don't espect miracles but several studies all show improvement in wrinkles etc...

The issue with hair loss: Its not a disease, its not like anything is wrong with your body. I'm sure lots of people got all nutritients etc... they need for their hair but their genes are responsible for the hair loss, not sure if this can be halted by living a healthy lifestyle because hair loss is not unhealthy.

It depends...there are "normal" hair losses due to aging, hormonal/genetic reasons that are definitely not a disease and there are premature losses/greying due to nutritional deficiencies, unhealthy lifestyle, pathologies, etc...

For sure if nutrition and lifestyle are at their best it will be easier to be in good health, if one is in good health it will be more likely that all the functions will be at their best, including hairs growth.

It is a bit like training in sport: obviously not every athlete who trains will be a world champion but everybody can be the best of himself.

Beyond that there is whom doesn't have the genetic potential to be a champion and wants anyway be a champion...this will likely lead to doping (artificially do what naturally is not in our capabilities).

If ones' genetics calls for shading hairs in despite full health probably there will be a price to pay, it is all amatter of how big is the price compared to the satisfaction of the wish.

Of course if research comes with solutions involving a little or negligible price to pay why not?

At present it seems to me that the price to pay is still to big if one has to fight his genetics therefore I don't really consider it a viable option, better to try to be the best you can...and if you are not going to become the next world champion or you'll shade some hairs at least you'll be healthy and kicking.

[Stefanovic]

Thanks, I'm from Belgium.

[aconita]

Try to find in Germany some seller (usually online drugstores) who sell this:

http://www.berco-arz...-hydrolysat.htm

Shipping will rise the price but if you buy enough for 1 year or so it will not be so bad.

I hope this will not be perceived as spam since I don't have any involvement with the above mentioned product.

Another option is to find a factory producing hydrolyzed collagen (maybe in Belgium) and check if they sell to privates (some does), usually they are gelatin producer, you'll have to google a bit but I am sure you'll come across some, usually there is a minimum order of at least 25kg bag, a bit too much for a single individual...but collagen has a best before of 4-5 years.

Don't worry about marine collagen because it is much more expensive and I doubt it gives real advantages, most collagen is from pigs skin and is absolutely OK.

[ta5]

Oral collagen in facts gets digested because the molecules composing its proteins are big enogh to be recognized as food and therefore is totally useless, that's gelatine.

Hydrolysis is a basic function of digestion. Hydrolyzed protein supplements are sometimes described as being "pre-digested". It's supposed to be easier to digest and absorb.

Digestion does not destroy the amino acids. Some important ones in gelatin or collagen are lysine, proline, hydroxylysine, and hydroxyproline.

it is enough a very brief and easy research on Pubmed to find out a lot of studies about it.

Can you find any studies that say "hydrolyzed collagen" is more effective than gelatin?

[aconita]

Digestion doesn't destroy amino-acids, of course, digestion breaks down proteins into amino-acids and then the amino-acids have to be re-composed in whatever the organism needs, it can be anything from bones to muscles to skin or whatever.

We do make collagen from the amino-acids we get from eating proteins but if for any reason we want more collagen than we currently are able make things gets a bit more complicated.

Basically we have 4 different scenarios:

- we are aging and with aging the process of making collagen slows down, probably due to a lesser activity of the specific enzyme that converts amino-acids into collagen or whatever but for sure collagen production slows down

- we suffer a pathology of some kind that inhibits or slows down the production of collagen

- we suffer a condition that will benefit from a collagen production that goes beyond our capability

- we lack of the nutrients necessary to an optimal collagen production

In the first 3 cases just eating enough proteins will not be enough, supplementing vitamin C, centella, MSM, glucosamine, etc... may help a little bit but basically we are not able to make enough of it starting from the substrates and it will be unlikely that providing more substrates will be of much help.

In the last case, of course, it will be enough to adjust the nutrition and with the help of supplements providing a good substrate we'll be able to make enough collagen to be happy with.

In the first 3 cases supplementing with Hydrolyzed collagen seems an easy and relatively cheap way of dealing with the issue and research seems to show that it works, at least to certain extent.

This is a simplification of the whole issue but it is just to give a rough idea.

Hydrolyzed collagen has much smaller molecules than gelatin, or any food for that matter, therefore it is not recognized by the digestive system as food and goes "undetected" straight to the intestine where is absorbed into the blood stream as it is or at least it seems most of it is.

This way the organism doesn't have to deal with amino-acids, decide how many of them have to go into collagen, activate the necessary enzymes, etc...in order to make it but the collagen is already there ready to go where it is needed.

In other words we jump pass a few passages that may be tricky for the the elderly, sick or otherwise impaired subject to deal with.

This allows to get more collagen available for certain pathologies too, like osteoarthritis for example, that will benefit from it, in our case the hairs and skin.

There is no need for any studies showing that hydrolyzed collagen is more effective than gelatin, gelatin are just proteins like eating meat or any other animal origin food, Hydrolyzed collagen is not food and doesn't undergo the digestive process.

The question may be: are we sure that hydrolyzed collagen goes in the blood stream?

The answer is yes, because after supplementing it if we take a blood sample we find it there, one of the llnks I already provided shows that and there are many other studies too but, really, it is quite time consuming to dig all them out, I did it in the past and sincerely I am not not so willing to do it again just to prove a point I already know, if you really want to make sure do your own research and I promise you'll be rewarded.

[ta5]

Hydrolyzed collagen has much smaller molecules than gelatin, or any food for that matter, therefore it is not recognized by the digestive system as food....

Nonsense.

[aconita]

What is a nonsense?

Maybe it will a smarter choice to first read at least what wikipedia has to say, it's that so difficult?

https://en.wikipedia...olyzed_collagen

To make thing even easier for you:

"The hydrolysis process results in reducing the collagen proteins of about 300,000 Da into small peptides having an average molecular weight between 2000 and 5000 Da"

"The bioavailability of hydrolyzed collagen was demonstrated in a 1999 study; mice orally administered ¹⁴C hydrolyzed collagen digested and absorbed more than 90% within 6 hours, with measurable accumulation in cartilage and skin.^[5] A 2005 study found hydrolyzed collagen absorbed as small peptides in the blood.^[6]"

Dalton (DA) is unit of measure of molecular size (molecular mass), do you need a study to understand that 2000DA is much smaller than 300.000DA?

If you doubt that a 500.000DA needs to broken down by digestion in order to be absorbed while a 2000DA molecule can pass the intestine barrier directly into the blood stream it will be better for you to do some homework first.

[Logic]

Add coffee and aspirin to your shampoo.

Also take a baby aspirin (81mg) daily. Vitamin C will all but negate stomach/intestinal damage from aspirin.

I also add supps like resveratrol and astragalas to my shampoo. (do a search for topical supps hair)
There is doubt as to how much of these are absorbed and their effectiveness, but it cant hurt.

I am not going to post links as I don't have the time but you will find them all on this site and I do seem to have stopped my receding hairline.
https://www.google.c...gecity.org hair

Rooibos Tea is said to be effective at raising Catalase levels.
Do a similar site search to the one above to find out more.

[Heyman]

It depends...there are "normal" hair losses due to aging, hormonal/genetic reasons that are definitely not a disease and there are premature losses/greying due to nutritional deficiencies, unhealthy lifestyle, pathologies, etc...

Certainly. I read somewhere that about 90% of hair loss that occurs in men is androgenetic. Not quite sure about that number, but for most people the reason is simply not bad health. If it is, you likely won't lose hair in the typical pattern that the OP does but you'd lose hair all over the place.

Add coffee and aspirin to your shampoo.

Is there evidence that coffee and aspirin does help with hair loss?

[Stefanovic]

The thing is: you can start combining 10-20 different things and get results but in the end only 1 ingredient did the job which means you wanna keep using all those 20 ingredients because you don't know what actually worked. I'm not in a position that I can afford spending hundreds of dollars a month on a regimen. I only want to use what really works.

[ta5]

What is a nonsense?

That amino acids will not be recognized as food.

Gelatin is hydrolyzed collagen. Non-gelatin hydrolyzed collagen simply has no gel strength.

Gelatin is easy to digest and typically less expensive than other hydrolyzed collagens marketed for joint health.

There may be some differences in particle size between various brands of hydrolyzed collagens or gelatins, but I have yet to see any significance of that beyond speculation. And, we have studies showing benefits from gelatin.

[Stefanovic]

Thank you, where do you find decent gelatin? And where can I find those studies. What extactly does it do for anti aging?

[aconita]

Who stated that amino-acids are not recognized as food?

Anyway they are not, they are costituents of some food, which is a very different thing.

I am speaking about molecular sizes here, do you know what that is?

"Gelatin is a mixture of peptides and proteins produced by partial hydrolysis of collagen"

"The hydrolysis process results in reducing the collagen proteins of about 300,000 Da into small peptides"

From Wikipedia

Gelatin is a mixture of peptides and proteins, hydrolyzed collagen is JUST peptides.

Do you know the difference between proteins and peptides?

Partial hydrolysis is not hydrolysis, it is PARTIAL, it means there are molecules still too big and need digestion in order to be broken down into amino-acids and get absorbed.

In fact gelatin is very cheap while hydrolyzed collagen is much more expensive in comparison, they are usually produced by the the same factories but HC needs to undergo more processes .

Even hydrolyzed collagen comes in different DA weights it has to be below 5000DA in order to bypass the digestive system or it will be digested and it has to be taken at least 1 hour before meals or 3 hours after otherwise it will be digested together with the food.

"Digested" means it will be broken down into smaller molecules able to enter the blood stream, amino-acids in this case

It is quite simple to understand: hydrolyzed collagen is made from gelatin but is not the same as gelatin, in fact it has a different name too.

Nobody denies the fact that even gelatin has interesting nutritional proprieties but it is a very different thing from HC and if it is not clear by now I really don't know how to explain it better.

But all this is alredy very well known by anybody whom has done the even smallest basic research about collagen and it is getting boring.

I think you are just climbing on glasses just for the sake of contradict me without knowing what you are speaking about.