47 replies to this topic

[StevesPetRat]

Interesting new study on one of my interests (metabolic endotoxemia) that confirms benefits of both very low fat (8.1% E) and very high fat (73.9% E) diets on plasma endotoxins and inflammatory markers compared to something approximating the Western diet (48% E).

Called it!
Sorry for getting astray on the original topic, but lactoferrin binds and to some extent inactivates LPS.
Now back to your originally scheduled programming, where cause and effect are confused and we debate whether the Third World is part of the modern world.

[Chupo]

 

Interesting new study on one of my interests (metabolic endotoxemia) that confirms benefits of both very low fat (8.1% E) and very high fat (73.9% E) diets on plasma endotoxins and inflammatory markers compared to something approximating the Western diet (48% E).

Called it!
Sorry for getting astray on the original topic, but lactoferrin binds and to some extent inactivates LPS.
Now back to your originally scheduled programming, where cause and effect are confused and we debate whether the Third World is part of the modern world.

 

 

Wouldn't lactoferrin be present in the non-fatty portions of milk rather than the milk  fat?  The study suggests the mHFD mice had leakier guts.

[StevesPetRat]

Wouldn't lactoferrin be present in the non-fatty portions of milk rather than the milk  fat?  The study suggests the mHFD mice had leakier guts.

Indeed. Lactoferrin is a glycoprotein. I am not 100% up on the chemistry, but it should be more soluble in water than fat.

[Mouser]

Interesting new study on one of my interests (metabolic endotoxemia) that confirms benefits of both very low fat (8.1% E) and very high fat (73.9% E) diets on plasma endotoxins and inflammatory markers compared to something approximating the Western diet (48% E)....

 

At the same time I began reading this thread to help plan for a DIY soylent/meal-replacement-shake recipe, I also happened to look deeper into my ApoE 4 status. It's good I did since, as many of you know, ApoE 3|4 and especially 4|4 carriers seem to be much healthier on low cholesterol and low saturated fat diets, if not vegan-like diets entirely.

 

In reply to the ideal macronutrient ratio question I suppose the answer has to be - it actually depends a great deal on an individual's ApoE polymorphism (and potentially, other factors no one knows about.) With ~30% prevalence of 3\4 and 4\4 ApoE in the general population (can't find a source for this), that's a significant number of people for whom a hypothetical ideal ratio, as discovered in some hypothetical study where a non-representative population was used, has frightening odds to be nearly the opposite of what someone should be eating. If the most significant ApoE findings are to be believed, that is.

 

On to the rats in the study you cited, Darryl... Do you know if there are corresponding ApoE variations (to variations found in humans) in rats used in these studies? I'm wondering if the same individual rats were found to do better on both very high fat and very low fat, or was is it just the group in aggregate doing better, indicating the possibility of subgroups within the studied rats with certain groups doing better on one diet and not the other, and another group the opposite. Put another way:

 

If I'm a rat can I eat either very high fat or very low fat and come out okay, or does my response depend on which type of rat I am?

 

Being Apoe4 heterogenous myself, it would be great to find evidence that there's a chance, at least when it comes to gut leakiness, both very high or low fat diets were okay in some way. Eating only the type of low fat diet indicated in most studies for ApoE 4 for the rest of my life doesn't sound like fun.

Edited by Mouser, 06 February 2015 - 12:00 AM.

[gamesguru]

http://nutritionfact...ty-to-diabetes/

[timar]

We don't eat macronutrients, we eat food!

 

Unless one feels inclined to follow an extreme and rather speculative dietary approach (which I respect but don't think will ever show suitable for the majority of people to follow), I think that the question of an ideal, abstract macronutrient ratio is more likely to distract from eating a healthy diet than contributing to it.

 

Take all the natural complexity of the diet - or rather the multitude of diets -, add to that the individual genetic complexity and it seems quite foolish to suggest that there would be an ideal, "one size fits all" ratio for every individual fitting every possible dietary pattern. Let me give you my definition of the "ideal macronutrient ratio", though: it is whatever ratio enables you to ingest a large variety and quantity of secondary plant metabolites within their natural whole food matrix, including those found in whole grains and legumes. Hence, it provides a significant amount of carbohydrates, excluding the more extreme end of low-carb approaches. Those metabolites include fat-soluble substances such as plant sterols and tocols found in nuts and seeds (avoding an excess of omega-6 and saturated fat), excluding the more extreme end of low-fat approaches. It also includes a carefully chosen selection of nutrient-dense animal foods to supplement that plant based diet with some important compounds like EPA/DHA, zinc, vitamin B12, retinol, taurine, choline/cartintine and bioactive peptides (avoiding an excess of cholesterol and saturated fat), again excluding the more extreme end of low-fat approaches as well as strict veganism (unless one goes into the effort of substituting them with an even more carefully chosen selection of supplements). Last but not least, one should moderate his or her caloric intake. To many calories constituted by an "ideal macronutrient ratio" are still too many calories!

 

Sounds familiar? We know of two different, equally successful implementations of this very definition: the traditional Mediterranean and Asian diets.

Edited by timar, 15 February 2015 - 11:46 AM.

[Skunkdaddy]

All this alarmist, pedantic talk revolving around plant-based protein (that's probably denatured in the 40-45 minute cooking process) makes me want to throttle the nearest pet owner that feeds their dog dried corn, byproduct sub-dogshit.

I'm surprised someone hasn't interjected at least somewhat the WestonAPrice findings which I scarcely remember since I've been highflying once I became aware of its wonderful essence. No one brings up fermented, sprouted, or predigested stuff like kefir or papainor bromelain-tenderized meat goodness. I fully expect a backlash but at least rid yourself of these phobias. Get in tune with your prior activity to meal time and intuit energy source/quality or blood sugar so to speak before plopping down in front of some grub. Don't rack yourself on a feeding schedule because you're too intelligent for folly and inspiration.

Michael

[timar]

All this alarmist, pedantic talk revolving around plant-based protein (that's probably denatured in the 40-45 minute cooking process) makes me want to throttle the nearest pet owner that feeds their dog dried corn, byproduct sub-dogshit.

 

A friend of mine, who is a vegan, has a 12-year old retriever. It's one of the healthiest dogs I have ever seen for that age. She has a thick and shiny fur and runs vigorously for miles. I was amazed when he told me that he feeds the dog eats vegan diet since years.

 

Btw. "denatured" protein (due to cooking or fermentation) generally has a better bioavailability than "raw" protein.

Edited by timar, 09 March 2015 - 09:33 AM.

[Skunkdaddy]

Well, a fresh vegan human-grade diet probably works wonders for a wellbred dog.  I was approaching an apoplectic fit for a moment.  So check out WestonAPrice.org; it's not your standard life extension fare but it just might prolong your life, especially into a later set of years as someone who feels like a human once born long ago.

 

Yeah, I sprout all of the nuts/seed kernels that I ingest.. I want to find a better brand of bread than Ezekiel's low-sodium mix.  I used to order from here - http://www.localharv...dried-goods.jsp(check out their sprouted oatmeal and spelt.. quite good to chow down) - but the shipping and bulk got to be expensive.  Plus, it's depressing to invest all that time in perfectly cooked grains for just yourself.  

 

I need more foodies in my area.  I've lost touch with a lot of my friends since my health crisis and now that we're ~30, a lot of them are onto baby food and sleepless nights, ha.  Some of them will talk about pho but I have no budget to dine out on Vietnamese cuisine.  

 

Peace

Mike

[Mouser]

...since I've been highflying once I became aware of its wonderful essence. No one brings up fermented, sprouted, or predigested stuff like kefir or papainor bromelain-tenderized meat goodness. I fully expect a backlash but at least rid yourself of these phobias. Get in tune with your prior activity to meal time and intuit energy source/quality or blood sugar so to speak before plopping down in front of some grub. Don't rack yourself on a feeding schedule because you're too intelligent for folly and inspiration.

Michael

 

You may be expecting a backlash, but the only way I can reply is by asking if you're alright. What you wrote is seriously bizarre and undecipherable; I'm hoping just super-stylized and i'm not getting it?

 

EDIT: Ah! I just saw your subsequent follow up post. Now you're making sense to me.

Edited by Mouser, 10 March 2015 - 02:38 PM.

[Chupo]

 

All this alarmist, pedantic talk revolving around plant-based protein (that's probably denatured in the 40-45 minute cooking process) makes me want to throttle the nearest pet owner that feeds their dog dried corn, byproduct sub-dogshit.

 

A friend of mine, who is a vegan, has a 12-year old retriever. It's one of the healthiest dogs I have ever seen for that age. She has a thick and shiny fur and runs vigorously for miles. I was amazed when he told me that he feeds the dog eats vegan diet since years.

 

Btw. "denatured" protein (due to cooking or fermentation) generally has a better bioavailability than "raw" protein.

 

 

What is he feeding the dog? I once had a neighbor who had an avocado tree. Every time an avocado would drop, his dog would eat it. He had the shiniest, silkiest coat I'd ever seen on a dog. The dog's staple was kibble though.

 

[sensei]

 

 

What is he feeding the dog? I once had a neighbor who had an avocado tree. Every time an avocado would drop, his dog would eat it. He had the shiniest, silkiest coat I'd ever seen on a dog. The dog's staple was kibble though.

 

 

Avocado is almost what you want in a superfood. ( just a little low on protein and carbs)

 

Calorically it is 96% very good fats - 2% protein and 2% carbs -- it also has 13 grams of dietary fiber per avocado.

 

That being said, I recently had a run-in with a VLC/XLC diet that resulted in deep ketosis  (at the deepest point you could smell my urine from outside the bathroom if the door was open), glycogen depletion, hypoglycemia, and basically feeling like crap.

 

To fix the blood sugar metabolism issue, my physician has me on a 50-60% carb, 20-25% Protein, 20% fat diet.

 

As soon as the blood sugar metabolism is regulated, I am to switch to a 30-30-40 Protein - Fat - Carb diet.

 

Extreme activity while on a ketogenic or VLC/XLC (very low/extremely low carb) is not advisable, unless you are long term acclimated.

 

Personally, I doubt I will ever again attempt to use ketosis to cut body fat, unless I embark on a long, slow, gradual reduction in dietary carbs and increase in fats-- my glucose metabolism does not like it.

[Chupo]

 

Avocado is almost what you want in a superfood. ( just a little low on protein and carbs)

 

Calorically it is 96% very good fats - 2% protein and 2% carbs -- it also has 13 grams of dietary fiber per avocado.

 

 

Avocados are awesome fruits with a nutritional profile unlike most other fruits but I'm curious as to where you got the 2% protein.  From what I can see, Florida avocados are a more nutrient dense than California avocados. They are 6% protein while California avos are 4% for example, and with more micronutrients.  FL avos as a mono-meal day satisfy 80% of my nutrient targets.

 

 

 

By the way, the USDA database has CA and FL avocados reversed on their site. Kudos to Cronometer for listing them correctly even though they use that very database.

 

 

To fix the blood sugar metabolism issue, my physician has me on a 50-60% carb, 20-25% Protein, 20% fat diet.

 

If you can, or are allowed to, I'd lower your fat% as low as you possibly can to fix your glucose metabolism. When I did the McDougall diet, which was less than 10% fat the way I did it, my fasting BG was in the 70s on average with some readings in the 60s. The problem for me was that my postprandial excursions were over 180 and even in the 200s sometimes - even after two months of adaptation. Also, my triglycerides skyrocketed. People prone to diabetes have problems eating fats and carbs together unless they are calorie restricted.

 

 

 I recently had a run-in with a VLC/XLC diet that resulted in deep ketosis  (at the deepest point you could smell my urine from outside the bathroom if the door was open), glycogen depletion, hypoglycemia, and basically feeling like crap.

 

Some people just don't do well on high fat ketogenic diets. I've never had the smelly urine, BO, or bad breath that some people report. A little metallic taste in my mouth the first day or two after entering ketosis is all. Something may be wrong with your ketone metabolism and it may be genetic. For instance, I have an SNP that suggests I have a beta ketothiolase deficiency, that would prevent me from metabolizing ketones and result in hypoglycemia and ketoacidosis.

 

 

 

 

I have none of the signs of that disease whatsoever. 1.8% of people have this SNP but only 50 - 60 people have been diagnosed with the disease world-wide. Something more is going on here.  Forgive my digression but there is a point. There may be, lurking in your genes, an SNP that really keeps you from metabolizing fats and/or ketones effectively. It may even be this very one in combination with another SNP.

 

 

As soon as the blood sugar metabolism is regulated, I am to switch to a 30-30-40 Protein - Fat - Carb diet.

 

I can tell you right now that a 30/30/40 pfc diet would be the beginning of the end for me, which is why I cringe (but keep my mouth shut) when people suggest such a "balanced" diet.  You might very well do just fine on it though, which is another reason I try to keep my mouth shut about that.

 

 

 

Personally, I doubt I will ever again attempt to use ketosis to cut body fat, unless I embark on a long, slow, gradual reduction in dietary carbs and increase in fats-- my glucose metabolism does not like it.

 

Some low-carb doctors recommend a slow transition. It apparently works for some who don't seem to be able to keto adapt. For me, it'd be more difficult. But you aren't me. You're Sensei and your own self-experimentation is the best thing you can do for yourself! I wish you luck and keep us posted!

 

[sensei]

 

 

 

To fix the blood sugar metabolism issue, my physician has me on a 50-60% carb, 20-25% Protein, 20% fat diet.

 

If you can, or are allowed to, I'd lower your fat% as low as you possibly can to fix your glucose metabolism. When I did the McDougall diet, which was less than 10% fat the way I did it, my fasting BG was in the 70s on average with some readings in the 60s. The problem for me was that my postprandial excursions were over 180 and even in the 200s sometimes - even after two months of adaptation. Also, my triglycerides skyrocketed. People prone to diabetes have problems eating fats and carbs together unless they are calorie restricted.

 

 

My issue is low blood sugar the day after the ketosis -- I drank 40 grams of sugar in a sports drink and it went to  155 -- and 1 hour later it was 74 and dropping.

 

I had bounced myself out by carb loading and drinking about 120 oz of water until no stinky pee -- per my doctor.

 

Monday it was better, and today it's better still

[JohnD60]

I think you should vary your macro nutrient ratio.

But I am usually 10% carbs, 70% fat, 20% protein

[niner]

I think you should vary your macro nutrient ratio.

I can see why you'd want to vary the foods that make up your diet, so that you'd be less likely to miss any particular micronutrient. Varying foods would also make it less likely that you would OD on a toxin that was found in a particular food item. But I wouldn't vary my macronutrient ratio without a good reason. One good reason would be protein cycling, where you have periodic protein deficits in order to jack up autophagy. Are there others?

[JohnD60]

 

I think you should vary your macro nutrient ratio.

I can see why you'd want to vary the foods that make up your diet, so that you'd be less likely to miss any particular micronutrient. Varying foods would also make it less likely that you would OD on a toxin that was found in a particular food item. But I wouldn't vary my macronutrient ratio without a good reason. One good reason would be protein cycling, where you have periodic protein deficits in order to jack up autophagy. Are there others?

 

 

Since I am low carb, I have a bias, maybe this recommendation can not be extrapolated to those with different ratios, but maybe it can, continually challenging and stimulating the body has its own hard to define benefits.  In the low carb/keto community there are examples of people that experience thyroid problems while continually low carb, and they need to "refeed" (a moderate to high carb day) once every week or two to mitigate this problem. It is not hard for me to imagine that there are other problems that crop up if you are continually low carb, and that periodic high carb days are beneficial. But I strongly believe that being low carb the vast majority of days is greatly beneficial due to lowered insulin/metabolic signaling, hence the opinion that one should vary their macro ratios http://bjjcaveman.co...hyroid-hormone/

[timar]

It is not hard for me to imagine that there are other problems that crop up if you are continually low carb...

 

You bet! There's a whole host of problems connected to eating a (very) low carb diet in the long term. Most implementations of low carb diets provide excessive protein (>20%), particularly animal protein rich in methionine and BCAA, causing a permanently elevated renal acid load, fueling the insulin response (protein is much more insulinogenic than carbs), mTOR signaling and IGF-1 and a low arginine/lysine-ratio (excessive lysine possibly causes a thickening of of the basal lamina in the long term, thereby producing high blood pressure. Nuts, grains ands legumes, on the other hand, have a high arginine/lysine ratio) as well as excessive C12-18:0 saturated fatty acids (>10%), increasing LDL cholesterol, inflammation and insulin resistance. Of course it is possible to follow a low carb diet low in saturated fat and moderate in protein but I think it is much more difficult and most low carbers don't - particularly as there are many popular low carb bloggers, journalists and diet gurus promoting fatty cuts of meat as a health food. But even if you do it right - with lots of avocado, nuts and olive oil - there's still the issue of the lack of variety from following any overly restrictive diet. Particularly a ketogenic diet seems insane to me (for a healthy person to follow) as in order to permanently maintain a state of metabolism that has evolved as an emergency mode and about which we have next to no epidemiological evidence for its long-term effects, you exclude most of the healthiest foods known to man from your diet, including fruits, nuts and even most vegetables.

Edited by timar, 26 March 2015 - 09:30 AM.