207 replies to this topic

[RighteousReason]

My AP world history teacher told our class more than two years ago that she thinks homosexuals are the next big target for America's historically tremendous source of hatred/racism.

I think she completely missed the mark on that one.

[RighteousReason]

http://www.nobeliefs...MOW/GAMOW24.htm

^_^

[scottl]

toto I don't think you're in Kansas anymore

[Live Forever]

Yes, atheists (for some reason I always want to spell it athieists instead, too, instead of the correct atheist) are far more despised than homosexuals. I would assume that the percentage of people that are atheists are higher than the percentage of homosexuals, but I guess some "Christians" do not have a problem with homosexuals, while all (or just about all) "Christians" have a problem with atheists, accounting for the difference.

[william]

hankconn, checkout the video and literature in support of a Creator God at http://www.beyondtod...ProgramID=bt015 and tell me what you think? The Bible clearly supports a longer lifespan and, even the complete conquering of death itself. See Isaiah 65:20; Revelation 21:3,4. In fact, God's help in the matter is essential. It can't be done anyother way.

Edited by william, 01 June 2006 - 12:02 PM.

[Live Forever]

william, since you are new here and this is the first topic you chose to reply to, I am assuming you are a Christian fundy. I have a question for you, since it seems your entire argument is based on the Bible, which I would say most critically thinking people take as not being the literal truth. Have you done any reasearch into some of the many contradictions in the book that you seem to be basing your entire argument on? (not even taking into account the many different versions, the historical inaccuracies, etc) I think you would have to first convince hank of the existence of God before taking on the next task (which some might consider harder) of convincing him that there is a reason he should believe everything in your book that has been shown to be full of errors.


Edit: I see that the link to be one that just argues for the existence of God. I don't feel like watching it right now, but I am sure that every point they bring up can be argued point by point. Here is a link to a good place to start on expanding your mind and comprehension of why people do not believe (or, the more neutral, do not think there is enough evidence to prove) the existence of a god or gods.

Edited by Live Forever, 01 June 2006 - 01:02 AM.

[RighteousReason]

William I've spent many years (really...) considering God and religion and here is the main conclusion I have drawn:

Neither prayer nor faith in God helps you obtain what you want. I wish there were an easier way out (really), but based on my own findings, as well thescientific literature that is out there, if a God exists, it isn't externally imposing itself in any observable manner anywhere in the Universe.

Secondly, there has never been any reliable historical source documenting a supernatural phenomenon (think Hume).

If you are saying we can't do it without God's help in the sense that we can't do anything without God's help, then you are merely producing a standard issue tautology, adding the idea of God where no mention is necessary (in the sense that Laplace had no need for that hypothesis).

Does the Bible "clearly" support life extension? I am willing to bet my left nut that I can find someone in .2 seconds that can refute that with more fury than a South Asian tsunami (the Bible is historically famous for being able to argue for and against just about anything, depending on what you want it to say).

[DJS]

Christianity is a slave morality.

[rjws]

Living in the deepsouth Im asked my beliefs constantly. I just always say the same line.


I believe in GOD. just not the Bible cause it was made by man.....


Wich is a lie but here its fighting words to be an Atheist or Agnostic

[maestro949]

It is best to ignore them. Responding gives them the sense that they have an audience and only draws them back to proselytize further.

[maestro949]

Wich is a lie but here its fighting words to be an Atheist or Agnostic

No, sadly it's just hatred pure and simple.

[Grail]

I have found that a belief in a greater purpose or force can help people to overcome difficulties, and to be calmer and confident in the face of adversity. Argue all you want against religion, and the existence of god, but it certainly helps many people. The sense of wellbeing is enjoyable, and the thought that you are being watched over is very comforting. I'm saying this as a spiritual person rather than a religious person. I don't necessarily support religion, in fact I am rather against it, but spirituality has many benefits, the least of which can be a moral basis upon which to grow upon.

Also, if you grew up with religion, it can be difficult sometimes not to find yourself involuntarily imploring towards the heavens at times.

Edited by grail, 01 June 2006 - 02:06 AM.

[Kalepha]

Christianity is a slave morality.

Being human is a slave morality.

[maestro949]

I have found that a belief in a greater purpose or force can help people to overcome difficulties, and to be calmer and confident in the face of adversity. Argue all you want against religion, and the existence of god, but it certainly helps many people. The sense  of wellbeing is enjoyable, and the thought that you are being watched over is very comforting. I'm saying this as a spiritual person rather than a religious person. I don't necessarily support religion, in fact I am rather against it, but spirituality has many benefits, the least of which can be a moral basis upon which to grow upon.

There is no doubt that faith can provide a sense of comfort for many but is the comfort from a divine source or a placebo effect? If all peoples of all faiths experience the same wellbeing despite claims that all other religions are false, wouldn't it point to the psychosomatic affect of having hope that there is more to life than the struggles of everyday life followed by being thrown in a wooden box and tossed in the ground.

If the same sense of wellbeing, morality and high ethical standards is attainable without faith and/or religion, shouldn't those who choose not to believe be free to do so without harrassment, intimidation, persecution and barraged with steady diet of proselytizing, pseudo science and disinformation?

This isn't directed at you per se as your post has been inciteful, respectful and non-threatening but I sense the flamewar is on the horizon should the more militant factions choose to engage

Also, if you grew up with religion, it can be difficult sometimes not to find yourself involuntarily imploring towards the heavens at times.

Most difficult indeed. Religions indoctrinate children at an early age. The positive imagery and feeling of love, community and joy are difficult to displace with rational understanding of why you are drawn back to it later in life. Even understanding the connection doesn't necessarily help. It's not referred to as the opiate of the masses for nothing.

[DJS]

Christianity is a slave morality.

Being human is a slave morality.

Fortunately, I choose not to believe that.

[Kalepha]

Whatever works, Don.

[RighteousReason]

I have found that a belief in a greater purpose or force can help people to overcome difficulties, and to be calmer and confident in the face of adversity.

This is an interesting effect for me. When I was flying out to the Stanford Singularity Summit, the plane flew over the water of the bay as I came into San Francisco Airport. Actually it was a very startling approach, because with the angle of the window on the plane, all you could see was water stretching out, while you got so close you could see the individual waves within the water breaking in the wind with no land is at all visible. I found myself becoming extremely nervous as I felt the plane dip lower and lower without any land in view. I wanted to jump up and shout "Holy @#$% PULL UP!".

But then I also knew the odds of a plane crash are so rediculously low that I shouldn't feel at all nervous. It's embarrassing to feel nervous because the odds are so high against something abnormal. Then, quite suddently (and shockingly) my world view shifted into that sense of irrational calm in the face of (seemingly) extreme danger- and I said "Ah yes. This is what faith feels like."

Basically, faith is a good thing to have- ONLY when you are *allowed to have it* by the evidence. I just happened to know the actual probability of getting in a plane crash was astronomically low, and thus that comforting wash of pure faith was entirely acceptable to embrace.

The math should always be more comforting than the philosophy.

[RighteousReason]

more likely to die on a bicycle than an airplane

[Live Forever]

From hank's link: "Air and space transport accidents"

If I had to pick a way to go, I want it to be in a space transport accident, preferably on the return journey.

[william]

Live Forever, I guess you might call me a "Christian fundy", but I don't belong to any religious organization. My understanding of the Bible differs way too much for me to fit into any established religious denomination. I like alot of the literature put out by http://www.gnmagazine.org. They're unique in many of their beliefs and are a good place for scientific types, such as yourself, to start a serious Bible study. They don't, however, have a perfect understanding of the Scriptures yet.

I could guide you along in a serious Bible study if you could guide me along in using this computer. I'm a computer novice with about four months experience under my belt. I've noticed you can make those hyperlinks pretty much out of thin air. In my second post, I was only able to make one link, the second one didn't work. I'm still trying to figure that out.

[william]

hankconn, checkout my post to Live Forever. I'll guide you along on a Bible study too if you'll guide me along on using this computer. First, you'll have to watch that video and checkout the literature I mentioned in my first post. Many scientists led by logical reasoning have been forced to the unmistakeable conclusion that God exists, that He created the universe and everything in it, and that He must have a plan for mankind. For example, in the June 13, 1988 issue of Newsweek, in the article entitled "Reading God's Mind" it says "Newton spent his last years consumed by Biblical prophecy..."

Bible knowledge is very soon going to prove to be absolutely essential in practicing Calorie Restriction (CR) for an increased lifespan. Right now only a handful of highly motivated and goal-oriented scientific types are able to practice it. It's going to take a new religious system, based on a better understanding of the Bible, practicing a very deep "reverence for life" to make CR workable for the greater number of people necessary to make it a success.

[quadclops]

Bible knowledge is very soon going to prove to be absolutely essential in practicing Calorie Restriction (CR) for an increased lifespan.

[huh]

Uh, William, I admit I'm no Bible expert, but I have read it several times and, I don't recall any passages specifically relevant to dieting.

On another note, here's a fun little story I found on silly Fundie shenannigans. [tung]

[Grail]

There is no doubt that faith can provide a sense of comfort for many but is the comfort from a divine source or  a placebo effect?

Probably, which is why I don't support the religion aspect, as this can be dangerous, and lead to conflict.

If the same sense of wellbeing, morality and high ethical standards is attainable without faith and/or religion, shouldn't those who choose not to believe be free to do so without harrassment, intimidation, persecution and barraged with steady diet of proselytizing, pseudo science and disinformation?

Absolutely. Does anyone else have anything to add to this? Other sources for these perhaps (just as potent). These would probably differ widely between people, but it would be interesting to know.

Most difficult indeed.  Religions indoctrinate children at an early age.  The positive imagery and feeling of love, community and joy are difficult to displace with rational understanding of why you are drawn back to it later in life.  Even understanding the connection doesn't necessarily help.  It's not referred to as the opiate of the masses for nothing.

I agree. Apart from the occasional lapse though, It isn't really much of an issue. I doubt I will start going to church or anything. If anything it provides an insight into the minds of fundamentalists, without the drawbacks of being fully involved.

There are some people who have a need for something to believe in, something to tell them everything will be ok. Religion can be a way for them, as long as they stay true to the reasons they had for becoming religious. I dislike those who try to forcefully convince others that their way is the only way. This, though, generally applies only to religion.

[RighteousReason]

Bible knowledge is very soon going to prove to be absolutely essential in practicing Calorie Restriction (CR) for an increased lifespan. Right now only a handful of highly motivated and goal-oriented scientific types are able to practice it. It's going to take a new religious system, based on a better understanding of the Bible, practicing a very deep "reverence for life" to make CR workable for the greater number of people necessary to make it a success.

My problem with this is that you are contradicting yourself. When you say "absolutely essential", what entails is that without the Bible, practicing Calorie Restriction is beyond human ability. Your next sentence points out the flaw in that reasoning.

I have a lot of respect for religious people, in the sense that they have the ability to squelch desire for the sake of motivation. But religion isn't "absolutely essential" for that. Maybe a religious mind-set or approach is necessary, but none of the supernatural superfluousness has to be there for it to work.

[Live Forever]

I could guide you along in a serious Bible study if you could guide me along in using this computer. I'm a computer novice with about four months experience under my belt. I've noticed you can make those hyperlinks pretty much out of thin air. In my second post, I was only able to make one link, the second one didn't work. I'm still trying to figure that out.

william, for hyperlinks, you have to go to the "advanced" mode (click "Go Advanced" down at the bottom after entering some text, or click "Quote" on somebody), then click the button at the point you want there to be a hyperlink, click the "http://" button at the top, and it the first box enter the url you want to direct people, hit ok, and in the second box that pops up enter the text you wish them to see, it will put the link at the end of where you have typed so far, so it may be easier to do it as you go, instead of at the end (where you would have to copy/paste it back to where you wanted). Also, to get the "Quote" thing to work right, you have to hit enter before the last [ /QUOTE] thing (make sure it is at least one line below the text) for it to display correctly.

As far as you guiding me through the Bible, I know it may be hard for you to believe from the way that I talk, but I have done enough Bible study of my own in my life (especially when growing up), and am not totally against the Bible as a literary document (is pretty good in that respect, actually, especially for the time period it was written), but as a religious text it falls short by quite a bit.

Uh, William, I admit I'm no Bible expert, but I have read it several times and, I don't recall any passages specifically relevant to dieting.

Oh, gosh. There is a ton of stuff about what to eat, and how to eat it located in the Bible. Most of it is from the old testament (mainly in the parts telling the Jews how they were to live, eat, keep clean, etc), but there are some new testament references as well. A Google search for the terms "Biblical Eating" produces a ton of results. (I am sure "Bible Eating", etc would do the same) Back in my younger days, when I still considered myself a fundy, I actually read through a few of these types of books, and tried to stick to a "Biblical" diet. (I can go into more detail if anyone is interested)

(Note: I no longer believe in any of the Biblical direction about what to eat, was only providing the above statement as a reference.)

[rahein]

eckout the video and literature in support of a Creator God at http://www.beyondtod...ProgramID=bt015 and tell me what you think? The Bible clearly supports a longer lifespan and, even the complete conquering of death itself. See Isaiah 65:20; Revelation 21:3,4. In fact, God's help in the matter is essential. It can't be done anyother way.

I listened to much of it, as I have been interested in how people are being mislead with pseudo-science.

The main point seemed to be that the fact that there are laws to the universe is proof of god. If even one of those laws where different the universe would come to a halt. I wonder which lab they altered the laws of the universe in to test their statement. They then when on to say that something had to provide the initial energy. And energy is chaotic and needs a guiding force to be shaped. Many studies have shown order comes easily from chaos. Heck our cells use Brownian motion to transport proteins in many instances. Brownian motion is just random motion in a liquid. Is god pushing around my proteins to make them work.

Of course there was the fair share of false metaphors.

[Mind]

As far as I have read, William is correct, the bible conclusivley supports life extension. So my question is, why are the vast vast vast majority of religious people against life extension. Someone else made a good point that you can read and interpret the bible any way you want and have it support any ideology. It has been used in the past to justify slavery and subordination of women.

[Live Forever]

As far as I have read, William is correct, the bible conclusivley supports life extension. So my question is, why are the vast vast vast majority of religious people against life extension. Someone else made a good point that you can read and interpret the bible any way you want and have it support any ideology. It has been used in the past to justify slavery and subordination of women.

I agree, Mind. In the 5th chapter of the very first book, you have someone living to 969 (of which the M-Prize is named for). Those that belive in a literal interpretation of the Bible would (you would think) be in favor of at least living till 1000 or so based on just the first book, not taking into account all of the other stuff. Relief of sickness and death, Jesus healing people, Paul saying (in Philippians) that we should desire to stay on earth (when comparing earth to heaven), various people (such as Job) being "rewarded" with longevity, etc.

You would think Christians would embrace an opportunity to stay on earth longer (if only to spread their "message" more).

[quadclops]

Oh, gosh. There is a ton of stuff about what to eat, and how to eat it located in the Bible. Most of it is from the old testament (mainly in the parts telling the Jews how they were to live, eat, keep clean, etc), but there are some new testament references as well. A Google search for the terms "Biblical Eating" produces a ton of results. (I am sure "Bible Eating", etc would do the same) Back in my younger days, when I still considered myself a fundy, I actually read through a few of these types of books, and tried to stick to a "Biblical" diet. (I can go into more detail if anyone is interested)

Oops! [wis] Thanks LF, I checked your links and you were right, Doh! Well, I gotta admit, I haven't actually read the Bible in several years. I must have forgotten the parts about eating.

[RighteousReason]

Well, I gotta admit, I haven't actually read the Bible in several years. I must have forgotten the parts about eating.

lol, I used to brag a lot about having read the whole Bible. Then someone asked me a fairly easy question and I realized I had forgotten irrelevant details (which was, well... all of it).

Live Forever when are you openning your Church of Christian Life Extension? (soon?)