21 replies to this topic

[ironfistx]

So I've been reading about ginseng and it seems you have a lot to consider.  There are different types and you have to check what it says on the bottle.

 

There is Korean and American ginseng, each of which is supposed to have different effects, but similar still.

 

Some supplements list a standardized amount percentage.  For example, it might say standardized to 5%, and if there are 100mg per pill, that means you are getting 5mg of ginsenosides.  Some types don't even list a percentage, and I think those are low quality because otherwise they would yet put it on the label.  Also on some labels it lists different parts, like root, or plant.  So some of that might just be filler.  And then I think I read on here that too high of a percentage means it had something else added to it and isn't the highest quality, either.  And then there are some with extract ingredients that are supposed to be equivalent to a higher doses, so you'll have a smaller dose that is the same as a listed dose.

 

Basically, what is the correct dosage one should start with?  Should you base it on ginsencosides rather than the total amount listed in the pill?  Is there a certain standardized level you shouldn't go above?

 

And what about the different types of ginsenosides?  I'm still looking at different products and everything.

[ironfistx]

Double post - delete

Edited by ironfistx, 23 June 2014 - 07:52 PM.

[ironfistx]

Double post. Delete.

Edited by ironfistx, 23 June 2014 - 08:27 PM.

[ironfistx]

Here are some examples illustrating:

 

Full Spectrum Korean Red Ginseng Root

 

 

Ingredients: Korean Red Ginseng Root (Panax ginseng) 400mg

 

The ginsenosides are not listed.  You can see it here.

 

Korean Ginseng

 

 

Ingredients: Panax ginseng (root) 500mg

 

No mention is made of the extract standardized.  You can see it here.

 

American Ginseng

 

 

Ingredients: American Ginseng Root (Panax quinquefolius) 550mg

 

Percentage isn't mentioned.  You can see it here.

 

American Ginseng (Standardized)

 

 

Ingredients: American Ginseng Root Extract (10% ginsenosides) 300mg, American Ginseng Root 200mg

 

The percent is listed but what is the second ingredient?  You can see it here.

 

Red Panax Ginseng Liquid Extract (Alcohol & Sugar Free)

 

 

Ingredients: Panax Ginseng Extract 1:1 (root) 1gram

 

It doesn't mention the ginsenosides.  You can see it here.

 

Korean Red Ginseng

 

 

Ingredients: Korean Red Ginseng (Panax ginseng C.A. Meyer root powder) 600mg

 

The percentage is not listed.  You can see it here.

 

Ultra Strength Red Panax Ginseng Extractum

 

 

Ingredients: Panax Ginseng Root Extract 400mg

 

There is no mention of the standardized amount.  You can see it here.

 

Tienchi Ginseng

 

 

Ingredients: Tienchi Ginseng (Panax notoginseng) root powder 1,000mg

 

It doesn't list the percentage.  You can see it here.

 

So from some ginseng products you can tell that only a few of them actually tell you what is in them.

[ironfistx]

Is it correct, then, that if a supplement does not specify the amount of ginsenosides that it probably doesn't have very meany?  Should the only supplements that actually specify this be used?  Is there anything else in the pill that could be helpful?  For example, if you have 300mg of ginseng and it's standardzied to 15%, is there anything else helpful in the rest of it?  Is the amount of standardized the only thing that should be taken into account when selecting a choice?  Is there a significant difference between American and Korean?  I know there are other types but those seem to be the main styles.

[MrSpud]

Here's an oversimplification. If it's ginseng root ground up they typically don't measure and list ginsenosides. If it is ginseng extract it is either a standardized extract where the amount of ginsenosides is measured and controlled or it is a non standardized extract where it is a concentrate but the amount of ginsenosides isn't controlled. There are two main types of ginsenosides, one type is more water soluble and the other type is more alcohol soluble. Some ginsenosides are stimulating others are relaxing. The ratio of the different types of ginsenosides is different for different plant parts and immature roots have a different ratio than mature roots. Some parts, like the leaves, can have high total ginsenosides but they aren't considered to be as good as mature root which may have a lower total ginsenoside content but a better ratio of the different types of ginsenosides. Here's a paper I just found on google real quickly that starts to describe this stuff on page 4 http://www.ema.europ...WC500142080.pdf

[MrSpud]

Here's another example showing how the different ratios of ginsenosides cause totally different effects:

Circulatory system. Ginseng has been reported to cause either decreased blood pressure or increased blood pressure. In some cases, it enhanced the recovery of cardio-hemodynamic functions in patients undergoing open heart surgery. Scientists at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology have discovered that ginseng extracts with a ratio of Rg1/Rb1 greater than one will promote growth of new blood vessels (angiogenesis) and a ratio less than one will inhibit growth (Sengupta et al. 2004).

That was from http://www.newworlde...g/entry/Ginseng which also describes the different ginsenosides as follows:
The ginseng root has been the focus of many chemical studies in an attempt to understand the nature of its active ingredients. This section will focus on those compounds that seem to be specific to ginseng.
Many plants contain a group of compounds known as saponins, but the saponins within ginseng are unique and have been named ginsenosides. These compounds resemble steroids and are known as tetracyclic damarane saponins, which have carbohydrate groups attached at several points. When, in the course of isolation, the carbohydrate portion is removed, the remaining portion is called an aglycone or sapogenin and can be categorized as either a panaxadiol or a panaxatriol.
The ginsenosides were first isolated by thin layer chromatography and named alphabetically according to how far they migrated on the plate in a given system, such as Rb1, Rb2, Re, Rc. At present, about 30 ginsenosides have been identified (Kennedy et al. 2003), each of these can be further classified as belonging to either the panaxadiol group, panaxatriol group, or the oleanolic acid group. Within the ginseng plant, the precursors of the panaxadiol type and panaxatriol type are known respectively as protopanaxadiol and protopanaxatriol. Similarly, within mammals, the metabolic breakdown products have been identified as either protopanaxadiols or protopanaxatriols.
Ginseng root also contains a group of compounds known as polyacetylenes. One of these, panaxynol or falcarinol, was able to stimulate neurite growth in cell culture (Wang et al. 2006).
Numerous polysaccharides or glycans have been reported in Panax ginseng and named sequentially panaxan A through U. The glycans in Panax quinquefolius have been named quinquefolans. The complete structure for these glycans has not been reported

[MrSpud]

As to what's the "best" ginseng spec, I guess it depends on what you are trying to achieve. Here's something that describes that pretty good:
Medical application of Panax ginseng was first found in "Shen-Nong Herbal Classic"around 200 AD Panax quinquefolium was first introduced in "Essential of Materia Medica" in 1694 in China. The most important bioactive components contained in P ginseng and P quinquefolium are ginseng saponins (GS). The contents of ginsenoside Rb1, Re, and Rd in P quinquefolium are higher than they are in P ginseng. In P ginseng, the contents of Rg1,Rb2, and Rc are higher than they are in P quinquefolium. P ginseng had a higher ratio of Rg1: Rb1, and which was lower in P quinquefolium. After steaming for several hours, the total GS will decrease. However, some ginsenosides (Rg2, 20R-Rg2, Rg3, Rh1 and Rh2) increase, while others (Rb1, Rb2, Rb3, Rc, Rd, Re, and Rg1) decrease. However, variation, especially in P quinquefolium, is high. P ginseng and P quinquefolium are general tonics and adaptogens. Rg1 and Rb1 enhance central nervous system (CNS) activities, but the effect of the latter is weaker. Thus, for the higher contents of Rg1, P ginseng is a stimulant, whereas the Rb1 contents of P quinquefolium are mainly calming to the CNS. Re, Rg1, panaxan A and B from P ginseng are good for diabetes. Re and Rg1 enhance angiogenesis, whereas Rb1, Rg3 and Rh2 inhibit it. Rh2, an antitumor agent, can be obtained from Rb1 by steaming. The content of Re in P quinquefolium are higher than in P ginseng by 3-4 times. The vasorelax, antioxidant, antihyperlipidemic, and angiogenic effects of Re are reported. Thus, for the CNS "hot," wound healing and hypoglycemic effects, P ginseng is better than P quinquefolium. For anticancer effects, P quinquefolium is better.

That was from http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/18718179

[GoingPrimal]

Good posts MrSpud.

 

Here's what I know from a Traditional Chinese Medicine view of things.

 

Panax Ginseng is generally hotter, more stimulating and thus more "Yang" than American Ginseng. Generally, the older the roots of either plant, the better. Wild growing plants are of highest quality; wild-crafted, i.e. planted by humans out in the wild, are of second best quality, while field cultivated or hothouse cultivated are of lowest quality. Almost all the ginseng products out there are field or hothouse cultivated, and you will be paying more money for wildcrafted ginseng - and unless you're a ginseng connoisseur, you won't be willing to dish out the money required for real wild ginseng.

 

With ginseng you get what you pay for. I've used low grade Panax ginsengs and felt either nothing or uncomfortable levels of stimulation. Having payed a few extra bucks I've come to really enjoy a well made ginseng product.

 

There are two hydroethanolic extracted ginseng products at Dragon Herbs I've used, Ginseng Sublime and House Ginseng, one for 40 and the other for 30 bucks respectively. I enjoyed them both quite a bit, but feel free to shop around and buy Swanson or any other brand and report back.

[ironfistx]

Here's an oversimplification. If it's ginseng root ground up they typically don't measure and list ginsenosides. If it is ginseng extract it is either a standardized extract where the amount of ginsenosides is measured and controlled or it is a non standardized extract where it is a concentrate but the amount of ginsenosides isn't controlled. There are two main types of ginsenosides, one type is more water soluble and the other type is more alcohol soluble. Some ginsenosides are stimulating others are relaxing. The ratio of the different types of ginsenosides is different for different plant parts and immature roots have a different ratio than mature roots. Some parts, like the leaves, can have high total ginsenosides but they aren't considered to be as good as mature root which may have a lower total ginsenoside content but a better ratio of the different types of ginsenosides. Here's a paper I just found on google real quickly that starts to describe this stuff on page 4 http://www.ema.europ...WC500142080.pdf

 

Looking at that, would it be better to try and get certain types of ginsenosides then?  I have not seen it listed very often.

[ironfistx]

Here's another example showing how the different ratios of ginsenosides cause totally different effects:

Circulatory system. Ginseng has been reported to cause either decreased blood pressure or increased blood pressure. In some cases, it enhanced the recovery of cardio-hemodynamic functions in patients undergoing open heart surgery. Scientists at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology have discovered that ginseng extracts with a ratio of Rg1/Rb1 greater than one will promote growth of new blood vessels (angiogenesis) and a ratio less than one will inhibit growth (Sengupta et al. 2004).

 
That sounds significantly affecting.  In what cases would one want to alter the growth of new blood vessels, and how can it be identified which types of extracts are in vrious supplements?

Edited by ironfistx, 31 July 2014 - 05:32 PM.

[ironfistx]

As to what's the "best" ginseng spec, I guess it depends on what you are trying to achieve. Here's something that describes that pretty good:
Medical application of Panax ginseng was first found in "Shen-Nong Herbal Classic"around 200 AD Panax quinquefolium was first introduced in "Essential of Materia Medica" in 1694 in China. The most important bioactive components contained in P ginseng and P quinquefolium are ginseng saponins (GS). The contents of ginsenoside Rb1, Re, and Rd in P quinquefolium are higher than they are in P ginseng. In P ginseng, the contents of Rg1,Rb2, and Rc are higher than they are in P quinquefolium. P ginseng had a higher ratio of Rg1: Rb1, and which was lower in P quinquefolium. After steaming for several hours, the total GS will decrease. However, some ginsenosides (Rg2, 20R-Rg2, Rg3, Rh1 and Rh2) increase, while others (Rb1, Rb2, Rb3, Rc, Rd, Re, and Rg1) decrease. However, variation, especially in P quinquefolium, is high. P ginseng and P quinquefolium are general tonics and adaptogens. Rg1 and Rb1 enhance central nervous system (CNS) activities, but the effect of the latter is weaker. Thus, for the higher contents of Rg1, P ginseng is a stimulant, whereas the Rb1 contents of P quinquefolium are mainly calming to the CNS. Re, Rg1, panaxan A and B from P ginseng are good for diabetes. Re and Rg1 enhance angiogenesis, whereas Rb1, Rg3 and Rh2 inhibit it. Rh2, an antitumor agent, can be obtained from Rb1 by steaming. The content of Re in P quinquefolium are higher than in P ginseng by 3-4 times. The vasorelax, antioxidant, antihyperlipidemic, and angiogenic effects of Re are reported. Thus, for the CNS "hot," wound healing and hypoglycemic effects, P ginseng is better than P quinquefolium. For anticancer effects, P quinquefolium is better.

That was from http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/18718179

Most supplements don't mention which of those are in their specific ingredients. The contents usually just have the type of plant.

[ironfistx]

Good posts MrSpud.
 
Here's what I know from a Traditional Chinese Medicine view of things.
 
Panax Ginseng is generally hotter, more stimulating and thus more "Yang" than American Ginseng. Generally, the older the roots of either plant, the better. Wild growing plants are of highest quality; wild-crafted, i.e. planted by humans out in the wild, are of second best quality, while field cultivated or hothouse cultivated are of lowest quality. Almost all the ginseng products out there are field or hothouse cultivated, and you will be paying more money for wildcrafted ginseng - and unless you're a ginseng connoisseur, you won't be willing to dish out the money required for real wild ginseng.
 
With ginseng you get what you pay for. I've used low grade Panax ginsengs and felt either nothing or uncomfortable levels of stimulation. Having payed a few extra bucks I've come to really enjoy a well made ginseng product.
 
There are two hydroethanolic extracted ginseng products at Dragon Herbs I've used, Ginseng Sublime and House Ginseng, one for 40 and the other for 30 bucks respectively. I enjoyed them both quite a bit, but feel free to shop around and buy Swanson or any other brand and report back.

So for age, then, would something like this: http://www.vitaminsh...13#.U9pyIFdvCtU Solaray with the ingredients: KOREAN GINSENG(PANAX GINSENG)(4 TO 6 YEAR OLD ROOT) be better than something like this that just says root and doesn't mention age or anything: https://www.swansonv...250-mg-300-caps with the ingredients: Korean Ginseng Root or this: https://www.swansonv...550-mg-100-caps which says ingredients: American Ginseng Root (Panax quinquefolius) or something like this: http://www.vitaminsh...78#.U9pskFdvCtU which is just the extract and has the ingredients: AMERICAN GINSENG ROOT FLUID EXTRACT(1:1) GUARANTEED TO CONTAIN A MINIMUM OF 75 MG. OF TOTAL GINSENOSIDES because I'm trying to gt it.

Finally, what is a phytosome and is that something good or is this just trying to be different http://www.vitaminsh...87#.U9pyGldvCtU with the ingredients: KOREAN GINSENG(PANAX GINSENG) ROOT PHYTOSOME BOUND TO PHOSPHATIDYLCHOLINE UNDER PATENT.

[MrSpud]

A phytosome is just Indena's name for when they coat powdered extracts with lecithin to increase their bioavailability. Indena is one of the leading European herbal extract companies. Phytosomes are great for hard to absorb oil soluble things like Curcumin or Milk Thistle extracts, but would probably be less important for things like ginseng. It probably still helps a little bit though. Indena makes pretty good ginseng extracts. They make it from Panax ginseng that I believe is a minimum of either 3 or 4 years old. They control the rg1:rb1 ratio that insures that it maintains the typical ratio of mature roots. I'm not sure what all strengths they make today, but about 15 years ago or so I know they were making some of the G115 extract for Ginsana that was minimum 4% ginsenosides. Most of their other ginseng extracts were not less than 7% ginsenosides. For their phytosomes, I believe they were starting with their 7% ginsenosides material and coating it with the lecithin.

It will be hit and miss trying out commercially produced ginseng finished products. Most companies don't bother looking at the ratio of the ginsenosides. It would probably be better to try out branded ginseng products that list the name of the extract company so at least the product I'll be somewhat consistent. If you like the product it will then at least be predictable.

As for me, I personally get wildcrafted American ginseng from a guy that wild crafts it up in the mountains in North Carolina. He runs a Co-op where he teaches other people how to wildcrafted it and he then buys it from them and he sells the roots on his website (you can check it out at ncgoldenseal.com if you want to). I attended one of his ginseng growing classes years ago and I've been buying a few roots a year from him ever since. I buy whole roots from him that are over 10 years old. He leaves the stem attached to the root. Every year it grows a new section on the stem and you can count the number of sections to see how many years old it is. He told me he had some of his roots tested and they contained about 30% ginsenosides. This is much stronger than most commercially made extract products. The commercially available ones are all made from farmed ginseng which isn't considered to be as good as wild or wild crafted ginseng.

[William Bell]

So, how can we pick the best ginseng supplements?

[ironfistx]

What is the deal with promoting or stopping new blood vessel growth. That sounds like important.

I got some from Nature's Way that says 2% ginsenosides and 560mg per capsule of root extract. I figure it's a low amount but it's probably better to start with a lower quantity. It's Korean ginseng.

Is it better to get one that has extract and root, or is extract fine?

[MrSpud]

I think people looking into promoting or stopping blood vessel growth are researching things like cancer. I remember reading about something called angiogenesis where if you block blood vessel growth then in the early stages of tumor growth the tumors have to grow blood vessels in order to get nutrients needed for them to grow and thrive. But then again, this was all theory and marketing when they first started selling shark cartilage when some guy wrote a popular book called something like "Sharks Don't Get Cancer" that theorized that shark cartilage blocked angiogenesis of blood vessels of cancer tumors. In reality, the book was hype because it is more complicated then all that (and also biologists criticized the book because sharks do get some kinds of cancer). But anyway, I'm just guessing that that would be why the ginseng researchers were looking into this, as a way to make sense out of research showing that some ginsenosides are anti tumor agents whereas others promote angiogenesis. I'm not sure, but probably sometimes promoting blood vessel growth might be a good thing, but if you have tumors it would be better to block blood vessel growth.

I would think that, for commercial products standardized extracts would be good just for the reason that they should be more predictable from lot to lot. More so if they are a branded extract made by a reputable extract manufacturer that, hopefully, even controls and tests for the ginsenoside ratio of rb1:rg1 to make sure it matches the ratio found in mature roots.

[ironfistx]

I have been taking this ginseng supplement since it came last week, and I started with one pill the day I got it and then went up to 2 the next day, which is how much it says to do. The main thing I have noticed recently is that I feel a slight increase in anxiety that lasts most of the day. I'ts like I'm a little hyped up inside. Nothing else has really changed. I'm going to keep taking it and see what happens.

[ironfistx]

Different things seem to suggest a different ideal dose. Some say 400mg a day with 4-7% ginsenosides, which would give you 16-28mg. THere are also pills that have varying level as high as 70% and giving you as much as 150mg. Other stuff I've has said you should only use it for 3 weeks or about that much at a time. I wonder if it loses effect if you keep taking it, or if you just stop feeling it.

[ironfistx]

I was first using a type from Nature's Way that was 550mg per pill and said it contains 2% ginsenosides per pill, so that's 22.4 per dose.

Then I got another selection from the same company that is 500mg per pill and 7% per pill, so that's 35mg per pill or 70mg per set.

I didn't really feel anything from each variation. Not that I was really wanting to, however. Are these supplements that I should take for health and benefit?

Edited by ironfistx, 16 September 2014 - 10:38 PM.

[ironfistx]

There was an article I just saw that mentioned a fermented ginseng style called GS15-4 that is supposed to be 15 times increased absorption or something.  Does anyone know anything related to this?

[ironfistx]

Nature's Way customer email says that their gingseng is aged 5-7 years before being used.