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An Ancient "Heat Shock"/NRF2/Pluripotency Related Epigenetic Turn* Accelerates Human Aging** and These can be Modulated

aging switch seth grant psd-95 nf-kb heat shock protein senescence sasp nrf2 morimoto survival

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#61 Nate-2004

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Posted 15 November 2018 - 08:07 PM

It's interesting that HSP 90 is a target to inhibit as a senolytic while HSP 70 is beneficial to increase. Do you think HSP90 gets increased via heat shock like saunas?


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#62 HighDesertWizard

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Posted 16 November 2018 - 01:31 PM

It's interesting that HSP 90 is a target to inhibit as a senolytic while HSP 70 is beneficial to increase. Do you think HSP90 gets increased via heat shock like saunas?

  • I've noticed that hsp70 expression is almost always associated with positive health and longevity outcomes and hsp90 is often associated with negative outcomes. I consciously try not to have strong or any opinions about questions like this unless and until I understand enough to have one.
     
  • I imagine that the paradoxical, and not well-understood, benefits of hsp expression mirror what we see with macrophage phenotype polarization benefits. And, sure enough, from studies referenced upthread, we know that hsp expression can impact macrophage phenotype direction/transformation. When paradoxes like this are encountered around objects (HSPs) with a positive impact on survival probability, it's likely that something very important to our longevity-related objectives is going on: All the more reason to avoid coming to any preconceptions about how it all works until "it's time". And, for me at least, it's not time yet to have an opinion.

    :) 
     
  • Do we know enough to take action now? I think we do. I'm making all this up as I go even while having a direction in mind. All my posts in this thread through 2018 year-end are aimed at generating support for taking the action I plan to take in 2019 by...
    • understanding/demonstrating, by/to myself, in addition to others, that HSPs are, in fact, extremely important to increase the odds of achieving extreme longevity
    • developing a specific intervention regimen and plan to leverage specific well-documented techniques to increase hsp
    • convincing others, including you, Nate, that you should join me on this path in 2019  :)
    • because of #1, getting financial support for frequent (monthly?) biomarker testing from companies like MyDNAge and/or organizations like Longecity
      1. I can get the PEMF mat and incorporate other hsp increasing techniques without approval from others and without financial support, but to determine the efficacy of the regimens, more people than just myself will need to commit to a comparable set of objectives and regimen and need to do frequent biomarker testing

Until year-end, most of my posts here can be understood as laying the foundation of evidence and obvious seriousness required to get people to take my request for support seriously when the time comes that I ask them for it... within the next month.

 

And there it is. I'm playing this game with my cards on the table face up! 

 

;)


Edited by HighDesertWizard, 16 November 2018 - 01:35 PM.

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#63 Nate-2004

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Posted 16 November 2018 - 05:40 PM

I am in, whatever I can do to help, I'm certainly not as knowledgeable as you are but I do what I can. Also I think one of our goals should be to get Lifespan.io to crowdfund a human study on this assuming that's easy to do. It would look at HSP, NF-kB, and inflammatory markers as well as anything else that can be measured in some way. Heat therapy is already confirmed to lower CRP. Mine is ridiculously low for my age. However, one confounding factor is that sulforaphane also lowers CRP so it could be the broccoli I consume and the broccomax I take.


Edited by Nate-2004, 16 November 2018 - 05:43 PM.

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#64 HighDesertWizard

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Posted 19 November 2018 - 09:45 AM

It’s worthwhile to review the status of the 4 sub-conjectures of the thread title conjecture in more detail.

 

“Heat Shock” Expression Declines in Humans During Aging but can be Modulated for Benefit

 

Question: Can we modulate health disorders and aging by leveraging a "heat shock" related process in ourselves?

 

Answer: Yes. Based on…

  • what I’m guessing is, a few hundred studies of various types and angles and products
  • too many anecdotal, positive review experiences of products that stimulate “heat shock” expression compared to negative review experiences
  • at a minimum, the two studies referenced upthread showing survival probability increase

Heat Shock expression inhibits chronic inflammation, increasingly understood to be a fundamental cause of aging. Specifically, the stress response has been shown to inhibit NF-kB triggering of Inflammatory Cytokine expression.

 

The Longevity Science Movement has been much focused on the development of technology for addressing aging-related damage. This “heat shock”-related conjecture suggests many benefits could be achieved by preventing harm in the first place by triggering this innate mammalian process.

 

“Heat Shock”, OSKM, iPSC, and Epigenetic Reprogramming are Related Biological Processes

 

There is a relatively new, but established and growing, literature about the clear relationship of various Heat Shock Proteins to OSKM, iPSC, and Epigenetic Reprogramming. Lists of studies appear upthread.

 

Heat Shock expression appears to be a key driver of Repair and Reprogramming. That mechanism works well when we are young.

 

At 2018-11-19, I…

  • am not familiar with this literature in detail
  • expect it to explode in volume
  • believe that exogenous triggering of Heat Stock expression will turn out to be the best path to Do-It-Yourself Epigenetic Reprogramming

An Epigenetic Turn Initiates an Aging Process in Humans

 

This sub-conjecture summarizes one of the key findings of the Seth Grant / Nathan Skene / Marcia Roy study entitled, A genomic lifespan program that reorganises the young adult brain is targeted in schizophrenia, discussed in the opening post.

  • Still, the study lit the fuse leading to establishing this LongeCity forum thread.
  • As far as I know, no study has yet been published that attempts to replicate the study findings.

The findings of this study could be extremely important to the achievement of key Longevity Science Movement objectives. Here’s a list of a few ways in general.

  • Studies monitoring human youths for gene expression changes related to the turn
  • Human trials of interventions known to be harmless to address the turn, e.g., increased exercise, heated and/or PEMF mats, etc
  • New knowledge would likely result that could benefit older humans from both types of studies above

An Ancient, Non-Mammalian “Heat Shock” Related Epigenetic Turn Exists in Mammals

 

This sub-conjecture is that the ancient, heat shock-related gene expression turn in c. elegans Richard Morimoto wrote about in 2015 is an evolutionarily conserved analog to the epigenetic turn mechanism identified by the Grant/Skene/Roy team.. (I'm uncertain that the phrase "evolutionarily conserved analog to the epigenetic turn mechanism" is the right way to phrase what I mean here. If you know the right way to phrase it, please post it.)

 

 

Through the 2018-year-end, I am strategizing about and planning on participating in an n >= 1 experiment in 2019 as part of the LongeCity Biological Biomarkers test program

  • I’m the 1 in the n >= 1 equation. I hope interested others will increase the n count. The more support I get to do my n = 1 experiment, the more obligation I’ll have to actively post results.
  • I’ve begun to establish the basis for this experiment here.

:)


Edited by HighDesertWizard, 19 November 2018 - 09:51 AM.

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#65 ceridwen

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Posted 19 November 2018 - 10:04 AM

I ordered a PEMF mat from Amazon but it never arrived
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#66 ROBST3R

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Posted 19 November 2018 - 10:50 PM

Hi Highdesertwizard,

How do i get permission to watch the link of your basis for this experiment?

Good threads by the way
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#67 HighDesertWizard

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Posted 20 November 2018 - 06:27 AM

How do i get permission to watch the link of your basis for this experiment?

 
It hadn't registered consciously with me that the LongeCity Biomarkers Project thread is hidden from non-members. The best way keep up and participate is to join LongeCity and then get some testing done.
 
We live in a unique moment in human history. For the first time, we can take specific tests that can tell us with relative accuracy how old we are. And they'll only get better over time.

 

See the In Vivo Amelioration of Age-Associated Hallmarks by Partial Reprogramming thread...

 

  
One of my latest posts in that Biomarkers thread appears below...

 

The "basis" for moving forward with a regimen is to have valid, science-based testing done at regular intervals.

 

The link in the quote below is in my OneDrive account. I'm happy to remove any member name that doesn't want to be included in that spreadsheet.

 

I'll be writing a note to MyDNAge by mid-December, pointing to the evidence discussed in this thread and proposing that they provide me, and whomever else at Longecity has a specific regimen to dramatically increase Heat Shock Protein, with a dramatic discount on a monthly MyDNAge test for a year that we commit to making public.

 

I'm still thinking through what PEMF device to get for this 2019 experiment.

 

Finally took a few moments to better organize the data of this Biomarkers Test effort...
 
We'll want to assess progress over time, so I created an Online Excel spreadsheet with two tabs. The first for raw data entry, the second, a pivot table highlighting results.
 
Here's a link to the spreadsheet that you can view. Notice that on the raw data tab, there is a column for the test date.
 
I'm happy to work the data analysis formulas as time passes. I would really like someone else to step up to enter the raw data. I'll provide write access to the person who knows how to use Excel and volunteers to do that task.
 
Here's what the version of the Pivot Table looks like.
 
Feedback always appreciated, even if not followed...
 
 
V6vkH9dh.png
 
B9eyKb5h.png


Edited by HighDesertWizard, 20 November 2018 - 06:31 AM.


#68 HighDesertWizard

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Posted 20 November 2018 - 06:32 AM

I'm a fan of Joe Cohen and I haven't yet digested what he has to say about PEMF here.

 

https://www.selfhack...-to-get-part-1/



#69 ROBST3R

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Posted 20 November 2018 - 08:56 AM

So i have to sign up for $50,- a year and then i can join the experiment?
What else do i have to do and read to join?

I’m not very good in my English.

I would be nice if you have a complete list of what i (we) should do before we can enter the experiment

Cheers

Edited by ROBST3R, 20 November 2018 - 08:58 AM.


#70 HighDesertWizard

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Posted 21 November 2018 - 07:54 AM

People have been thinking about this topic for awhile. I haven't looked at the PDF below in detail, but clearly not a bad find, this PDF, with lots of detail, from 2001...


HEAT SHOCK RESPONSE AND AGEING: MECHANISMS AND APPLICATIONS


Ageing is associated with a decrease in the ability of cells to cope with environmental challenges. This is due partly to the attenuation of a primordial stress response, the so-called heat shock (HS) response, which induces the expression of heat shock proteins (HSPs), composed of chaperones and proteases. The attenuation of the HS response during ageing may be responsible for the accumulation of damaged proteins as well as abnormal regulation of cell death. Maintenance of the HS response by repeated mild heat stress causes anti-ageing hormetic effects on cells and organisms. Here, we describe the molecular mechanism and the state of the HS response as well as the role of specific HSPs during ageing, and discuss the possibility of hormetic modulation of ageing and longevity by repeated mild stress.

 

Then, in 2015, we get these two studies in wild-type humans...

.
Let's sample just two studies, 1 for exercise and 1 for sauna vis-a-vis survival probability.
2015, Fitness predicts long-term survival after a cardiovascular event: a prospective cohort study

Scgs6Tll.png

2015, Association Between Sauna Bathing and Fatal Cardiovascular and All-Cause Mortality Events

xtaOIKNl.pngj


It's easy to see that deliberate, continuous, and intermittent triggering of the Heat Shock response can make for decades of increased survival probability.

I do not believe there are comparable survival probability findings for ANY other Longevity Science Movement sacred research cow projects currently purported to be important for which ALSO Heat Shock is NOT a confounding variable.

They don't exist.

The NAD+ Survival Probability studies aren't admissible here because, as noted upthread, Heat Shock IS a confounding variable for NAD+'s impact on Survival Probability...

Edited by HighDesertWizard, 21 November 2018 - 12:51 PM.

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#71 Nate-2004

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Posted 21 November 2018 - 03:37 PM

There's a lot about heat shock in this thread but what about cold shock? Ice baths for example.


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#72 Florian E.

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Posted 21 November 2018 - 04:57 PM

According to what i've read in past about hsp70, there was no healthy inducer available and the assumed that hsp70 will only get activated after proteotoxic events.

 

I looked again for newer findings on healthy hsp70 inducers and found these studies. Seems like geranylgeranylacetone/teprenone (normally used for gastric ulcers) might be a healthy and non-toxic hsp70 inducer

 

Role of geranylgeranylacetone as non‐toxic HSP70 inducer in liver surgery: clinical application

https://onlinelibrar...0.1002/jhbp.549

 

Effects of teprenone on expression of heat shock protein 70 and c-fos in stomach following prednisolone ingestion: experiment with rats

https://europepmc.or...ct/med/18361829

 

 

 

The expression value of HSP70 mRNA of the model control group was 0.22 +/- 0.03, significantly higher than that of the normal control group (0.04 +/- 0.02, P < 0.01), and the expression values of HSP70 mRNA of the 3 teprenone groups were 0.36 +/- 0.05, 0.41 +/- 0.09, and 0.49 +/- 0.05 respectively, all significantly higher than that of the model control group (all P < 0.01)

 

But this study on the other hand saw no effect after teprenone administration on hsp70

 

Induction of Hsp70 in Lymphocytes by Whole Body Far-infrared Hyperthermia

https://www.jstage.j..._4_209/_article

 

 

 

No significant increase in the relative amount of Hsp70 was observed after the administration of teprenone (600 mg) followed by hyperthermia of half period. 

 

 



#73 Florian E.

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Posted 21 November 2018 - 06:59 PM

Regarding aging and hsp70 i just read this study from 2018 after work, which is imo very interesting. Recommend to read the whole study since there is a lot of useful information.
 
Heat Shock Proteins and Autophagy Pathways in Neuroprotection: From Molecular Bases to Pharmacological Interventions
 
 
It states that disregulation of the membrane composition and structure by aging is the main driver for hsp70 degradation.
 

 

A new class of “membrane lipid therapy” pharmaceuticals exert their beneficial effect by normalizing Hsp expression [59], as discussed in Section 5.

 

And beside hsp70 to stabilize misfolded proteins also proper working protein degradation pathways (ubiquitination and UPS, ERAD, and different autophagy routes) are important.

 

 

In a broad review of the therapeutic use of autophagy in NDDs, Nixon summarized the following drugs, drug candidates and signaling pathways [331]:

1. mTORC1 (mammalian target of rapamycin) inhibitors (rapamycin, curcumin, resveratrol, latrepirdine)
2. AMPK activation (lithium, trehalose, rilmenidine, plant alkaloids)
3. Autophagosome formation (Beclin-1 mimetics);
4. Selective autophagy: HDAC (histone deacetylase) modulation, HSC70 overexpression/upregulation, LAMP2A overexpression/upregulation;
5. Lysosomal function:
Cathepsin activation, lipid clearance, lysosome membrane stabilization: by Hsp70, cholesterol modulation, and calpain inhibitors
pH acidification: by GSK-3β inhibitors (valproate, lithium)
Lysosomal exocytosis and exosome release by sphingomyelinase 2, phospholipase D and neuraminidase activation.

 

 

The protective function of Hsps in NDDs lies in their capacity to suppress pathological protein aggregation via their chaperon-like activity.

 

 

According to model animal experiments, chaperon inducers and co-inducers have therapeutic potential in the treatment of AD and related NDDs. Natural compounds such as resveratrol, curcumin, astaxanthin, and celastrol have antioxidant and chaperon co-inducer activity. Unfortunately, their water solubility and bioavailability are low to very low and thus the formulation of these compounds should be solved.

 

So dosing e.g. liposomal curcumin (which i already do occasionally) would be good.

 

And:
 

 

As membrane intercalating compounds, the hydroximic acid derivatives belong to a new class of potential drugs for use in “membrane lipid therapy”. For instance, the company Orphazyme is developing arimoclomol in four indications. Phase II/III trials of arimoclomol are running in, among others, ALS and will be completed in 2020.

 

 


Edited by Florian E., 21 November 2018 - 07:07 PM.


#74 HighDesertWizard

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Posted 22 November 2018 - 03:29 AM

According to what i've read in past about hsp70, there was no healthy inducer available and the assumed that hsp70 will only get activated after proteotoxic events.

 

I looked again for newer findings on healthy hsp70 inducers and found these studies. Seems like geranylgeranylacetone/teprenone (normally used for gastric ulcers) might be a healthy and non-toxic hsp70 inducer

 

Role of geranylgeranylacetone as non‐toxic HSP70 inducer in liver surgery: clinical application

https://onlinelibrar...0.1002/jhbp.549

 

Effects of teprenone on expression of heat shock protein 70 and c-fos in stomach following prednisolone ingestion: experiment with rats

https://europepmc.or...ct/med/18361829

 

But this study on the other hand saw no effect after teprenone administration on hsp70

 

Induction of Hsp70 in Lymphocytes by Whole Body Far-infrared Hyperthermia

https://www.jstage.jst.go.jp/article/thermalmedicine1985/21/4/21_4_209/_article

 

Florian... I very much appreciate your post. I've highlighted the study that contains a relatively remarkable statement in the abstract that you didn't mention. In all this detail, it's difficult to notice everything. I certainly don't...

 

2005, Induction of Hsp70 in Lymphocytes by Whole Body Far-infrared Hyperthermia

 

Heat shock proteins function as protein-repairing enzymes for the recovery of stress-damaged cells and defense of cells against many kinds of stress. Therefore, the effects of heat shock protein are expected to play a part in the improvement and recovery of the ability to compete in sports. In the present study, we examined whether whole body hyperthermia at 40°C-42°C for 40 minutes can induce heat shock protein Hsp70 safely and efficiently in human lymphocytes isolated from venous blood in vivo. In addition, to reduce a load of the hyperthermia, we examined the effect of teprenone on the induction of heat shock proteins by hyperthermia of half period.


The relative amount of Hsp70 increased by 2.6-fold (p = 0.051) at 48 h and 2.1-fold (p < 0.05) at 96 h after hyperthermia alone. No significant increase in the relative amount of Hsp70 was observed after the administration of teprenone (600 mg) followed by hyperthermia of half period. Further studies are necessary to evaluate the effect of the administration of teprenone on the induction of heat shock proteins by hyperthermia of half period.

 

That is a big deal. Notice the time in the hyperthermia is 40 minutes: enough time to raise the core body temperature significantly.

 

One question: To what does "40C to 42C" refer? I'm thinking that cannot mean core body temperature, right? It means -> "We set the hyperthermia context temperature to 40C and then put these folks in that context for 40 minutes."

 

Right? Just want to confirm my take on what it means.

 

 

Another important finding concerns the duration of the dose response, depicted in Figure 1.

cqVkpvWh.png

 

Wow. Just... Wow!

 

Great find, Florian!


Edited by HighDesertWizard, 22 November 2018 - 03:33 AM.

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#75 HighDesertWizard

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Posted 22 November 2018 - 04:27 AM

I still don't see any studies in normal mice showing enhanced longevity. As for heat shock protein, that does look interesting, though the plots are focusing only on one aspect of longevity. And even with these positive cardio effects for sauna use, aren't there other explanations? As in reduction of stress? Or different lifestyles? Because if heat shock proteins were really so protective, wouldn't one see these effects in those living in tropical areas? Looking at a world map of heart attack data, there is no obvious correlation.

 
If...

  • the evidence below
    • should be taken seriously
    • is taken seriously
  • there is no other explanation with evidence as serious as that below

then, No.
 
 

 

2005, Induction of Hsp70 in Lymphocytes by Whole Body Far-infrared Hyperthermia
 

Heat shock proteins function as protein-repairing enzymes for the recovery of stress-damaged cells and defense of cells against many kinds of stress. Therefore, the effects of heat shock protein are expected to play a part in the improvement and recovery of the ability to compete in sports. In the present study, we examined whether whole body hyperthermia at 40°C-42°C for 40 minutes can induce heat shock protein Hsp70 safely and efficiently in human lymphocytes isolated from venous blood in vivo. In addition, to reduce a load of the hyperthermia, we examined the effect of teprenone on the induction of heat shock proteins by hyperthermia of half period.


The relative amount of Hsp70 increased by 2.6-fold (p = 0.051) at 48 h and 2.1-fold (p < 0.05) at 96 h after hyperthermia alone. No significant increase in the relative amount of Hsp70 was observed after the administration of teprenone (600 mg) followed by hyperthermia of half period. Further studies are necessary to evaluate the effect of the administration of teprenone on the induction of heat shock proteins by hyperthermia of half period.

 
That is a big deal. Notice the time in the hyperthermia is 40 minutes: enough time to raise the core body temperature significantly.
 
One question: To what does "40C to 42C" refer? I'm thinking that cannot mean core body temperature, right? It means -> "We set the hyperthermia context temperature to 40C and then put these folks in that context for 40 minutes."
 
Right? Just want to confirm my take on what it means.
 
 
Another important finding concerns the duration of the dose response, depicted in Figure 1.
cqVkpvWh.png
 
Wow. Just... Wow!

 


Edited by HighDesertWizard, 22 November 2018 - 04:45 AM.


#76 HighDesertWizard

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Posted 22 November 2018 - 08:19 AM

As I mentioned in the opening post, I've been thinking about this topic a good while. I'd completely forgotten about this thread created back in May until this evening.

 

Hotter bodies fight infections and tumours better – researchers show how

 

Two big puzzle pieces are noted here, my friends, heat and NF-kB...

 

r4i9p3dh.png


Edited by HighDesertWizard, 22 November 2018 - 08:25 AM.

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#77 HighDesertWizard

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Posted 26 November 2018 - 11:06 AM

Another important finding concerns the duration of the dose response, depicted in Figure 1.

cqVkpvWh.png

 

Wow. Just... Wow!

 

I'm reminded of a friend I met in 2016 who had just become an Avacen Sales Associate. Avacen's business model is a kind of MLM model. Speaking with him about his Avacen experiences was one of the anecdotal data instances that got my attention once becoming aware of the 2015 Sauna study and the 2015 c. Elegans Heat Shock Aging Switch study.

 

The Avacen is an FDA approved device that applies heat to the palm, the catch being that the palm must exist in a vacuum. Here's the key marketing video.

 

 

This device helped my ~75 year old friend with his arthritic pain, already low blood pressure, and athletic performance. He loaned it to me a few times, but I don't have body pain to speak of and didn't feel much. During the times he loaned it out, he said it took about 2 to 3 days for his back pain to return.

 

I'd wondered about what the explanation of his experience might be, but now I see, thanks to Florian's link, that there is one based in evidence.

 

"Heat Shock" triggers Heat Shock Protein expression and it remains highly expressed for a few days.

 

--------

 

You'll notice that "Heat Shock" is never mentioned in the video. It was clear from my reading back then that the Avacen management team had no clear idea that Heat Shock Protein expression was implicated in how their product provided a positive effect.

 

That experience highlights an important principle... Never write off the truth of an effect a person says they've experienced just because their explanation of How the effect is triggered makes no sense and is, at the time, without supporting evidence. The fact of the effect of an anecdotal intervention is a separate question from the biological explanation for it having taken place.

 

--------

 

A second lesson initially learned from understanding the Avacen, is crucial to leveraging "Heat Shock" for benefit...

 

It's not just that "Heat Shock" has to be applied. It's that body temperature must be raised to trigger benefit. In the Avacen case, the hand had to be placed in a vacuum to trigger a slightly higher temperature, only 1 to 2 degrees Fahrenheit. I tried to raise body temp several times with no vacuum. It doesn't work without a kind of vacuum that the Avacen does, evidently, provide.

 

The larger meaning... Manipulations, in addition to the mere application of heat, might be required to squeeze the heat benefits out that one imagines from a particular kind of heat application.

 

--------

 

I've now got 5-minute interval temp data from use of the PEMF mat I discussed above both, for myself and a friend. Will share soon. Gotta get my day started. I've found a business in town that provides for dry infrared sauna. Will be doing a sauna there soon to get my n = 1 temperature increase data in place.

 

You'll work on getting data too, right, Nate?

 

;)


Edited by HighDesertWizard, 26 November 2018 - 12:09 PM.

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#78 Nate-2004

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Posted 26 November 2018 - 06:01 PM

As I mentioned in the opening post, I've been thinking about this topic a good while. I'd completely forgotten about this thread created back in May until this evening.

 

Hotter bodies fight infections and tumours better – researchers show how

 

Two big puzzle pieces are noted here, my friends, heat and NF-kB...

 

r4i9p3dh.png

 

Counter intuitively, this lends more support for inducing cold thermogenesis since that means more internal heat in the long run. This in addition to sauna time may help. It'd be cool if there were more study on cold shock.  I'm looking at doing this over the winter to see what happens. 


Edited by Nate-2004, 26 November 2018 - 06:06 PM.


#79 Nate-2004

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Posted 26 November 2018 - 06:05 PM

 

 

You'll work on getting data too, right, Nate?

 

;)

 

There's a well rated digital thermometer in my Amazon cart right now, just waiting to get paid end of week.

 

I will add that after one single week of vacation where I did not exercise or use the sauna, my morning heart rate variability fell from the usual average of 60+ reading to a mere 45. That's no good. I wonder how the body responds to a break like that and then a sudden start though. I'm about to head to the gym now. I want to see if there's gains over the results I had before due to deconditioning or deadaption per se. 


Edited by Nate-2004, 26 November 2018 - 06:38 PM.


#80 xEva

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Posted 27 November 2018 - 08:33 PM

Nate, re cold/hot you should do what Russians and Finns do. i.e. they sit in the sauna for a while and then jump into a hole in the ice (or roll in snowdrifts). Or you can jump into a very cold pool or, at the very least, take a cold shower. In any rate, in this tradition cold ALWAYS follows heat. And personally, that's the only time I could jump into the frozen pool and find it pleasurable.

 


Edited by xEva, 27 November 2018 - 08:53 PM.

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#81 Nate-2004

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Posted 27 November 2018 - 08:45 PM

Actually I think some of the studies on sauna indicated that waiting was better, cooling off slowly resulted in further, lasting changes and the same goes for cold. They were measuring certain functions on one guy during and after he got out of cold water and it turned out that his respiratory quotient actually kept increasing as he was sitting there on the edge of the pool. It's in one of the RP videos.

 

I have started avoiding showering off too fast or too cold, even if I do have to get back to the office.  Ideally I'd have a sauna at home so I don't even need to get back to work.


Edited by Nate-2004, 27 November 2018 - 09:34 PM.

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#82 xEva

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Posted 27 November 2018 - 08:59 PM

Actually I think some of the studies on sauna indicated that waiting was better, cooling off slowly resulted in further, lasting changes and the same goes for cold. They were measuring certain functions on one guy during and after he got out of cold water and it turned out that his metabolic rate actually kept increasing as he was sitting there on the edge of the pool. It's in one of the RP videos.

 

I have started avoiding showering off too fast or too cold, even if I do have to get back to the office.  Ideally I'd have a sauna at home so I don't even need to get back to work.

 

 

you mean, "some of the studies" beat the tradition that's hundreds of years old?

 

re cold. you do not warm up after the cold. You get the internal heat wave when you get out, so no warming up is necessary. But heat you always follow by cold. Otherwise you may feel sluggish and slow afterwards.
 


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#83 Nate-2004

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Posted 27 November 2018 - 09:45 PM

Tradition usually gets something wrong or inaccurate, even if it's on the right track. Especially if it's really old and arrived at through trial and error not science and tools to monitor what's happening.

 

The guy I linked in the video above does say that contrasting back and forth does have its benefits in other ways, that aren't related. 

 

I never feel that sluggish coming out of the sauna. I'm still trying to find where I read that the benefits of the sauna continue after use for up to an hour and for that reason it isn't a great idea to jump straight into the cold. Yeah it might feel better to cool off fast, but if it kills the benefits, I'm not doing it.  Also I read somewhere that people have died doing such extreme contrast exposures, heart failure, or whatever reason. I've gotta start saving every single little thing I watch or read otherwise I am going to want to refer to it at some time in the future and I'll never know where or what it was.


Edited by Nate-2004, 27 November 2018 - 10:03 PM.

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#84 sthira

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Posted 27 November 2018 - 10:35 PM

Tradition usually gets something wrong or inaccurate, even if it's on the right track. Especially if it's really old and arrived at through trial and error not science and tools to monitor what's happening.


Speaking to the tradition part, I've been to Sanduny (Moscow's legendary bathhouse), and it's quite the treat if you're ever there. Kinda like a club where Russian (men) drink beer, yell and whisper their business deals, and all lounge around naked, drinking, and sometimes they get wasted while simultaneously detoxing, it's both funny and powerfully transformative.

But overall, I don't know, looking around at the bodies of mostly pot-bellied Russian elite doesn't inspire confidence that regular banya attendance does a whole lot for longterm health -- that is, in absence of the boring ole lifestyle habits we struggle with (like eating whole plants and riding your bicycle, fasting or hiking around in the woods). From a health-centric view, I think the banya experience is part of a larger whole that's mostly social.

In the big Moscow banya you do the sauna first: you sweat: then you plunge into these ice-cold wooden baths, and finally hop into a pool. The setting of Sanduny is grand: wide, spacious halls built in the 19th century, elegant staircases curling upward into heavens of carved, domed ceilings, and enormous columns and gilt work surround you, it's all amazing and aging and slightly haggard and threadbare in that Soviet kinda way. Roman statues line the pools, art dwarfs you -- all of it is literally breathtaking, it's very social, and it gives you the sense that you're a small part of a big history.

Is banya healthy? Probably definitely yes. Russians love it. You can get some birch leaves and pay a psychotic naked dude to beat the fucking shit out of you. The beating is awful -- nothing resembling the sanity in xEva's video -- and these beatings could be, um, rage-inducing -- hot, beaten, then cold, miserable, laughing, you see why they drink beer, you'll want to kill people -- but then later comes the magic. You'll feel free and a lightness of being, like a bird in air, and you'll feel the blood rushing within you in a very real way, like every pulse. It can be transformative.

Probably similar grandiosity exists in the US; but my point is this is a social event that occurs within a social context, it's not just you wearing a towel or a cold vest all alone in your miserable flat. I think that the social aspects may be an important key to the presumed health benefits...
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#85 xEva

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Posted 28 November 2018 - 01:07 AM

I never feel that sluggish coming out of the sauna.

 
this means that you have not yet experienced heat to the fullest, and certainly did not bring your body sufraces to 42C+. Which reminds me, they wear special felt hats in banya, to protect the head from excess heat (you don't wanna cook your brains) -- though myself I don't bother and only wrap my head in a dry towel (which has to be changed several times, coz it gets wet).
 

I read that the benefits of the sauna continue after use for up to an hour and for that reason it isn't a great idea to jump straight into the cold. Yeah it might feel better to cool off fast, but if it kills the benefits, I'm not doing it.  Also I read somewhere that people have died doing such extreme contrast exposures, heart failure, or whatever reason. I've gotta start saving every single little thing I watch or read otherwise I am going to want to refer to it at some time in the future and I'll never know where or what it was.

 
 No, the real benefit is exactly from this drastic change in temps (after hundreds of years, I'd think they came up with the best way to do it). Besides, when your surfaces are 42C+, you will want to jump into something very cold, and the colder the better. That's how you detox: in heat you blood goes to periphery and in cold it goes into the core. You don't do it just once, but at least 3 times (i.e. you go in, sit at first  for15 min, then 20-25, then longer). In between, first you go through the cold routine and then rest (and that's where the social part comes in). After half an hour or more,  you go in again, for your second time, and so on. So you blood goes from your core to the surfaces and back several times.

 

But we already know that you tend to be cautious and it's probably good that you take it slow and easy. In Russian tradition this is a weekly thing, starting from early childhood (and women don't drink beer in banya, only stupid men do).


Edited by xEva, 28 November 2018 - 01:37 AM.

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#86 HighDesertWizard

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Posted 28 November 2018 - 06:10 AM

 
this means that you have not yet experienced heat to the fullest, and certainly did not bring your body sufraces to 42C+.

 

Hi xEva...

 

I've wondered if you'd seen this thread. I think "Heat Shock" is the repair mechanism we discussed more generally in that thread about Repair that was going for a long time years ago...

 

You raise an interesting question... Is it Body Surface temperature or internal (Core) Temperature that is the most important variable to track.

 

Understanding the dynamics of core temperature change while in the sauna will help to provide insight.

 

On that mat, I was able to raise my temperature via mouth thermometer about 1 degree Fahrenheit. I don't think that's enough. But with some additional manipulations, I think I can get it to 2 degrees. I was surprised when I learned that the Avacen device I referenced a couple posts ago only raised the temperature 1 to 1.5 degrees Fahrenheit. But that's a unique mechanism. (Heated pad for the palm of the hand, BUT in a vacuum.)

 

Given that PEMF triggers "Heat Shock" without raising the external skin temperature, I'm thinking internal temp is more important. But I'm uncertain...

 

Another thought... Would the degree of "Heat Shock" benefit be different if the internal temperature was raised by 2 degrees Celsius in 25 minutes vs an hour?

 

Wondering out loud here... Do we have techniques or tools or devices or any means to measure "Heat Shock Benefit" triggered aside from temperature, however, we might measure that?

 

Thoughts?


Edited by HighDesertWizard, 28 November 2018 - 06:25 AM.


#87 HighDesertWizard

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Posted 28 November 2018 - 06:47 AM

In the work I do as a software engineer, I've learned to look for what appear to be anomalies or otherwise what appear to be unusual facts. There's gold to be found in discovering that a single Explanation underlies a set of anomalies and facts not understood.

 

Not saying that the following Explanation is true, but let me know what you think...

 

There are 2 facts and a question highlighting an anomaly that all could be related to a single Explanation...

 

--> Might it be that "Heat Shock Benefit" is dose-dependent, not only on absolute temperature, or the degrees of temperature increase but also on how fast the increase takes place...

 

Think about it... That Explanations sheds light on the following...

 

1 - Why Infrared Sauna would provide beneift --> fast rise in temperature

 

2 - Why a vacuum is required for the Avacen device to provide benefit. (In my experience, the Avacen raised internal temperature by about 1 degree in 15 minutes or so.)

 

3 - It provides a kind of answer to the question Turnbuckle raised a while back...

 

I still don't see any studies in normal mice showing enhanced longevity. As for heat shock protein, that does look interesting, though the plots are focusing only on one aspect of longevity. And even with these positive cardio effects for sauna use, aren't there other explanations? As in reduction of stress? Or different lifestyles? Because if heat shock proteins were really so protective, wouldn't one see these effects in those living in tropical areas? Looking at a world map of heart attack data, there is no obvious correlation.

 

Another thought... Isn't there also recent literature about benefits from Intense Interval Training?

 

-->> I'm likin' this hunch...


Edited by HighDesertWizard, 28 November 2018 - 06:51 AM.


#88 xEva

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Posted 28 November 2018 - 11:44 AM

Hi xEva...

 

I've wondered if you'd seen this thread. I think "Heat Shock" is the repair mechanism we discussed more generally in that thread about Repair that was going for a long time years ago...

 

You raise an interesting question... Is it Body Surface temperature or internal (Core) Temperature that is the most important variable to track.

 

Understanding the dynamics of core temperature change while in the sauna will help to provide insight.

 

On that mat, I was able to raise my temperature via mouth thermometer about 1 degree Fahrenheit. I don't think that's enough. But with some additional manipulations, I think I can get it to 2 degrees. I was surprised when I learned that the Avacen device I referenced a couple posts ago only raised the temperature 1 to 1.5 degrees Fahrenheit. But that's a unique mechanism. (Heated pad for the palm of the hand, BUT in a vacuum.)

 

Given that PEMF triggers "Heat Shock" without raising the external skin temperature, I'm thinking internal temp is more important. But I'm uncertain...

 

Another thought... Would the degree of "Heat Shock" benefit be different if the internal temperature was raised by 2 degrees Celsius in 25 minutes vs an hour?

 

Wondering out loud here... Do we have techniques or tools or devices or any means to measure "Heat Shock Benefit" triggered aside from temperature, however, we might measure that?

 

Thoughts?

 

re body temps reached in sauna or banya, I don't know, coz I never measured it and I did not read the studies (maybe just a few way back). I saw 42-45C highlighted up the thread and assumed this was surface temp, coz for the core, I think, that would be too much.

 

The diff between sauna and banya is that banya is colder and not quite as dry (but not as steamy as Turkish baths either, something in between).   But this depends on your  preferences and you modulate both the temperature and the amount of steam. Also, in both banya and sauna you have several levels of benches where you can chose to sit (or lie down) with the hottest and steamiest at the top.

 

I have always belonged to a gym and for me a gym was not a gym unless it had a sauna or at least a steam room. Though I noticed that when I lived in NY I preferred sauna, but when I lived in LA, in its dry climate I preferred steam. Now I don't have access to sauna for several years already, and I miss it terribly.

 

Re time spent, of course, the hotter it is the less time you can stand it. I remember the sauna in one bath house in Russia was ~90C and you had to make sure you were absolutely dry when you got in, otherwise the wet patches of skin would scald (and sweat evaporated immediately). I find this unnecessary and excessive -- but some people like such excesses. Same for steam. I remember my first experience in the steam room in the same bath house -- I had to run out after just a minute, coz I could not breathe.

 

My preferred temp in banya is ~60-65C. I don't like it too hot, coz I like to lie there for a long time and sweat. I remember reading a while ago that the best temps are ~55C, that this type of heat penetrates tissues easily and I tend to agree. I would sit in such a temp for over an hour, then take a break and then go in again. I could lose a gallon of sweat in a session (this is easy to estimate by noting your weight before and after plus water you drank minus what you peed).

 

So, there is a lot of variation out there and the best way is what you like the most at the  given moment,  which tends to change with climate and season, and your current physiological state, I think.
 


Edited by xEva, 28 November 2018 - 12:26 PM.

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#89 HighDesertWizard

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Posted 28 November 2018 - 04:42 PM

re body temps reached in sauna or banya, I don't know, coz I never measured it and I did not read the studies (maybe just a few way back). I saw 42-45C highlighted up the thread and assumed this was surface temp, coz for the core, I think, that would be too much.

 

The diff between sauna and banya is that banya is colder and not quite as dry (but not as steamy as Turkish baths either, something in between).   But this depends on your  preferences and you modulate both the temperature and the amount of steam. Also, in both banya and sauna you have several levels of benches where you can chose to sit (or lie down) with the hottest and steamiest at the top.

 

I have always belonged to a gym and for me a gym was not a gym unless it had a sauna or at least a steam room. Though I noticed that when I lived in NY I preferred sauna, but when I lived in LA, in its dry climate I preferred steam. Now I don't have access to sauna for several years already, and I miss it terribly.

 

Re time spent, of course, the hotter it is the less time you can stand it. I remember the sauna in one bath house in Russia was ~90C and you had to make sure you were absolutely dry when you got in, otherwise the wet patches of skin would scald (and sweat evaporated immediately). I find this unnecessary and excessive -- but some people like such excesses. Same for steam. I remember my first experience in the steam room in the same bath house -- I had to run out after just a minute, coz I could not breathe.

 

My preferred temp in banya is ~60-65C. I don't like it too hot, coz I like to lie there for a long time and sweat. I remember reading a while ago that the best temps are ~55C, that this type of heat penetrates tissues easily and I tend to agree. I would sit in such a temp for over an hour, then take a break and then go in again. I could lose a gallon of sweat in a session (this is easy to estimate by noting your weight before and after plus water you drank minus what you peed).

 

So, there is a lot of variation out there and the best way is what you like the most at the  given moment,  which tends to change with climate and season, and your current physiological state, I think.
 

 

xEva... I very much appreciate the insight you've shared. I have extremely limited experience with Sauna.

 

Also, please keep posting. It was your post about temperatures that triggered the thought and my post about the fact that it might be the Speed with which body temperature rises that might be key to bringing on "Heat Shock Benefit".

 

That said, I disagree that "the best way is what you like at the given moment".

 

I agree with the belief Nate articulates and I explain why it's important to get clear about this below...

 

Tradition usually gets something wrong or inaccurate, even if it's on the right track. Especially if it's really old and arrived at through trial and error not science and tools to monitor what's happening.

 

 

 

Humor me if what I write below sounds redundant to you. The stakes are high here and a major problem, IMO, is Not that the facts are repeated too often but too infrequently.

 

I've come to believe in the importance of reminding myself why I believe what I do and why I'm prioritizing the activities I'm engaged in. I do that because, unlike many thought leaders in the longevity science movement, I'm a Fallibilist.

 

There are too many in our movement, especially our leaders, who state personal belief dogma as fact and expect that we'll take it onboard just because they say so....

 

Not...     (There's a lot more to say about this and I will get around to saying more about this after laying the evidence foundation, which I am putting effort into now and will post at some point...)

 

 

 

Take a seat, get comfortable, review the study evidence graphic figures below, and reflect on what they suggest might be true...

 

How many additional years of increased survival probability might we have if we take these studies seriously and put in the effort required to

  1. understand the biological details of what drives the data shown in the images?
  2. formulate strategies and devise techniques to leverage those details in our personal lives?
  3. successfully integrate the practice implicated details of that effort into our lives?

I believe the evidence suggests that we might achieve 2 to 3 decades of increased survival probability...

 

Keep in mind... 

  • The evidence illustrated in those pics below concerns some wild-type humans with increased survival probability who were not especially conscious of what the mechanism might be that was giving them longer life...
  • So when we take the lessons onboard of their experience and the mechanism(s) underlying it, we won't be wild-type humans doing comparable things to what they were doing.
  • We'll be wild-type humans taking action as a result of our conscious and deliberate attempt to leverage the benefit of knowledge of the mechanism they helped us to see is important

That's no guarantee of an increased longer lifespan, but it is increased "survival probability" and that's not nuthin'... It's not some magic pill or potion or surgery promised by others...

 

I ain't waitin' for the LongevityScientists in the Sky (Promising) Diamonds... (apologies to the Beatles)...

 

I could attempt to figure all this out this by myself, but faster progress is possible with more minds sharing evidence and speculations, even with many false opinions expressed by me... I'm going to get some things wrong... Show me where and how I'm wrong... I'm determined to be open to changing my mind...

 

... Because the details matter and it's important to get them right...

 

That's why I'm here, in this thread, grinding around these details that may be boring to many, but that we CAN get right if we try...

 

It's about those few extra decades, for myself and for my friends and family...

 

:)

 

 

In 2015, we get these two studies in wild-type humans...

 

HighDesertWizard, on 07 Nov 2018 - 7:00 PM, said:snapback.png

.
Let's sample just two studies, 1 for exercise and 1 for sauna vis-a-vis survival probability. 
2015, Fitness predicts long-term survival after a cardiovascular event: a prospective cohort study

Scgs6Tll.png

2015, Association Between Sauna Bathing and Fatal Cardiovascular and All-Cause Mortality Events

xtaOIKNl.pngj


Edited by HighDesertWizard, 28 November 2018 - 05:28 PM.

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#90 Nate-2004

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Posted 28 November 2018 - 06:20 PM

In the work I do as a software engineer, I've learned to look for what appear to be anomalies or otherwise what appear to be unusual facts. There's gold to be found in discovering that a single Explanation underlies a set of anomalies and facts not understood.

 

Not saying that the following Explanation is true, but let me know what you think...

 

There are 2 facts and a question highlighting an anomaly that all could be related to a single Explanation...

 

--> Might it be that "Heat Shock Benefit" is dose-dependent, not only on absolute temperature, or the degrees of temperature increase but also on how fast the increase takes place...

 

Think about it... That Explanations sheds light on the following...

 

1 - Why Infrared Sauna would provide beneift --> fast rise in temperature

 

2 - Why a vacuum is required for the Avacen device to provide benefit. (In my experience, the Avacen raised internal temperature by about 1 degree in 15 minutes or so.)

 

3 - It provides a kind of answer to the question Turnbuckle raised a while back...

 

 

Another thought... Isn't there also recent literature about benefits from Intense Interval Training?

 

-->> I'm likin' this hunch...

 

 

 

Because if heat shock proteins were really so protective, wouldn't one see these effects in those living in tropical areas? Looking at a world map of heart attack data, there is no obvious correlation.

 

So for one thing, no, because even in tropical areas of the world on the hottest days it never gets up beyond 80 degrees celsius, that's insane. Nobody's in a natural situation where their internal body temp rises to fever levels. Even if they were it'd probably be chronic and unhealthy.  Also, back to cold shock, I wonder how beneficial each temperature extreme is based on the average temperature and climate where you live. It may have some mild effect?

 

For another, yeah it's probably also dose dependent. 20 minutes for sauna seems to be the sweet spot.

 

Sthira also makes the point that these Russians don't look so well and aren't living any better despite their Sauna use, but the Finnish are. The difference may be other lifestyle habits like drinking but also the back and forth hot to cold is shown to not be where the benefit is. It's better to cool off slowly and naturally because the following hour is where things seem to happen and I think you referenced that somewhere earlier in these posts. I can't recall where I saw that.

 


Edited by Nate-2004, 28 November 2018 - 06:21 PM.

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Also tagged with one or more of these keywords: aging switch, seth grant, psd-95, nf-kb, heat shock protein, senescence, sasp, nrf2, morimoto, survival

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