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Chinese Herbs / Herbs thread

chinese herbs tcm herbs insomnia antiaging nutrition culinary

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#1 son of shen nong

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Posted 01 May 2015 - 11:54 PM


Hi;

I couldn't find a thread specific to Chinese Herbs & herbs in general, so I thought I'd start one.

I didn't exactly know where to start this thread either.  It could have been in nutrition or some other category as well as this one.  Please feel free to post any experience, good or bad, you may have w herbs, questions, or comments.

 

So, I'll start by listing all the Chinese Herbs, herbs, & supplements I'm currently using.  They relate to different protocols & treating different condtions.  Please remember, I don't mix everything all up @ once & drink it, if that's what u were thinking.

 

ling zhi, bai zhu, ren shen, tian men dong, shu di huang, feng mi, jiao gu lang, yuan zhi,
shi yu, he huan hua, he shou wu, sheng jiang, bo he, gan cao, huang qi, lian zi, wu wei zi

wood betony, passionflower, tulsi, valerian root, german chamomile, glutamine,  
cannabis sativa & cannabis indica (both as butter), cardamon seed, vanilla bean extract, coriander seed,
celastrus paniculatus, tumeric, cumin, cinnamon, chocolate, coffee, nettle root extract, beta sitosterol.

theanine, glycine, tmg, lecithin, piracetam, l-glutamine, ascorbic acid, proline, lysine.

 

Now, there's some overlap between the Chinese Herbs & the other herbs I've listed.  Bo He is mint.

Cardarmon seed is Bai Dou Cou.  Tumeric is Yu Jin.

 

Doing a number of formulae for different conditions/protocols.

Dosage, flavor, & timing are all important as far as the effectiveness of the formula.

 

Recent conditions treated: Insomnia, low energy, accelerated learning capability, immune system modulation


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#2 Bateau

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Posted 02 May 2015 - 01:50 AM

Just a bit of advice but you might get more people interested in the conversation if you mention the latin names of the herbs.

 

I'm familiar with Jiaogulan (Jiao Gu Lang) a.k.a. Gynostemma pentaphyllum

 

It's a awesome herb that has many ginseng like gypenosides that improve insulin sensitivity (through PTP1B inhibition and possibly AMPK activation), increases anti-oxidant profile (SOD), Immune function, and stress resistance. Oddly protective and regenerative to dopaminergic neurons.



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#3 son of shen nong

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Posted 02 May 2015 - 02:14 AM

Just a bit of advice but you might get more people interested in the conversation if you mention the latin names of the herbs.

 

I'm familiar with Jiaogulan (Jiao Gu Lang) a.k.a. Gynostemma pentaphyllum

 

It's a awesome herb that has many ginseng like gypenosides that improve insulin sensitivity (through PTP1B inhibition and possibly AMPK activation), increases anti-oxidant profile (SOD), Immune function, and stress resistance. Oddly protective and regenerative to dopaminergic neurons.

Thanks for the idea, boat.  I'll line them out in categories as well.

Because of all its saponins, gynostemma is sometimes called southern ginseng.

 

 Qi tonics bai zhu/white atractylodes, ren shen/ginseng, huang qi/astragalus, feng mi/honey,

gan cao/licorice, jiao gu lang/gynostemma

Yin tonics - Tian men dong/asparagus cochinchinensis , shi hu/dendrobium nobile

Blood tonic - Shu di huang/rehmannia glutinosa, he shou wu/polygonum multifolum

Calm shen/nourish heart - ling zhi/reishi mushroom, yuan zhi/polygala tenuifolia, he huan hua/albizzia flowers

Stabilize & Bind - wu wei zi/schizandra, lian zi/ lotus seeds

Warm, release exterior - Sheng Jiang/ginger

Cool, release exterior - Bo he/mint
 

 

 


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#4 VerdeGo

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Posted 02 May 2015 - 04:00 AM

As far as the non-Chinese herbs go: I have taken passionflower before, but its effects linger into the next day and leave me unmotivated. It's also a weak MAOI, and it may conflict with other supplements/herbs. Chamomile is definitely relaxing as a GABA-A agonist, and I actually drank some tonight. Glutamine for me has the same effects as a high amount of glutamic acid found in brown rice. It seems to be rather calming for the mind and its ability to shut off random thoughts (possibly from the conversion to GABA?). Theanine also appears to be a GABA precursor, and is similar in structure to glutamine. Perhaps theanine and glutamine can be alternated to give similar effects on the GABA system without building tolerance? Have you noticed any similarities in effects?

 

Can you please tell us more about your glycine and lysine experience? I guess glycine is wonderful for staying asleep all night and is a calming amino acid, and lysine is a serotonin antagonist that can elevate mood in some people. 

 

Getting back to the Chinese herbs, what would you say is the safest adaptogen in terms of side effects? Reishi caused stool discoloration, but I believe this has to do with flushing the liver (taurine, which can reverse liver disease in both fatty and alcoholic livers, produced the same temporary yellowish discoloration). Cordyceps can be too stimulating for me, possibly because of the thyroid. Is there any Chinese herbs/adaptogens that don't affect the thyroid, don't produce strange detox/allergic effects (sore throats, stool discoloration, rashes, etc.), and are highly beneficial for adapting to stress and the evolution of spirit? Once strange side effects in terms of the inner workings of the body (organs and body systems) appear, I automatically stop because I'm fearful I'm causing damage to my body, but many experts on these herbs suggest to keep using them, that this is a natural reaction and it's dispersing toxins from your body. Did you ever get these side effects, and did they go away in time?

 

A friend pointed out an interesting idea to me. He mentioned how each continent has its own adaptogenic plants. It's as if they were placed there by a greater intelligence to aid the people of that region. For instance, Maca in Peru, rhodiola in Russia/Scandinavia, cordyceps in Tibet, reishi in China, ginseng in Europe/America, ashwagandha in India, and so on. What is your opinion on foreigners using herbs native to a certain region of the world? And why do so many Westerners experience side effects from such herbs? I simply wish Western science could concretely link these effects to detoxification. Then I'd feel a lot more comfortable in taking these herbs.

 

I do find all this fascinating, as I'm beginning to get pulled closer to the study and use of such herbs. I guess I'm just looking for some reassurance. 



#5 son of shen nong

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Posted 02 May 2015 - 05:49 PM

As far as the non-Chinese herbs go: I have taken passionflower before, but its effects linger into the next day and leave me unmotivated. It's also a weak MAOI, and it may conflict with other supplements/herbs. Chamomile is definitely relaxing as a GABA-A agonist, and I actually drank some tonight. Glutamine for me has the same effects as a high amount of glutamic acid found in brown rice. It seems to be rather calming for the mind and its ability to shut off random thoughts (possibly from the conversion to GABA?). Theanine also appears to be a GABA precursor, and is similar in structure to glutamine. Perhaps theanine and glutamine can be alternated to give similar effects on the GABA system without building tolerance? Have you noticed any similarities in effects?

 

Can you please tell us more about your glycine and lysine experience? I guess glycine is wonderful for staying asleep all night and is a calming amino acid, and lysine is a serotonin antagonist that can elevate mood in some people. 

 

Getting back to the Chinese herbs, what would you say is the safest adaptogen in terms of side effects? Reishi caused stool discoloration, but I believe this has to do with flushing the liver (taurine, which can reverse liver disease in both fatty and alcoholic livers, produced the same temporary yellowish discoloration). Cordyceps can be too stimulating for me, possibly because of the thyroid. Is there any Chinese herbs/adaptogens that don't affect the thyroid, don't produce strange detox/allergic effects (sore throats, stool discoloration, rashes, etc.), and are highly beneficial for adapting to stress and the evolution of spirit? Once strange side effects in terms of the inner workings of the body (organs and body systems) appear, I automatically stop because I'm fearful I'm causing damage to my body, but many experts on these herbs suggest to keep using them, that this is a natural reaction and it's dispersing toxins from your body. Did you ever get these side effects, and did they go away in time?

 

A friend pointed out an interesting idea to me. He mentioned how each continent has its own adaptogenic plants. It's as if they were placed there by a greater intelligence to aid the people of that region. For instance, Maca in Peru, rhodiola in Russia/Scandinavia, cordyceps in Tibet, reishi in China, ginseng in Europe/America, ashwagandha in India, and so on. What is your opinion on foreigners using herbs native to a certain region of the world? And why do so many Westerners experience side effects from such herbs? I simply wish Western science could concretely link these effects to detoxification. Then I'd feel a lot more comfortable in taking these herbs.

 

I do find all this fascinating, as I'm beginning to get pulled closer to the study and use of such herbs. I guess I'm just looking for some reassurance. 

 

Hi Verdego;

You've posted a number of questions.  I'll try & answer all of them in this post.  If I run out of time, I'll finish it off later in another post.  You also posted in another thread about the amino acid taurine, concerning changes in stool color (going to yellow) & a detox theory,  I don't have any experience w taurine to date, but I know something about detoxing the liver & gall bladder,

 

Let's start w amino acids.

"Can you please tell us more about your glycine and lysine experience? I guess glycine is wonderful for staying asleep all night and is a calming amino acid, and lysine is a serotonin antagonist that can elevate mood in some people."

 

Currently, I'm using the following aminos in different protocols.

I've been trying to follow the Pauling/Rath protocol 4 reversing arterioslcerosis & facilitating collagen producton.  This involves my use of lysine, proline, & ascorbic acid (vitamin C).  As you probably are unaware of, Vitamin C is absorbed by the jeujeunum, the middle part of the small intestine.  The lysine & proline are  small enough to leak into the interstitial fluid.  I feel this may be of good benefit to me as humans do not make their own vitamin C.

 

The glycine figures into my insomnia stack.  I don't know how the quality of your sleep is, but I've had chronic insomnia 4 decades & am now extremely proactive about addressing it, as sleep quality figures significantly in the ageing process, generally deteriorating as one ages.

 

Several studies have shown glycine administered b4 bedtime enables one 2 fall asleep quicker & move deeper into SWS (slow wave sleep), also called stage 3 & 4.  This is where most HGH & tissure repair takes place.  For insomina & better quality sleep, I include 1 mg sublingual melatonin (didn't mention that in my original post.  Probably slipped up one or two other times as well.  My complete stack is, of course, in flux.  Herbs & supplements regularly move in & out of it as new formulas are made or old ones tweaked).  wood betony, valerian root, passionflower, & tulsi (aka holy basil).

It's interesting to me the effects you stated chamomile & passionflower have on you.  Both Passionflower & Tulsi work is by lowering cortisol levels. Chamomile I find calming too. 

 

"Glutamine for me has the same effects as a high amount of glutamic acid found in brown rice. It seems to be rather calming for the mind and its ability to shut off random thoughts (possibly from the conversion to GABA?). Theanine also appears to be a GABA precursor, and is similar in structure to glutamine. Perhaps theanine and glutamine can be alternated to give similar effects on the GABA system without building tolerance? Have you noticed any similarities in effects?"

 

Glutamine & theanine r 2 more amino acids.  I use Glutamine because the body seems to like it.  I've seen it indicaated as good for the liver, soothing to the intestines & somewhat healing in the case of leaky gut syndrome.  I find its taste bland, so it mixes well.

 

Theanine has been around for awhile as a mild nootropic/relaxant.  Studies have indicated it helps the brain produce alpha waves, suggesting a calmer state of mind.  In the past, I've used it to take the edge of cofee when I drank it.  Now theanine goes into a formula now & again.

 

You mention glutamine & theanine in conjunction w GABA, which makes perfect sense concerning your perspective & mine on how they work & what general result to expect.

 

TMG, I'm currently taking in the daytime alone, as what I've read indicates it may have more stimulative properties to it than Glycine does.

 

"Getting back to the Chinese herbs, what would you say is the safest adaptogen in terms of side effects?"

 

Here's where I going to leave off for awhile & get back to later, principally because your question, I believe, is actually asking another larger question.

Side effects, toxicity, & detoxing.  Of what?  Primarily the liver, altho u could add the rest of the alimentary canal w its associated endocrine organs as well as the kidneys in the mix.  But I'l concentrate on the liver as you've mentioned it several times in various posts. 

U can't have a good understanding of the patho-physiology of an organ unless u 1st have a proper understanding of its physiology.  What does the liver actually do when it's working normally?  It does many things.  I'll post back on this later.  I think after physiology is explained, patho-physiology & toxic/detox reactions from various herbs comes better into focus.

There's also the enteric nervous system (ENS) to consider in all of this, because if you believe the herbs & supplements u take r only affecting your mind, you need to reconsider..

 


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#6 son of shen nong

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Posted 02 May 2015 - 10:38 PM


"Getting back to the Chinese herbs, what would you say is the safest adaptogen in terms of side effects? Reishi caused stool discoloration, but I believe this has to do with flushing the liver (taurine, which can reverse liver disease in both fatty and alcoholic livers, produced the same temporary yellowish discoloration). Cordyceps can be too stimulating for me, possibly because of the thyroid. Is there any Chinese herbs/adaptogens that don't affect the thyroid, don't produce strange detox/allergic effects (sore throats, stool discoloration, rashes, etc.), and are highly beneficial for adapting to stress and the evolution of spirit? Once strange side effects in terms of the inner workings of the body (organs and body systems) appear, I automatically stop because I'm fearful I'm causing damage to my body, but many experts on these herbs suggest to keep using them, that this is a natural reaction and it's dispersing toxins from your body. Did you ever get these side effects, and did they go away in time?

 

A friend pointed out an interesting idea to me. He mentioned how each continent has its own adaptogenic plants. It's as if they were placed there by a greater intelligence to aid the people of that region. For instance, Maca in Peru, rhodiola in Russia/Scandinavia, cordyceps in Tibet, reishi in China, ginseng in Europe/America, ashwagandha in India, and so on. What is your opinion on foreigners using herbs native to a certain region of the world? And why do so many Westerners experience side effects from such herbs? I simply wish Western science could concretely link these effects to detoxification. Then I'd feel a lot more comfortable in taking these herbs."

 

The best way to begin to understand an organ's function is to break it down to its smallest functioning unit, as organs are basically big bundles of their smallest functioning unit; ,aveoli, the lungs, & gas exchange, nephrons, the kidney, & blood filtering/purification, you get the idea.  So, hepatic lobules, the liver, & processing fat & toxins.  Now this is a big simplification mind you, the liver also converts sugar to starch as in glycogen & changes the unconjugated bilirubin it receives from the spleen & creates conjugated bilirubin, process production of certain proteins for blood plasma & probably some other stuff I've missed, but processing fat & toxins & bile is it's main gig, IMO.  What does it do w the fat passing thru it?  Create cholesterol.  Cholesterol has many functions as it works it ways thru the body.  Perhaps most importantly, steroid hormones are built from it.  The lobules also make bile acids, using bilirubin & cholesterol while making them.  Toxins are also broken down & attached to this mix.

This is one reason why the quality of fat & your diet is so important.  The liver will process it w less effort. 

It's also said the body in general & the liver in particular, concerning this thread, can do 3 things w what you put into it.  Use it, store it, or get rid of it.

The liver is a prime example of this.  If you overload it over a long period of time or big time over a short period of time or some combination of the two, you start to damage your liver's ability to do what it enjoys doing.  You can get some backup in the system.  If the fat you're eating is not that good, your liver might give up a bit & start storing some fat instead of processing it, altho a small % of fat is normal in the liver.  Lots of toxins typically are stored in fat.  Do you see how a normal liver can slowly become, overtime, more toxic than u would like it to be?  We haven't discussed the bile ducts & the gall bladder, but they can be subject to storing more than they would like to as well.  Hence, a number of different livery pathologies.

So, assisting the liver in removing a fat/toxic buildup hindering it's functioning in a more optimal manner is what you ideally have as a goal w any liver/gall bladder detox regimen.  Specifically to your question, "Getting back to the Chinese herbs, what would you say is the safest adaptogen in terms of side effects?", it would have to depend on the pt. intake, medical history, presenting symptoms, etc.  Two people presenting w the same pathology may have the same treatment prescribed for them or quite different ones, depending on all the variable you're looking at.  If you want a good general answer, which is the best I can give you, I would say look @ all your symptoms & your history, diet, stress levels, triggers, unresolved emotional trauma, etc, & then use that to help guide you for the right herb/supplement or herbal/supplement formula/combination.  And get good quality herbs & supplements.  As long as there is a buck to be made, somewhere people will be peddling junk.

 

"What is your opinion on foreigners using herbs native to a certain region of the world? And why do so many Westerners experience side effects from such herbs?"

I don't see anything wrong w that per se, but again, think about your problem & your body in a whole sense when selecting herbs. 

I can't speak to why so many Westerners experience side effects from herbs  I've never seen any data supporting this, one way or the other.  If it is true, it might be because we in the West have a great deal of access, but greatly enjoy getting inexpensive bargains & in many ways are undereducated concerning the A&P of the body.

 


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#7 VerdeGo

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Posted 03 May 2015 - 05:02 AM

Thank you for the very informative responses. You've helped me to better understand the issue. 

 

Would glycine be a good substitute for cannabis if used solely for sleep? For example, if a person was taking two puffs a night before bed to fall asleep quickly and to stay asleep, and if use was stopped, would glycine be a viable substitute? I know cannabis affects glycine receptors, but I know very little beyond that. I've also read about the melatonin production from cannabis use, and I'm guessing this is why sleep comes easily. 

 

And I do realize that herbs not only affect the brain, but also other organ systems in the body. That was the cause for my initial concern. I don't care about feeling great if it's at the expense of something else in my body. That is why I've been cautious about adaptogens. They're great for stress, and I believe they have helped me to evolve spiritually. However I'm nervous about all the changes being made to my body. And how would an herb know to make all positive changes if it didn't have some sort of intelligence to it? After all, we all have different physiological characteristics, but adaptogens seem to bring everything into balance. What is your spiritual understanding of how/why this occurs? It seems to be the very nature of adaptogens, as opposed to certain effects some herbs and drugs give, which are pretty consistent and in one direction or the other (for instance, most substances don't modulate body systems, they either go in one direction or another, if that makes sense). 

 

You make good points about junk peddlers and buying cheap supplements, especially with reishi. At this point I'm not sure if I need another adaptogen in my life (I've been feeling more alive than I have in years through dietary changes, exercise, and calming supplements like theanine or chamomile), but I plan to meditate on the issue. I think I got into cordyceps and reishi out of curiosity after my friend raved about them. He was full of energy, happy, and couldn't stop talking about them, so I tried them. I certainly don't regret it, and it's been a strange but wonderful experience. However since I was already healthy and normal, I became a little uneasy when I saw changes with my body, so I guess I was looking for some reassurance that I wasn't really destroying my body in the process. 

 

I plan to visit a Chinese herb shop the week after next, but I will meditate in the meantime to see if I need to pursue any more adaptogenic or Chinese herbs at this point. Thank you for taking the time to clear up these concerns of mine and write detailed response to my questions.



#8 son of shen nong

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Posted 03 May 2015 - 07:04 PM

"Would glycine be a good substitute for cannabis if used solely for sleep? For example, if a person was taking two puffs a night before bed to fall asleep quickly and to stay asleep, and if use was stopped, would glycine be a viable substitute? I know cannabis affects glycine receptors, but I know very little beyond that. I've also read about the melatonin production from cannabis use, and I'm guessing this is why sleep comes easily."

 

"And I do realize that herbs not only affect the brain, but also other organ systems in the body. That was the cause for my initial concern. I don't care about feeling great if it's at the expense of something else in my body. That is why I've been cautious about adaptogens. They're great for stress, and I believe they have helped me to evolve spiritually. However I'm nervous about all the changes being made to my body. And how would an herb know to make all positive changes if it didn't have some sort of intelligence to it? After all, we all have different physiological characteristics, but adaptogens seem to bring everything into balance. What is your spiritual understanding of how/why this occurs? It seems to be the very nature of adaptogens, as opposed to certain effects some herbs and drugs give, which are pretty consistent and in one direction or the other (for instance, most substances don't modulate body systems, they either go in one direction or another, if that makes sense)."

 

I plan to visit a Chinese herb shop the week after next, but I will meditate in the meantime to see if I need to pursue any more adaptogenic or Chinese herbs at this point. Thank you for taking the time to clear up these concerns of mine and write detailed response to my questions.

 

Hi again VerdeGo;

 

Here are 2 pubmed links concerning glycine & sleep.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/22529837

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/22293292

 

Regarding your specific question concerning substituting glycine for prebedtime cannabis usage, I'm assuming you've been using an indica or possibly a hybrid as opposed to a pure sativa.

I'm not sure of your age & the pathology of the implied insomnia you're referring to.  Trouble falling asleep or trouble staying asleep, or a combination of the two is the usual insomniac complaint.

As I may have mentioned elsewhere, I use glycine to help me both fall asleep & fall asleep relatively quickly.  Currently, I'm using it in conjunction w 1 mg sublingual melatonin, as well as a few western herbs.  I also "set the mood" for my sleep by dimming lights & staying away from any sensory input I deem to stimulating for me (violent movies, the news, bright lights, etc) prior to sleep.  On occasion, I use topical magnesium (shower it off after 15-20 minutes).  This all works fairly well for me, altho this formula is in flux & I may vary it from time to time depending on what I'm feeling, what I want, & whether something new has come into the picture.

Of course, I'm in my 60's & an individuals biochemistry changes regarding quantity of hormones produced, relative health of the body, etc, over time.

 

Regarding your 2nd question, don't underestimate the intelligence of herbs or the innate intelligence of your own body, for that matter.  Perhaps consciousness is a better word to use than intelligence.  As far as how "adaptogens" bring everything into balance, you may want to look again @ your liver.  It does a number of physiological functions for the benefit of your health & body.  Adaptogenic herbs likewise work on more than one level.  Not that uncommon when you compare it to your body.

Western pharmaceutical medicine typically ascribes one function to a drug & can have a difficult time categorizing adaptogenic herbs, as they typically work in more than one way.

 

 

 

 

 

 


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#9 son of shen nong

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Posted 05 May 2015 - 10:03 PM

Does anyone have a marked preference for extracts over raw herbs or viceversa?

 

I've found both have their place in my diet.

For example, I experience a transient rise in my testosterone levels when I take 50:1 organic nettle root extract powder.

Don't have any blood work to back up my claim, but I notice other things, like feeling more belligerent or getting a

spontaneous erection in the afternoon (I'm in my 60's, so this would not be an everyday occurrence).  On the other hand,

huang qi (astragalus), a qi tonic which may have some antiaging benefits regarding telomeres,

http://www.chatelain...g-and-healthy/ , tastes delicious

if you get good quality raw herb powder, & works a lot better when I'm mixing a formula than the astragalus extracts I have.


The link is my previous post isn't working.  Here it is again.

http://www.chatelain...ng-and-healthy/



#10 VerdeGo

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Posted 06 May 2015 - 02:53 AM

Hi there, thank you again for the informative feedback. I'm 37, but I've been using the above method for sleep on-and-off for over 15 years. I sleep like a baby, and I never encounter sleep issues. But if this herb is removed, I do realize I may have immense trouble with sleep and other issues. Hence the glycine. Melatonin can help with sleep, but it makes dreams far more vivid than normal and leaves a restless feeling the following day. Should melatonin be taken in the morning and not the evening for best results? Does topical magnesium provide a calming effect? I'm about to purchase magnesium glycinate, though I've noticed in the past that simply soaking my feet in an epsom salt bath made me noticeably more relaxed. At the time I passed this off as placebo. Can magnesium absorb through the skin and affect the brain in such a fashion? I'm sure it can absorb when you're naked and in a bathtub of epsom salt water, since one's anus is exposed to the salts, but I've heard conflicting feedback when it concerns the skin.

 

I also think you made a good point when you wrote about intelligence versus consciousness in herbs. I've always wondered if such herbs, or any plants in general, have souls or other etheric matter. I mean to say, they're alive, right? Everything living has a consciousness, that we know of at least. When the herbs are extracted or dried, these fragments are no longer alive, but contain many chemicals that are still active. Does this consciousness expand to this form of the plant as well? 



#11 son of shen nong

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Posted 06 May 2015 - 06:38 PM

Hi there, thank you again for the informative feedback. I'm 37, but I've been using the above method for sleep on-and-off for over 15 years. I sleep like a baby, and I never encounter sleep issues. But if this herb is removed, I do realize I may have immense trouble with sleep and other issues. Hence the glycine. Melatonin can help with sleep, but it makes dreams far more vivid than normal and leaves a restless feeling the following day. Should melatonin be taken in the morning and not the evening for best results? Does topical magnesium provide a calming effect? I'm about to purchase magnesium glycinate, though I've noticed in the past that simply soaking my feet in an epsom salt bath made me noticeably more relaxed. At the time I passed this off as placebo. Can magnesium absorb through the skin and affect the brain in such a fashion? I'm sure it can absorb when you're naked and in a bathtub of epsom salt water, since one's anus is exposed to the salts, but I've heard conflicting feedback when it concerns the skin.

 

I also think you made a good point when you wrote about intelligence versus consciousness in herbs. I've always wondered if such herbs, or any plants in general, have souls or other etheric matter. I mean to say, they're alive, right? Everything living has a consciousness, that we know of at least. When the herbs are extracted or dried, these fragments are no longer alive, but contain many chemicals that are still active. Does this consciousness expand to this form of the plant as well? 

 

It's funny your talking about removing cannabis from your sleep stack, as I have lately added it, on occasion, to mine.  Regarding melatonin, if your taking the sublingual kind, I've always assumed it's best to take it 30 minutes or so before sleeping.  Taking it early in the day might wash it out of the system, so to speak, by the time you're  ready to turn in for the night.  Were you thinking of doing that because of the vivid dreams melatonin usually gives you?  If so, I can see two courses of action you might take.  One is cutting in half the dose of melatonin you usually take.  The second would be working on becoming more conscious in your dreams so that you can control the action going on there.  A good flying dream, tho vivid, always leaves me with a ton of energy when I wake up from it.

Regarding topical magnesium, it can be very effective @ relaxing you.  I use Life-Flo Magnesium gel.  I'll slather a lot on my thighs & legs or my chest & abs, or all of them sometimes, then wait 15 minutes or so & shower everything off.  If you do too much, it can have a laxative effect.  The gel can itch after you put it on.  Also, if you have a cut, the magnesium might feel like it's burning it, altho I'm not sure if that's actually the case. Because of what I just wrote, probably not a good idea to get it in your eyes.  Epsom salt bath works too, altho I think the gel is a bit more effective. 

 

About consciousness & plants, of course, this topic is open to wide speculation.  Two books you might consider looking @ are The Secret Life of Plants & Secrets of the Soil.

I've grown plants commercially from seed to harvest in the past & nobody has to tell me plants have a consciousness.  I've seen & felt it.  Like most subtle energies, it requires a subtle awareness to feel or tap into it.

I like to think that when we eat part of or the entire plant, some of the consciousness of that plant is transferred to us.  When you think of Shen herbs like Ling Zhi, a bit like a benign & pleasant version of "Invasion of the Body Snatchers".
 


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#12 VerdeGo

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Posted 07 May 2015 - 03:48 AM

The issue with cannabis is it's hard to tell what strain a user is actually getting. Plus it's heavily abused and frowned upon in society, though its medicinal value is finally beginning to become known and appreciated in the west, along with decriminalization. But depending on one substance repetitively for sleep will probably cause issues when that substance is removed, so a backup plan seems like a smart approach. Glycine+melatonin seems pretty realistic. Along with perhaps taurine, gastrodin, and a few others. I actually bought gastrodin today to try it out to see how it compares with theanine by increasing GABA levels, and I see it's extracted from the root of a Chinese orchid. Do you have any experience with this orchid? 

 

As far as melatonin, I've been lucid in my dreams before by simply keeping a dream journal, and I've had many flying dreams, but using those dreams to achieve a true out-of-body-experience never seemed to work, as I would just re-enter another dream, thinking I was back in reality. When I realized I was still dreaming, I would "wake up" again into yet another dream, and this is where the fear would start to set in. My dream world became alive after a few weeks of keeping that journal. Also, if cannabis releases so much melatonin in the brain, then why does it often dull dreams and make them hard to remember, whereas melatonin has the opposite effect? Unfortunately after becoming somewhat aware in melatonin-induced dreams, they tend to become a tad scary or out-of-control. I know I can master this again by keeping a dream journal to make myself more self-aware. I stopped because I started getting disturbing premonitions (which came true 7 years later, just as the man in the dream said it would), and I disliked forcing myself up after waking from a dream to write down the details. This obviously involved turning on a light around 4 am. Ouch! I was 15 at the time I kept the journal. But it worked, and it worked very very well. So I may just go back into doing that.

 

Before getting magnesium gel I'll try the glycinate chelate form of it, which I've read absorbs very well without a laxative side effect. I'm assuming this would be beneficial for sleep as well as anxiety. 

 

And as far as plants go, I remember reading about The Secret Life of Plants when I was reading The Tenth Insight over 16 years ago (based on The Celestine Prophecy book). For some reason the title of that book always stuck out, and I must thank you for mentioning it again because I'm purchasing it tomorrow. That book and The Mood Cure should provide an interesting read.

 

Thank you again for being so knowledgeable on the subject and sharing your personal experiences. I also didn't mean to hijack your thread with so many non-Chinese herb questions, but your responses have been informative and well received.  



#13 AlexCanada

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Posted 07 May 2015 - 11:25 AM

Suggestions on alternatives for He Sho Wu?  Great for my low adrenals and helps invigorate some interest in me but it seems not good for my liver as my skins becomes more yellow.  Otherwise I would love to have kept taking it! Astonishingly notable benefits to mood when most else have failed. 

 

I'm considering ordering Rehmannia. 



#14 son of shen nong

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Posted 08 May 2015 - 03:44 AM

The issue with cannabis is it's hard to tell what strain a user is actually getting. Plus it's heavily abused and frowned upon in society, though its medicinal value is finally beginning to become known and appreciated in the west, along with decriminalization. But depending on one substance repetitively for sleep will probably cause issues when that substance is removed, so a backup plan seems like a smart approach. Glycine+melatonin seems pretty realistic. Along with perhaps taurine, gastrodin, and a few others. I actually bought gastrodin today to try it out to see how it compares with theanine by increasing GABA levels, and I see it's extracted from the root of a Chinese orchid. Do you have any experience with this orchid? 

 


 

You're probably referring to Tian Ma, aka gastrodia elata.  I don't have any experience taking this herb.

I do take Shi Hu, aka dendrobium nobile, but that's to tone up my stomach.

Here's a link on the use of orchids in Chinese medicine.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC2121637/

In this article, under Tian Ma, it says this herb may lower GABA

Here's a link to a longecity thread on gastrodin from Tian Ma.  In it, the article they refer to claims gastrodin raises GABA.

http://www.longecity...7238-gastrodin/

So I'm confused.  What else is new? :-)  It does look to be an interesting herb as far as all it may do.

Please post any results you find interesting from taking it.


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#15 VerdeGo

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Posted 08 May 2015 - 03:59 AM

I certainly will and thanks again for the recommendations. You are a true gentleman and a scholar. As far as gastrodin and its effects on GABA, these are the three sites that turned me onto it and gave me a little more insight:

 

http://www.lifeexten...n-Aging/Page-01 This is the company I bought from

http://tcm.lifescien...ingredient=gaba

http://www.kpc.com.c...sp?ArticleID=27  This site looks to be Chinese in origin, but I liked how they included info on half-life and other stats

 

The Secret Life of Plants should arrive Saturday. When I walked out into my garden today, I viewed my plants and crops differently. I sent them positive vibes and spoke positively to them as I watered them. I also have several pieces of orgonite (supposedly clears the atmosphere of negative orgone energy, and there's a lot of information and experiments involving plants thriving around these orgonite pieces). Anywho, thanks again for taking the time to answer questions.



#16 son of shen nong

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Posted 08 May 2015 - 03:37 PM

Suggestions on alternatives for He Sho Wu?  Great for my low adrenals and helps invigorate some interest in me but it seems not good for my liver as my skins becomes more yellow.  Otherwise I would love to have kept taking it! Astonishingly notable benefits to mood when most else have failed. 

 

I'm considering ordering Rehmannia. 

 

I believe you're implying by your skin turning yellow when you take He Shou Wu that you may have suffered liver damage.  This is never a good sign.

Was the He Shou Wu you took a single herb or part of a formula?  Was it the raw herb or an extract?  Altho liver damage has been noted from taking He Shou Wu, the quality of Chinese herbs can vary greatly.  You may be better off not buying herbs than  buying inexpensive herbs and/or formulae that can be weak enough to be ineffective and/or contaminated w pesticides, herbicides, bacteria, heavy metals, adulterants, etc.  This is not always the case w inexpensive herbs, but sometimes you get what you pay for.

Having said that, let's talk about He Shou Wu & Rehmannia.  In TCM, these two herbs are actually four, because there are both unprepared & prepared versions of each. unprepared He Shou Wu is called Ye Jiao Teng.  He Shou Wu is prepared by cooking this herb in black beans for 3 days or so, slowly cooking it down until you end up w what's called He Shou Wu.  Rehmannia is called Sheng Di Huang or Shu Di Huang, depending or whether it's unprepared or prepared, respectively.  Shu Di Huang can be prepared different ways, by steaming or w spirits or wine.

In their prepared forms, both of these herbs are considered tonics.  There are 4 types of tonics in TCM.  Blood tonics, qi tonics, yin tonics & yang tonics.  Both He Shou Wu & Shu Di Huang are considered blood tonics.

Not sure exactly what you were using He Shou Wu for.  You mentioned adrenals & "invigorating some interest", which may also refer to your adrenals, but the adrenals, sitting on top of the kidneys, have a lot going for them & there are a number of ways to revive them

I do know that both He Shou Wu & Shu Di Huang are high in SOD, a powerful antioxidant.

http://en.wikipedia....oxide_dismutase

A qi tonic, Jiao Gu Lan, aka gynostemma, is also high in SOD.  SOD can also be purchased by itself.

Lastly, improving your diet, as well as getting enough rest & exercise, are good for the liver.
 


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#17 Flex

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Posted 15 May 2015 - 09:50 PM

Looks like that Gastrodia elevates GABA (A)

Gastrodia Elata Bl Attenuates Cocaine-Induced Conditioned Place Preference and Convulsion, but not Behavioral Sensitization in Mice: Importance of GABA(A) Receptors.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/21886556


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#18 VerdeGo

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Posted 16 May 2015 - 03:17 AM

Thanks for sharing that. I have a bottle of gastrodin, just haven't had a chance to test it yet since I'm working with lavender and lemon balm at the present moment. I just wish there were more firsthand accounts of use to put my mind at ease. But so far, in both studies and anecdotal reports, I haven't come across anything negative. 



#19 John250

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Posted 12 June 2018 - 04:42 AM

Anyone still use Tulsi (holy basil)?

#20 chris85

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Posted 16 June 2018 - 02:33 PM

He shou wu should be safe as a long term tonic as long as it has been prepared with black beans. I noticed a lot of commerically available stuff is not, to save money probably. I thought I'd add some experience here:

 

Panax ginseng: This is perhaps my favourite herb. I use 6 year old root extracts of Korean red ginseng w/o any artificial concentration. This seems to boost cognition, sex drive, mood at the very least from my experience. I just take a few capsules in the morning to avoid over stimulation. I've been combining it with ashwagandha, which seems like a nice combination. This is about as far as my experience goes with the great tonic herbs, apart from ashwagandha which is awesome. I plan on also trying he shou wu and schisandra.

 

For sleep, I use a combination of valerian, fresh skullcap, lemon balm, passion flower, lobelia, and often a few more. I have a serious sleeping disorder and this combination does help and is rather strong. I use tinctures usually.

 

 

 

 


Edited by chris85, 16 June 2018 - 02:34 PM.

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#21 kurdishfella

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Posted 05 December 2022 - 09:23 AM

Chinese have been the ones that dealt with herbs / natural drugs the longest hence their historical success.


Edited by kurdishfella, 05 December 2022 - 09:23 AM.






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