17 replies to this topic

[stan08]

Has anyone tried (or are currently using) these two minerals at the same time for anxiety/depression?  If so, have you noticed any negative interactions?  I was thinking about starting magnesium malate (500 mg of the slow release formula by Jigsaw) and lithium orotate (5-10 mg of elemental lithium by Advanced Research) but have seen it mentioned in a few places online that one may interact with or block the effects of the other.  However, I'm having trouble locating any studies that actually back these statements up.  Any help or information would be greatly appreciated.

[Flex]

This is how I´ve found it, I´ve typed: Lithium Magnesium mood in pubmed and got this:

 

Two enzymatic chains or pathways emerge as targets for lithium: inositol monophosphatase within the phosphatidylinositol signalling pathway and the protein kinase glycogen synthase kinase 3.

Lithium inhibits these enzymes through displacing the normal cofactor magnesium, a vital regulator of numerous signalling pathways.

 

Lithium: the pharmacodynamic actions of the amazing ion

http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC3805456/

[Duchykins]

Meh.  I've been doing that on and off for about a year now.  I always take magnesium malate every single day, but sometimes I'll also take 5 or 10 mg of lithium orotate for a week or two.

 

I also stagger the doses but that is not particularly deliberate since I take the magnesium on empty stomach first thing in the morning (with all my other stuff that's best taken without food), then the lithium and the other stuff that should be taken with food at least an hour later.  The staggering probably does nothing significant though.   I've never had any trouble with it except some extra munchies towards the end of the couple of weeks, which is just a known side effect of lithium, and partly why I'll take a break from it for a while.

 

10 mg of lithium is a waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay ridiculously subtherapeutic dose.  It's a dietary/nutritional dose of an electrolyte.  It's not going to have those kinds of interactions at those kinds of doses.

 

Any studies about therapeutic doses of lithium (which is nearly all of the studies on lithium in the body, including the one Flex cited) are about doses more in the range of roughly 0.9 grams to 1.2 grams daily, @ about 300 mg a few times a day.

 

If the study involves subtherapeutic doses then they will be specifically mentioned somewhere in the paper. 

[Duchykins]

** Additionally, if the lithium at any time interfered with the magnesium, I would have experienced an increase in migraine frequency and severity.  I know this because a few times when I screwed up ordering magnesium or if a shipment was delayed and I ran out for a couple of days (or I would cut the dose in half to stretch out what I had) ... hello, migraines. 

 

On the other hand, If the magnesium interfered with the lithium ... I wouldn't have noticed a damn thing since I don't need lithium for migraine prophylaxis.

Edited by Duchykins, 23 July 2015 - 06:04 AM.

[stan08]

This is how I´ve found it, I´ve typed: Lithium Magnesium mood in pubmed and got this:

 

Two enzymatic chains or pathways emerge as targets for lithium: inositol monophosphatase within the phosphatidylinositol signalling pathway and the protein kinase glycogen synthase kinase 3.

Lithium inhibits these enzymes through displacing the normal cofactor magnesium, a vital regulator of numerous signalling pathways.

 

Lithium: the pharmacodynamic actions of the amazing ion

http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC3805456/

 

Thank you for the link.  That's actually one that I had found but admit that I didn't understand a lot of it.

[stan08]

Meh.  I've been doing that on and off for about a year now.  I always take magnesium malate every single day, but sometimes I'll also take 5 or 10 mg of lithium orotate for a week or two.

 

I also stagger the doses but that is not particularly deliberate since I take the magnesium on empty stomach first thing in the morning (with all my other stuff that's best taken without food), then the lithium and the other stuff that should be taken with food at least an hour later.  The staggering probably does nothing significant though.   I've never had any trouble with it except some extra munchies towards the end of the couple of weeks, which is just a known side effect of lithium, and partly why I'll take a break from it for a while.

 

10 mg of lithium is a waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay ridiculously subtherapeutic dose.  It's a dietary/nutritional dose of an electrolyte.  It's not going to have those kinds of interactions at those kinds of doses.

 

Any studies about therapeutic doses of lithium (which is nearly all of the studies on lithium in the body, including the one Flex cited) are about doses more in the range of roughly 0.9 grams to 1.2 grams daily, @ about 300 mg a few times a day.

 

If the study involves subtherapeutic doses then they will be specifically mentioned somewhere in the paper. 

 

 

** Additionally, if the lithium at any time interfered with the magnesium, I would have experienced an increase in migraine frequency and severity.  I know this because a few times when I screwed up ordering magnesium or if a shipment was delayed and I ran out for a couple of days (or I would cut the dose in half to stretch out what I had) ... hello, migraines. 

 

On the other hand, If the magnesium interfered with the lithium ... I wouldn't have noticed a damn thing since I don't need lithium for migraine prophylaxis.

 

Thank you for providing your experience with using both.  I'm just hoping the two will solve the extreme irritability/anger issues I've been having the last two weeks.  

 

For a little background - I was taking a multi and ashwagandha during the day and magnesium glycinate (400 mg) and lithium orotate (5 mg) at night with pretty good results.  However, for some reason about three weeks ago I just decided to stop taking the lithium, decrease my calcium intake (gave up dairy) and increase my vitamin d amount (from 2000 iu/day to 5,000 iu/day).  About a week after making that change I started getting migraines and muscle cramps (surprisingly, the cramps were in my neck and back...two areas I never got them before).  Since then I'd learned that too much vitamin d can decrease (or at least show you're deficient in) magnesium.  So, I dropped the vitamin d dose back down and increased my magnesium.  I'm now taking about 760 mg/day of magnesium (360 mg of mag malate during the day and 400 mg of mag glycinate before bed).  So, far it hasn't helped (although, it's only been a few days since I made the change).  So, I was thinking about adding lithium back in to see if that makes a difference.  If not, the only other change I made three weeks ago was significantly dropping my calcium intake but I don't see how that could cause the issues I'm having.  

 

Edit:  wanted to add that another strange symptom that started about two weeks ago was very bad joint pain.  However, I'm not sure how that relates to the changes I made to my supplements/diet.

Edited by stan08, 23 July 2015 - 01:01 PM.

[gamesguru]

I get enough lithium from my spring water.  Lithium can cause derealization, confusion, poor memory, lack of awareness, and some physical effects.  Orotate is potent, it affected me at 2.3mg daily.

 

As well, the DRA for magnesium is ~450mg, so 500 + food sources = ~700mg, probably more than you need.  Magnesium is almost sedating or tranquilizing.

So yes, combined, they might interfere with work, school, and operating machinery.

[Duchykins]

 

 

Thank you for providing your experience with using both.  I'm just hoping the two will solve the extreme irritability/anger issues I've been having the last two weeks.  

 

For a little background - I was taking a multi and ashwagandha during the day and magnesium glycinate (400 mg) and lithium orotate (5 mg) at night with pretty good results.  However, for some reason about three weeks ago I just decided to stop taking the lithium, decrease my calcium intake (gave up dairy) and increase my vitamin d amount (from 2000 iu/day to 5,000 iu/day).  About a week after making that change I started getting migraines and muscle cramps (surprisingly, the cramps were in my neck and back...two areas I never got them before).  Since then I'd learned that too much vitamin d can decrease (or at least show you're deficient in) magnesium.  So, I dropped the vitamin d dose back down and increased my magnesium.  I'm now taking about 760 mg/day of magnesium (360 mg of mag malate during the day and 400 mg of mag glycinate before bed).  So, far it hasn't helped (although, it's only been a few days since I made the change).  So, I was thinking about adding lithium back in to see if that makes a difference.  If not, the only other change I made three weeks ago was significantly dropping my calcium intake but I don't see how that could cause the issues I'm having.  

 

Edit:  wanted to add that another strange symptom that started about two weeks ago was very bad joint pain.  However, I'm not sure how that relates to the changes I made to my supplements/diet.

 

 

Therapeutic doses of magnesium hang around 600 mg, but you should take your mag dose back to 400 mg, put the vitamin D back to 2000 IU

 

Muscle cramps, irritability, joint pain combined with all this messing around with electrolytes sounds like it could be an electrolyte imbalance.  It's just like B vitamins -- if you're taking large doses of just one for a good while, and neglecting all the others, it's going to cause some problems eventually.

 

Your calcium could be too low.  If you don't want to go back on dairy try kefir.  At the very least the kefir would be a bit calming by supporting GABA in your gut.

 

 

Unless you were having all these problems before starting the lithium, 5 mg of elemental lithium probably has nothing to do with any of this since it's such a low dose.

[stan08]

 

 

 

Thank you for providing your experience with using both.  I'm just hoping the two will solve the extreme irritability/anger issues I've been having the last two weeks.  

 

For a little background - I was taking a multi and ashwagandha during the day and magnesium glycinate (400 mg) and lithium orotate (5 mg) at night with pretty good results.  However, for some reason about three weeks ago I just decided to stop taking the lithium, decrease my calcium intake (gave up dairy) and increase my vitamin d amount (from 2000 iu/day to 5,000 iu/day).  About a week after making that change I started getting migraines and muscle cramps (surprisingly, the cramps were in my neck and back...two areas I never got them before).  Since then I'd learned that too much vitamin d can decrease (or at least show you're deficient in) magnesium.  So, I dropped the vitamin d dose back down and increased my magnesium.  I'm now taking about 760 mg/day of magnesium (360 mg of mag malate during the day and 400 mg of mag glycinate before bed).  So, far it hasn't helped (although, it's only been a few days since I made the change).  So, I was thinking about adding lithium back in to see if that makes a difference.  If not, the only other change I made three weeks ago was significantly dropping my calcium intake but I don't see how that could cause the issues I'm having.  

 

Edit:  wanted to add that another strange symptom that started about two weeks ago was very bad joint pain.  However, I'm not sure how that relates to the changes I made to my supplements/diet.

 

 

Therapeutic doses of magnesium hang around 600 mg, but you should take your mag dose back to 400 mg, put the vitamin D back to 2000 IU

 

Muscle cramps, irritability, joint pain combined with all this messing around with electrolytes sounds like it could be an electrolyte imbalance.  It's just like B vitamins -- if you're taking large doses of just one for a good while, and neglecting all the others, it's going to cause some problems eventually.

 

Your calcium could be too low.  If you don't want to go back on dairy try kefir.  At the very least the kefir would be a bit calming by supporting GABA in your gut.

 

 

Unless you were having all these problems before starting the lithium, 5 mg of elemental lithium probably has nothing to do with any of this since it's such a low dose.

 

 

Thanks for the advice.  I believe I will drop back to exactly what I was taking before (multi and ashwagandha during the day and 400 mg magnesium glycinate and 5 mg lithium before bed).  I'll also add back in dairy (or at least almond milk with added calcium).  I definitely didn't have these problems before lithium.  The problems just started when I stopped lithium and dairy and also increased vitamin d (all at the same time).

 

edit:  Oh yeah, forgot to mention that the other side effect I noticed over the last couple weeks is complete lack of libido (which is normally very high for me).  Also, another supplement change I had made was taking a higher quality multivitamin which contained high doses of the active b vitamins.  So, I basically changed a few things all on the same day and I just got confused as to what could have been causing the problems (anxiety, anger, lack of libido).

Edited by stan08, 23 July 2015 - 05:06 PM.

[stan08]

I get enough lithium from my spring water.  Lithium can cause derealization, confusion, poor memory, lack of awareness, and some physical effects.  Orotate is potent, it affected me at 2.3mg daily.

 

As well, the DRA for magnesium is ~450mg, so 500 + food sources = ~700mg, probably more than you need.  Magnesium is almost sedating or tranquilizing.

So yes, combined, they might interfere with work, school, and operating machinery.

 

Higher doses of lithium did have those side effects.  However, in the past I found that when I dropped it to just 5-10 mg that it worked very well at stopping intrusive thoughts/negative thinking.  

 

Typically magnesium has been sedating for me (which is why I always took it at night...as magnesium glycinate or magnesium citrate).  However, I've found over the last few days that the extra magnesium malate I was taking didn't relax me at all...I just felt even more energized/anxious.  Not what I was expecting at all.

[Duchykins]

 

I get enough lithium from my spring water.  Lithium can cause derealization, confusion, poor memory, lack of awareness, and some physical effects.  Orotate is potent, it affected me at 2.3mg daily.

 

As well, the DRA for magnesium is ~450mg, so 500 + food sources = ~700mg, probably more than you need.  Magnesium is almost sedating or tranquilizing.

So yes, combined, they might interfere with work, school, and operating machinery.

 

Higher doses of lithium did have those side effects.  However, in the past I found that when I dropped it to just 5-10 mg that it worked very well at stopping intrusive thoughts/negative thinking.  

 

Typically magnesium has been sedating for me (which is why I always took it at night...as magnesium glycinate or magnesium citrate).  However, I've found over the last few days that the extra magnesium malate I was taking didn't relax me at all...I just felt even more energized/anxious.  Not what I was expecting at all.

 

 

Then it might just be the malic acid throwing off your citric acid cycle.  You might have to lay off the mag malate all together.

 

That's exactly what happened with me and magnesium citrate.  Citrate made me worse, more irritable and restless, while malate made me better than ever when I switched, but it took me a while to see that it was the mag citrate because I always assumed it would calm me instead.

 

[stan08]

 

 

I get enough lithium from my spring water.  Lithium can cause derealization, confusion, poor memory, lack of awareness, and some physical effects.  Orotate is potent, it affected me at 2.3mg daily.

 

As well, the DRA for magnesium is ~450mg, so 500 + food sources = ~700mg, probably more than you need.  Magnesium is almost sedating or tranquilizing.

So yes, combined, they might interfere with work, school, and operating machinery.

 

Higher doses of lithium did have those side effects.  However, in the past I found that when I dropped it to just 5-10 mg that it worked very well at stopping intrusive thoughts/negative thinking.  

 

Typically magnesium has been sedating for me (which is why I always took it at night...as magnesium glycinate or magnesium citrate).  However, I've found over the last few days that the extra magnesium malate I was taking didn't relax me at all...I just felt even more energized/anxious.  Not what I was expecting at all.

 

 

Then it might just be the malic acid throwing off your citric acid cycle.  You might have to lay off the mag malate all together.

 

That's exactly what happened with me and magnesium citrate.  Citrate made me worse, more irritable and restless, while malate made me better than ever when I switched, but it took me a while to see that it was the mag citrate because I always assumed it would calm me instead.

 

 

So, the increase in energy/anxiety from the magnesium malate (even more than what I'd already been experiencing) could be because either I'm taking too much magnesium (thus throwing off my calcium:magnesium ratio even more) or because of the malic acid?  If I have that correct, then it's definitely a good reason to stop taking magnesium malate during the day.  Just to be sure, I'll just take 400-500 mg of magnesium glycinate at night, add back in calcium from dairy (or another source) and see if things stabilize. 

[Duchykins]

Yeah just go back to what you were doing before and see how that goes.  Good luck!

[StephCThomp]

I do just want to correct/clarify some of the information here about Lithium dosing....

 

900mg+ is a medical/drug dose used to manage severe conditions such as Schizophrenia. This has potent, unpleasant and risky side effects.

 

Population research strongly implies that orthomolecular micro-doses of Lithium from the water supply, averaging just 56mcg, are associated with marked positive effects on mood/suicide/criminal behaviour.  Therefore we can expect that the much larger (but still very tiny) nutritional dose of 5mg/day should be more than enough to support calm mood and brain health in an otherwise normal person.  Personally, I would take less than that - perhaps 5mg every second day.

 

(Certainly Lithium is very much more than just an electrolyte; and at these micro doses, I don't expect it would even be noticed by the body electrolytically.)

[gamesguru]

900mg+ non-elemental lithium, and the orotate form is more bioavailable (from what I recall)...that's why 2.3mg elemental lithium daily can have obvious effects.

[Duchykins]

I do just want to correct/clarify some of the information here about Lithium dosing....

 

900mg+ is a medical/drug dose used to manage severe conditions such as Schizophrenia. This has potent, unpleasant and risky side effects.

 

Population research strongly implies that orthomolecular micro-doses of Lithium from the water supply, averaging just 56mcg, are associated with marked positive effects on mood/suicide/criminal behaviour.  Therefore we can expect that the much larger (but still very tiny) nutritional dose of 5mg/day should be more than enough to support calm mood and brain health in an otherwise normal person.  Personally, I would take less than that - perhaps 5mg every second day.

 

(Certainly Lithium is very much more than just an electrolyte; and at these micro doses, I don't expect it would even be noticed by the body electrolytically.)

 

I don't know why you think calling it an electrolyte somehow diminishes what it is.  It's a chemical description of what it does when dissolved.  That doesn't mean it has to have some noticeable effect in the body.

 

You're right about the research piling up, though.  

 

But we have to be careful which journals we get our information from.  There has been research done on lithium on both sides of the tracks; by legit journals and by junk journals.  The junk journals tend to offer stronger claims about lithium and a wider scope of application for it.  This is not to say that legit journals don't have good things to say about low dose lithium because there are certainly some papers out there from major journals that indicate it is useful to us.

 

I've been hoping that more parties become interested enough to fund larger-scale properly controlled studies.  Hopefully sometime in the next decade these smaller studies will start to accumulate and grab the attention of more research institutions.

[Duchykins]

900mg+ non-elemental lithium, and the orotate form is more bioavailable (from what I recall)...that's why 2.3mg elemental lithium daily can have obvious effects.

 

 

http://www.alzdiscov...upplement-doses

 

Lithium orotate supplements are often touted as “safer, “natural,” or more effective at reaching the brain than other lithium salts. A German physician, Hans Nieper, heavily promoted the use of lithium orotate, believing that lithium would remain bound to the orotate until it reached its target tissues (i.e. the brain). Unfortunately, we could find no credible research to back these claims. 

In one study from the 1970’s, injection with lithium orotate versus lithium carbonate did result in higher levels in the brain of rats [8]. However, this study used a high-dose preparation of lithium orotate that probably impaired kidney function and led to slower secretion of lithium from the body [9]. In other words, lithium orotate didn’t penetrate the brain better; it just accumulated in the brain and body because the kidney failed to remove it quickly. In contrast, when equivalent doses of lithium ion were injected into rats as either lithium orotate, lithium carbonate, or lithium chloride, the resulting levels of lithium across the body and brain were very similar [10]. 

Does this mean that lithium orotate will damage your kidney? Common sense suggests no, probably not if taken in the low daily doses that are sold over-the-counter. Lithium orotate has been virtually unstudied by scientists over the last 40 years but, given the number of supplements sold and the personal experiences described on internet forums, it seems likely that these supplements are safe in most people and might even help some individuals. However, the popular claim that lithium orotate penetrates the brain better than lithium carbonate has no scientific basis.

 

I take the orotate only because as a migraineur I have little tolerance for aspartates.  But I think that orotate myth began when people starting noticing the efficacy of low doses of it.  But it's really just that the lithium itself is simply helpful at microdoses, it has nothing to do with it whatever it's bound to.

[stan08]

Yeah just go back to what you were doing before and see how that goes. Good luck!

A short update...the added calcium seems to be helping some. I'm still pretty irritable all day but I imagine it will take more time to fix an electrolite imbalance.

One thing I did remember is that the week before I started having all these problems (besides the supplement changes I already mentioned) I stopped taking flonase for my allergies (due to cost). Do you know if allergy issues could somehow be related to my problems (maybe due to high histamine)?