17 replies to this topic

[KKWinOK]

Hi, I’m new the forum and I would appreciate some input/advice.  If you’d rather not read the history, skip down to the bottom for my questions.  I’m a 38-year-old male and in fairly good health.  In 2012 or 2013, things went in the tank for me…it’s like someone turned a light switch off.  At the time, I started doing some research and had a suspicion it was hypothyroidism and hypogonadism.  I saw a physician’s assistant who helped me with thyroid medication and supplements then later tried testosterone injections.  However, those things only helped marginally and then I quit.  My body recovered from that but still had fatigue issues and discovered that maybe I have adrenal fatigue.  I started taking high quality supplements like herbal adrenal, vitamin C, vitamin B complex, vitamin D with K2, probiotics, multivitamin, fish oil, DIM and herbal testosterone support (cycled these two).  I responded very well for about a year and a half with this but was still sensitive to exercise.  It’s like I could only handle just day-to-day things, otherwise I would get tired and crash but was a massive improvement.  Before all of this I could get over 8 hours of sleep and still fall asleep at work.  Earlier this year, I started going downhill again and did more research.  I discovered that “adrenal fatigue” may not be the problem after all and figured out that I think I have a dopamine deficiency.  The reasons I think that are because of some online tests I took that were question/answer based regarding possible neurotransmitter imbalances.  It confirmed things I’ve suffered from for years even before the fatigue like low testosterone, delayed ejaculation, low libido, possible ADD, inability to concentrate for long periods of time, etc.  Poor diet didn’t help either.  At my peak weight, I was at 217 pounds and now I’m around 180 and would like to be around 160ish.  After some experimentation, I have added some supplements to my stack to include: CDP Choline, Echinacea Astragalus, Ubiquinol with PQQ, L-Theanine, N-Acetyl Tyrosine, Vitamin B1, Zinc/Copper mix, Vitamin A, D-Ribose (on work out days), L-Glutamine (to repair leaky gut), Trans Resveratrol, and Collagen (for leaky gut too).  I have to say that the one supplement that has had the biggest impact has been CDP Choline.  I started out taking one a day then upped it to two.  It was a huge difference in a very short period of time!  I went back down to 1 a day and started going back downhill again so I went back up to two.  CDP Choline is what has enabled me to exercise strenuously without crashing (I like to jog).  Before CDP Choline, I would exercise and come home and take a nap before going to bed.  I could still take a nap now but it’s much easier not to.  Along with this I started a modified paleo like diet but I still eat things I shouldn’t like on Fridays at lunch.  But for the most part, I’m trying to eat whole foods.  So, I really do think it comes down to low dopamine for me.  I still get tired even on this stack and get occasional burning eyes but I’m able to function more normally and exercise.  But, I would like to optimize this as much as possible.  Oh, against my better judgment, I tried oral pregnenolone too…bad idea.  I got spacy and dizzy.  With all of that stated, below are my questions:

 

1) With CDP Choline, does your body build up a tolerance?

 

2) Because CDP Choline seems to help me be normal, will I always have to take it or will my brain heal?

 

3) I still occasionally get tired even with all of this...should I make adjustments to the CDP Choline (I take 250mg @ 2 per day by Jarrow formulas)

 

4) What advice do you all have of things I could take or quit taking that could optimize brain health for what seems to be low dopamine?

 

Thank you for the input!

Edited by KKWinOK, 01 September 2017 - 12:14 AM.

[gamesguru]

unfortunately it doesn't have any lasting effect on modulation or expression, so yes it needs to be taken constantly.  considering something with lasting effects, like ginkgo or green tea.  they also sometimes make you tired because of complex effects on dopamine and serotonin, but this is usually on days where you are already wakeful and it has anti-stimulant effects (perhaps adhd specific).  cdp has a very pronounced cholinergic effect, the same loss of energy and peculiar muscle pains that are reported with bacopa, but with cdp (or other choline sources) the tolerance concerns are greater still (than bacopa)

 

it might take you a few years to figure out something that works for you, but consider that the mathematicians spent nearly 100 years on the Basel problem before the Swiss thinker Leonhard Euler finally solved it c.1730

[KKWinOK]

I think I have read that large doses of CDP Choline, over time, will rebuild more dopamine receptors.  Does anyone know if this is true?  Does that mean I could eventually stop taking CDP Choline?

Edited by KKWinOK, 06 September 2017 - 10:14 PM.

[RedStaR]

I think I have read that large doses of CDP Choline, over time, will rebuild more dopamine receptors.  Does anyone know if this is true?  Does that mean I could eventually stop taking CDP Choline?

 

Acetyl-choline may stimulate dopamine release if you are deficient, I am not sure if supplementing with precursors for choline or dopamine would act similar to pharmaceutical neurotransmitter releasers.

 

With that said, I do not see how more dopamine in the synaptic cleft would upregulate D2R.

[KKWinOK]

As a follow-up, I think I have overdone it by stacking CDP Choline, N Acetyl Tyrosine, L Theanine, and Acetyl L Carnitine. I had some undesirable side effects like almost uncontrollable libido (where before it was basically non-existent). At this time in my life, I do not want that. Anyway, my goal is to try to be normal...no brain fog, no fatigue, ability to exercise strenuously, etc.

With that stated, what recommendations do you have to overcome what seems to be low acetylcholine levels or low dopamine?

Also, with CDP Choline alone, it seems like I have to take it about every 6 hours. Is there a way to have an extended release effect to where I don't experience a roller coaster (to prevent brain fog in between doses)? Should I try something less mild like sunflower lecithin in an effort to produce as natural of an effect as possible?

Thank you!

Edited by KKWinOK, 08 September 2017 - 11:37 PM.

[KKWinOK]

I think I may have answered some of my own questions.  However, I had a nasty side-effect that I did not want from CDP Choline.  It gave me an insanely high libido...almost uncontrollable.  I have stopped taking it and it seems to be going back to normal levels.  I think there's a report online that someone had a similar effect.  Anyway, here's my question:  If I had that effect on CDP Choline, will I have the same effect with Choline Bitartrate?  The only reason I'm supplementing with choline is because it appears that I have a deficiency.  It has helped me be "normal" for the most part.

[Kinesis]

I think I have read that large doses of CDP Choline, over time, will rebuild more dopamine receptors. Does anyone know if this is true? Does that mean I could eventually stop taking CDP Choline?

I have read the same thing, but know of nothing independently to confirm or refute it.

http://onlinelibrary...B15CB12E.f02t02

I'm aware of no studies examining how long this effect may last (in general long term studies are expensive and not often done when the economic stakes aren’t high), but would speculate that after some time the effect would subside. On the other hand, so might whatever ailed you to begin with.

You could reduce or discontinue from time to time and see how it works out.
 

As a follow-up, I think I have overdone it by stacking CDP Choline, N Acetyl Tyrosine, L Theanine, and Acetyl L Carnitine. I had some undesirable side effects like almost uncontrollable libido (where before it was basically non-existent). At this time in my life, I do not want that. Anyway, my goal is to try to be normal...no brain fog, no fatigue, ability to exercise strenuously, etc.

With that stated, what recommendations do you have to overcome what seems to be low acetylcholine levels or low dopamine?

Also, with CDP Choline alone, it seems like I have to take it about every 6 hours. Is there a way to have an extended release effect to where I don't experience a roller coaster (to prevent brain fog in between doses)? Should I try something less mild like sunflower lecithin in an effort to produce as natural of an effect as possible?

Thank you!

At least three of those (CDP choline, acetyltyrosine, and acetylcarnitine) are stimulating for many people. Nothing wrong with taking all three if you want to, but if you want to do that, do take it into account when sizing your dosages. Lower amounts make sense especially when combining multiple agents with overlapping effects. Rotation is one way to do this.

I'm not aware of any extended release CDP choline formulations on the market. Of course that means there just aren't any ... ;-)
 

I think I may have answered some of my own questions. However, I had a nasty side-effect that I did not want from CDP Choline. It gave me an insanely high libido...almost uncontrollable. I have stopped taking it and it seems to be going back to normal levels. I think there's a report online that someone had a similar effect. Anyway, here's my question: If I had that effect on CDP Choline, will I have the same effect with Choline Bitartrate? The only reason I'm supplementing with choline is because it appears that I have a deficiency. It has helped me be "normal" for the most part.

Was this when you took it in conjunction with the other compounds? I've used CDP choline on and off for years without such a side effect, although it's possible that may be partly due to having grown accustomed to taking it. Possibly that might subside with time. A lower dose might help, too. But note that when you take CDP choline, you’re not just taking choline. CDP choline (aka citicoline) also contains cytidine, a nuclecleoside. Cytidine is metabolised to uridine, another nucleoside that is the subject of several Longecity threads itself. In short, it’s likely that at least some of the effect you experience from taking CDP choline is due to cytidine-uridine.

https://en.wikipedia...wiki/Citicoline

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cytidine

So while no one could guarantee you that choline bitartrate or other forms of choline wouldn’t have similar effect, the chances are decent enough. Far as I know choline supplements always come in the form of a salt or as part of a larger molecule, but often the rest of the compound is more or less neutral itself, such as in the case of choline bitartrate or choline citrate. L-Alpha glycerylphosphorylcholine (alpha GPC) - basically phosphatidylcholine without the fatty acids - would be another option.

It’s a two edged sword, though ... possibly some of the benefit you’re getting from CDP choline isn’t the choline per se, but dopaminergic or other effects due to cytidine-uridine. Just like the side effects. Because of individual variations in biochemistry, the only way to know for sure would be to try other forms and see. They are all commonly taken and I think of them mainly as nutritional supplements as opposed to drugs (choline and cytidine are found in foods). If you’re looking for combined cholinergic and dopaminergic support, though, citcoline is a one stop shop.

Edited by Kinesis, 18 September 2017 - 07:05 PM.

[KKWinOK]

Since discontinuing CDP choline weeks ago, I seem to have lasting effects and way more sensitivity to things that boost acetylcholine or dopamine (or both maybe).  I stopped taking tyrosine, choline bitartrate, lecithin, and I think I will stop taking high omega 3 fish oil.  These things make my libido almost uncontrollable.  I don't understand it all but I'm wondering if CDP choline altered my brain in some way.  If true, will this effect eventually wear off in the coming months?

 

EDIT: According to this post: http://www.longecity...-fog-permanent/, perhaps maybe my issues is too much acetylcholine...I don't know.  Does this seem like it to you?  Does Benadryl help with this?

 

Thanks!

Edited by KKWinOK, 26 September 2017 - 01:28 AM.

[gamesguru]

no Benadryl doesn't help with too much acetylcholine.  not unless becoming a total zombie is your goal.  what helps is cutting out the 5 unnecessary cholinergic supplements you mentioned.  excessive choline turnover is tied to depression and confusion.  furthermore, it is abundant in a variety of common foods and it is present in virtually all foods at some level.  deficiencies in first world nations are rare, if not totally unheard of.

 

a right balance of choline to dopamine can be achieved, and indeed shot beyond, by mere supplementation with cholinergic herbs.  given the intimidate link between common neurotransmitters, many herbs will fit the bill: bacopa, ginkgo, huperzine of course, but also stuff you wouldn't be sure about unless you were a true book worm, like blueberries, gotu kola, apiginin and glycine.  even plain old ALCAR is probably a better choice here, and chono's post from 2010 already seems conclusive of this fact.

 

vitamin d and quercetin are known antagonists which have been reported by some to restore cholinergic sensitivity after periods of excessive stimulations, not like i'm pointing any fingers here or anything tho..

[Moltic]

Hi KKWinOK, I just wanted to let you know that I had a similar experience to you. My brain was sluggish for many years after a period of using too much marijuana, adderall, and other substances. Taking CDP-Choline for a couple months helped me to regain my brain function, it was like a miracle drug for me. However, if I take it now I get many of the same symptoms that you describe, such as extreme libido and over-sensitivity. It would be interesting to know what causes these effects for some of us, and not for others.

[KKWinOK]

Hi Moltic, thank you for responding.  Your experience sounds similar to mine.  I have found that anything cholinergic, even mildly like fish oil, seems to raise my libido.  I have been off of the CDP Choline for about a month or so now as well as anything that cause a dopamine response except what's already in my B complex and multivitamin (i.e. L tyrosine).  It's way more manageable but I'm still dealing with the underlying fatigue I had beforehand.  This may sound dumb but I wish I could reverse the effects of CDP Choline.  I have no idea why the effects seem to last so long after cessation.  How long have you been off of the CDP Choline?

[Moltic]

Interesting, I didn't know that fish oil was cholinergic. I take fish oil on occasion and don't get any extreme or even noticeable effects from it, unlike CDP-choline. What are the negative effects that you're experiencing and why do you want to reverse it? I currently have been off of it for ~2 months but I still take it from time to time.

[medievil]

I'm very sceptical that anything besides amisulpiride, bromantine, stimulants with meantime, bpap, that harmaline analogue and d deprenyl would work for your condition, I simply haven't seen any convincing anecdotes that weak sups alleviate actual dopaminergic issues.

[Moltic]

I'm very sceptical that anything besides amisulpiride, bromantine, stimulants with meantime, bpap, that harmaline analogue and d deprenyl would work for your condition, I simply haven't seen any convincing anecdotes that weak sups alleviate actual dopaminergic issues.

 

From the way you are typing I suspect you are having a lot of cognitive issues.

[KKWinOK]

Hi Moltic. I think I remember reading that CDP Choline can repair brain cells, depending on what you read. It is speculation on my part that CDP Choline caused a lasting effect that makes me sensitive to cholinergic substances like fish oil for example. I’ve taken fish oil for 2 or 3 years pretty consistently without any libido changes. Now, if I take just one, the fatigue lifts (where it had little to no effect before) but I get a small bump in libido. It also seems to cause some sort of parasomnia, which is a whole other topic. Anyway, I think I remember reading a post somewhere of a guy who took CDP Choline in high doses for a while (I don’t remember how much or how long) and he stated that even after cessation, it took months to recover from whatever side effects he experienced. What I would like to see is to go back to being less sensitive to cholinergic supplements.

[Kinesis]

Any reference citations to support the claim that fish oil is cholinergic?

[Mind_Paralysis]

Any reference citations to support the claim that fish oil is cholinergic?

 

As I recall it... there's data which shows it raising acetylcholine production, by being an essential part of the enzyme-chain, apparently. Can't quite recall - there are references though.
 

[truboy]

Hi Moltic. I think I remember reading that CDP Choline can repair brain cells, depending on what you read. It is speculation on my part that CDP Choline caused a lasting effect that makes me sensitive to cholinergic substances like fish oil for example. I’ve taken fish oil for 2 or 3 years pretty consistently without any libido changes. Now, if I take just one, the fatigue lifts (where it had little to no effect before) but I get a small bump in libido. It also seems to cause some sort of parasomnia, which is a whole other topic. Anyway, I think I remember reading a post somewhere of a guy who took CDP Choline in high doses for a while (I don’t remember how much or how long) and he stated that even after cessation, it took months to recover from whatever side effects he experienced. What I would like to see is to go back to being less sensitive to cholinergic supplements.

 

KKWinOK, how are experiments going? Are you still taking CDP Choline?