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Does this sound like excess Glutamate & Acetylcholine?

glutamate acetylcholine ants

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#1 recreant

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Posted 30 July 2017 - 06:55 AM


Hi,

 

I'm pretty new to the forum and am glad to have found such an informative place. This year marks my 20th year of dealing with some profound mental issues and I've recently decided to do some research into what's been going on in my head. I realize a lot of this is stuff I should be saying to a psychiatrist, but first I'm trying to fix myself up enough to be able to actually go to one. Apologies in advance for the long, rambling story that takes too long to get to the point. I've also provided surplus apologies at the end just in case.

 

So, first things first, I think the foundation for my problems was set when I was a child. I had a cold, unaffectionate mother who had a weird tendency to punish me publicly. She would hit me with a belt in front of her friend, frequently laugh at me in front of others, kick me in the back so I'd fall face first into the cement if I was walking too slow to the school bus stop, etc. I also suspect that she became a Jehova's Witness when I was 7 solely to avoid having to buy me the '89 Batman Batcave playset for Christmas. During all of this I was also bullied for years at school by a kid with no eyebrows and still don't understand why it wasn't the other way around. Anyway, between these two jackasses there was no real safe place for me.

 

I became a shy kid, but it was when I developed acne at age 15 that the floodgates of emotional pain opened. I quickly developed Body Dysmorphic Disorder and, not surprisingly, extreme Social Anxiety. Previous to this I had done very well in elementary school - I was a self-motivated achiever, valedictorian, and recipient of a scholarship. But once the BDD kicked in around 1997 while I was in highschool I started skipping more classes than I was attending and I eventually dropped out. All this emotional turmoil led me to a startling discovery that I would now have to start listening to Korn and Marilyn Manson and put Nietzsche quotes in my MSN messenger name. It was a very taxing time.

 

I eventually became housebound and would pay my younger sister to walk two blocks to the corner store for me to pick up my staples of pre-cooked bacon and chocolate milk because I just couldn't do it. I also couldn't get a job and would spend my days playing sad synth music on a keyboard by myself until one day I accidentally spilled a can of coke on it and an ant colony formed inside. The ants would come out anytime I hit the keys and my music progressively became fast-paced and staccato as my fingers tried to avoid them. I began to resent the ants for how they'd changed me as an artist and eventually put the keyboard in a garbage bag and, fearing the ants would somehow get back inside my house, threw it over the fence of a nearby school while under the cloak of darkness.

 

Eventually I mellowed out enough to venture to the corner store myself and even grew the courage to initially resist the extended warranty option when purchasing electronics. It now takes the salesperson pushing the warranty on me twice before I fold under the pressure like a cheap lawn chair. Despite these advances, I haven't looked a passing bystander in the eye in almost 20 years. Small talk still kills me and I'm a dud at parties unless I drink. If I don't drink, everyone around me pairs into groups so that I'm the only one left out. It's always been a depressing phenomenon but at least now I find it somewhat amusing as I marvel at how everyone unconsciously excludes me - like a social immune system forms and isolates that one cancerous quiet dude. It doesn't matter if I promise not to bring up Battlestar Galactica again, no one wants to get involved with me. If I do drink, however, I become a chatterbox and easily talk with anyone. The only problem is I wake up the next day to pictures of me having done stupid stuff I have no recollection of, like carrying street cats home on the bus or showing everyone that I'm wearing Spanx.

 

Anyway, a list of most of my issues:

 

- Body Dysmorphic Disorder
- Social Anxiety
- Flat affect
- Pessimistic
- Rumination
- Racing thoughts at night leading to insomnia
- Introverted
- Depressed
- Socially isolated
- Easily overwhelmed by public places/loud noises
- Anhedonia
- Poor eye contact
- Easily startled
- Brain Fog
- Feelings of hopelessness
- Random phobias
- Irritability
- Alcohol dependency
- Harshly critical
- lousy memory (especially forgetful of people's names)
- Frequent suicidal thoughts
- Annoyingly high sex drive
- Self destructive
- Hearing problems (have trouble deciphering words spoken in social situations but can hear fine otherwise)

 

Based on my symptoms I've come to suspect an excess of glutamate and acetylcholine. I haven't been researching neurotransmitters for too long but these two seem like potential culprits.

 

I'd say glutamate almost feels confirmed to me at this point because of an incident I once had while taking L-Glutamine 7 years ago. I had been taking it for the better part of a year because it was the best supplement to fight the chronic scalp folliculitis I've had for 17 years that was caused by taking the nightmarish acne drug Accutane. Ever since Accutane, ingestion of choline or betaine gives me raging, bloody folliculitis somehow... Anyway, I wasn't taking a high dose of L-Glutamine and so one night I decided to double the amount, which was still well below what I'd seen other people taking and shouldn't have been a problem. The next morning, however, I fell over in my shower 5 times thanks to my balance being completely off. That same morning I developed speech problems - I was stuttering and slurring and had trouble pronouncing certain words like "guitar". Also that same morning I developed powerful involuntary muscle twitches in my arms and legs that took a year to fade away. It felt exactly like how I'd imagine a Multiple Sclerosis attack would feel. My mother has MS and I worry I'm in the same boat. I was a kid when I found out she had it after she decided to reveal her diagnosis during a family get together by screaming at me in front of everyone that I was the cause of her illness. So that was cool way to find out.

 

As for acetylcholine, I feel like I have a lot of symptoms that match that as well. And I believe I've read that elevated glutamate will result in elevated acetylcholine. To test things out I briefly tried taking CDP-Choline to see if it would make things worse but chickened out after taking only a single pill. A few hours after taking it I had a particularly bad conversation with my landlord's wife. Awkward conversations are just a part of my daily life but this was worse than usual. Very stilted and I kept mishearing her. I got her daughter's name and her dog's name mixed up and I didn't know how to end the conversation so after a prolonged silence I simply shrugged and said, "Well, I should start walking to the bus station now. Bye." and walked away, whistling. The fact that there is no bus station within walking distance coupled with the fact I can't whistle made it awkward. Also, for the next three days after taking that single pill, anytime I would bend over to pick up a sock or Skittles off the floor, all this fluid would just drain right out of my nose and hit the floor. It was odd and I lost any desire to experiment further.

 

Before clueing in on these two neurotransmitters I tried out Rhodiola Rosea and Ashwagandha but both of them actually made my social anxiety worse and caused the right side of my thyroid to hurt. I'm now taking L-Lysine and L-Theanine which seem to help lower my social anxiety. Now when I'm ordering food at Arbys I don't feel compelled to stare at the overhead menu to avoid eye contact with the cashier out of social fear - only out of shame.

 

So yeah, I'm wondering if anyone has been in a similar boat? Does it sound like I'm on the right track with these neurotransmitters?

 

Any comments would be greatly appreciated and apologies if this was long!


 



#2 ThreeKings12341

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Posted 30 July 2017 - 08:19 AM

hey there ! , was nice to read your story

 

heres my story, also have bdd --> http://www.longecity...rgently-needed/

 

what really helped me for bdd somehow was N-acetylcysteine + nicotine, maybe nac without would have helped but i dont know.. im not smoking since then and nac doesnt work like that, but i have changed since 2016 in a more positive way :) , also wearing trendy glasses gives my bdd really theee peace i needed

 

greetings and all the best


Edited by ThreeKings12341, 30 July 2017 - 08:20 AM.


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#3 hdl_1

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Posted 30 July 2017 - 02:53 PM

I believe recognizing and accepting what has happened in the past is a huge step to get better. I suggest you start by destressing with usual adaptogens herbs, ashwagandha/bacopa monierri/l-theanine/lions's mane/others. Add in N-Acetylcysteine, some magnesium glycinate, a good B complex and take it from here. You will eventually get better enough to research other stuff to complement your recovery process.

Sent from my SM-G850W using Tapatalk

#4 recreant

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Posted 30 July 2017 - 07:11 PM

hey there ! , was nice to read your story

 

heres my story, also have bdd --> http://www.longecity...rgently-needed/

 

what really helped me for bdd somehow was N-acetylcysteine + nicotine, maybe nac without would have helped but i dont know.. im not smoking since then and nac doesnt work like that, but i have changed since 2016 in a more positive way :) , also wearing trendy glasses gives my bdd really theee peace i needed

 

greetings and all the best

 

Thanks for the response.

 

NAC is interesting and I'll look into it further. It takes me a while to identify useful supplements since most of them have some unwanted effects like raising acetylcholine which almost everything does.

 

I actually wear sunglasses every single time I step outside which helps me function around people, I guess because it makes me feel hidden. Wearing them is also great for covertly staring at boobs or taking a nap while my girlfriend recaps her day at the office.
 



#5 recreant

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Posted 30 July 2017 - 07:54 PM

I believe recognizing and accepting what has happened in the past is a huge step to get better. I suggest you start by destressing with usual adaptogens herbs, ashwagandha/bacopa monierri/l-theanine/lions's mane/others. Add in N-Acetylcysteine, some magnesium glycinate, a good B complex and take it from here. You will eventually get better enough to research other stuff to complement your recovery process.

Sent from my SM-G850W using Tapatalk

 

Interesting that you've both mentioned NAC. I've tried magnesium glycinate and found it reduced my anxiety and then decided to just start using glycine by itself and that seemed to be pretty good... but then I read that if you're prone to high glutamate that glycine will be excitatory and I stopped. I started to wonder if the improvement with glycine was just the placebo affect anyway. Although I was very excited for a bit when I discovered a studies on glycine improving Body Dysmorphic Disorder and symptoms of Schizophrenia like flat affect which I have.

 

While I've had most of my symptoms since I was 15, I gained the flat affect after taking Accutane at 17. Ever since then I tend to have what people would call a stern, emotionless presence. Now, it's not that I lack emotions, but I have a lot of trouble expressing them, even when I really try.

The first time I noticed it was when I was at a hairdresser after about 6 months of Accutane. I wasn't really looking at myself in the mirror much at all while having my hair cut because of the BDD. My hairdresser was hot and making a lot of jokes and I was laughing and giggling along - or so I thought. I became a bit confused when she kept asking me if I was feeling okay or was tired after a long day. I didn't know why she was asking me about it until I finally glimpsed myself in the mirror and I had this sort of flat, exasperated expression on my face. And when I would "laugh" at something she'd say, it was more akin to a sad exhalation of air. It was a bit like being in the Twilight Zone. Who was this jackass staring back at me? There was clearly a rift between the emotions I assumed I was conveying and what I really was.

 

Oh and one of many things I failed to mention earlier: when I drink alcohol, not only does my social fear completely evaporate but I get flooded with warm emotions where I want to reach out and connect with people. This is very different than from how I usually am.
 



#6 hdl_1

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Posted 31 July 2017 - 03:28 PM

You shouldn't write off glycine if it improves your symptoms. Glycine is a co agonist in NMDA activation (along with glutamate) and taken by itself is quite safe. Alcohol, besides acting as a GABA agonist and NMDA antagonist, also influences dopamine. However, it doesn't mean that you necessarly have excess glutamate. It is possible that it is only a NMDA dysfunction. NMDA and dopamine pathway is also interlinked. It is therefore possible that glycine helps with the NMDA activation which in turn modulates the dopamine pathway giving you the good feeling.
NAC modulates the glutamatergic pathway and is a usefull supplemement in many psychiatric disorders.

#7 jack black

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Posted 31 July 2017 - 04:53 PM

Regarding the first post (why can't it be quoted, BTW???), that's a huge laundry list of problems, I bet you could qualify for any psych disease going by the checklists.

One thing that caught my eye was alcohol use. you have to understand it hurts you long term big time. See more discussion here: http://www.longecity...ation/?p=822940

 

 

I gained the flat affect after taking Accutane. Ever since then I tend to have what people would call a stern, emotionless presence. Now, it's not that I lack emotions, but I have a lot of trouble expressing them, even when I really try.

 

 

 

It's my understanding accutane does damage brains: http://www.huffingto..._b_1314233.html

look into brain regeneration, increasing BDNF, etc.


Edited by jack black, 31 July 2017 - 04:54 PM.


#8 ThreeKings12341

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Posted 31 July 2017 - 08:56 PM

omg i googled accutane, and i also took it when i was younger.. so maybe that was the cause of my emotional blunting  2... :-/

 

jack how do i incrase bdnf for that? and what about brain regeneration?

 

have people cured from accutane flat affect, does someone know?



#9 jack black

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Posted 31 July 2017 - 09:32 PM

 

 

jack how do i incrase bdnf for that?

 

https://cse.google.c...bdnf&gsc.page=1
 



#10 ThreeKings12341

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Posted 31 July 2017 - 09:52 PM

 

 

 

jack how do i incrase bdnf for that?

 

https://cse.google.c...bdnf&gsc.page=1
 

 

 

thank you



#11 Mind_Paralysis

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Posted 01 August 2017 - 10:27 AM

HMM!!

 

Man, this Accutane... I've seen a couple of people with issues from that - you guys should totally have mentioned using that earlier! Now then... I believe Accutane causes damage to the Hippocampus? If so, then NSI-189 could be a useful compound, I believe.

 

(curious how that works btw... Accutane is a cortisol-antagonist of some kind, I believe? yet it causes damage to the hippocampus! which is strange, because overload of cortisol, from prolonged stress such as in Occupational Burnout, have been connected to damage to the hippocampus - as such, it would appear as if both too low, and too high cortisol causes damage to the hippocampus. interesting that...)



#12 recreant

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Posted 01 August 2017 - 03:44 PM

You shouldn't write off glycine if it improves your symptoms. Glycine is a co agonist in NMDA activation (along with glutamate) and taken by itself is quite safe. Alcohol, besides acting as a GABA agonist and NMDA antagonist, also influences dopamine. However, it doesn't mean that you necessarly have excess glutamate. It is possible that it is only a NMDA dysfunction. NMDA and dopamine pathway is also interlinked. It is therefore possible that glycine helps with the NMDA activation which in turn modulates the dopamine pathway giving you the good feeling.
NAC modulates the glutamatergic pathway and is a usefull supplemement in many psychiatric disorders.

I may try glycine again. One reason I stopped taking it was because I didn't want to take it at the same time as L-theanine because I didn't want to be taking both an NMDA agonist and antagonist at the same time... but now I've been reading that l-theanine might also be an agonist... hmmm. It also always seemed like people with Social Anxiety benefited from NMDA antagonists and the fact that alcohol removes my social fear just makes it seem like antagonism might be the route to take. Maybe I'll try out both agonists and antagonists and compare how I feel.

 

Regarding the first post (why can't it be quoted, BTW???), that's a huge laundry list of problems, I bet you could qualify for any psych disease going by the checklists.

One thing that caught my eye was alcohol use. you have to understand it hurts you long term big time. See more discussion here: http://www.longecity...ation/?p=822940

 

 

I gained the flat affect after taking Accutane. Ever since then I tend to have what people would call a stern, emotionless presence. Now, it's not that I lack emotions, but I have a lot of trouble expressing them, even when I really try.

 

 

 

It's my understanding accutane does damage brains: http://www.huffingto..._b_1314233.html

look into brain regeneration, increasing BDNF, etc.

Yeah I'm going to be cutting down on my alcohol consumption. Throughout my 20s I only drank maybe twice a year, but then starting about 3 years ago I started to drink a lot more - like twice a week. That change from 3 times a year to around 100 seems to have had an affect on my health. Ever since Accutane I've had intestinal issues but after 3 years of increased drinking my intestinal problems worsened to the point where I was losing a lot of blood while going to the washroom. :) I was diagnosed with colitis in March. I don't know for sure if it was the alcohol's fault but that's mainly the only thing that changed in my life before my health deteriorated. Also, weirdly, my sex drive went a bit through the roof ever since I started drinking more but maybe that's a coincidence.

 



 

HMM!!

 

Man, this Accutane... I've seen a couple of people with issues from that - you guys should totally have mentioned using that earlier! Now then... I believe Accutane causes damage to the Hippocampus? If so, then NSI-189 could be a useful compound, I believe.

 

(curious how that works btw... Accutane is a cortisol-antagonist of some kind, I believe? yet it causes damage to the hippocampus! which is strange, because overload of cortisol, from prolonged stress such as in Occupational Burnout, have been connected to damage to the hippocampus - as such, it would appear as if both too low, and too high cortisol causes damage to the hippocampus. interesting that...)

I should mention though that most of my mental issues were present before I ever took any Accutane. I just think that Accutane perhaps made existing problems worse and added a few new ones.



#13 Brock

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Posted 02 August 2017 - 02:07 AM

Magnesium bisglycinate is ideal for anxiety. You can't overdo magnesium either since it leaves your body so easily. Natural calm makes a great magnesium drink that works through ionic activation when hot water is added. Being the fastest mineral depleted in your body magnesium is crucial for times of muscle strain as well. 

 

I believe recognizing and accepting what has happened in the past is a huge step to get better. I suggest you start by destressing with usual adaptogens herbs, ashwagandha/bacopa monierri/l-theanine/lions's mane/others. Add in N-Acetylcysteine, some magnesium glycinate, a good B complex and take it from here. You will eventually get better enough to research other stuff to complement your recovery process.

Sent from my SM-G850W using Tapatalk

 

Interesting that you've both mentioned NAC. I've tried magnesium glycinate and found it reduced my anxiety and then decided to just start using glycine by itself and that seemed to be pretty good... but then I read that if you're prone to high glutamate that glycine will be excitatory and I stopped. I started to wonder if the improvement with glycine was just the placebo affect anyway. Although I was very excited for a bit when I discovered a studies on glycine improving Body Dysmorphic Disorder and symptoms of Schizophrenia like flat affect which I have.

 

While I've had most of my symptoms since I was 15, I gained the flat affect after taking Accutane at 17. Ever since then I tend to have what people would call a stern, emotionless presence. Now, it's not that I lack emotions, but I have a lot of trouble expressing them, even when I really try.

The first time I noticed it was when I was at a hairdresser after about 6 months of Accutane. I wasn't really looking at myself in the mirror much at all while having my hair cut because of the BDD. My hairdresser was hot and making a lot of jokes and I was laughing and giggling along - or so I thought. I became a bit confused when she kept asking me if I was feeling okay or was tired after a long day. I didn't know why she was asking me about it until I finally glimpsed myself in the mirror and I had this sort of flat, exasperated expression on my face. And when I would "laugh" at something she'd say, it was more akin to a sad exhalation of air. It was a bit like being in the Twilight Zone. Who was this jackass staring back at me? There was clearly a rift between the emotions I assumed I was conveying and what I really was.

 

Oh and one of many things I failed to mention earlier: when I drink alcohol, not only does my social fear completely evaporate but I get flooded with warm emotions where I want to reach out and connect with people. This is very different than from how I usually am.
 

 

 



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#14 jack black

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Posted 02 August 2017 - 02:40 AM

 

 

(curious how that works btw... Accutane is a cortisol-antagonist of some kind, I believe? yet it causes damage to the hippocampus! which is strange, because overload of cortisol, from prolonged stress such as in Occupational Burnout, have been connected to damage to the hippocampus - as such, it would appear as if both too low, and too high cortisol causes damage to the hippocampus. interesting that...)

 

according to this, it's more complicated: http://www.longecity...-it-reversible/







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