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#1 Quaray

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Posted 07 September 2017 - 03:58 PM


I'm a 28 years old guy looking to improve my health and longevity. I have done some research and found these supplements.

 

  1. Fish oil 4 capsules daily 720 mg EPA and 480 mg DPA
  2. Q10 2 capsules daily 200mg
  3. D-vitamin 1 capsule daily 38µg
  4. Pycnogenol 4 capsules daily 160mg
  5. Multivitamin 1 capsule daily

I bought them all from the brand pharma nord. My questions are many. Did I overlook some supplements? What else can I do? How far is science from any major breakthroughs on longevity? Any general advices?

 

 

 


Edited by Quaray, 07 September 2017 - 04:47 PM.


#2 albedo

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Posted 07 September 2017 - 04:38 PM

I would recommend you research continuously for the evidence but also for the evidence of the contrary or uselessness. Watch your bio markers, e.g Vit D., research a lot on aging on this Forum and elsewhere, support SENS, look at the possibility of cryonics and in particular if you are science minded why not making of fighting aging your career.



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#3 joelcairo

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Posted 07 September 2017 - 05:28 PM

You might be going a bit heavy on the fish oil if you're taking 4g daily. Maintaining a good omega 3:6 ratio is a great idea, but it's probably better to do it via diet. D3 looks good. I'm not a fan of multivitamins, as they may contain some of things you really don't want to supplement (alpha tocopherol, beta carotene, iron, maybe copper, maybe B vitamins). The evidence is at best mixed on these things.


Edited by joelcairo, 07 September 2017 - 05:29 PM.


#4 Dorian Grey

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Posted 07 September 2017 - 05:36 PM

At 4 caps/fish oil per day, I would add some Vitamin-E to prevent oxidation.  Fish oil is a highly oxidizable lipid and Vitamin-E is the bodies primary lipid antioxidant.  

 

Some manufactures add small amounts of E to their fish oil supplements, but this is simply to keep the product fresh, & not to prevent oxidation within the body.  I would actually prefer to use a fish oil formulated with some E to prevent oxidation, as this can occur in the product once the bottle has been opened daily for a week or more.  

 

I would also take at least 200IU of "natural" Vitamin-E to reduce metabolic oxidation in the body.  It should say natural on the label and "d-alpha tocopherol" on the back.  "dl" alpha tocopherol is synthetic and far less desirable.  Natural Vitamin-E with Mixed Tocopherols is best.  This will contain beta & gamma toco's as well as the primary alpha component.  



#5 Quaray

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Posted 07 September 2017 - 07:32 PM

I would recommend you research continuously for the evidence but also for the evidence of the contrary or uselessness. Watch your bio markers, e.g Vit D., research a lot on aging on this Forum and elsewhere, support SENS, look at the possibility of cryonics and in particular if you are science minded why not making of fighting aging your career.

 

What do you mean with bio markers? How do I watch it?

 

You might be going a bit heavy on the fish oil if you're taking 4g daily. Maintaining a good omega 3:6 ratio is a great idea, but it's probably better to do it via diet. D3 looks good. I'm not a fan of multivitamins, as they may contain some of things you really don't want to supplement (alpha tocopherol, beta carotene, iron, maybe copper, maybe B vitamins). The evidence is at best mixed on these things.

 

I did some research and from what I found, it's best to get between 250-500 mg epa/dha daily. I guess I could take one less capsule and get 540 mg epa and 360 mg dha.

 

At 4 caps/fish oil per day, I would add some Vitamin-E to prevent oxidation.  Fish oil is a highly oxidizable lipid and Vitamin-E is the bodies primary lipid antioxidant.  

 

Some manufactures add small amounts of E to their fish oil supplements, but this is simply to keep the product fresh, & not to prevent oxidation within the body.  I would actually prefer to use a fish oil formulated with some E to prevent oxidation, as this can occur in the product once the bottle has been opened daily for a week or more.  

 

I would also take at least 200IU of "natural" Vitamin-E to reduce metabolic oxidation in the body.  It should say natural on the label and "d-alpha tocopherol" on the back.  "dl" alpha tocopherol is synthetic and far less desirable.  Natural Vitamin-E with Mixed Tocopherols is best.  This will contain beta & gamma toco's as well as the primary alpha component.  

 

The only other fish oil I found was this, with smaller capsules and added vitamin b. I didn't find any fish oil with vitamin e. I found this natural vitamin e capsule but it seems like a pretty big dosis.
 


Edited by Quaray, 07 September 2017 - 07:40 PM.


#6 joelcairo

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Posted 07 September 2017 - 07:46 PM

I thought you meant each capsule of fish oil contained 720 mg EPA and 480 mg DPA. If that's the total, that doesn't seem excessive to me at all. I reiterate my opinion that alpha tocopherol is not a good choice. Mixed tocopherols combined with mixed tocotrienols, maybe but I'm still not sure it is necessary.


Edited by joelcairo, 07 September 2017 - 07:49 PM.


#7 albedo

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Posted 07 September 2017 - 09:30 PM

 

I would recommend you research continuously for the evidence but also for the evidence of the contrary or uselessness. Watch your bio markers, e.g Vit D., research a lot on aging on this Forum and elsewhere, support SENS, look at the possibility of cryonics and in particular if you are science minded why not making fighting aging your career?

 

What do you mean with bio markers? How do I watch it?

...

 

Get from an understanding doctor a good baseline of blood and urine laboratory tests (it is good to start at 28) and repeat regularly. You can do them at LEF or maybe use the list as guideline. Keep a record. You might add eventually a genetic test (e.g. 23andme). Both might be useful to guide your research and supplementation.


Edited by albedo, 07 September 2017 - 09:31 PM.


#8 MikeDC

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Posted 08 September 2017 - 01:30 AM

Eat healthy low calorie diet, moderate exercise, use olive oil for cooking, get enough sleep, are probably more important than supplements at your age. I would start 125mg Niagen at age 35.
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#9 Dorian Grey

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Posted 08 September 2017 - 05:56 AM

The Nord Bio-E Vitamin looks good.  525 IU/day isn't outrageously high, but you could take this every other day if you like.  

 

Vitamin-E is the most commonly deficient (over 90%) essential nutrient in the standard diet (in America anyway), and diets high in Omega-3 (fish oil) require adequate Vitamin-E to avoid oxidation.  

 

See attached pdf

 

 

Attached Files


Edited by Dorian Grey, 08 September 2017 - 05:59 AM.


#10 Quaray

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Posted 08 September 2017 - 05:34 PM

I'm not a fan of multivitamins, as they may contain some of things you really don't want to supplement (alpha tocopherol, beta carotene, iron, maybe copper, maybe B vitamins). The evidence is at best mixed on these things.

 

I did some research on multivits, and you are right, the results are mixed. The reason why I'm taking a multivitamin is mostly because it contains selenium, which my doctor has recommended me to combine with Q10.

 

Get from an understanding doctor a good baseline of blood and urine laboratory tests (it is good to start at 28) and repeat regularly. You can do them at LEF or maybe use the list as guideline. Keep a record. You might add eventually a genetic test (e.g. 23andme). Both might be useful to guide your research and supplementation.

 

 

Will keep that in mind.

 

Eat healthy low calorie diet, moderate exercise, use olive oil for cooking, get enough sleep, are probably more important than supplements at your age. I would start 125mg Niagen at age 35.

 

These are all good advices as well, I am planning on doing moderate exercise eventually, only difference is that I use rapseed oil for cooking since I've read that its better than olive oil, not sure though.

 

P.S What would be the right dosis of pycnegenol? The package says 1 tablet (40mg) daily, the UK version says 2 tablets twice daily, some expert suggests between 100-200mg daily. It's somewhat confusing.



#11 Dorian Grey

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Posted 09 September 2017 - 05:02 AM

I'm not familiar with pycnegenol, but I'm a big believer in low doses in everything I supplement.  More isn't always better!  

 

This crossed my mind as I saw you were taking quite a bit of fish oil.  I believe with many supplements, "less is more".  

 

Researchers often use fairly high doses in their studies, as they hope to establish a statistically significant response and effect.  

 

Whether or not these high doses are wise for long term supplementation is something to consider.  I prefer to err on the side of caution.  



#12 Quaray

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Posted 09 September 2017 - 02:40 PM

Pycnegenol from what I understand is a safe supplement with lots of benefits. I take it with some of my other supplements for a healthy blood pressure. Some research suggests that it also has some anti aging benefits.I just don't really know how much to take since the opinions on how much pycnegenol to take daily are widespread. As for the fish oil, i take 4 capsules daily. If i go lower than 3 capsules then I won't get the benefits from 250/500 mg dpa/dha daily, so that's something I want to avoid doing. I did some research on vitamin e supplements. It doesn't look too good. Some research suggests that it can have to opposite effect of life extension, but as far as I understand it only counts for large doses of more than 200 ui daily.


Edited by Quaray, 09 September 2017 - 03:05 PM.


#13 MikeDC

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Posted 09 September 2017 - 03:27 PM

https://www.ncbi.nlm...from=pycnogenol

I don't like supplements that are not natural to our body. Low dose multivitamins are fine. I only take ubiquinol and Niagen. Both exist in our body.

#14 Dorian Grey

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Posted 09 September 2017 - 05:00 PM

Pycnegenol from what I understand is a safe supplement with lots of benefits. I take it with some of my other supplements for a healthy blood pressure. Some research suggests that it also has some anti aging benefits.I just don't really know how much to take since the opinions on how much pycnegenol to take daily are widespread. As for the fish oil, i take 4 capsules daily. If i go lower than 3 capsules then I won't get the benefits from 250/500 mg dpa/dha daily, so that's something I want to avoid doing. I did some research on vitamin e supplements. It doesn't look too good. Some research suggests that it can have to opposite effect of life extension, but as far as I understand it only counts for large doses of more than 200 ui daily.

 

The demonization of Vitamin-E is unfortunate as it is an "essential nutrient" and over 90% don't get adequate amounts from diet alone.  

 

I'll agree high doses of synthetic E may be unwise, but it's interesting Dr Weil's bottom line is that modest supplementation of natural E with mixed tocopherols may still be wise.  This most likely is particularly true in those with diets high in highly oxidizable omega-3's and other polyunsaturated oils.  

 

One thing you might notice taking fish oil without E is an increase in body odor.  Oxidized lipids can produce stinky malondialdehyde and 2-Nonenal.  If this occurs, it is an indication you're having oxidation issues.  


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#15 Quaray

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Posted 09 September 2017 - 07:11 PM

One thing you might notice taking fish oil without E is an increase in body odor.  Oxidized lipids can produce stinky malondialdehyde and 2-Nonenal.  If this occurs, it is an indication you're having oxidation issues.

 

I haven't experienced anything such yet, the only thing I got from the bio-marine fish oil is a small boost in general well-being, which might be because it helps to lower blood pressure a bit. But other than that, no side effects really.

 

 

The demonization of Vitamin-E is unfortunate as it is an "essential nutrient" and over 90% don't get adequate amounts from diet alone.  

 

I'll agree high doses of synthetic E may be unwise, but it's interesting Dr Weil's bottom line is that modest supplementation of natural E with mixed tocopherols may still be wise.  This most likely is particularly true in those with diets high in highly oxidizable omega-3's and other polyunsaturated oils. 

 

 

I spent some more time reading about vitamin-e, and some praise it and even claims that it has anti-aging benefits, some warns against taking it (especially in a dosis of more than 200 ui). It is very confusing when scientists and researchers are contradicting themselves like this. But I will problably consider taking it, but definitely not the 525 ui capsules from pharma nord, as that seems like way too much.

 

That being said, I found some supplements with garlic which I might add to my collection, since I don't use much garlic for my cooking and eating raw garlic causes my stomach to get upset. I'm also not sure if I should take the multivitamin, as I generally eat healthy and variated foods (wholegrain, dark chocolate, fish, vegetables and fruit, any particular healthy foods I should include?). I also found this multivitamin with green tea and ginseng, what do you guys think?


Edited by Quaray, 09 September 2017 - 07:14 PM.


#16 ironfistx

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Posted 09 September 2017 - 09:30 PM

You might be going a bit heavy on the fish oil if you're taking 4g daily. Maintaining a good omega 3:6 ratio is a great idea, but it's probably better to do it via diet. D3 looks good. I'm not a fan of multivitamins, as they may contain some of things you really don't want to supplement (alpha tocopherol, beta carotene, iron, maybe copper, maybe B vitamins). The evidence is at best mixed on these things.


Why would you not want to supplement beta carotene?

#17 joelcairo

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Posted 11 September 2017 - 05:38 PM

 

You might be going a bit heavy on the fish oil if you're taking 4g daily. Maintaining a good omega 3:6 ratio is a great idea, but it's probably better to do it via diet. D3 looks good. I'm not a fan of multivitamins, as they may contain some of things you really don't want to supplement (alpha tocopherol, beta carotene, iron, maybe copper, maybe B vitamins). The evidence is at best mixed on these things.


Why would you not want to supplement beta carotene?

 

 

I don't want to get into doing a whole bunch of research and providing citations, but to answer your question...

 

1. I'm not sure it is the best form of vitamin A to be taking, as it has some biological properties that vitamin A does not.

 

2. I don't think any studies have shown benefits in humans of beta carotene supplementation (other than possibly correcting extreme deficiency). I have read this assertion and as far as I know it is true, but of course there are a lot of studies in the world and there could be some exceptions.

 

3. Multiple studies have implicated beta carotene supplements of promoting cancer under some circumstances. They even (marginally) increase overall human mortality, so I just don't see the case for using them.

 

This only applies to supplementation. High beta carotene intake or serum beta carotene levels would be a separate matter, as this would be strongly associated with consumption of healthy foods.



#18 Quaray

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Posted 14 September 2017 - 03:16 PM

I just got my garlic supplements. I'm looking forward to try them out. I just did a check on the multivitamins, and they already contain vitamin-e, so no reason to take additional vitamin e unless someone has something else to say?



#19 Dorian Grey

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Posted 14 September 2017 - 03:51 PM

Multivitamins typically contain the dry form/synthetic Vitamin-E.  Synthetic-E would be listed as "dl" alpha tocopherol.  The natural form is "d" alpha tocopherol.  

 

In most debates about E, it is argued studies showing adverse effects from E were associated with the synthetic form, and modest supplementation of natural E (particularly when mixed tocopherols are included) is most likely free from adverse effects and beneficial.  

 

For those taking large amounts of fish oil and/or diets high in polyunsaturated oils, I expect any form of E would be better than living with a deficiency.



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#20 albedo

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Posted 14 September 2017 - 08:06 PM

There are associative studies where particular risk factors and diseases are associated with specific genetic polymorphisms. In particular low vitamin E status is associated to waist circumference when looking e.g. at rs2301241 in the TXN gene (see Table 1 in the following review and reference therein):

 

Attached File  TXN.PNG   6.32KB   0 downloads

 

Ramos-lopez O, Milagro FI, Allayee H, et al. Guide for Current Nutrigenetic, Nutrigenomic, and Nutriepigenetic Approaches for Precision Nutrition Involving the Prevention and Management of Chronic Diseases Associated with Obesity. J Nutrigenet Nutrigenomics. 2017;10(1-2):43-62.

 

"...In addition, it is important to note that Vitamin E is protective for non-alcoholic fatty liver disease [52]; therefore our data also suggest that subjects with AO should increase their vitamin E intake levels to help with this problem, although this is more important for those with the rs2301241 (TXN) TT or the rs740603 (COMT) GG genotype. Taking this idea further, by genotyping AO subjects it may be possible to identify a subpopulation of higher-risk allele carriers for which vitamin E supplementation might be beneficial and perhaps protective. However before reaching this conclusion more definitive tests in other groups and populations with different levels of vitamin E intake, as well as studies in different animal models of AO or obesity, will be required; finally, this hypothesis should be tested in prospective studies in order to confirm any effects of increased vitamin E intake...."

 

Mansego ML, De marco G, Ivorra C, et al. The nutrigenetic influence of the interaction between dietary vitamin E and TXN and COMT gene polymorphisms on waist circumference: a case control study. J Transl Med. 2015;13:286.

 

So, though association is not causation, should you be homozygous in the risk allele (T in the case of rs2301241) you could consider measuring your levels of Vitamin E and maybe add an extra dose to your diet.


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