15 replies to this topic

[Shady909]

Hello everyone,
I've been looking over the forum for a while and learned some valuable things. I've noticed that when I try to incorporate K2-MK7 into my regimen cuts/scrapes take longer to clot. My gums usually don't bleed much at all during flossing but when I use K2 there seems to be an excessive amount of bleeding.

This is the exact opposite of the purpose of vitamin k2. I was wondering if I had an allergic reaction, taking too much, or there was reaction with another supplement I'm taking.

Here's the current regimen:

Morning:
Now Foods Men's Multivitamin
Schiff Vitamin D3 5000 UI (Vitamin D 25-OH level at 49)
Nutrex Astaxanthin 4mg
Source Naturals Krill Oil 1mg
Now Patethine 600mg (started taking within the past month b/c of recent test results: Cholesterol 180, Tryglycerides 46, HDL=41, and LDL 30)
Jarrow Formulas EPS Probiotics
Jarrow K2-MK7 90mcg
Jarrow ALCAR 500mg
Doctor's Best Na-R-ALA 100mg (taken for overall benefit not necessarily b/c of ALCAR)


Evening:
Men's Multivitamin
Probiotics
Astaxanthin 4mg
ALCAR 500mg
Na-R-ALA 100mg
Pantethine 600mg

Can I get the advertised benefits of Vitamin K2 by using the MK-4 version? It seems like my regimen thins my blood out and I was hoping to restore and/or enhance my clotting ability (just in case I get into a car accident or something :-) ).

[rwac]

Have you tried isolating the k2 mk-7, keeping all other supplements and diet constant?

Maybe it's something else in the natto extract.

Yes, Mk-4 should definitely work.

[Shady909]

rwac,
I've tried integrating the k2 mk-7 into my existing regimen twice and both times I noticed excessive bleeding while flossing. Both times the k2 was the only change to the regimen.

I've just researched online that nattokinase can cause excessive bleeding but I thought k2 mk-7 was supposed to have the opposite effect.

Yesterday I ordered Carlson's k2 (menatetrenone). Hopefully this will work for me.

[pycnogenol]

I've been taking MK-7 at 100 micrograms per day for some time now and have not had the bleeding gum issues that you do.
However, I've been taking Pantethine recently (August) for lowering my cholesterol and for the first month my gums did bleed
at 1200 mg per day so I reduced it to 600 daily thereafter and since then have not had any issues with my gums bleeding.

Edited by pycnogenol, 25 October 2011 - 10:42 PM.

[Alec]

I'd suspect it might be the combination of the fish oil gels, 200 iu vitamin E from the multi and the two high doses of ALA. Natto might be doing it too but I don't know how much actual natto if any is in the vit K2 supplement.

[niner]

I don't think there's a significant amount of natto in the typical k2 supplement. I think Alec may be correct, though I didn't see any fish oil gels; I saw Krill oil 1mg which I presume is a typo. One gram, maybe?

However, I wouldn't be so fast to assume that bleeding gums represent a blood clotting problem. I think it's more likely to be something going on at the gum/tooth interface. How's your gum health in general? Are you getting regular professional teeth cleaning and all that?

A vitamin k deficiency will cause bleeding, because vitamin k is needed to carboxylate several blood coagulation proteins. However, extra vitamin k will not cause clotting. Once the coagulation proteins are carboxylated, they won't get any more carboxylated, or more active, if more K is around.

I suspect that if you had your blood clotting measured (prothrombin time) during one of these bleeding gum events, you would have a normal result.

[Shady909]

I've been taking MK-7 at 100 micrograms per day for some time now and have not had the bleeding gum issues that you do.
However, I've been taking Pantethine recently (August) for lowering my cholesterol and for the first month my gums did bleed
at 1200 mg per day so I reduced it to 600 daily thereafter and since then have not had any issues with my gums bleeding.

Thanks, maybe I should reduce the intake but the problems appear start and subside with the k2.

[Shady909]

I don't think there's a significant amount of natto in the typical k2 supplement. I think Alec may be correct, though I didn't see any fish oil gels; I saw Krill oil 1mg which I presume is a typo. One gram, maybe?

However, I wouldn't be so fast to assume that bleeding gums represent a blood clotting problem. I think it's more likely to be something going on at the gum/tooth interface. How's your gum health in general? Are you getting regular professional teeth cleaning and all that?

A vitamin k deficiency will cause bleeding, because vitamin k is needed to carboxylate several blood coagulation proteins. However, extra vitamin k will not cause clotting. Once the coagulation proteins are carboxylated, they won't get any more carboxylated, or more active, if more K is around.

I suspect that if you had your blood clotting measured (prothrombin time) during one of these bleeding gum events, you would have a normal result.

That is a typo on the krill oil. I meant 1g of krill oil not 1mg, triglycerides not tryglycerides, and my LDL is 130 not 30.

No problems with the dental work. I just went to the dentist 2 months ago and there were no issues. I received a standard cleaning and dentist did not find any new cavities.

I'll look into getting my clotting measured. Thanks!

Edited by Shady909, 26 October 2011 - 02:11 AM.

[Shady909]

I'd suspect it might be the combination of the fish oil gels, 200 iu vitamin E from the multi and the two high doses of ALA. Natto might be doing it too but I don't know how much actual natto if any is in the vit K2 supplement.

Does ALA have a blood-thinning effect too?

[nameless]

Ran across this for pantethine (under WebMD):

Bleeding disorders: There is some evidence that pantethine can slow blood clotting, so some healthcare providers worry that pantethine might increase the risk of severe bleeding in patients with bleeding disorders. If you have a bleeding disorder, get your healthcare provider’s advice before starting pantethine.

However I agree with Niner ... get your PTT measured, if you feel it's a big concern.

[Alec]

I'd suspect it might be the combination of the fish oil gels, 200 iu vitamin E from the multi and the two high doses of ALA. Natto might be doing it too but I don't know how much actual natto if any is in the vit K2 supplement.

Does ALA have a blood-thinning effect too?

There's enough information from research papers that suggest alpha lipoic acid may be antithrombotic. Then throw in a lot of vit E and fish oil which are also believed to thin the blood in high amounts and you might have a problem.

[Shady909]

I'd suspect it might be the combination of the fish oil gels, 200 iu vitamin E from the multi and the two high doses of ALA. Natto might be doing it too but I don't know how much actual natto if any is in the vit K2 supplement.

Does ALA have a blood-thinning effect too?

There's enough information from research papers that suggest alpha lipoic acid may be antithrombotic. Then throw in a lot of vit E and fish oil which are also believed to thin the blood in high amounts and you might have a problem.

The suggestion of Vitamin E reminded me that I did have more than a fist full of organic almonds right around the time of the last bleeding incident. I think that may have contributed to my clotting issue as well.

Thanks for all the info everyone.

[stephen_b]

I've been taking about 1 mg lately to help with plantar fasciitis (that's 1000 mcg). No side effects involving bleeding. It's helped with eliminating pain from a bone spur in my heel.

[pycnogenol]

I've been taking about 1 mg lately to help with plantar fasciitis (that's 1000 mcg).
No side effects involving bleeding. It's helped with eliminating pain from a bone
spur in my heel.

Good to hear it is helping. You do take that amount (1 mg) daily?
As far as I know, vitamin K has a fairly long half life.

[stephen_b]

I dosed it to the level that gave me relief, usually 800-1000 mcg. I'm pretty sure a natto serving has more than that.

[Uber_hippie]

Ya,I had the same experience. I thought that I was imagining it but after I started taking MK-7 my gums were bleeding more and receding a bit. Maybe I'll try MK-4.