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Protein shakes depleting neurotransmitters?

bcaa protein longevity

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#1 experimenting

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Posted 18 August 2018 - 02:15 AM


We know BCAAs rapidly deplete neurotransmitters. Obviously this should cause significant cognitive issues; many report sluggishness, reduced hedonic tone etc.

I'm wondering if ordinary protein shakes have the same effect. They have large doses of the BCAAs...they have the remaining aminos but perhaps the BCAAS are dominant and are depleting catchefolamines? This would be a huge warning to anyone who uses whey (like I do).

Many here say that you can't take things like tyrosine, you'll develop tolerance. Not really sure what that means in "standard" doses like one gets from food.

Perhaps the solution is to time one's Aminos? Kick the day off with low doses of the neurotransmitter precursors, then go for the complete proteins later on?

Musings but serious food for thought, please everyone jump in.

#2 Dorian Grey

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Posted 18 August 2018 - 03:38 AM

I read a paper opining methionine restriction was equal to calorie restriction in promoting longevity and a high methionine diet was a fast track to accelerated aging.  Wish I had the original source, but these pages touch on the subject.

 

https://www.scienced...531556517300451

 

https://joshmitteldo...ou-live-longer/

 

Most all protein sources contain methionine, but personally, I'd want to avoid regular consumption of methionine bombs.  

 

Don't know what the methionine content of protein shakes are, but I imagine some may have much more methionine than others.  


Edited by Dorian Grey, 18 August 2018 - 04:14 AM.


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#3 experimenting

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Posted 18 August 2018 - 04:46 AM

I read a paper opining methionine restriction was equal to calorie restriction in promoting longevity and a high methionine diet was a fast track to accelerated aging. Wish I had the original source, but this page touches on the subject.

https://joshmitteldo...ou-live-longer/

Most all protein sources contain methionine, but personally, I'd want to avoid regular consumption of methionine bombs.

Don't know what the methionine content of protein shakes are, but I imagine some may have much more methionine than others.


Yep I've heard of this before. Though I was primarily focused on cognition regarding this issue. Was thinking maybe amino acid timing is key. Tyrosine early, the rest later?

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#4 brosci

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Posted 18 August 2018 - 06:28 AM

"We know BCAAs rapidly deplete neurotransmitters. Obviously this should cause significant cognitive issues; many report sluggishness, reduced hedonic tone etc."

When using BCAAs during exercise, I find the slight reduction in serotonin to reduce fatigue and increase motivation / energy.  Personally, I find intra-workout BCAAs more ergogenic than pre-workout carbohydrates or medium chain triglycerides.

 

A role for branched-chain amino acids in reducing central fatigue: https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/16424144

 

Effect of BCAA intake during endurance exercises on fatigue substances, muscle damage substances, and energy metabolism substances: https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/25566428

 

Effects of branched-chain amino acids supplementation on physiological and psychological performance during an offshore sailing race: https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/18704484

 

BCAA supplementation increases resistance to fatigue and enhances exercise capacity and lipid oxidation during endurance exercise after muscle glycogen depletion: https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/21297567


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#5 experimenting

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Posted 18 August 2018 - 12:42 PM

When using BCAAs during exercise, I find the slight reduction in serotonin to reduce fatigue and increase motivation / energy. Personally, I find intra-workout BCAAs more ergogenic than pre-workout carbohydrates or medium chain triglycerides.

A role for branched-chain amino acids in reducing central fatigue: https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/16424144

Effect of BCAA intake during endurance exercises on fatigue substances, muscle damage substances, and energy metabolism substances: https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/25566428

Effects of branched-chain amino acids supplementation on physiological and psychological performance during an offshore sailing race: https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/18704484

BCAA supplementation increases resistance to fatigue and enhances exercise capacity and lipid oxidation during endurance exercise after muscle glycogen depletion: https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/21297567


Yep, but they also deplete dopamine...

https://www.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC3725721/

https://www.ncbi.nlm...ubmed/22677921/

In the end I'm wondering if generic protein shakes essentially block dopamine/serotonin and if so we who workout may really be doing ourselves a disservice.
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#6 John250

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Posted 18 August 2018 - 06:26 PM

Wtf!!! This is the worst news I’ve ever heard. I take a good amount of bcaa’s,whey and other proteins.

#7 experimenting

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Posted 18 August 2018 - 09:07 PM

Wtf!!! This is the worst news I’ve ever heard. I take a good amount of bcaa’s,whey and other proteins.


Indeed. Me too-and I'm not in amazing shape, just thought protein=longevity relative to carbs.

I would note that whey etc is high in glutamine/glutamic acid. These aren't great for the brain (nor are they required).

I think this is a topic warranting serious investigation. As an n=1 trial, today I skipped my morning shake and had 500mg tyrosine on an empty stomach. After cycling class another 500mg. This is to combat the increased serotonin after exercise, which BCAAS supposedly do but they also destroy dopamine.

The question now is-which proteins do we absolutely need to build muscle and for health, recovery etc-can we create a dosing schedule and a formulation that preserves cognition while aiding in sport?

Calling on everyone here, most of whom are smarter than I am. Really calls into question the whole "protein after working Out". Thing.

#8 John250

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Posted 18 August 2018 - 09:25 PM

Indeed. Me too-and I'm not in amazing shape, just thought protein=longevity relative to carbs.

I would note that whey etc is high in glutamine/glutamic acid. These aren't great for the brain (nor are they required).

I think this is a topic warranting serious investigation. As an n=1 trial, today I skipped my morning shake and had 500mg tyrosine on an empty stomach. After cycling class another 500mg. This is to combat the increased serotonin after exercise, which BCAAS supposedly do but they also destroy dopamine.

The question now is-which proteins do we absolutely need to build muscle and for health, recovery etc-can we create a dosing schedule and a formulation that preserves cognition while aiding in sport?

Calling on everyone here, most of whom are smarter than I am. Really calls into question the whole "protein after working Out". Thing.


I may switch to more plant and animal based proteins vs whey and bcaa’s virtually all protein has bcaa’s in it.

#9 experimenting

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Posted 18 August 2018 - 09:25 PM

I may switch to more plant and animal based proteins vs whey and bcaa’s virtually all protein has bcaa’s in it.


Careful with plant protein supps they have monster glutamine and leucine.

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#10 brosci

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Posted 18 August 2018 - 11:24 PM

Indeed. Me too-and I'm not in amazing shape, just thought protein=longevity relative to carbs.

 

This article comes to mind:
Studies in mice and lower life forms show that BCAAs can extend longevity: http://www.lifeexten...Booster/Page-01

 

The issue with dopamine / catecholamine issue seems largely resolved with a pinch of tyrosine: https://www.ncbi.nlm.../pubmed/9623632

 

This article went as far as to claim aging itself might be a lack of dietary cysteine (a whey deficiency?) https://www.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC1569588/

 

I tend to view Leucine as being fairly useful given a moderate protein diet, as it increased NAD+, turns on sirtuin signaling, and increases mitochondrial biogenesis, all of which seem to promote longevity / health span in mammals.


Edited by brosci, 18 August 2018 - 11:37 PM.

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#11 experimenting

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Posted 19 August 2018 - 01:40 AM

This article comes to mind:
Studies in mice and lower life forms show that BCAAs can extend longevity: http://www.lifeexten...Booster/Page-01

The issue with dopamine / catecholamine issue seems largely resolved with a pinch of tyrosine: https://www.ncbi.nlm.../pubmed/9623632

This article went as far as to claim aging itself might be a lack of dietary cysteine (a whey deficiency?) https://www.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC1569588/

I tend to view Leucine as being fairly useful given a moderate protein diet, as it increased NAD+, turns on sirtuin signaling, and increases mitochondrial biogenesis, all of which seem to promote longevity / health span in mammals.


Yep there's no doubt you need BCAA they are essential after all! The question is how do you balance this with optimum cognition. Stupid question but if BCAAs compete with tyrosine how does co administration solve the issue?

A simple solution would seem to be take EAAs with a tyrosine spike but not sure this works.

#12 John250

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Posted 19 August 2018 - 05:52 PM

I’m just going to take tyrosine all throughout the day now. It’s cheap and has a whole host of benefits anyway.

#13 experimenting

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Posted 19 August 2018 - 07:06 PM

I’m just going to take tyrosine all throughout the day now. It’s cheap and has a whole host of benefits anyway.



What are these supposed benefits?

#14 John250

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Posted 19 August 2018 - 08:04 PM


What are these supposed benefits?


https://examine.com/...nts/l-tyrosine/

#15 zorba990

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Posted 19 August 2018 - 10:38 PM

We know BCAAs rapidly deplete neurotransmitters. Obviously this should cause significant cognitive issues; many report sluggishness, reduced hedonic tone etc.

I'm wondering if ordinary protein shakes have the same effect. They have large doses of the BCAAs...they have the remaining aminos but perhaps the BCAAS are dominant and are depleting catchefolamines? This would be a huge warning to anyone who uses whey (like I do).

Many here say that you can't take things like tyrosine, you'll develop tolerance. Not really sure what that means in "standard" doses like one gets from food.

Perhaps the solution is to time one's Aminos? Kick the day off with low doses of the neurotransmitter precursors, then go for the complete proteins later on?

Musings but serious food for thought, please everyone jump in.


Protein shakes like Whey don't break down into only free amino acids. They also break down into peptides. Peptides are absorbed so the effect will be less than straight BCAAs.
You want the peptides because they do other things for you.

BCAAs simply block the brain transport system that tyrosine uses to pass the BBB as a dopamine precursor.

So work on the timing an things will go better. e.g. Tyrosine on empty stomach first thing AM and wait at least 2 hours before any BCAAs.
A normal system will increase dopamine from this. If that is what you really want. YMMV IANAD.

Read up on LNAA transport system. You can see that manipulating it can even be used in disease states like :
phenylketonuria

https://www.ncbi.nlm...cles/PMC408272/

"Large neutral amino acids (LNAAs), including phenylalanine (Phe), compete for transport across the blood-brain barrier (BBB) via the l-type amino acid carrier. Accordingly, elevated plasma Phe impairs brain uptake of other LNAAs in patients with phenylketonuria (PKU). Direct effects of elevated brain Phe and depleted LNAAs are probably major causes for disturbed brain development and function in PKU. Competition for the carrier might conversely be put to use to lower Phe influx when the plasma concentrations of all other LNAAs are increased. This hypothesis was tested by measuring brain Phe in patients with PKU by quantitative 1H magnetic resonance spectroscopy during an oral Phe challenge with and without additional supplementation with all other LNAAs. Baseline plasma Phe was ∼1,000 μmol/l and brain Phe was ∼250 μmol/l in both series. Without LNAA supplementation, brain Phe increased to ∼400 μmol/l after the oral Phe load. Electroencephalogram (EEG) spectral analysis revealed acutely disturbed brain activity. With concurrent LNAA supplementation, Phe influx was completely blocked and there was no slowing of EEG activity. These results are relevant for further characterization of the LNAA carrier and of the pathophysiology underlying brain dysfunction in PKU and for treatment of patients with PKU, as brain function might be improved by continued LNAA supplementation."
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#16 Oakman

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Posted 20 August 2018 - 12:06 AM

Hold on...it's not all bad....at least for elderly women...

 

https://onlinelibrar....1111/ggi.13499

 

Results

The pre‐ to post‐intervention increase in the skeletal muscle mass index was significantly higher for the exercise only group than for the protein supplementation only group (P =0.008), and significantly higher for the exercise and protein supplementation group than for either the exercise only (P =0.007) or protein supplementation only (P <0.001) groups. Similarly, the increase in grip strength and gait speed was significantly greater for the exercise and protein supplementation group than for the protein supplementation only group (grip strength P =0.014, gait speed P =0.026).

Conclusions

Whey protein supplementation, ingested after resistance exercise, could be effective for the prevention of sarcopenia among healthy community‐dwelling older Japanese women.



#17 experimenting

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Posted 20 August 2018 - 12:11 AM

Hold on...it's not all bad....at least for elderly women...

https://onlinelibrar....1111/ggi.13499
Results
The pre‐ to post‐intervention increase in the skeletal muscle mass index was significantly higher for the exercise only group than for the protein supplementation only group (P =0.008), and significantly higher for the exercise and protein supplementation group than for either the exercise only (P =0.007) or protein supplementation only (P <0.001) groups. Similarly, the increase in grip strength and gait speed was significantly greater for the exercise and protein supplementation group than for the protein supplementation only group (grip strength P =0.014, gait speed P =0.026).

Conclusions

Whey protein supplementation, ingested after resistance exercise, could be effective for the prevention of sarcopenia among healthy community‐dwelling older Japanese women.


Yep, I'm thinking about doing less of it though, and perhaps timing some AAs in the morning to preserve neurotransmitters. Wondering what such a stack might look like? 500mg tyrosine plus...

#18 Galaxyshock

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Posted 20 August 2018 - 05:02 AM

The net effect of the protein shake on neurotransmitters is most likely rather neutral = not depleting. I mean whey has pretty much complete amino acid profile that human body/brain needs so why would it be depleting.


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#19 XenMan

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Posted 20 August 2018 - 11:15 AM

The question now is-which proteins do we absolutely need to build muscle and for health, recovery etc-can we create a dosing schedule and a formulation that preserves cognition while aiding in sport?

 

The amount of protein needed is well established and can be found in other sites and forums.

 

"preserving cognition" is a bit hysterical as elite athletes don't seem to have an issue. I've never read of a coach identifying this as problem with uncoordinated, clueless and mentally disabled athletes after a protein drink.

 

I’ve taken heaps of protein powder and BCAAs over the years and never noticed a drop in cognition.

 

Just because there is a mechanism it doesn’t mean it is going affect everyone the same, or have real world applications. Isn't this temporary? Why the concern?

 

As for methionine, researched this a while back and wasn’t concerned. High levels in chicken I think, but you shouldn’t be eating a lot of meat anyway if you want to live for a long time.

 

Certainly an interesting area to explore, but no further action required.







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