7 replies to this topic

[mindpatch]

So, I've been dealing with chronic anxiety, depression, anhedonia and brain fog for about two and a half years.  I think it might have had to do with a heavy dose of cortisol that caused a cascade of neurotoxicity.  It's a long story that I'm still trying to piece together and understand. 

 

Fast forward.  This last month I started dosing Memantine along with NSI-189 and 9 methyl beta carboline. I think, actually, this has really helped me turn a corner...at least cognitively.  I felt like the anxiety was subsiding and I was getting my intellect back.  I was able to sit down and write a lengthy blog article...something I had really been unable to do if I wasn't all there and not able to organize my thoughts. This was Tuesday.  Wednesday I had an emotional trigger that brought on some pretty bad depression and anxiety. That night I had an IPA at my local beer joint, and took a gram of Phenibut.  The next day I was really out of it.  Low mood, no energy...that spaced out dissociative feeling.  I continued to dose the Mematine and the other two, and felt a little better Friday. Still suffered the anxiety from that emotional trigger, but was mentally there somewhat.  

 

Had a couple of drinks that night,and had a lot of trouble sleeping.  Woke up pretty hungover from just those couple of drinks and felt really out of it.  Dosed 500 mg Phenibut that afternoon.  I don't really think it helped all that much with the anxiety.  In fact, I've never gotten that euphoric feeling that some people report here.  So, I still felt out of it that afternoon and evening, and today, I just feel totally brain fogged....or really in my head and dissociated from the world basically.  I used to feel this way when I was younger the day after smoking weed, and especially the next couple of days after doing acid for the first and only time about fifteen years ago. 

 

I don't know if it's a rebound from the Phenibut or not, but even in the absence of chronic usage that causes tolerance, I don't think it agrees with me, or so it might seem.  I rarely use it. 

 

I'm still trying to figure out my individual neurochemistry, but something is definitely different than earlier in the week. Does Phenibut cause short term issues such as this, or is it good to cycle off Memantine.  Is it a little risky to play around with Glutamate/GABA balance with this stuff?  I read this thread with some interest, as I think the symptoms and possible etiology are similar to my situation. 

[Galaxyshock]

NMDA-antagonism with Memantine -> NMDA-rebound -> release of kynurenic acid (endogenous dissociative, antagonizes NMDA along with kainate and AMPA)

Just something that came to my mind. Or alternatively it could be dynorphin through kappa-opioid receptors, do you also feel dysphoric?

 

I'd take Theanine to safely agonize glutamate and increase GABA, and/or Ginseng to antagonize kappa.

[FunkOdyssey]

I cannot believe:

 

1) phenibut is still legally sold

2) people are still buying it after all the horror stories

 

Best thing you can do with that bottle of phenibut is throw it in the garbage.

[mindpatch]

NMDA-antagonism with Memantine -> NMDA-rebound -> release of kynurenic acid (endogenous dissociative, antagonizes NMDA along with kainate and AMPA)

Just something that came to my mind. Or alternatively it could be dynorphin through kappa-opioid receptors, do you also feel dysphoric?

 

I'd take Theanine to safely agonize glutamate and increase GABA, and/or Ginseng to antagonize kappa.

I'm currently taking 10 mg of the Memantine qd.  I read that the half life if 80 hours. What I think you're saying in that first statement is the exogenous antagonist causes a subsequent rebound of NMDA activity through some sort of endogenous agonism, causing  yet another reaction by way of endogenous antagonism in the form of kynurenic acid.  I wonder if the Memantine itself could cause that dissociative feeling if it is building up in my system through daily dosing.   It seemed somehow connected to the Phen usage, though.  

 

As for the KOR receptors, I'm not sure that Memantine is a KOR agonist.  Ketamine, yes.  

 

As for dysphoria, there is generalized anxiety that causes avoidance behavior.  However, when I felt on it earlier in the week, there was this more stimulating and productive sense of dysphoria - as if I wasn't satisfied with life and felt this impulse to do something to change it. 

 

Take 100 mg Theanine in my coffee. 

[mindpatch]

I cannot believe:

 

1) phenibut is still legally sold

2) people are still buying it after all the horror stories

 

Best thing you can do with that bottle of phenibut is throw it in the garbage.

I was thinking the same thing.  I just have it around for occasional use when I'm feeling especially anxious, but it really doesn't even seem to help.  I remember low dose Lorazepam working a lot better. 

[relbatnrut]

Phenibut is great for me once per week. Been taking it for years and I've never had a problem with side effects or controlling use (not even in the least). I can't believe people on this board would actually want it to be regulated; that seems to go against everything we stand for.

[Galaxyshock]

 

NMDA-antagonism with Memantine -> NMDA-rebound -> release of kynurenic acid (endogenous dissociative, antagonizes NMDA along with kainate and AMPA)

Just something that came to my mind. Or alternatively it could be dynorphin through kappa-opioid receptors, do you also feel dysphoric?

 

I'd take Theanine to safely agonize glutamate and increase GABA, and/or Ginseng to antagonize kappa.

I'm currently taking 10 mg of the Memantine qd.  I read that the half life if 80 hours. What I think you're saying in that first statement is the exogenous antagonist causes a subsequent rebound of NMDA activity through some sort of endogenous agonism, causing  yet another reaction by way of endogenous antagonism in the form of kynurenic acid.  I wonder if the Memantine itself could cause that dissociative feeling if it is building up in my system through daily dosing.   It seemed somehow connected to the Phen usage, though.  

 

As for the KOR receptors, I'm not sure that Memantine is a KOR agonist.  Ketamine, yes.  

 

As for dysphoria, there is generalized anxiety that causes avoidance behavior.  However, when I felt on it earlier in the week, there was this more stimulating and productive sense of dysphoria - as if I wasn't satisfied with life and felt this impulse to do something to change it. 

 

Take 100 mg Theanine in my coffee. 

 

 

Yes basically I see it so that for every action there's a reaction, and then another reaction to that and so on. if you block NMDA with a drug, then the brain may compensate for example with NMDA-receptor upregulation, increase in glutamate release/synthesis or other ways. Then in response to the excess glutamate from the rebound effect, anti-glutamatergics such as kynurenic acid are released. I mentioned KOR because it can also induce dissociative feeling by blocking glutamate through nitric oxide release IIRC. Then nitric oxide increases dopamine which can cause that stimulating and productive sense, urge for action, you mentioned. It's logical but very complex.

[AlexCanada]

 

NMDA-antagonism with Memantine -> NMDA-rebound -> release of kynurenic acid (endogenous dissociative, antagonizes NMDA along with kainate and AMPA)

Just something that came to my mind. Or alternatively it could be dynorphin through kappa-opioid receptors, do you also feel dysphoric?

 

I'd take Theanine to safely agonize glutamate and increase GABA, and/or Ginseng to antagonize kappa.

I'm currently taking 10 mg of the Memantine qd.  I read that the half life if 80 hours. What I think you're saying in that first statement is the exogenous antagonist causes a subsequent rebound of NMDA activity through some sort of endogenous agonism, causing  yet another reaction by way of endogenous antagonism in the form of kynurenic acid.  I wonder if the Memantine itself could cause that dissociative feeling if it is building up in my system through daily dosing.   It seemed somehow connected to the Phen usage, though.  

 

As for the KOR receptors, I'm not sure that Memantine is a KOR agonist.  Ketamine, yes.  

 

As for dysphoria, there is generalized anxiety that causes avoidance behavior.  However, when I felt on it earlier in the week, there was this more stimulating and productive sense of dysphoria - as if I wasn't satisfied with life and felt this impulse to do something to change it. 

 

Take 100 mg Theanine in my coffee. 

 

 

Hey. What did you take to induce that productive dysphoria?

 

I get that from when I take Pantothene sublingual.  I become much more able to think, process information, and productivity skyrockets but very dysphoric type mood where existing is not exactly pleasant.  And it produces that impulse you speak of in terms of wanting to improve your life.  I became so productive towards self improvement on pantothene that I even managed to make and get through some very important doctor appointments that I been putting off. 

 

How might one regain this productivity but without the dysphoria?  Pantothene has effects on actelcholine + adrenals. Does make me feel wired.

 

 

 

The Memantine I may try again next week. It seems to sloww down my already slow mind a bit too much initially but some lifting of anhedonia hours later. It's interesting.

Edited by AlexCanada, 30 June 2015 - 06:44 PM.