41 replies to this topic

[MichaelTheAnhedonic]

Guys, please help me figure out why venlafaxine and other drugs almost stopped working. The most important for me is that venlafaxine doesn't work like it should. Now it acts like when I take high dose - it's sedating, like too much serotonin.

 

But let's start from the beginning. Reminder - I am that guy with brain changes who suffer from mainly negative symptoms without any positive. Venlafaxine was helping me.

 

Then, at the beginning of 2017 I experienced first panic attack. Very short which is unusual - panic attacks are longer. My physical health started to getting worse. Psoriasis and tachycardia showed up. I got beta blockers and benzodiazepine. My thyroid hormones were slighly elevated but the cause was the meds. Now my thyroid is normal but ultrasound showed changes similar to Hashimoto's. My doc said that if my lab results are normal then she will not treat it. Anyway, I was feeling fatigued all the time but venlafaxine was still working. Months passed and I started experience gastric symptoms and the brain fog showed up. Got IBS diagnosis. And I think at that moment I noticed that all my meds are not working as efficient as they should. For 1-2 months they stopped completely working. Now venlafaxine works but it works like I wrote before. I don't know what's happening. I am waiting for gastroscopy because there's suspicion that I might have Celiac disease. I had couple of neurological symptoms of this illness as nystagmus and gait disturbances. Psoriasis is one of the symptom. Another possible cause is my tooth infection. AFAIK when tooth is infected for long period of time, it can fuck up the whole body. IBS can be linked to oral health. IBS can fuck up med absorption. My teeth is in treatment stage, antibiotic has been applied inside of it. Can anyone give me a tip why the hell venlafaxine and even duloxetine doesn't work like it should?

 

Because there's no diagnosis made yet (the brain changes), the physical part of it is just another "illness". My brain changes: atrophied cerebellum (got better), atrophied grey matter, enlarged prefrontal space, SPECT: hypoperfusion in right frontal lobe and asymmetric activity.

 

I will check my cortisol and ACTH levels because I am no longer numb to stress. I even can't tolerate it. Even slight stressor can make my cheeks red, hands cold, increase heart reate, sweating and adrenaline rush sometimes. I still feel uptight so I want to check if my adrenals are ok. Funny thing is that my GP said I have anxiety disorder but psychiatrist denied. 

 

Thanks.

[Mind_Paralysis]

My brain is going through one of those more foggy and tired periods at the moment - feels a lot like earlier in my recovery from Burnout - so it's hard for me to read up on all of that relevant stuff you just mentioned, and how they relate to the brain.

 

BUT... wouldn't a simple experiment be to remove all gluten-filled substances for a while? Basically, go on a celiac-diet and see if something changes - as I understand it, you'll need to be on it for a good long while though, several weeks - so perhaps not THAT simple of an experiment.

 

However, it is something which you can start right now, and actually do yourself, without any special tools or anything.

[MichaelTheAnhedonic]

Today I received test for Helicobacter pylori (gastroscopy with biopsy). It's positive. There was an inflammation in my stomach. Currently waiting for Celiac test - they will check my intestinal villi.

Edited by MichaelTheAnhedonic, 28 June 2018 - 10:33 AM.

[Mind_Paralysis]

Today I received test for Helicobacter pylori (gastroscopy with biopsy). It's positive. There was an inflammation in my stomach. Currently waiting for Celiac test - they will check my intestinal villi.

 

Really? So you have the ULCER bacteria? Well, I suppose this is a GOOD thing! : D Because, now that you know, and it's a bacteria, then you can EASILY KILL IT! And the cool thing is that the antibiotic will hit it right where it is, immediately! Straight down the gut.

 

Here's to you feeling better very soon!

 

I certainly hope that you don't have Celiac as well though - but then, if you don't eat much gluten-based products as it is, anyway, it may not be that much of a loss.
 

Edited by Mind_Paralysis, 28 June 2018 - 01:54 PM.

[jack black]

it would be cool if the OP problems could be cured by antibiotics. I think it's possible. once I had a sudden and horrible episode of anhedonia, depression, and morbid tiredness (CFS-like but subacute) not relieved by 1 month of zoloft treatment. turned out i developed a complication after sinus surgery: fungal sinusitis, and it was fixed by a repeat surgery.

 

BTW, the celiac tests are next to useless. do a genetic test for HLA-DQ 2 or 8 instead or do a trial of gluten free diet.

my regular celiac tests came back negative (and for the rest of the family) but we are all positive for HLA-DQ 2 and have various subtle problems with gluten (no full blown celiac). for example my CRP goes up when I eat gluten and i feel some mental decline next day, i guess from inflammation.

Edited by jack black, 28 June 2018 - 03:28 PM.

[MichaelTheAnhedonic]

AFAIK if H. Pylori is in my stomach, then my body was/still is in constant stress due to cortisol fighting the inflammation. Finally some answers... Maybe my meds will start working again if I kill the bacteria.

[MichaelTheAnhedonic]

NOPE. Still the same problem. The only medications that don't work are methylphenidate and venlafaxine. These 2 drugs don't work. Rest of the drugs works (xanax, nebivolole). WTF?

 

And my intestinal villi are perfect.

Edited by MichaelTheAnhedonic, 31 July 2018 - 02:08 PM.

[MichaelTheAnhedonic]

Methylphenidate stopped working COMPLETELY. How is it even possible?!

 

One doc said that it can be tolerance. But if it was tolerance, then increasing the dose would do the trick. But it doesn't work in any dose.

[MichaelTheAnhedonic]

Methylphenidate induced another panic attack. I don't know what's happening. I almost can't feel the positive effects, it only induced a panic attack. This is unusual, 1 year ago I could take really high dose of MPH and there was no panic attacks.

[Mind_Paralysis]

Have you been cured of that H. Pylori yet?

 

Hard to say what's happening when you've got a big infection in your body at this time, interfering with your digestive process.

 

As for MPH - it IS known to cause more anxiety than amphetamine or Modafinil - it is rather infamous in that regard - it may be a perfectly normal reaction: perhaps you feel more stress and have more latent anxiety at this time, then last year? MPH usually enhances fear and anger that's already in us (i.e it stimulates emotional response).

 

Perhaps consider trying out Amphetamine instead? I would suggest Evekeo, since that's a more balanced compound when it comes to DA and NE.

 

Another, perhaps safer(?) option is BROMANTANE - a stimulant which actually has anxiolytic properties - it's pretty much unique in that regard.

[MichaelTheAnhedonic]

I eradicated H. Pylori. Maybe it is still there, but unlikely.

 

My anxiety level is the same as it was year ago.

 

Only stimulant available here is Ritalin.

 

Bromantane is no longer produced.

 

Should I buy Adrafinil instead?

Edited by MichaelTheAnhedonic, 06 August 2018 - 01:41 PM.

[Mind_Paralysis]

I eradicated H. Pylori. Maybe it is still there, but unlikely.

 

My anxiety level is the same as it was year ago.

 

Only stimulant available here is Ritalin.

 

Bromantane is no longer produced.

 

Should I buy Adrafinil instead?

 

What? Really? I thought not only Russia, but some other east-european countries where producing it? Or is it just that it's been banned in Poland?

 

I see on Reddit that there is apparently some kind of shortage of the official, licensed product... and nootropics-sources are apparently unreliable, since many manufacturers have failed to meet purity-endpoints. Hmm...

 

 

Tricky! I would go for Adrafinil, yes - but perhaps stack it with Atomoxetine as well, yes? Both Reboxetine (another nri) and Modafinil have shown effects on negative symptoms of Schizophrenia, and that's still the most plausible cause of your issues, so drugs in the same classes seem like a good idea to try. Reason I suggest Atomoxetine instead of Reboxetine is because RBX is highly stimulating on its own, and the combo could be rather unpleasant - ATX is known to cause pretty intense sedation, but Modafinil abolishes that like a snap of a finger - allowing for a good combination. (at least in the case of my own brain - yours may be different)

 

[John250]

I eradicated H. Pylori. Maybe it is still there, but unlikely.

My anxiety level is the same as it was year ago.

Only stimulant available here is Ritalin.

Bromantane is no longer produced.

Should I buy Adrafinil instead?

https://nootropicsou...ers/bromantane/

https://nootropicspo...ten-bromantane/

https://www.limitles...hop/bromantane/

[MichaelTheAnhedonic]

https://nootropicsou...ers/bromantane/

https://nootropicspo...ten-bromantane/

https://www.limitles...hop/bromantane/

 

You sure that it's legit? Have you tested?

[Mind_Paralysis]

You sure that it's legit? Have you tested?

 

I rather doubt their legitimacy... None of the above companies are among the trusted suppliers on reddit's /r/nootropics:

 

https://www.reddit.c...iable_suppliers

 

Nor are they among the trusted suppliers which have been vetted and tried by Longecity's staff.

 

A such... I wouldn't trust them any further then I can throw them.

 

 

With that said, if it's REALLY Ladasten nootropicspot is selling, then I guess it's safe, since that's the actual brand-name official product. I'd read up more on them, perhaps try to find IMAGE-PROOF that it's really Ladasten, box and all, that they are selling.

Edited by Mind_Paralysis, 07 August 2018 - 03:14 PM.

[John250]

You sure that it's legit? Have you tested?

No sorry I was just checking if it was still available anywhere

[MichaelTheAnhedonic]

Adrafinil didn't worked. 

 

Currently I've been prescribed pramipexole. And yes, I'm little bit afraid of side effects and DAWS.

 

And methylphenidate works only if I take it with a meal, which is really weird.

[jack black]

if stimulants stop working, maybe your receptors down-regulated? Have you tried something totally different or unconventional? I dunno, like LSD, weed, memantine, naloxone, amphetamines, antipsychotics, MAOI, mood stabilizers, etc?

 

Edited by jack black, 29 August 2018 - 02:56 PM.

[MichaelTheAnhedonic]

I wasn't taking MPH for over 6 months and the "tolerance" is even worse. So I doubt that it's downregulation. Venlafaxine doesn't work too.

 

And why the hell it works only when I eat something? It doesn't make any sense... Maybe eating food releases dopamine and MPH can finally reuptake it? I don't know, it's just a lame theory. Oh, and the effect is very weak. Weak stimulation for 10-15 minutes and it's over.

Edited by MichaelTheAnhedonic, 29 August 2018 - 05:05 PM.

[cat-nips]

What type of methylphenidate? IR, or another form?  If it's IR, then you could try one dose sublingually to determine whether it is an intestinal absorption issue. Also, what are you taking your meds with? You're probably aware, but be sure not to take them at the same time with any acids like orange, grapefruit juice as it could negate the effects.

 

 

 

 

[MichaelTheAnhedonic]

What type of methylphenidate? IR, or another form?  If it's IR, then you could try one dose sublingually to determine whether it is an intestinal absorption issue. Also, what are you taking your meds with? You're probably aware, but be sure not to take them at the same time with any acids like orange, grapefruit juice as it could negate the effects.

 

Thanks, but I've tried taking it sublingually and it didn't work. I don't drink orange and grapefruit juice and I know how they work. The form of MPH I take is IR. I've tried taking it on empty stomach and with food. It only works when I eat 20-30 minutes after I take MPH. 

 

I had IBS symptoms but they disappeared.

[cat-nips]

That is pretty bizarre. The only other thing that comes to mind is the Venlafaxine and IR are somehow cancelling each other out, so perhaps try taking at different times? But it's a weak theory, especially if they were working before. Have you had any dosage changes or anything?  Other than that I have nothing, sorry, except for a vague thought that it is linked to your intestinal issues and for some reason, you're not metabolizing it the same way after your treatment. 

 

My curiosity is piqued.  Please keep this updated if you ever find a resolution to this or figure out the cause.  IBS is something i deal with on a daily basis for the past few years, and to me, it seemed like the medical community has put a blanket on all unknown intestinal issues with the IBS label and it's their way of saying they really don't know what's wrong, but to take an SSRI, or SNRI for it, or something along those lines. 

Edited by cat-nips, 31 August 2018 - 09:13 PM.

[jack black]

i thought IBS was about food allergies or intolerance, often due to gluten. Am I wrong?

 

I just remembered that soviets had a medical research on starvation diet very helpful in psychiatric diseases and some other ones too, like autoimmune. Western science confirmed starvation benefits in animals (for example it protected them from toxicity of chemo). I know there are a few centers in Germany doing inpatient medically supervised near starvation with good results. 

 

just throwing it here for the sake of out of box thinking in case one nothing to lose.

Edited by jack black, 01 September 2018 - 03:39 AM.

[cat-nips]

Lol.  If one is starving, then I suppose IBS or mental health wouldn't be the most important thing. But yeah, I believe that prolonged starvation could produce catecholamine release or regulation, or cause physiological changes to the brain. It does so in all other major organs in the body. Not something I would try due to all the muscle catabolism that must take place. I've seen the calorie deficit theory floating around for awhile and try to sometimes adhere to a IF schedule, but I really don't know if it makes things better or worse in regards to IBS and/or blood sugar. 

 

IBS can cause food intolerances but meds, supplements and stress can trigger symptoms as well. I've heard of it occurring sometimes in people after surgery or chronic antibiotic use or infection. It can happen suddenly, seemingly out of nowhere when it wasn't an issue before. In my case, I was getting chronic bloating for a few months and when I had labs, imaging, colonoscopy done and everything came back inconclusive, they labeled it IBS. Still have that chronic bloating on a near daily basis for a few years now, yet it tends to go away on SSRIs. Milk makes it worse, as does anything fructose based, gluten, wheat. It's pretty ridiculous, and I've learned to just live with it rather than take an antidepressant. Whey can make me violently ill till nearly puking and drowsy for hours. Weird because there weren't issues before. Probiotics is something I'm considering next as I'm feeling pretty stable in my daily stack now. 

 

[jack black]

starvation makes sense because it leads to immunosupression. psychiatric diseases, and especially depression are linked to brain inflammation. I've heard that antidepressants decrease brain inflammation.

 

Is it possible that the OP had chronic inflammatory brain disease? Like boreliosis (Lime disease)?

[MichaelTheAnhedonic]

Actually I'm gonna test inflammation markers. It has been suggested by doc.

 

Interesting finding: https://www.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC5143506/

Edited by MichaelTheAnhedonic, 02 September 2018 - 08:05 PM.

[cat-nips]

Good luck and please keep this updated, if you can. I'd be curious in your findings, causal and/or fixes regarding this that AREN'T related to tolerance or dysregulation, but ARE related to possible IBS, digestion or other issues.  I'd also be interested to know whether Pramipexole helps alleviate some of the anhedonic feelings or is effective for you compared to more standard forms of ADHD treatment.    

Edited by cat-nips, 03 September 2018 - 12:48 AM.

[cat-nips]

Any luck with this? I'm dealing with something similar and have some thoughts that it may be IBS and absorption related.  I've tried more than a handful of SSRIs and SNRIs over the last few years and they seemed to help IBS symptoms or make them go away until I stopped taking them and it returned. 

 

Another thought is that elevated norepinephrine levels for long periods of time (years), has actually led to IBS and IBS symptoms.  Could this be a possibility? Doesn't norepinephrine shut down digestion, or divert blood away from the digestive organs and directs them to heart and muscles as a fight/flight response, similar to cortisol as they are both stress hormones?  Therefore maybe having chronically elevated levels of NE for years through medication possibly effected your digestive process and effects absorption of meds without some kind of digestive push like an acid or maybe food, in your case.  It's just a thought and I'm not done working it out yet or how to get around it.  I'm assuming you already know about the blunting effect of SNRIs to stimulants and that you have already tried taking them at different times apart from each other and that is not the reason behind this.  

 

I'm just on 75mg Armodafinil these days and a handful of other supplements, but I deal with bloating, pain and discomfort daily.  Coffee, modafinil, or most stimulants seem to exacerbate the bloating and IBS, but I can't seem to function without.  Prior to this I was on ADHD treatment for many years, some which greatly elevated NE levels and I'm wondering if that caused dysfunction to my parasympathetic nervous system in some way, including a decreased stress tolerance level.  

 

Currently, I have issues with supplements taking a really long time to kick in sometimes, not working at all, or occasionally they'll only work after a meal and I haven't a clue and I'm playing around with times and before/after meals to figure it out.  I was considering Betaine before or with my meds or trying 2 tsps of ACV in water right before I take my meds.  Let me know if you find anything that works or have any other insight.  

 

 

Edited by cat-nips, 13 September 2018 - 09:24 PM.

[MichaelTheAnhedonic]

Still no one knows what the F is going on (╯°□°）╯︵ ┻━┻

 

Even benzos lost it's effectiveness. I didn't get tolerance, if you're asking. My intestinal villi are in great condition but I think I failed to eradicate H. Pylori. I still sometimes get heartburn, bloating and gases.

 

The thing is that bacteria can cause indigestion which can lead to malnutrition. If I don't digest proteins correctly, then my body can't get enough amino-acids. And without enough amino-acids you can't get optimal neurotransmitter levels. 

 

Well, it's just hypothesis. 

 

Anyway, pramipexole trial failed. I didn't get to recommended dose because it worsened my apathy, blocked apettite and I've felt worse in general. Next step is L-DOPA. If L-DOPA will fail in treating my deficit syndrome (you can read description in my other topics), then I will jump on a trial with MIN-117.

Edited by MichaelTheAnhedonic, 08 November 2018 - 04:40 PM.

[MichaelTheAnhedonic]

Eradication of H. Pylori failed. I still tested positive. I got cheilosis which CAN be indication of B2 deficiency. 

 

Could it really be that this bacteria is impairing my digestion and causing malnutrition? My cognitive abilities got really bad. I can't understand simple sentences sometimes. 

 

Anyway, I refused the L-DOPA for now. I'll be hospitilized very soon.

Edited by MichaelTheAnhedonic, 04 December 2018 - 03:13 PM.