Why Die? A Beginner's Guide to Living Forever By Herb Bowie - As the title suggest, this is a good intro to immortality. A real look into immortality, and a good book for the unintroduced.
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Posted 26 June 2003 - 02:58 PM
Posted 26 June 2003 - 04:37 PM
Posted 19 December 2003 - 03:54 PM
I must disagree. This book is grounded in common sense (for the most part). Although it does contain some questionable elements, I believe that (overall) it can still serve as a good intro to the feasibility and desirability of living forever in this world.ocsrazor: There are very few books on the subject that I would tell people not to read, but this is one of them. It has an extremely high crap to content ratio.
I would have to agree with this opinion. This book contains many stimulating ideas for discussion, especially for those new to the immortalist viewpoint, and even for the seasoned immortalist who wants to stimulate her/his thinking on some aspect of living forever in this world.BJKlein: the philosophical aspects of the book are quite good, in my opinion.. and I'd recommend the book on these grounds alone, especially to a non-technical audience.
Posted 19 December 2003 - 08:19 PM
Hi BJ,
I was posting another book to this section and noticed you had this in here. There are very few books on the subject that I would tell people not to read, but this is one of them. It has an extremely high crap to content ratio
Best,
Peter
Posted 19 December 2003 - 08:21 PM
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Posted 19 December 2003 - 09:21 PM
Unless you have been really been paying attention to scientific progress in the relevant fields over the last few years and thinking hard about where it might lead us the assumption that death is an inevitability is actually pretty understandable. All you have to look at is the historical precedent.
I do agree with you though, that the assumption of death's immutability is so deeply engrained in most people that it is almost immune to evidence to the contrary.
However what springs to mind is the old platitude about extraordinary claims needing to be backed up with extraordinary evidence. To suggest that the current generation of humanity can avoid the fate of the millions who have walked the earth before us is clearly a VERY extraordinary claim. All of us here at imminst are also taking a great personal risk by emotionally investing in such a possibility. The final years of Ponce De Leon must have been bitter ones indeed.
It will Joe and Jane Average will require a GREAT DEAL more evidence before they are prepared to overturn their existing worldviews for what they may quite reasonably conclude to be merely a mirage.
Posted 19 December 2003 - 09:26 PM
Hi BJ,
I was posting another book to this section and noticed you had this in here. There are very few books on the subject that I would tell people not to read, but this is one of them. It has an extremely high crap to content ratio
Best,
Peter
Posted 19 December 2003 - 09:34 PM
However what springs to mind is the old platitude about extraordinary claims needing to be backed up with extraordinary evidence. To suggest that the current generation of humanity can avoid the fate of the millions who have walked the earth before us is clearly a VERY extraordinary claim. All of us here at imminst are also taking a great personal risk by emotionally investing in such a possibility.
Posted 20 December 2003 - 01:33 AM
Yes, there's better flow here. More precisely (grammatically) ...Lazarus Long: I like it Soph but I prefer the wording:
I hereby declare death to be real, not necessary but final, and certainly not inevitable.
It flows more and the nuance is more precise don't you think?
Posted 20 December 2003 - 01:46 AM
This, to me, is an overstatement.thefirstimmortal: Peter overall is correct, there is a high crap to content ratio,
I'd be interested in knowing where you think the book gets flaky ... and the reasons why. It is true that the author taps into new age ideas and ideas that appear to have religious overtones, but I think he succeeds (for the most part) in keeping them within a materialist and naturalistic framework.at time the book gets flaky and if you only have a chance to read less than 10 books a year, this is one to steer clear of.
I think this comment does a disservice to both the book and the author. The author was an editor of a magazine on the prospect of immortality for six years, and did a lot to spread "the good news" about this prospect. The book and the author cannot be dismissed so easily, and I recommend both as a good introduction for the lay reader.If your exhaustively data mining however, you search for the best memes where ever the source, and sometimes you have to move tons of dirt to get to a few good memes.
Edited by Sophianic, 20 December 2003 - 01:29 PM.
Posted 20 December 2003 - 01:58 AM
Not just scientific progress ~ but the rate of progress is accelerating (a la Kurzweil). This latter point is even more important than the former.Utnapishtim: Unless you have been really been paying attention to scientific progress in the relevant fields over the last few years and thinking hard about where it might lead us the assumption that death is an inevitability is actually pretty understandable. All you have to look at is the historical precedent.
Bold, yes, but not extraordinary. Not if you understand (a) the progress; and (b) the conservative estimate of 20,000 years of progress in the 21st century.To suggest that the current generation of humanity can avoid the fate of the millions who have walked the earth before us is clearly a VERY extraordinary claim.
Any emotional investment requires an element of risk. For myself, I harbor the expectation that I will never die, but I also understand and appreciate that I may die tomorrow quite unexpectedly.All of us here at imminst are also taking a great personal risk by emotionally investing in such a possibility. The final years of Ponce De Leon must have been bitter ones indeed.
I somehow doubt that Joe and Jane Average will require any evidence. If seeing is believing, they'll be ready to join the parade when the time comes.Joe and Jane Average will require a GREAT DEAL more evidence before they are prepared to overturn their existing worldviews for what they may quite reasonably conclude to be merely a mirage.
Posted 20 December 2003 - 03:44 PM
It may be.This, to me, is an overstatement.
It's in the new age ideas that are sprinkled through the book. That's why I think Peter's claim has some validity. I'm mean the whole rebirthing thing made my eyes glaze over. Also, the subject matter was more about immortalism, which isn't quite the same as physical immortality.I'd be interested in knowing where you think the book gets flaky ... and the reasons why. It is true that the author taps into new age ideas and ideas that appear to have religious overtones, but I think he succeeds (for the most part) in keeping them within a materialist and naturalistic framework.
I think this comment does a disservice to both the book and the author. The author was an editor of a magazine on the prospect of immortality for six years, and did a lot to spread "the good news" about this prospect. The book and the author cannot be dismissed so easily, and I recommend both as a good introduction for the lay reader.
Posted 20 December 2003 - 07:31 PM
More succinctly ...
I hereby declare death to be real, but not necessary ~ final, but not inevitable.
I prefer this version because it links lack of necessity with reality ~ and links finality with lack of inevitability ~ without sounding too confident. The break between 'necessary' and 'final' also lends greater emphasis to the term 'final.'
Posted 20 December 2003 - 09:38 PM
The author was an editor of a magazine on the prospect of immortality for six years, and did a lot to spread "the good news" about this prospect. The book and the author cannot be dismissed so easily, and I recommend both as a good introduction for the lay reader.
Posted 21 December 2003 - 01:35 PM
A comment like 'a high crap to content ratio,' and agreement with said comment, is tantamount to a dismissal. But I can appreciate your concern with the re-birthing issue. People associated with this movement have made some outrageous claims (e.g., immortal yogis who have lived for hundreds or thousands of years, some before Christ). It's claims like these that cast doubt.thefirstimmortal: I'm not dismissing the book, or the author ... But to someone who doesn't read much, or is just sorta looking into the idea of immortality, I really think the rebirthing issue is going to cast serious doubt about the route to immortality.
At first, you expressed genuine enthusiasm, but then I got the impression that you just wanted to exploit what little value you could find in the book while discarding the rest. What may appear to be 'crap' can often, with more study, yield some very interesting gems. If we "throw the baby out with the bathwater," we miss opportunities to create a more nuanced picture of what we seek.thefirstimmortal: ...and I think you are focusing too much on my agreement with Peter on one facet of the book, because in the main, I was supporting your position that there was many a pearl to be found in this read.
Posted 21 December 2003 - 01:40 PM
I appreciate the feedback. I intend to use my declaration as a reminder of what's essential in my study of death.That's fine and I agree actually on both counts ...
Posted 21 December 2003 - 01:50 PM
I had to do a little digging, but I found the first six issues of Forever Alive (Lite) in the e-text.org archives. Forever Alive, edited by Herb Bowie, was published by People Forever International from 1989 to 1995 and is of definite historical interest to immortalists. A note to Bruce: with the appropriate permission, these might merit an archive at ImmInst.thefirstimmortal: I would love to read that material Sophianic, if you could guide me to it.
Edited by Sophianic, 21 December 2003 - 02:40 PM.
Posted 21 December 2003 - 05:18 PM
It's those outrageous memes that are in the book that qualify as crap, and just because a book has some crap in it, doesn't mean that it should be dismissed but those rebirthing claims are hard for a fence sitter to overcome imo.A comment like 'a high crap to content ratio,' and agreement with said comment, is tantamount to a dismissal. But I can appreciate your concern with the re-birthing issue. People associated with this movement have made some outrageous claims (e.g., immortal yogis who have lived for hundreds or thousands of years, some before Christ). It's claims like these that cast doubt.
At first, you expressed genuine enthusiasm, but then I got the impression that you just wanted to exploit what little value you could find in the book while discarding the rest. What may appear to be 'crap' can often, with more study, yield some very interesting gems. If we "throw the baby out with the bathwater," we miss opportunities to create a more nuanced picture of what we seek.
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