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Hydrogen Water as a much cheaper alternative to MK677?

hydrogen water ghrelin

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#1 aconita

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Posted 08 April 2016 - 06:30 AM


Since hydrogen water seems to provoke increased gastric production of ghrelin the implications could be quite interesting.

 

Any direct experience?

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/25649854

 


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#2 aconita

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Posted 18 April 2016 - 10:15 PM

It seems not many on this forum know much about hydrogen water which is quite weird.

 

Only mentioned twice in a totally irrelevant way.

 

Any thoughts?



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#3 Kinesis

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Posted 19 April 2016 - 03:57 AM

Likely a lot more to it than ghrelin...

https://www.ncbi.nlm...5649854/related


Edited by Kinesis, 19 April 2016 - 04:01 AM.

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#4 Junk Master

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Posted 19 April 2016 - 04:02 PM

I don't think we are all up to speed on hydrogen water.  IMO there's something about it that strikes me as perfect placebo/scam when I first heard about it.  Need to do more research.

 

Meanwhile MK77 can be pretty darn cheap if you find the right source.  I don't think it's the Holy Grail either, but in combination with other synergistic supps/rc chems...maybe.


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#5 aconita

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Posted 19 April 2016 - 04:45 PM

MK677 may cost as little as about 1 dollar a day which is not much but not little either when considering it is likely not the only supplement one takes....in the other hand hydrogen water can be almost free.

 

 

Hydrogen water research is a relatively recent thing but there are quite a good amount of solid studies and clinical trials, certainly more than what has been done about much more popular supplements discussed in this forum, C60oo for example.

 

Yes, there is much more than just ghrelin with hydrogen water but that alone makes it very worthwhile to consider.

 

More information ?

 

Here you go, this might be a good start:

 

http://www.molecular...re-information/

 

and more studies:

 

http://www.molecular...on.org/studies/

 

 


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#6 Ethic

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Posted 19 April 2016 - 05:26 PM

So in 21st century not only our cars will run on hydrogen... :)


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#7 streamlover

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Posted 30 April 2016 - 08:45 PM

I'm the guy in the video and have been drinking H2 water for about 4 months now. I was very impressed with all the studies and thought it was a no-brainer to at least try with no reported negatives and many potential benefits. I worked out this cheap method to produce because well, I'm cheap and didn't want to buy a machine or even pay for the pills for any length of time. Also, like the poster who was suspicious of a scam, I had a negative impression of most all of the water machine salespeople over the years with not much science to back up their claims and just didn't want to get into evaluating a machine.

 

My first efforts produced concentrations of H2 water around 1.0-1.5ppms and I was drinking that for about a month as I kept trying different containers with better seals to try to up the concentrations. A concentration of .7 to 1.7ppms is considered "therapeutic" (whatever that means) so I should have been in range with those concentrations. And I did notice benefits right away. The most noticeable effect was inflammatory conditions that I hardly even considered as fixable and just a natural aspect of aging (stiff back, sore knees, arthritic hands, etc.) started disappearing and were pretty much all gone in a week or so. This was not even something I had been addressing in trying this and was a pleasant surprise. What I had been hoping for was "better energy" and that did show up over time but not so much like wow, I've got all this extra energy and I have to go out jogging or go dancing but more like hey, I've been playing pickleball for 4 hours now and normally my butt would have been dragging an hour ago and I would probably be home now but I'm still going with almost as much energy as I started with. So I guess I would say I noticed more stamina rather than more immediate energy. This would carry on pretty much throughout the day with the exception that I've taken to grabbing a nap in the middle of the afternoon...maybe 30-45 minutes of pretty deep sleep. I think that's a result of sleeping less at night. I'm now getting maybe 5 hours of pretty deep sleep and then I can't seem to sleep much any more. Maybe that has something to do with the ghrelin levels getting pumped up with all the H2 water I drink. My appetite has been much better also and I've gained 15 lbs since starting this...for me, a good thing.

 

At some point with a tip from a guy who has researched this a lot I started boiling the water that goes into the brew and the concentrations immediately jumped to 2.5-3.5ppms, about double what I had been getting. (As an aside, this guy is developing a product that he claims produces super high concentrations...up to 40ppms, that should be available within the next year. Have no idea how he does it.) On drinking these batches I started noticing what seemed like enhanced mood and positive feelings about life in general. This is of course very subjective and hard to quantify but the best way I can put it is it made me happy and more optimistic about life after drinking the water for maybe an hour or so and then tapering off. I mentioned to a friend that after drinking this in the morning I'm likely to put on music, start dancing and maybe think about starting a company rather thinking about more "normal" retirement activities for the day.

 

In the past several weeks I have tapered off on my H2 water drinking for this reason: I have experienced intestinal distress bordering on diarrhea pretty much since starting this protocol and building over time. I have not wanted to go back to testing since arriving at this pretty sure way to make a good brew but maybe I'll have to if I want to keep drinking ~60-75oz of these high concentrations. Just don't feel I can continue with this constant "sour" stomach and probable poor absorption of nutrients as a result of the loose bowels. My feeling is it's a result of the high doses of Mg I'm getting using this method of generation or else possibly the un-reacted acid left in the brew after processing. If it's the Mg "overdosing" it will be difficult to correct. To get the concentrations I've been obtaining I pretty much have to put enough Malic acid and brew it for 3 hours...anything less on either count will reduce the concentration produced, and this pretty much has to produce a given amount of the Mg salt in the reaction. I originally calculated that the amounts of Mg produced would be not much more than 1 gram/day based on rod weight loss per batch but my calculations may have been off on this. Or maybe 1 gram/day is too high and builds up over time to produce these symptoms...which do match Mg "overdosing".

 

In any case, I will continue this protocol in some form and I put the video up hoping others would try it and give feedback on their experiences and possibly collaborate on improving the method of generation. If anyone has suggestions on resolving the intestinal distress, I will listen!

 

 


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#8 aconita

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Posted 30 April 2016 - 11:10 PM

Thank you Streamlover for participating to this tread!

 

Your experience is undoubtedly very helpful and your method of producing hydrogen water really brilliant.

 

About the bowel discomfort you are experiencing it seems unlikely malic acid to be the cause since it appears to eventually give constipation if in too high of a dosage.

 

http://acidpedia.org/malic_acid/

 

In the above link we can see pain reduction and energy boost as benefits from taking malic acid, is it possible, in your opinion, that some of those benefits you are experiencing are actually due by the malic acid itself rather than from the hydrogen?

 

It would be interesting to try just the malic acid and compare the effect.

 

If you are getting 1g/day of magnesium, according to your calculation, it is probably quite likely the cause of bowel discomfort since magnesium is known not to be particularly friendly in that regard.

 

Isn't 2 liters hydrogen water a day a bit much?

 

It is true that some of the studies did employ 1,5 l/day but from what I recall the benefits don't seem to be very dose related (at least to a certain degree) and lower dosages showed positive outcomes as well.

 

What are your thoughts about it, what about something like 750ml-1l/day instead?

 

Since too high magnesium supplementation may cause hypocalcemia concern should not only consider bowel health.

 

About ghrelin, it should boost HGH and some well known effects are improved hair, skin, vision, hearing, etc...did you experience any change there?

 

I am waiting for my mag rods to come in from China, as soon as I'll get them I'll start hydrogen water production and I'll be able to give inputs based on my own personal experience with it along with that of other friends too.


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#9 Irishdude

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Posted 01 May 2016 - 12:30 AM

I have started producing H2 infused water supplementation today :) I will report back after a few weeks with my results. I am following streamlovers protocol. Its easy to accomplish with flip cap beer bottles. The pressure inside the bottle is tremendous and it scares me poping open the bottle. The force was so great earlier that when I opened the bottle flip cap that is attached to the actual bottle, it blew the cap off the bottle and hit the ceiling. One thing ive noticed on day one, I seem to be farting more lol 


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#10 niner

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Posted 01 May 2016 - 03:17 AM

It seems not many on this forum know much about hydrogen water which is quite weird.

 

Only mentioned twice in a totally irrelevant way.

 

Any thoughts?

 

It's come up in various guises.  "Alkaline" or "Alkalized" water, Electrolyzed Reduced Water, and some discussion of simply inhaling H2 gas.  The field was held back by people promoting it without any understanding of what it actually was or how it worked.  This led many people to (incorrectly) believe that it was just a scam because promoters were using chemical terminology in ways that made no sense.  Thanks for the link to the Molecular Hydrogen Foundation.  They have the best presentation on this topic I've ever seen.

 

Has anyone tried simply bubbling hydrogen gas through water?  The equilibrium saturation of H2 in water at 1 atm partial pressure of H2 is 1.6 ppm.  If this were in a sealed container, it would keep for a long time.  (It better be well sealed, though, as H2 is leak-prone.)  This would take magnesium and various other chemicals out of the equation.  You'd need a source of pure H2 and appropriate hardware, which could be expensive.  Just a thought.


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#11 adamh

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Posted 01 May 2016 - 04:02 AM

Niner, that sounds like an excellent idea, I wonder why no one has mentioned it before. I was just thinking that myself reading this thread. Bubble h2 through water. Or inhaling hydrogen gas, wouldn't that do the job? I guess its not very absorbable as a gas but what ever was absorbed would go directly into the blood rather than having to be drunk, and then absorbed via the gut. 

 

I've heard so many good things about various substances, various procedures, we all have, ranging from electrical stimulation to drugs to hydrogen. Yet in many cases it turns out to be mostly placebo. I remember a few years ago oxygen pills were all the rage. I laughed at that and it turned out to be a scam. Hydrogen makes you think twice because its not naturally present in air in large amounts like oxygen but still I wonder how much is placebo?

 

Why not simply pass direct current through water, collect the hydrogen from the appropriate electrode and use that? It would be cheaper than buying tanks of hydrogen which would not be intended for consumption anyway, lol. Its easy to collect, simply place a bottle or container upside down over the electrode and collect the gas which will displace the water in the container. 

 

I don't even know where to buy hydrogen in tanks. What is it used for? Its not a welding gas, its not used medically, its a specialty gas which probably costs a bundle and pressurized tanks cost a good bit as well and the regulators are expensive. Plus its a fire hazard while your plastic jug full of h2 would burn, could go with a bang if mixed just right but is basically no more danger than a cigarette lighter. 

 

If you had a jug with hydrogen, fill it half full with water and shake it. Let it sit overnight to absorb what it can, 1 ppm should be easy to attain or even more. The waste gas from your experiment would be pure oxygen which is not bad either. Or you could simply take tokes from the hydrogen bottle and hold it in. Perhaps fill a plastic bag instead of a jug or bottle so that you could pull out the hydrogen without introducing any atmosphere.

 

I have a car battery charger, I'm just wondering what electrodes to use, perhaps order some platinum or gold wire for that? It wouldn't cost much, a gram of pure gold is only $35 or so and you would not need a whole gram. A .25gm piece of wire could be cut into 2 electrodes easily. The water would need to be distilled I would think.

 

Does anyone think this is a good project to embark on? Or should I buy hydrogen water first to see if it works for me?



#12 aconita

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Posted 01 May 2016 - 05:13 AM

Problem is that hydrogen is VERY explosive and can self ignite, therefore I am not so sure about how easy it would be to buy it.

 

Not easy to store either, it is the smallest molecule in the universe, it permeates plastic and glass as if they almost weren't there...just the container itself is no joke, usually is stored in cryogenic form (liquid) no need to say how much such a container would cost and how dangerous it would be to play around with it in a homemade environment.

 

Since it is the smallest molecule of them all it gets absorbed by the body right away, I don't think it manages to reach the guts when ingested, it probably permeate the tissues much before that.

 

One can "simply" expose himself to hydrogen and it will permeate inside all tissues, it quite likes lipids therefore mitochondrial membranes, for example, would not be spared at all.

 

But:

"Methods of Administration

There are a number of methods to consume molecular hydrogen gas (H2),1 including inhalation of H2,2 injection of H2-rich saline,3 dropping H2-rich saline into eyes,4 taking a bath in H2-rich water,5 increasing H2 production by intestinal bacteria,6 topical application,7 oral ingestion of hydrogen producing tablets,7 and simply drinking H2-rich water.8

Which method is the best?

 

Each one of these methods have a therapeutic effect. Although drinking H2-rich water doesn’t provide as many hydrogen molecules to the body as other methods, it is likely the easiest and a very effective approach.9 In fact in one study10 using a rat model of Parkinson’s disease, it was seen that drinking H2-rich water, but not inhaling 2% H2 gas or increasing intestinal H2 production via lactulose administration, was effective.10

Perhaps this is because inhaling H2 gas and H2 gas production via the bacteria gives a continuous exposure of H211 (allowing homeostasis to be achieved), but drinking H2 water gives an intermittent exposure. Indeed this10 same study showed that intermittent inhalation of 2% H2 was somewhat effective.   Another reason that drinking H2 water is important is because it allows gastric induction of ghrelin, which is mediated via activation of beta 1 adrenergic receptors.12 The consensus is that not only is drinking H2-rich water the easiest, it is often the most effective.13"

 

http://www.molecular...cular-hydrogen/

 

Electrolysis at homemade levels is not usually very efficient, it seems platinum or platinum coated electrodes are the most used, they don't last forever.

 

Bubbling hydrogen in water is cool but probably for practical reasons not very feasible at home level, no doubt it is worth to research if a smart easy way is possible.

 

Right now:

 

"Magnesium metal also reacts with water to produce hydrogen gas: [Mg + 2H2O –> H2 + Mg(OH)2].  The magnesium hydroxide (Mg(OH)2) dissociates into magnesium ions (Mg2+ ) and hydroxide ions (OH-) according to the equilibrium: Mg(OH)2 <–> Mg2+ + 2OH 24 However, the reaction is not as exothermic and thus does not carry any risk of explosion.25

This method of hydrogen-rich water production is commonly used amongst researchers  for human studies, because of it’s ease of use.13 The concentration of molecular hydrogen is generally near saturation (1.6 ppm),26 which allows the subjects to ingest greater quantities of molecular hydrogen without having to consume a copious volume of water (1 liter vs. 10 liters)."

 

I can see only a couple of problems that may play a role in the method nicely described by Streamlover in his video, the possible high amount of magnesium left in the water possibly causing too much magnesium supplementation and the container.

 

Streamlover uses glass bottles but hydrogen permeates glass and some gets lost, aluminum would be much better since doesn't permeate hydrogen but malic acid, magnesium and hot water reacting in bare aluminum might result in some undesirable outcome I suppose, aluminum bottles are usually plastic coated inside and that should solve the issue but I am not too happy with hot water and endocrine disruptors that likely would be released from the coatings.

 

Or should I buy hydrogen water first to see if it works for me? 

 

I am afraid hydrogen water is not available for sale since hydrogen doesn't like to stay in the water much, you have to make your own and drink it ASAP.

 


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#13 streamlover

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Posted 01 May 2016 - 06:22 AM

Hey, guys, nice to hear some of you are already trying this or considering it. I wish I knew how to reference other posts in comments...maybe I can get by with cut and paste for now. Thx, Aconita for the suggestions. Yes, I know I should just cut back but imo, this isn't like supplementing vitamins, minerals or drugs in that a certain amount is good but too much is bad. Based on my research with H2, more is always better...within the limitations of how much water you can drink without repercussions, of course. If there were a machine that could produce the concentrations of this method of generation, I would just buy it and always drink H2 water for my drinking water. Unfortunately, based on my cursory research, the best machines only currently get 1.0 or so ppms and there's definitely a difference in drinking this concentration compared to 3.0ppms. As far as trying Malic acid alone...I've thought about it but so far haven't wanted to take time off to do the experiment. Your comment about the hypocalcemia possibilities with too much Mg took me aback and I did see that reference on Wiki but I think that may be a mistake. Other references I checked seemed to indicate hypomagnesia could cause hypocalcemia, not too much Mg. I was concerned about the possibilities of hypermagnesemia at one point but I think that's only likely with impaired kidney function. I also found a reference posted on the Mg FB group that some EU country...maybe Greece...gets up to 3g/day of Mg in their diet...which reassured me somewhat that I could handle 1g/day. But your suggestion of cutting back on my drinking...yes, that's exactly what I've had to do. I'm now at 2 or 3 15oz'ers per day and still experiencing some discomfort, but no diarrhea at least. I'll be interested to hear your experience when you start this.

 

IrishDude, I totally get what you're saying about the pops one gets when opening the beer-brewing bottles. I've never blown one of these tops completely off the bottle but when I was testing other containers, I was using for a while Kombucha bottles with the addition of a clamp I bought to hold the top on tight. One of these exploded on me one day as I took the clamp off with glass shards flying all over the kitchen but only 2 nicking my hand. Needless to say, that was it for using that container. I actually thought I'd not use any more glass after that but the guy in the beer-brewing shop convinced me these bottles could hold 30 times the pressure generated in brewing beer so I think these will be safe. The top will let out gas before the bottle would break.

 

Adamh, yes I also wonder about how much of this is placebo and that's why I'd like to get feedback from more people doing it. (So far of 4 friends I've introduced to this, zero have continued...but I do know I have to search the world to find people as crazy as I am!) The studies are pretty convincing though (just feeding my placebo monkey!) but I'm pretty sure something good is going on here.Check out the video by Tyler LeBaron on the MHF website for lots of pretty compressed info on studies/benefits. As far as making some kind of DIY apparatus to do what the machines are trying to do...I guess I just figured if they haven't been able to accomplish it yet, then I probably wouldn't be able to without much time and money spent. Many of them already use the 2 terminals with current and collecting the H2 at one terminal, etc. Also, just bubbling the H2 through the water doesn't cause much to go into solution, which seems to be critical in getting the H2 to all parts of the body. Here's a study I ran across the other day (http://jn.nutrition....3.full.pdf html) which seems to demonstrate this. Basically it says that MUCH more H2 is created in our gut by just ingesting fructooligosaccharides, a common ingredient in probiotics, than we could ever get drinking H2 water, with resultant benefits from diffusing through the walls of the intestines and into the fat surrounding the abdominal cavity but practically no noticeable increase in plasma concentrations of H2 and no resultant distribution to other organs in the body. It's all breathed or farted out, I guess, evidently without ever entering the blood stream. So it's the amount of dissolved H2 that seems to be mainly therapeutic and that's probably also why drinking the H2 water seems to work better than just inhaling it.


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#14 Irishdude

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Posted 01 May 2016 - 02:28 PM

I am not so convinced I am losing too much H2 through the glass I am using. I think it is down to the thickness of the glass, pressure inside the bottle, temperature of the liquid inside the bottle and glass, the seal and time. Anyways, with the pop I am getting after opening the bottle, I seem to be reaching a decent amount of ppm infusion. Best thing about this is its easy peasy. Ill give it month before making any judgements on its effects on me and as I am young I should not see a huge benefit however I have been through 4 years of tremendous stress mentally and physically so lets see how it goes.

 

I worry about how much mg I am consuming. It would be nice to test it. I see aquarium tests for mg. Wonder how accurate it is.



#15 streamlover

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Posted 01 May 2016 - 02:58 PM

Irishdude,

Here was my method for measuring/guestimating Mg consumed with each batch. See if you think it's valid or if you might want to try something similar to cross-check.

 

Bought this scale on Amazon: http://www.amazon.co...ailpage_o06_s00

 

Measured total weight of rods before making a batch. After removing from container after finished, dried off rods but didn't clean them with vinegar...figured some amount of Mg would be reacted off the rods in the cleaning and distort the results. Weighed rods and subtracted from beginning weight. Got measurements ranging from 100mg up to 250mg rod loss depending on brew time. I know there is some Mg(OH) deposited on the rods from the small amount of Mg + H2O reaction that happens...the Mg + Acid reaction is the main reaction here...and that probably should be taken into account for better accuracy. But rather than worrying more about refining the accuracy of this measurement, I just decided to let my bowels be my guide for knowing when I'm getting too much Mg. Like you though, I would like to know how much Mg I'm actually supplementing with this process. I already get a fair amount in my diet and wouldn't like to go much over 1g/day if possible.



#16 Irishdude

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Posted 01 May 2016 - 03:26 PM

Irishdude,

Here was my method for measuring/guestimating Mg consumed with each batch. See if you think it's valid or if you might want to try something similar to cross-check.

 

Bought this scale on Amazon: http://www.amazon.co...ailpage_o06_s00

 

Measured total weight of rods before making a batch. After removing from container after finished, dried off rods but didn't clean them with vinegar...figured some amount of Mg would be reacted off the rods in the cleaning and distort the results. Weighed rods and subtracted from beginning weight. Got measurements ranging from 100mg up to 250mg rod loss depending on brew time. I know there is some Mg(OH) deposited on the rods from the small amount of Mg + H2O reaction that happens...the Mg + Acid reaction is the main reaction here...and that probably should be taken into account for better accuracy. But rather than worrying more about refining the accuracy of this measurement, I just decided to let my bowels be my guide for knowing when I'm getting too much Mg. Like you though, I would like to know how much Mg I'm actually supplementing with this process. I already get a fair amount in my diet and wouldn't like to go much over 1g/day if possible.

 

I was guessing you could do that alright but didnt have the scales to measure it. I am only going to drink 16 oz of this infused water a day and see how it goes. Should be fine. The quality of the rods you recommend seems to be excellent. Thank you.



#17 adamh

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Posted 01 May 2016 - 08:49 PM

OK, it seems that the magnesium rods are the easy way to go and possibly the cheapest or quickest. I am not the least bit concerned about h2 diffusing through plastic let alone glass. In theory it happens, in practice the amount is going to be negligible, perhaps not negligible using thin plastic and leaving it sit a good while. It would be like a balloon that gradually deflates.

 

The downside of mg rods is the magnesium in uncertain quantities that you consume. MG is an essential nute but too much will cause discomfort as we know. There is also a question of what impurities might be in the rods, are there other metals present in small amounts? Those rods are not meant to be consumed either, lol.

 

Aconita, the explosive properties of h2 are present but no more dangerous than a cig lighter, imo. Yes it will burn and will explode if mixed with the proper proportions of oxygen, confined and ignited. If ignited in open air it produces a flame or fireball. If confined it will indeed explode but you have to work at it. The propane in your lighter is likewise explosive but only if mixed with oxygen in correct amounts and confined. Acetylene used in welding for many years has the same properties but the main danger is starting a fire carelessly.

 

Electrolysis as I suggested is a quick and easy way to get h2. I had more trouble finding cheap electrodes than I had thought but there is no reason not to use ordinary copper for that. Copper is a mineral required by the body so if a milligram or two got into the water it would be no big deal. You don't even have to drink the water. Invert a container over the electrode and collect pure h2. If 2% is what you need, then a small plastic bag full would be more than enough for a treatment. Breath in a tiny bit of h, then a lungful of air and hold it. Keep repeating and since h diffuses so well, it should permeate the body rapidly. You could save the water since it would have some dissolved h2 in it or use the gas or both.

 

No mg or impurities to worry about when using gas. That alone makes it a high quality method, besides the fact its cheap to the point of being free. Your only real cost is buying a dc supply. Use an old accessory or phone battery charger. I have a charger for cars which will work fast. Water is not highly conductive when pure so it will take a while, a slow stream of bubbles will form and gradually fill your bag. Use water as pure as you can find, preferably distilled. If it  does diffuse out too rapidly then use glass. If you have a choice of DC supply to use, use the higher voltage because 24v will work faster than 12 or 6v. I don't recommend voltages much higher because the risk of shock goes up. Even 24v can give you a tingle if held with wet hands.

 

Since its so easy I may try this in the next few days and report back. Cant go far wrong with something free and non toxic.



#18 niner

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Posted 01 May 2016 - 09:46 PM

Problem is that hydrogen is VERY explosive and can self ignite, therefore I am not so sure about how easy it would be to buy it.

 

Not easy to store either, it is the smallest molecule in the universe, it permeates plastic and glass as if they almost weren't there...just the container itself is no joke, usually is stored in cryogenic form (liquid) no need to say how much such a container would cost and how dangerous it would be to play around with it in a homemade environment.

 

The danger of H2 gas is commonly exaggerated.   The explosive limit in air is only slightly lower than natural gas, which is used in many homes.  I'd rather work with hydrogen than butane, since hydrogen dissipates rapidly, being much lighter than air.   The Hindenburg got everyone freaked out about hydrogen, but a majority of people on the ship survived the fire.  Because of the buoyancy of H2, hydrogen fires are more survivable that fires with more typical fuels.   

 

Hydrogen and many other gases are available in small cylinders known as "lecture bottles", like this one.  They are pretty expensive, however.  One of the magnesium methods or an electrolyzer is probably the most cost-effective.

 

I've made hydrogen a variety of ways-- active metal plus acid, (e.g. zinc + HCl or Mg + various acids) or via electrolysis.  An interesting and little-known method is aluminum + sodium hydroxide solution.  It's cheap and there are no acid vapors.   I've ignited hydrogen countless times.  It's not that big of a deal.  I've never heard of hydrogen self-igniting. Something would have to provide the activation energy to ignite it.  It is a leaky gas, but it doesn't go through glass "like it isn't there".  Not in my experience, anyway. 


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#19 Irishdude

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Posted 01 May 2016 - 10:19 PM

streamlover All this talk about the mg rods has made me do a little digging on who made them. Looking up MGA, one can easily be deceived into thinking its the toy making/entertainment company in hong kong. I saw that the distributor was peakcargo and this linked me to mga metallurgical limited, based in hong kong which was incorporated in 2012. I wouldnt be as comfortable with them making the rods as I would with the other MGA even with their 99.99% APPROX purity claim. They sell dremel drill bits and that that is the only thing I can see from a google search.

 

What do you guys think?

 

 

Edit: Found more items that they sell through peakcargo on ebay, just look at the pictures in each ebay ad to see MGA Metallurgy

Least they seem to be making all sorts of metallic stuff. Feel uneasy about them though.


Edited by Irishdude, 01 May 2016 - 10:42 PM.

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#20 adamh

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Posted 02 May 2016 - 01:14 AM

Irishdude, that was one of the things that bothered me too. If there is even a trace of lead, cadmium or other toxic substances that will negate the positive effects of the h2. Thats why I'm interested in electrolysis to produce my own h and elimitate that possibility. Everyone seems to brag about having near 100% purity but usually those claims are exaggerated or outright lies. Even if the bars are 99.99% pure as they claim, what is the other junk? Not that I believe the claim without proof.

 

I'm thinking breathing it is the way to go. One thing you could do if so inclined is to produce enough that you could have a little hose coming over to your easy chair and just breath it as it comes out. Maybe have it pointed toward you with a fan blowing it over or toke on it as you feel inclined. Few people are as much do it yourselfers as me so they will want an overpriced unit which still should be cheap. Wait till china finds out there is a market for it, they will be hawking them for $19.99 I just hope this is not another overhyped fad that leads to the inevitable disappointment.

 

With gas there is no possibility of lead or other toxic junk. Just don't put salt in the water or you could get chlorine or other nasties. There may be an electrolyte that is safe to use but I'll let the more informed people tell us about that.


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#21 aconita

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Posted 02 May 2016 - 01:47 AM

Hydrogen poses a number of hazards to human safety, from potential detonations and fires when mixed with air to being an asphyxiant in its pure, oxygen-free form.[123] In addition, liquid hydrogen is a cryogen and presents dangers (such as frostbite) associated with very cold liquids.[124] Hydrogen dissolves in many metals, and, in addition to leaking out, may have adverse effects on them, such as hydrogen embrittlement,[125] leading to cracks and explosions.[126] Hydrogen gas leaking into external air may spontaneously ignite. Moreover, hydrogen fire, while being extremely hot, is almost invisible, and thus can lead to accidental burns.[127]

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen

 

Some literature here:

 

http://www.hse.gov.u...rrpdf/rr615.pdf

 

https://h2tools.org/lessons

 

Because hydrogen gas is the smallest molecule in the universe, it will also be able to diffuse through all plastic and many other containers. Hydrogen, therefore, has the highest effusion rate of all gases.

 

http://www.molecular...lubility-of-h2/

 

Can't find anymore exact data but leaking from glass is not negligible (at least from the common glass bottle) especially under pressure and high temperature, of course glass it is a viable container as Streamlover clearly demonstrates in his video but it is a matter of optimization, after 3 hours in the freezer losses are forcing to employ more magnesium and reaction in order to keep hydrogen levels high enough, a more efficient storage means less magnesium.  


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#22 hotbit

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Posted 02 May 2016 - 10:06 AM

Hydrogen gas leaking into external air may spontaneously ignite.

 

 

True, but you will need high H2 concentration (2:1 to 5:1  H2 to O2 ratio) and temp ~ 570C for spontaneous self ignition to occur. In room temperature you need a spark or open flame to start the reaction. As it can gather under the ceiling / roof, well ventilated room would be advised for home experiments.

 

Car batteries produce plenty of hydrogen, but they don't go in flames / detonate too often.

 

I think weak bottles that can burst sending shards around (caused by high pressure) might be a bigger health risk than flame / detonation.


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#23 streamlover

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Posted 02 May 2016 - 02:46 PM

For those of you that want to simply get H2 gas into your body...gut, abdominal cavity, even lungs...a much simpler method might be just to ingest a FOS-containing probiotic such as Jarrow's Inulin FOS. This will generate a significant amount of H2 gas in the gut (see the study I linked above) and should be equivalent to breathing it in since the amounts measured in the breath are pretty significant in this study. And it does seem to show benefits of reducing inflammation in the fat tissues it reaches in the abdominal cavity. Seems it would also probably reduce inflammation in the lungs. But as this study also indicates, only low concentrations of H2 are detected in arterial blood from this plentiful supply of H2 so diffusion throughout the body just won't be that significant with this method of generation, and imo (by inference) breathing it in. That's why many studies have implied that dissolved H2 in water is more efficient for getting it to distant inflammation sites and therefore shows more therapeutic potential. In particular, this method of ingestion seems to be used more often when investigating the nootropic benefits of H2, one of my main reasons for pursuing this protocol.


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#24 Irishdude

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Posted 02 May 2016 - 03:00 PM

adamh To ease my fears  I investigated the common ways for magnesium to be refined and what impurities are usually present.

 

"The most common metal impurities in pure magnesium are iron, copper, nickel, manganese, zinc, aluminum, silicon, calcium, and sodium. Intermetallic particles of aluminum, manganese, iron, and silicon have also been identified." (R)

 

Who knows though what be in it for sure. Does anyone have access to equipment to test the composition of the metal for me? I would express post a sample to them and pay them a small stipend for their trouble. :ph34r:

 

Edit: may have a friend who may do it for me at work.


Edited by Irishdude, 02 May 2016 - 03:04 PM.


#25 aconita

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Posted 02 May 2016 - 09:40 PM

That would be awesome!

 

I am a bit concerned too about impurities in mag.

 

Interesting would be to know if those impurities will get in solution or deposit on the bottom  considering the 3 hours resting in the freezer. .

 

Inorganic silicon should just be excreted without any active biological consequence, iron, copper, manganese, zinc and sodium if in tiny amounts should not represent a concern or be even beneficial, about nickel and aluminum I am not so sure.

 

Am I right?

 

About other ways of getting hydrogen in the body it seems the oral route as the best, maybe because intermittent supply achieves results that a slower and more constant supply doesn't.

 

"Each one of these methods have a therapeutic effect. Although drinking H2-rich water doesn’t provide as many hydrogen molecules to the body as other methods, it is likely the easiest and a very effective approach.9 In fact in one study10 using a rat model of Parkinson’s disease, it was seen that drinking H2-rich water, but not inhaling 2% H2 gas or increasing intestinal H2 production via lactulose administration, was effective.10

Perhaps this is because inhaling H2 gas and H2 gas production via the bacteria gives a continuous exposure of H211 (allowing homeostasis to be achieved), but drinking H2 water gives an intermittent exposure. Indeed this10 same study showed that intermittent inhalation of 2% H2 was somewhat effective.   Another reason that drinking H2 water is important is because it allows gastric induction of ghrelin, which is mediated via activation of beta 1 adrenergic receptors.12 The consensus is that not only is drinking H2-rich water the easiest, it is often the most effective.13"

 

http://www.molecular...cular-hydrogen/

 

It is getting a bit off topic but hydrogen self ignition is not fully understood and under certain circumstances might happen with no flames or high temperatures, when it is sprayed for example, as it would likely happen in a leaky container under pressure.

 

It is just to point out that at homemade levels to tinker with hydrogen containers and self production might not be a smart choice, unless one really knows what is doing, of course.

 

In Italy, where I live, oxygen bottles can't be refilled without medical prescription (with the happiness of deep water divers) since it is now considered a drug, can't imagine asking for buying hydrogen bottles!!! :)

 



#26 streamlover

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Posted 03 May 2016 - 12:34 AM

You all have reminded me of the considerations I had about Mg rod contaminants when I first started. I had dropped them pretty much based on the attitude of this guy who's developing the H2 product and who has probably done more good research using professional chemists on this production process than anyone and probably has drunk more H2 water at high concentrations also. Well, when this guy was advising me on how to refine this process, he suggested I use Mg powder that they sell for fireworks.(!) He said it would give much higher concentrations and be easier to measure the Mg used.He was more concerned with the levels of Mg I was ingesting and was the one to warn me about hypermagnesemia. I didn't take his suggestion about using the powder. I also intend to verify his Mg source before trying his product if he happens to use it in his product. But I guess it somewhat alleviated my concerns about impurities in the rods when he was so unconcerned...maybe too easily.

 

In any case, since I still drink a lot of this stuff, I've decided to have a batch tested using this test kit: http://www.karlabs.c...stkit/kit90.htm

I use distilled water so whatever I have in my tap won't affect the test and I will report back when I get the results. I will use my standard brewing procedure and the MGA rods and let it go 3 hours. (Since making the video I've cut the malic acid back to 1.5g to try to reduce the Mg malate produced so I will use 1.5g for that input.)


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#27 aconita

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Posted 03 May 2016 - 07:12 AM

Thanks Streamlover!

 

All this will surely lead to a great optimization of the process and to a safer outcome, it will result to more people taking hydrogen water, more experiences shared and further comprehension of the whole thing to great benefit for everyone.



#28 Irishdude

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Posted 03 May 2016 - 10:40 AM

streamlover you hero!! PM me your paypal and ill help throw you 10$ towards the test.



#29 adamh

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Posted 03 May 2016 - 12:56 PM

The dangers of exploding hydrogen have been greatly exaggerated. How many of you have a cig lighter in your home or even in your pocket? That is a greater risk because its under pressure and a faulty valve could mean a release of flammable gas.

 

As for the statements that h2 is more easily absorbed or possibly more effective via water than gas, I remain very skeptical of that. Our lungs are designed to diffuse gases into our blood stream and vice versa. Not only oxygen and co2 but many other waste gases are expelled that way and small amounts of nitrogen and other gases are absorbed. 

 

Its nice that mg is fairly pure or at least does not usually contain lead or other highly toxic metals. I'm not worried about the iron, copper and so on. Does any form of mg produce h when put into water? I had never heard of that, is it a slow process? I'm still leaning toward doing my electrolysis experiment. I will definitely not pay big money to have h2 water shipped to me that might have already lost all its h2 before I get it. Its either mg or electricity.

 

Who else has been using it for some time? It seems like if it did all the wonderful things we hear about that it would have been discovered long ago. I remain open to the possibility it is a break through but also keeping in mind the benefits may be very slight and not worth the effort. However, the studies shown indicate some benefit so it must not be pure placebo. If you never try anything new you miss out on a lot. I've found cures or treatments for many conditions that way ranging from sinus problems to itching to nerve discomfort and other things too. Stuff the doctors either don't know about or won't tell you.

 

I have all the materials, I just need to find the time and the motivation.


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#30 streamlover

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Posted 03 May 2016 - 03:41 PM

Hey Irishdude, Thanks a lot for the offer but I'll get it. Should have done it when I first started as it has been in the back of my mind. Also, I think I will let the brew go overnight since I sometimes do that when I won't have time in the morning. Should get a worst case measure that way too.


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