13 replies to this topic

[Major Legend]

Hello,

 

I have been reading a lot on this c60 forum, but some things still bug me

 

- Is C60 the active component in the mixture, or is it the things that C60 may break down into outside or inside the body? Has anyone actually for sure figured out what they are actually taking? e.g. pure dissolved c60 in olive oil.

 

- Is there any indication that C60 dissolved in olive oil is safe even after exposure to air and light? 

 

- Is the usage of a filter necessary?

 

- So basically nobody knows how C60 breaks down in the body? Does it even?

 

- When we make C60 in olive oil without vacuum conditions and without dark room conditions, do we create all sorts of c60 derivatives that could replicate

the studies of C60 derivatives causing oxidative damage?

 

- Do we know if most C60 derivatives are safe?

 

- Photoexcited C60 cause severe oxidative damage, does that mean the c60 needs to be made in the dark? or do they mean using some other type of UV light.

 

- C60 has various derivatives like epoxides? These derivatives may appear as a reaction to air (ozone)  and can be oxidants that cause damage to tissue

 

http://blogs.lt.vt.e...in-ambient-air/

 

“the lethal dose of fullerene changed over seven orders of magnitude with relatively minor alterations in fullerene structure"

 

https://books.google...oxidant&f=false

 

 

 

- C60 can travel to anywhere including DNA? Potentially cause damage? Has this ever been rebuked?

 

- Has the only study been the primary one and the AgeVivo one, I read use the leftover oil from that study and all the mouse

developed cancer and died at a normal age?

 

 

 

I may have missed a lot of posts, as the c60 post is utterly massive and impossible to humanly go through from the start to the end.

 

Trying to work out if I missed out on anything regarding the potential issues.

 

Edited by Major Legend, 23 December 2015 - 06:26 PM.

[Mind]

Here are a couple of studies you might find useful to answer a couple of your questions.

 

http://www.longecity...t-model-of-aml/

 

http://www.longecity...ored-aml-study/

[Major Legend]

Here are a couple of studies you might find useful to answer a couple of your questions.

 

http://www.longecity...t-model-of-aml/

 

http://www.longecity...ored-aml-study/

Thanks! I didn't realise Longecity was sponsoring research. Would gladly contribute.

[kmoody]

 

- Is C60 the active component in the mixture, or is it the things that C60 may break down into outside or inside the body? Has anyone actually for sure figured out what they are actually taking? e.g. pure dissolved c60 in olive oil.

This is well supported. We do not see significant degradation of C60 in any experiments we have run. We are currently upgrading our analytical infrastructure to be able to more accurately test for trace contaminants and breakdown products, but I have not seen evidence of this being an issue.

 

 

 

- Is there any indication that C60 dissolved in olive oil is safe even after exposure to air and light? 

I am not aware of this being explicitly tested, but would be easy to do. This should fall under general stability tests for C60oo, which (so far as I am aware) have not been performed in a compliant manner. Some basic stability tests have been performed but nothing this robust. This is something my group is looking into presently and would like to do as part of C60 production under GMP if we decide to move in that direction.

 

 

 

- So basically nobody knows how C60 breaks down in the body? Does it even?

I believe the working theory on this was biliary excretion, but I haven't reviewed relevant studies in some time and want to repeat them anyways. This is part of pharmacokinetic studies we are currently planning. Our preliminary (research grade) data in mice shows substantial accumulation in several organ systems, but we have not tracked elimination from the body. We expect minimal breakdown in the body, but this has not been tested properly.

 

 

 

- Do we know if most C60 derivatives are safe?

We no nothing about the safety of C60 derivatives (others on this forum will argue with me). Our current data suggests that some forms of C60oo may indeed be highly toxic, and we are working to investigate discrepancies with our pilot data, the literature, and these new findings. My current best guess is that aggregated C60 could be highly inflammatory and may be dangerous. In 3/3 ongoing studies we are seeing trending data in the direction of a profound increase in all-cause mortality from C60oo consumption. However, no serious interpretation can occur until these studies have been concluded. I have a great deal of confidence in C60oo as a product, just not a lot of confidence in select commercial vendors. We commissioned a GRAS assessment and there is not sufficient research done to support C60 as being safe at this time. This is not to suggest that it isn't, just that not enough is known. Based on our ongoing studies there seems to be a serious issue of sourcing that needs to be figured out first and foremost.

[Major Legend]

 

 

 In 3/3 ongoing studies we are seeing trending data in the direction of a profound increase in all-cause mortality from C60oo consumption. However, no serious interpretation can occur until these studies have been concluded. I have a great deal of confidence in C60oo as a product, just not a lot of confidence in select commercial vendors. We commissioned a GRAS assessment and there is not sufficient research done to support C60 as being safe at this time. This is not to suggest that it isn't, just that not enough is known. Based on our ongoing studies there seems to be a serious issue of sourcing that needs to be figured out first and foremost.

 

Thanks for your work, this stuff is great. This really is the age of the internet.

 

"profound increase in all-cause-mortality" - am I reading that right? That means faster deaths right?  edit: Not according your graphs seem to show C60 rodents outliving other rodents - probably just too late in the night for me...

 

I am not sure I understand - are you meaning that the c60 manufacturers may be unreliable? Your experiment created its own c60 mixture correct?

Edited by Major Legend, 23 December 2015 - 10:09 PM.

[kmoody]

 

 

I am not sure I understand - are you meaning that the c60 manufacturers may be unreliable? Your experiment created its own c60 mixture correct?

I have described the current situation in full (as of about 5 minutes ago) here http://www.longecity...f-aml/?p=755406.

 

But in brief, yes.

 

For our pilot study we made C60oo in house and saw wonderful dose-dependent outcomes. When we decided to repeat the study (and start two additional studies, including a lifespan study) we did not have the ability to do QC on C60. To overcome this gap in our available infrastructure and improve the quality of the research, I chose to pay extra to purchase product from a 3rd party vendor that claimed quality assurance under robust product specifications. Over the course of the past few months, we have begun to bring our own QC online because we have an interest in continuing to study C60oo. As we have, product from the 3rd party vendor has consistently failed every single one of our tests (our in-house C60oo has passed). There are other possible explanations (variance in study design, unknown confounding variables, my pre-clinical research team and I are all incompetent) but our lead hypothesis is that this vendor's product may be responsible for these observations. If so, I do not think this is malicious. I currently think that there may be issues with aggregation or chemical interactions associated with long-term storage. Regardless, we are trying to understand what is happening and why with respect to the product itself. Assuming these trends in our mouse survival prove true, we intend to repeat ALL of our ongoing studies using fresh C60oo made in-house. Ideally, we would like to manufacture the C60oo under FDA compliant GLP standards which would include robust characterization of shelf life, storage conditions, and potential degradation products. That should do a good job of eliminating the product variable.

Edited by kmoody, 23 December 2015 - 10:20 PM.

[sensei]

I have used 2.79 grams of C60 in Olive oil from Vaughter over the course of approximately 9 months -- plus another approximately 1 gram I have made myself using 99.95% C60.

 

Once opened the VW C60OO was exposed to air.,  I did not compose my C60 in vacuum.

 

I have only had positive results including loss of gray hair, return of hair color from dark to the lighter blond of youth, loss of wrinkles, changes in eye color to that of younger etc.

 

There are several people on this board who crush and shake in olive oil bottles, and reuse - continually add for months (I did) with nothing but positive results -- after years of use.

[bixbyte]

I have used 2.79 grams of C60 in Olive oil from Vaughter over the course of approximately 9 months -- plus another approximately 1 gram I have made myself using 99.95% C60.

 

Once opened the VW C60OO was exposed to air.,  I did not compose my C60 in vacuum.

 

I have only had positive results including loss of gray hair, return of hair color from dark to the lighter blond of youth, loss of wrinkles, changes in eye color to that of younger etc.

 

There are several people on this board who crush and shake in olive oil bottles, and reuse - continually add for months (I did) with nothing but positive results -- after years of use.

 

You are giving them subjective evidence and no one can evaluate it, only accept or reject your results posted.

K Moody is doing a clinical drug study and his end point on the chart is time of death for each mouse / group.

And if his C60 mouse tests  Time of Death provides the all important statistical Significance. 

 

The problem I read is he is trying to tie in prophylactic use without actually having this physical group in his clinical drug study.

But now to compound his time of death results is the C60 purchased from Serses tested by KMoody to have quality issues?

And there are a lot of members that post about testing C60 Olive Oil as a supplement for many years.

Edited by bixbyte, 27 December 2015 - 06:41 AM.

[sensei]

 

 

The problem I read is he is trying to tie in prophylactic use without actually having this physical group in his clinical drug study.

But now to compound his time of death results is the C60 purchased from Serses tested by KMoody to have quality issues?

And there are a lot of members that post about testing C60 Olive Oil as a supplement for many years.

 

 

Frankly,

 

Any prophylactic study [cancer] in humans would take decades to complete, and would need several large cohorts to be statistically significant, and rule out confounding factors. [such as high ascorbate (multiple grams daily) and other ROS or SOD mimetics]

 

More evidence is emerging every day that epigenetics and environment are overwhelmingly the cause of cancers.

 

 

The same holds true for anti-aging.

 

However, If I can retrieve a hair that is white/gray on the end ,  and colored at the root -- that would be prima fascie evidence of a reversal of age related processes.

Edited by sensei, 27 December 2015 - 08:35 PM.

[kmoody]

 

K Moody is doing a clinical drug study and his end point on the chart is time of death for each mouse / group.

And if his C60 mouse tests  Time of Death provides the all important statistical Significance. 

 

The problem I read is he is trying to tie in prophylactic use without actually having this physical group in his clinical drug study.

But now to compound his time of death results is the C60 purchased from Serses tested by KMoody to have quality issues?

And there are a lot of members that post about testing C60 Olive Oil as a supplement for many years.

Our research is pre-clinical. A clinical drug study suggests that we are doing work in people, which is inaccurate. Just want to make sure there is no ambiguity here.

 

I am not attempting to tie prophylactic use to anything. There are prophylactic effects that can be considered due to the lifespan study, but the current data suggests there are no prophylactic benefits, or the cons dramatically outweigh the benefits by measurement of all-cause mortality.

 

I am not aware of anyone that has actually done quality control on any C60oo they have ingested otherwise I probably would not be the first one reporting on this. Human vs. mouse differences, dosing differences, sourcing differences, etc. could all account for the data. There are too many variables to control for. However, in the absence of an FDA approved phase I and post-market tracking, I thought the people consuming C60oo might want to know that we are seeing these concerning trends.

[youngandold]

Nobody knows if C60 is broken down.
But C60 is a very stable molecule. Likely it will only react with highly reactive chemicals like ROS.

Filtering, dark, air-tight storage and dim lighting when preparing seem to be highly recommended and relatively easy. Don't be so lazy.
Homemade oo seems better and cheaper than ready made.

C60 derivatives seem to be outright harmful.

[Turnbuckle]

C60 in solution forms epoxides very easily when exposed to light. Surprisingly, the researchers found that ordinary laboratory light was far more effective than UV--

 

Fullerene oxidation and clustering in solution induced by light

 

We find that visible light exposure of fullerene solutions in toluene, a good solvent, under ambient laboratory conditions results in C60 oxidation to form fullerene epoxides, and subsequently causes fullerene clustering in solution. The clusters grow with time, even in absence of further illumination, and can reach dimensions from ≈100 nm to the μm scale over ≈1 day. Static light scattering suggests that resulting aggregates are fractal, with a characteristic power law (d(f)) that increases from approximately 1.3 to 2.0 during light exposure. The clusters are bound by weak Coulombic interactions and are found to be reversible, disintegrating by mechanical agitation and thermal stress, and reforming over time...

 

For a 0.2 wt% C60 solution, we estimate that 1 h of ambient laboratory light ... exposure is sufficient to form clusters ... By contrast, prolonged UV-A exposure (26 h), even with a higher C60 concentration (0.3 wt%), did not result in significant cluster formation compared to a sample kept in the dark ...

 

 

[Major Legend]

This is my concern too. You cannot feel always feel cellular damage, remember the guy who took Radium? Even if C60 is say 20% epoxide, it could mean good effects in the short term and bad effects in the long term. This is why I have postponed my C60 experiment, until I know that I am doing it right, as of now there doesn't seem to be a standardised protocol. Given the research conducted here, it does seem like preparation method is important to whether C60 works to do good, or in the worst scenario do harm.

 

Sure this isn't ideal, but in the meantime I will just have to stick to far more conventional methods of anti aging such as exercise and antioxidants.

[Nuke]

Its good to know about these issues. I will take much more care when making C60oo from now on.

 

I have some ideas. Please share your thoughts.

1. Spray paint my Erlenmeyer flask black. It should keep light from the c60oo while mixing.

 

2. Bubble argon through the olive oil before adding the stopper. it should displace most of the oxygen, and will make a pool above the olive oil to keep the oxygen out while mixing. Grabbing a small argon cylinder it not that hard. http://za.rs-online....sories/0623186/

 

3. Keep it in the fridge after mixing. It should slow down any chemical reaction.

 

4. Only pour out 2 weeks C60oo from the mixing flask at a time, replacing the argon after each use.

 

I already do 3, and I do keep it in a dark bottle. But a pitch black bottle should be better.

Edited by Nuke, 20 April 2016 - 09:33 AM.