17 replies to this topic

[Lifemap]

1st post I have trying to gather information from this valuable sight yet, i feel like the tool needed to digest it my brain is not working. Ive been resident to post out of difficulty to relay whats going on . However  I'm hoping i can get some direct feedback. I apologize in advanced for the long, unclear, post....

 

    I've been off of my medication for four months and feeling like i am a different person and will never fully heal or  be the same again. I was off on  benzo for 6 yrs, pannic attacts , pain meds 2 year back and pancreatic  . After I sustained  a TBI( traumatic brain injury ) I felt that my crucial healing would  slowed by these meds. So got surgery , pain is managed and I  decided to stop them all. Cold turkey( in hindsight I should of tried to wean or titrate off)  I am trying to find what steps to take.

CURRENT ISSUES   Yet my memory, focus, Thinking is very slow convoluted, processing text, and especially auditory information is incredibly slowed hard to take away much  my previous beliefs, views, epinons are not there.  ( trying to put together information ask questions is beyond frustrating and discouraging.  Almost like my IQ has dropped significantly and there is a severe learning impediment  on top of it mostly memory,focus.

Other symptoms are Extreme lack of drive & fatigue ,emotions numbing/blunted, horrible chronic chest pain and anxiety and depression, become anti social even when anxiety is low.  Anxiety has slowly improved last few weeks  (less severe and panic attacks come  less often)
 

 

( previously tried antidepressants  years ago with major depression to no avail ( ended up just pushing though it and recoverd)  made me feel + depression.  So i'm attempting trying to go natural unless there are some you recommend I have not tried.

 

I did Saliva urine test ad my serotonin was really low, yet my GABA was fine So... I dont know if the test can test levels neurotransmitters in the brain.

Wanting to increase drive motivation , sensation of emotions, get rid of this overall dysphoria. I'm a loss not seeing results with what i'm taking and  don't know what to do to help  mental ability.

is it just going to be time? Or are there things i could take to help facilitate healing +brain function. I just feel so blah shitty, no real emotions up or down, incredibly hard to piece thoughts opinions in to concise thought and verbalize, or to maintain fluid thinking. I've made progress yet i dont know how much longer I can run on the fumes of determination. Did going off meds cold turkey cause more damage and if so how can I heal it? need to get out of this ASAP.

 

 

CURRENT REGIMEN Im eating healthy, regular exercise, meditating and keeping a consistent sleep schedule.  Taking supplements in attempt to help my neurotransmitters get back to homeostasis ( if that is the main issue ).  I a shell of my old self, why keep on this  painful  existence so , yet i'm trying to hold onto what little bit of hope i can for the future . So  thank you in advance for  Any feedback thoughts that might help, I am so greatly appreciative. 

Currently taking following supplements

AM finesteride/ only prescription. fish oil,  Vit d&k , 5mthf,  magnesium oratate , 5htp  b-6 , l-tyrosine, 

PM l-theanine5htp (or l-typtophan), b-6 , l-tyrosine  and melatonin.

  possibilites

( thinking of adding bacopa, rhodiola rosea , & l tyrosine, and possibly  dlpa, and switching 5htp with l-tryptophan?) Any other meds, supplements, nootropics

 

also note (4 days ago had relentless panic attack similar to first few weeks of med. I didn't want to touch benzo, so took small dose of pain med. My anxiety  physical symptoms almost abated  (probably just in remission )and has not return aside form slight fleeting  chest pain, difficulty breathing.. I am thrilled aside from the fact i feel even more blah. ( With anxiety randomly and seldom I'd have  windows of feeling 80% back to self) Possibly I've lost part of the fight response form +cortisol adrenalin etc that .  Curious if  his might help, any ideas of the causality of what I'm experiencing  ,  and what i could do aside from turning to opiates in future.

Edited by Lifemap, 26 October 2014 - 06:38 AM.

[OpaqueMind]

Hi Lifemap, I'm sorry to hear about your problems. I experienced very similar ones from years of extensive drug abuse in my youth. I will tell you now that traditional nootropics aka chemical ones will not solve the problem, and if they help at all, they will be little more than a bandaid. The problem is that there has been significant functional disorganisation of your brain networks, so tweaking neurotransmitters is not going to do much, and may well make it worse, since your NT ratios will have attempted to find homeostasis within the current distorted network configuration, a balance which is more precarious and less flexibly adaptable than that of a neurotypical brain.

 

The good news is that there is a profound solution to this problem, a way to fundamentally reorganise and finetune your cortical networks. This is known as neurofeedback, specifically, TAGsync neurofeedback. I have completely reversed the problems I had, from when, like you feel you are, I was just a ghost in a shell, devoid of vitality and feeling.

 

For more info check out these threads -

The Power Of Neurofeedback

TAGsync Operation and Discussion

 

Also, what you are doing now in terms of lifestyle is great eg meditating, exercising, eating well etc. Keep all that stuff up. If you have any questions about TAGsync, feel free to ask.

Edited by OpaqueMind, 26 October 2014 - 09:42 AM.

[Lifemap]

what are your thoughts on CES ? I assume there are a lot of different products out there for neurofeedback. Shoould i start with a local place? Actually I recall a friend having something to that extent.  Goggles that displayed light patterns and headphones playing different tones. Would this be similar to ends your speaking on ?

Edited by Lifemap, 26 October 2014 - 11:07 PM.

[Nemo888]

Get screened for neuroendocrine dysfunction(NED). It's not uncommon to smash your pituitary when you get your bell rung too hard.

 

Excerpt from the DCOE recommendations;

Clinical Recommendation

Consider NED in the differential diagnosis after confirmed mTBI when symptoms suggestive of NED persist for
greater than three months (or new onset up to 36 months) following injury. These symptoms may include fatigue,
insomnia, impaired cognition and memory loss, difficulty concentrating, emotional and mood disturbance.
Symptoms of NED are similar to the symptoms of other post mTBI medical diagnoses such as sleep disorder,
memory difficulties, depression, PTSD and/or post concussive syndrome.12 Considering NED may avoid a delay in
diagnosis and improve prognosis.4,5,11
Anterior pituitary deficiencies account for the majority of chronic neuroendocrine disorders following mTBI. Growth
hormone and gonadotropin deficiencies are most common, but TSH deficiency (secondary hypothyroidism) and
ACTH deficiency (adrenal insufficiency) may occur as well (less than 10 percent of cases with TBI associated NED).13
Therefore, the following screening strategy is recommended as a rational approach to the initial evaluation in the
primary care environment.
The following describes the typical symptoms suggestive of the previously stated neuroendocrine deficiencies.
»» Growth Hormone Deficiencies: Characterized by loss of lean muscle mass and strength, increased body fat around the waist,
weight gain, reduced heart rate, low blood pressure, constipation, poor memory, lack of concentration, depression, anxiety,
fatigue and decreased sex drive.
»» Gonadotropin Deficiencies (LH/FSH/Testosterone/Estradiol): Characterized by loss of libido, infertility, anemia, hair loss,
decreased muscle mass and strength, amenorrhea and mood disorders.

»» Adrenocorticotropic hormone deficiency: Characterized by hypotension, weight loss, malaise and fatigue.
»» TSH Deficiency: Characterized by weight gain, cold intolerance, impaired short-term memory, dry skin and constipation.
Recommended NED serum screening labs include*:

»» 0800 Cortisol levels (<12 mcg/dl, recommend follow up) »» IGF — 1 Insulin–like Growth Factor
»» TSH — Thyroid Stimulating Hormone »» FT4 — Free Thyroxine
»» LH — Luteinizing Hormone »» Testosterone (males only)
»» FSH — Follicle Stimulating Hormone »» Estradiol (females only)

* Local and lab specific reference ranges should be utilized to determine deficiencies
Post-injury screening for NED should only be used as one component of a thorough clinical evaluation by a qualified
provider. It should not be used in isolation for clinical decision making.
Referral to Endocrinology is advised if lab results suggest NED or if strong clinical suspicion of NED remains despite
negative screening tests and other potential causes for symptoms have been excluded.

Edited by Nemo888, 27 October 2014 - 11:28 AM.

[medicineman]

finasteride lowers dht. you have to make a choice between your hair and your general well-being, including cognition.

[Lifemap]

finasteride lowers dht. you have to make a choice between your hair and your general well-being, including cognition.

I'll go for general well being. Looking at finesteride had no idea it was this bad. Mimics many of they syptoms of benzo PAWS. Is this due to fact that finesteride works on GABAa as well? Any other thoughts on what to do quitting this med sounds like a down hill spiral!! Ugh what have i got myself into !! 

http://www.propeciahelp.com/overview

[medicineman]

lowering levels of the most biologically active androgen is bound to have far reaching repercussions.

theoretically, tamoxifen may hasten hormonal recovery post finasteride. there are anecdotal reports online.

[OpaqueMind]

what are your thoughts on CES ? I assume there are a lot of different products out there for neurofeedback. Shoould i start with a local place? Actually I recall a friend having something to that extent.  Goggles that displayed light patterns and headphones playing different tones. Would this be similar to ends your speaking on ?

 

CES is okay, and what you're referring to in your second to last sentence (mind machines) are interesting too, but they are not related to neurofeedback and do not achieve that same ends. For NFB I recommend going your own route and buying the gear yourself... to provide some perspective on the relative costs; you can get a high quality EEG setup for about $1000, which you can use indefinitely and flexibly, while a course of say 20 or 30 sessions with a professional neurofeedback provider will easily cost twice that. With the advent of universally applicable protocols like TAGsync and Infra-flow frequency training, the importance of having an experienced professional guide the training scheme is much diminished, and there is a pretty minimal learning curve involved in getting used to using the designs. Also, 20, 30 even a 100 sessions is not enough to reap the full potentiality which neurofeedback offers... I've been doing this stuff for almost a year and still I am developing mentally as a direct result of training on a weekly, sometimes daily basis. Given that you are coming from a place of dysfunctionality, the need for extensive sessions is even more pertinent.

 

Pocket Neurobics have some excellent products which several of us on here can vouch for. Depending on your budget and intentions there are two main options within the PN selection; U-Wiz - runs up to 2-channel EEG, is DC coupling enabled so compatible with ILF training and costs $595. Or the Q-Wiz - runs up to 4-channel EEG, is DC coupled and has HEG, HRV and other potential modalities; costs $995. As well as either of these you will need a set of electrodes and one of the Neurofeedback software setups. If you have the money to spare I would go with the Q-wiz, because then when you've maximized all you can do with 2 channels, you can then go on to 4-channel training, and also HEG training for prefrontal activation and increasing cortical bloodflow response and metabolism, though you'd need to buy a HEG headband to be abel to run that. It's not cheap, but it is long-lasting and the investment gives an absolutely massive return. Like I said I've been using it for over a year and I'm still making gains. If I was myself a year ago and saw myself now, saw my thoughts, my emotional state, my sociability, my engagement, I would almost not believe I was the same person. As a potential route to total resolution of our painful mental symptoms, as well as going well beyond the abilities generally considered normal, the price is I think very reasonable.

 

Here's the PN site which sells the hardware - http://pocketneurobics.com/

and here's the TAGsync site - http://www.tagsynchr...com/tagsync.htm

[Lifemap]

lowering levels of the most biologically active androgen is bound to have far reaching repercussions.

theoretically, tamoxifen may hasten hormonal recovery post finasteride. there are anecdotal reports online.

so ur saying that tamoxifen  being an    an antagonist of the estrogen receptor speed up healing /in theroy higher leels of estrogen caused by post finesteride syndrome??

[medicineman]

lowering levels of the most biologically active androgen is bound to have far reaching repercussions.

theoretically, tamoxifen may hasten hormonal recovery post finasteride. there are anecdotal reports online.

so ur saying that tamoxifen being an an antagonist of the estrogen receptor speed up healing /in theroy higher leels of estrogen caused by post finesteride syndrome??

tamoxifen blocks the normally suppressive action of estrogen on lutenizing hormone. it will theoretically kick start your natural androgen production via LH, at the same time, prevent excess oestrogen (which is there as a result of knocking out alpha reductase, hence shunting test to aromatase) from exerting negative effects.

try what bodybuilders do on postcycle. 20mg OD for 4 weeks.

[Lifemap]

Are there any other things i could take as well .  My dr said my testosterone was bodering on low for my age and prescribed a subligual rhea/test med I haven't started yet. Should I avoid messing with this until after stopping finesterde for a while. Also that my estrogen was a little high and to start taking a supplement to help with this.  Any other  blood test i should do to see how finesteride might  have effected me . Should I wean off finesteride?

[Keizo]

Other things that could help with testosterone/estrogen:

Boron (very cheap)

Resveratrol (tamoxifen etc ought to be more effective though I wonder about the safety of that long-term)

Lots of fat including saturated, from diet

 

Anyway, I definitely noticed a removal of fatigue from resveratrol. I take about 500mg every day. Last I checked (pre-resveratrol) I have 16nmol/L or 460ng/dl s-test levels (I assume they are higher now), a bit low for my age (23) it is in the middle of the lower half of the reference range

I also got acne like back when I was 19, and joint aches, for a few weeks (may be a sign of high T and low E respectively)

 

Regarding benzo paws (and general brain health perhaps) I think Noopept can have some effect. For the desperate I would look at Cerebrolysin (helped me a lot anyway, most effective thing I've ever used).

 

Edited by Keizo, 01 November 2014 - 06:56 AM.

[Lifemap]

Resveratrol, isn't this the ingredient in red wine? What exactly might this help with ?

 

So 1st i should give  Boron a go  to help increase Testosterone? What are your thoughts on DHEA? ( I did do a tesoterone test while taking finesterice and pre finesteride, they were both really close, so where labs are concerned i don't know how much its effecting me .

 

 

Post TBI, PAWS form benzo, opiate

I guess my biggest goals, after this TBI is to get as much of my old self back especially now that anxiety is diminishing on its own accord . To start feeling, my emotions again and not just this depressive numbness ! Meaning the emotionally i do  feel are  extremely disconnected and blunted.

Are there things i could use to help get this back, or some type of motivation ? ( I don't necessarily need euphoria, just not this dysphasia i'm experiencing!)

 

2nd are to help with memory and focus back. I know part of this is going to be training my brain, just wondering what i could use in conjunction with mental exercise to heal quicker. 

 

As for the meds you were taling about is  Noopept one of the better ones out there.  What effect does it produce? Are you speaking on terms of (Noopept works to increase your memory and learning capacity ?) 

So how does Noopept compare to  Cerebrolysin? How long do i need to take either of these in order to see results? What type of results would i be experiencing are they noticeable?  

 

Thank you once again for your help, i have such trouble asking for help right now when i need it the most!

 

Almost forgot, went to see psychiatrist  and his recommendation was to start straterra, I am hesitant to begin psych  meds simply because of my bad experiences in about 6 years ago (made me feel a increase in depression and bad side effects going form one to the other)

Any thoughts as to experiences with this med, insight on how it might work with my situation, or is it something  i should avoid or just try in order to see how it might effect me sense every one responds differently to meds?

 

 

Edited by Lifemap, 16 November 2014 - 12:29 AM.

[Keizo]

Resveratrol can work similarly to tamoxifene and so on. So it should get natural testosterone production increased, at least for some people and in certain dosages. It doesn't seem clear what doses would achieve this in humans. 
http://www.longecity...teroneestrogen/ http://www.longecity...e-testosterone/ http://www.longecity...on-your-libido/ http://www.longecity...rom-resveratol/ http://www.longecity...teroneestrogen/ http://www.longecity...e-testosterone/ http://www.longecity...on-your-libido/ http://www.longecity...rom-resveratol/
I certainly experienced a removal of fatigue, and other things (acne, transient joint/tendon ache) suggesting it in fact does the same thing as the actual medications (SERMs and/or aromatase inhibitors).
I also have much less problem with eye-contact in my interactions, specifically after using resveratrol for a while.
 
Boron seems to be good to supplement besides possible hormonal effects
http://peaktestoster...stosterone.aspx
 
 
 
http://www.longecity...es-compilation/
 
I think if your problem is much related to benzo paws, then from my personal experience and the general calming effect people report, Cerebrolysin should help a lot. I can't remember if anyone else with that particular problem had used it. 
Benzodiazepines down-regulate GABA(A) receptors, or in some other way affect that or related systems badly, thus withdrawal symptoms. Meanwhile Cerebrolysin might just do the opposite, and meanwhile some effect on the GABA(B) receptors..
These types of effects conform to experiences, GABA being the inhibitory neurotransmitter calming things down... I believe it relaxed my muscles as well. It seems these effects are long-lasting, along with other pro-cognitive effects.
I don't exactly know what it is used for in Russia and parts of Europe (where it is prescribed), but probably a lot of things besides Alzheimer's.
 
90. Xiong, H., Baskys, A., Wojtowicz, J.M. Brain-derived peptides
inhibit synaptic transmission via presynaptic GABAB receptors in CA1 area of rat hippocampal slices.Brain Res 1996,
737(1-2): 188-94.
91. Zemkova, H., Kruek, J., Vyskocil, F. Potentiation of GABAA
receptor in cultured mouse hippocampal cells by brainderived peptide mixture cerebrolysin. Physiol Res 1995,
44(3): 151-5.
92. Froestl, W. Novel GABA(B) receptor positive modulators: a
patent survey.Expert Opin Ther Pat 2010, 20(8): 1007-17.
93. Fiorentino, H., Kuczewski, N., Diabira, D., Ferrand, N.,
Pangalos, M.N., Porcher, C., Gaiarsa, J.L. GABA(B) receptor
activation triggers BDNF release and promotes the maturation of GABAergic synapses. J Neurosci 2009, 29(37):
11650-61. 
TBI: http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/23656173  http://link.springer...-211-32318-X_13
 
Noopept might have some mild anti-anxiety effect, some action with regards to these neurothropic factors such as BDNF. I'm not sure what it's supposed main mode of action is. Shouldn't be bad for your brain, I wouldn't think. 
 
I can relate to some of your descriptions. Last year I was very tense, not necessarily extremely anxious, but had very big problems with short-term memory and I guess thinking in general. Very blunted emotional state, very tired and not interested in much anything. I quit benzodiazepines in March-April 2013.
I'm sure Strattera might help with that reduced flight or fight response, get you going a bit. I have used it (for adhd diagnose), I didn't like it, but it wasn't terrible.

Edited by Keizo, 17 November 2014 - 11:58 AM.

[Keizo]

Personally I got some good benefits from Cerebrolysin immediately. My brain fog and migraine-like symptoms cleared up, I felt less tense, more functional in general. 5ml, then used that for another 4 days. Some permanent effects even after that, Though later 1 month usage resulted in greater results. Right now after maybe 200ml used in total, I feel pretty good, a large part of this I would attribute to Cerebrolysin.

It is probably good to use 5ml or more for 3-4 weeks (every other day or 5 days week-end off, etc) to see significant change. A bit expensive, and you have to get it from Europe (I also heard someone got IV treatment in Mexico), check the main thread for where people buy it. I used nootropic.eu

[Heisenburger]

finasteride lowers dht. you have to make a choice between your hair and your general well-being, including cognition.

 

 

Screw the hair. Get yourself one of these bad boys and rock the Heisenberg. Freedom from hair is the best thing that’s happened to me this decade, and I never have to pay for a haircut ever again. I used to think that after puberty, DHT was a useless artifact that just makes us go bald and gives us prostate cancer. About a year ago I found out that this is way wrong. Too tired to Google right now, but low DHT levels can cause depression in men.

[Lifemap]

TBIUgh life has been pretty frusteradting, yet anxiety is getting better on its own, yet the depression primarlly lack of emotions, or blunted emotion, extreem lack of drive making very difficult to stay diciplined when results from hard work are with out emotional reward. Or being seditariy and not progressing don't make me feel any worse. Any thoughts on this and what I could try to help. ( I assume the majority of what i'm experiencing is from TBI, the PAWS are playing a role just not as big )

 Starting Boron, Reversotol soon as they arrive.  As for Cerebrolysin, i'm still a little weary of poss side effects, i need to do more research but sounds like works well but once stopped people feel just as poor as before starting it. 

 

FINESTERIDE 

Does any one have experience with pregnenoloe? My understanding that this is one of the main neurosteroids that causes the majority of  problems while on finesteride. Also from my reading taking a aromatase inhibitor can help.

 

So my theroy is to cut dose of finesteride while taking a  aromastase inhibitor such as Grape Seed Extract, Pomegranate Extract, Green Tea Extract and Arimidex (any inputs on which might be best?) and possibly try taking pregnelone. Also thinking a supplement DIM since my blood work came back with high estrogen. Are there better meds, supp to take if DIM doesn't work, (or in past caused slight decreased my labito, could this mean its not doing it job at blocking tesosternone from converting to estrogen? )

 

Lastly read that these can help while on or post finesteride.  acetyl-l-carnitine, minocycline, l-theanine, taurine, curcumin, green tea (EGCG), CoQ10, nicotinamide/niacinamide, creatine, ketogenic diets.  

I'm was prescibed minocycline  havent started it yet out of lact of research and fear it could cause problems. I used l-theanine and acetyl-l carnitine, and CoQ10 which had no adverseresults.

[Keizo]

You can get libido decrease from too low estrogen also.