207 replies to this topic

[Live Forever]

Live Forever when are you openning your Church of Christian Life Extension? (soon?)

Haha, you so funny. [lol]

Perhaps just a Church of Transhumanism, that might be kind of fun to attend.

[DJS]

As far as I have read, William is correct, the bible conclusivley supports life extension. So my question is, why are the vast vast vast majority of religious people against life extension.

The bible lends itself easily to interpretation. As such, it can support just about any position imaginable.

For the majority of Christian sects, the concept of life extension conflicts with deeply entrenched memetics; memetics which have evolved an imperative for exclusivity.

[John Schloendorn]

why are the vast vast vast majority of religious people against life extension

What is your evidence that they are? My personal experience would seem to suggest that supporters, opponents and agnostics of life-extension are about equally distributed among religious and non-religious people. Some of the most confident opposition seems to come from leftish, very secular social democrats and greens. But I am not aware of any actual data, are you?

[DJS]

Also, one can embrace spirituality as an atheist.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naturalistic_spirituality

[DJS]

What is your evidence that they are?

I'm willing to bet it could be produced, John.

Christian bioethics = conservative bioethics = opposition to tech-progressive bioethics

[DJS]

I would agree however that Christianity is not the exeption to the rule when it comes to opposing life extension. The majority of most demographics are opposed.

Our biggest obstacle: The "Natural Order" memecomplex.

The Supposed Sin of Defying Nature: Part One

[Live Forever]

Yea, I agree with Don, the very definition of conservative is wanting to not progress (from dictionary.com, conservative: Favoring traditional views and values; tending to oppose change.). (aka, hold things back) They don't want to do experiments on stem cells, teach evolution, etc., so I am thinking that the chances neo-cons and Christian fundamentalists would want to pursue life extension technologies is much less than those who are more progressive minded. (imo)

Now, that isn't to say that there won't be people across all sectors of society that oppose us. In fact, I think there are battles to be fought for the minds of lots of different groups.

[John Schloendorn]

Conservative is an ambiguous term. The definition you just gave has nothing to do with religion, but is equally or even more applicable to left-wing followers of the "Natural Order memecomplex".

The fundamentalists you cite are fringe individuals, ranting a lot, but ultimately powerless to stop the overwhelming majority of people from funding life-saving research. If we had therapies to cure every age-related disease, of course the vast majority of people would be with us in an eyeblink. The problem is getting there.

There certainly is a "battle to be fought", but it is against aging, not against people.

[John Schloendorn]

I have been involved in rejuvenation research for like half a year, and in activism for several years. Not once has any person, religious or non-religions attempted to keep me from doing what I do. The problems are technical, financial and human resources. Opposition is in my experience a complete non-issue.

[Live Forever]

John, I completely agree with a lot of what you have said. However, if there was a large contingent of people that had sizable influence over politics, then they could stifle public funding (much like was done by GWB back in 2001 with public funding of stem cell research). Now, that is not to say that all research, or that your research will be affected, but there is some damage that could be done.

Also, as far as the future is concerned, there could be objections to spending heavily on curing aging, as well as the implimentation (making it illegal once it is available).

I am not saying that this is happening, or will happen, but I think that you underestimate the power of a large group of highly motivated people to hinder progress.

[maestro949]

Opposition is in my experience a complete non-issue.

Partly because there are few who take the issue seriously as the belief by the majority of the religious memesphere is that immortality is and always will be impossible so there's no point in openly interfering with the lunatic fringe (that would be us) who are pursuing it. For example, I have so completely devistated my mother-in-laws fragile Christian view of the world by successfully convincing her that immortality is achievable in the relative near term that she is utterly beside herself. Every time I see her she carries on and on how wrong it is to pursue such ideas and keeps raising the question "Who would want to live forever." She has taken informal polls of all her friends (all Christians) and claim that none of them want immortality. "It's not right." they say in chorus in a kneejerk fashion. All of them scoff at the notion that it is even possible. From their perspective, I'm a freak for believing in such hoo ha. I just pose the question to them "If there were a pill that you could take that eliminated all affects of aging, would you take it?" This will stump them and leave them in a position of either lying with a "no" or contradicting their "who would want to live forever" with a "yes." It's quite entertaining to watch people stumble over themselves trying to struggle with the idea that despite the fact that their brain has been wired since infancy to cope with the "fact" that they are going to die, may not happen. It's almost as fun as asking them the question "Who invented God."

[RighteousReason]

Conservative is an ambiguous term.

I come from a fairly political background (grandparents were journalists or something, and my mom was active in some compaigns... one of which being Newt Gingrich). My parents were both very typical-seeming conservatives. I grew up in the South, and a good bit around Southern People, so I think I can make a somewhat decent assessment of what they are all about. Generally they are sheep, first and foremost. They will support whoever the Republican is that is running pretty much always. One interesting thing I noticed is that old people need more money than they have for healthcare costs (this is probably a conclusion drawn from a drastically statistically insignificant sample, and thus a more even-handed conclusion would be that they like having the government help with healthcare). Other than that, they tend to favor smaller government and lower taxes (and pretty much anything good for business).

I think if care was taken to address religious concerns in the most harmless possible ways (preferably avoiding them as much as possible), and if people were introduced to this idea not as *immortality*, but merely as the next new wave of technological capabilities (most of us poor country folk have merely followed the system and society quietly in sheer amazement, with all this technology coming along and blowing away everything we have ever lived by). The world today is in a state of transition that is completely mindblowing. The entire 19th century was basically a discontinuity with everything in human history that had led up to that point. We are sitting in that discontinuity that started many, many years ago. Even though I think Ray Kurzweil's arguments aren't going to hold up to the future (and the reality of a self-modifying artificial intelligence), there is something unshakeable about his point. We can't ignore the stories we hear fluttering around about nanochips in the making, or the strangely overwhelming success of SIAI and Kurzweil, or the stories in the news about cancer being cured, or the business that had the $100 billion dollar search algorithm.

Tell people-
"Hey, we have this thing, it will cure some people of some really bad disease, can I have some money"
"Ok"

Instead of-
"Hey, we want to rebel against the laws of nature and become a state of pure God-hood"
"POLICE!"

[Live Forever]

hank, I grew up in much the same situation as you, it seems, in the South surrounded by family/friends that were extremely conservative & religious, voting Republican almost exclusively. (although whether Republicans, at the national level especially, still favor smaller government and lower taxes could be a point of argument)

I agree very much with what you say, which is why I have always been in favor of including Christian material in outreach efforts (although how to do that is key, I like how Alcor and CI incorporate Christian topics into their FAQs) and having the ability to approach people with dignity and knowledge of where they are coming from. Much more can be gained, (imo) from working with people rather than being belligerent and argumentative. Of course if someone comes up to you and says, "There is a god!" or "believe this book!" or something else unrelated to life extension, then that is a completely different story, although I would argue being polite and having your facts straight always works much better than being rude and/or not having all the facts.

I think that when aging is cured, most people will find a way to incorporate it into whatever they believe. Christianity survived the discovery that the Earth wasn't flat, that the Earth wasn't the center of the universe, evolution (many Christians would say), and many other scientific discoveries. I do not think that a cure for aging will falter many people's beliefs.

[william]

As far as I have read, William is correct, the bible conclusivley supports life extension. So my question is, why are the vast vast vast majority of religious people against life extension. Someone else made a good point that you can read and interpret the bible any way you want and have it support any ideology. It has been used in the past to justify slavery and subordination of women.

Mind, thanks for seeing that the Bible supports life extension. If the Bible is understood correctly, it can be seen that a long, healthy, happy, life is God's goal for us. That's what the Bible is all about.

Those religious people, who are against life extension, you mention, are people who either lack a full understanding of the Scriptures or are false teachers who deliberately misconstrue the Scriptures to support their wrong way of life. Anytime the false teachers see a potential threat to their so-called "good life," they'll misconstrue the Scriptures against the threat. Have you seen the Fox News article at http://www.foxnews.c...,196498,00.html that mentions this problem?

I feel it's very important for life extension scientists to be able to counter the false teachers with a new and better understanding of the Bible. As the successes in your endeavors grow, the false teachers and other ignorant people, may pose a greater problem. Right now you're only a remote or possible threat. Things change.

Also, God is not for violence and oppression. This can be seen by the reasons He gave in Genesis 6:5-13 for destroying all mankind - except for Noah - with a flood. The only reason He used violence and permitted oppression was to establish the Israelites - a "hard hearted," "stiff-necked" people who were very difficult for God and His prophets to deal with - in the land so He could educate them through His laws, the prophets, and Jesus Christ, in order to achieve the greater good of the peaceful and productive society that'll be the end result of this lengthy educational process.

[Live Forever]

Have you seen the Fox News article

Anytime I see Fox News, I think: Fox [airquote] News [/airquote]
[lol]

I feel it's very important for life extension scientists to be able to counter the false teachers with a new and better understanding of the Bible. As the successes in your endeavors grow, the false teachers and other ignorant people, may pose a greater problem. Right now you're only a remote or possible threat. Things change.

Also, God is not for violence and oppression. This can be seen by the reasons He gave in Genesis 6:5-13 for destroying all mankind - except for Noah - with a flood. The only reason He used violence and permitted oppression was to establish the Israelites - a "hard hearted," "stiff-necked" people who were very difficult for God and His prophets to deal with - in the land so He could educate them through His laws, the prophets, and Jesus Christ, in order to achieve the greater good of the peaceful and productive society that'll be the end result of this lengthy educational process.

Again, you are using as a reference here a book that most people do not believe to literally be true. You are basing assumptions off of assumptions here.
1) Assume there is a God, and people here believe that
2) Since people believe #1, assume that I have chosen the correct God out of the thousands there are to pick from, and that that the religion of Jesus Christ is the correct one under that God, and people here believe that
3) Since people believe #2, assume that this book is the complete and literal truth, and that people here believe that

So, as I see it, there are three levels of assumptions you are making, when I think that most people will not even buy into the first one. Your time might be better spent trying to argue for the mere existence of God, instead of just assuming people believe that, and also your particular interpretation of that God, and your particular interpretation of what that God says.

I run into this a lot among Christians, they just start quoting the Bible, thinking that will prove their point. If an individual does not believe the text that you are quoting from has any particular importance, then you might as well be quoting Shakespeare, John Grisham, or the phonebook.

[william]

Live Forever, you're a tough customer. Some day you might be confronted with one of those unexplainable questions in your scientific field and need some help explaining it in terms of God. I remember reading a book back in 1980-81 called, I think, "The Dancing Wu Li Masters", where particle physicists were confronted with the unexplainable behavior of certain subatomic particles. They reached the end of reasonable theories and started trying to explain the problem in terms of God as cause.

I'm like you. I like the life extension ideas. I practice strict vegetarianism and CR. I weigh about 5 pounds less and I'm 1/2 inch taller than Brian Delaney. I'm scared, however, of the youngster in the video at http://edition.cnn.c...ie.counting.cnn.

When you going to lose some weight like that? That you in your avatar?

[Live Forever]

Live Forever, you're a tough customer.

Suprisingly enough, it is not the first time I have been told that.

Some day you might be confronted with one of those unexplainable questions in your scientific field and need some help explaining it in terms of God.

Possible, but not likely because I have contemplated it so much so far. (I used to be a "good Christian", very religious, and as you know, it takes a lot to change the mind of someone like that)

When you going to lose some weight like that? That you in your avatar?

Haha, no, that is Aubrey de Grey. He is probably the most famous person having to do with radical life extension. A quick Google search should tell you all you need to know about him. [thumb]

[Grail]

The thing is William, throughout history people have attempted to explain the apparently unexplainable through the existence of a superior being or "God". What makes you think that it is ever going to be any different? Why should we accept your argument based upon this framework?

[william]

Live Forever, I saw the video on this site with Aubrey de Grey in it a few months ago. I also thought I read somewhere he's a member of Imminst.org.

Would I need lessons from Spock on Starship Enterprise to make an avatar like that? Don't waste your time with a lenghty tutorial if it's more complex than using the features of this forum to make posts. I still haven't figured that out yet. I might wrestle with that again sometime today.

[william]

qrail, to be successful in achieving longevity you'll have to accept my argument. It's a matter of life and success for you.

[Grail]

Much more complex than posting I gather.
William, perhaps in a hundred years we shall know whether your idea was the right one.

So i take it from your posts that you will not be taking advantage of technological developments to help extend your life? Is it just blind faith, cleanliness and good diet? What extent of life extension are you aiming for? Why do you wish to extend your life further? Wouldn't it be better to be in eternal paradise?

[william]

qrail, that might depend on the person. For me computers are still pretty novel. I just basically walked into 2006 from 1976 a few months ago. They didn't have any computers back then for the proletariat. At least not that I was aware of.

Did you see my answer to question #1 of Kent23's post at http://www.imminst.o...f=170&t=1294&s= ? That's the onlyway you're going to be able to do it. If I live to 120 to 150 years and die as easy as Moses (Deuteronomy 34:7), I'll be satisfied. If the Lord provides a way for a greater extension, I'll accept that too. Eternal paradise will be long life on earth in the Kingdom from God that Jesus Christ sets up at His second coming.

I wish to extend my life further so I'll always be able to get up earlier then Live Forever. I wish I could put one of those clickable smilies here.

Edited by william, 03 June 2006 - 03:54 PM.

[RighteousReason]

william if you want to have your mind completely blown away, check out the singularity institute, particularly the "summit notes"

[william]

Thanks for the info hankconn! I noticed the spot where it says:

"For the first time, there is the possibility of humans using technology to become, not only healthier and wealthier and longer-lived, but smarter. At last it will be possible for our intelligence to grow along with our technology. We believe a world that realizes these possibilities is a better world, one of the best possible futures for humanity."

The only problem I have with this stuff is that the intelligence or smartness they're talking about seems to be only in the area of technology and other worldly matters. Do they have a plan for man's character developement necessary for producing a peaceful, harmonious, nonoppressive society? That's going to be absolutely essential in producing longer lifespans.

I'm certain that such a society can only come about through practicing God's law and Christ's teachings to there fullest in a communal setting where all things are shared. I'm not saying computers and other technology can't play a part in the communal life to enhance man's existence; however, the One who'll actually make that choice will be either the Father or the Son. In fact, it's already either a part of His Plan or not a part of His Plan I'm sure.

Isn't this singularity institute stuff just the Second or Next Generation Startrek stuff I missed but read alittle bit about? I read that S/F book where the computers took over and oppressed man. I don't remember the title or author. I'm sure there's been a number of variations on this theme.

[Live Forever]

william, I am afraid creating an avatar like that is a bit harder than just posting in the forums.

I have heard some people correlate the Singularity with the biblical account of the second coming of Christ.

As hank is so eager to usually point out, hard-AI of approximately human level (which would quickly become much smarter, if able to self modify) could be the single most important achievement in the history of mankind. william, this is not Star Trek stuff, it is much more than science fiction. If you read some of the stuff out there on the Singularity, it will blow your mind (at least it blew my mind) how fast it (could) increase its intelligence and how intelligent it (could) become. Your concerns about being oppressed is why it is so important to make the AI Friendly, which is what lots of people are working on now.

[RighteousReason]

The self modifying thing confuses people a little bit.

William, self-modification is like changing your current self for the purposes of God (like choosing to extend your life, or follow a certain diet, etc).

The Singularity is about an intelligence being able to modify not only it's behavior, beliefs, actions, etc (like us humans), but also it's hardware, software*, and environment.

*People often underestimate the power you really imply when you say artificial intelligence. AI is an intelligence, with a source code. It can learn it's own source code and the programming language it is implemented in. It could improve the language of the source code, add modules to the code, functions, and powerful completely alien properties of intelligence completely unknown to humans as of right now (Imagine if we had Google-Mind and permanent and perfect (digital) memory)

For some it's also hard to imagine why anybody would do this, and what they would use it all for. If you are one of these people- dedicate an entire week of imagination and concentrated thought on what one could possibly do with this stuff. Here's a hint: the point of it all is that intelligence produces technology, and because you are implementing technology to improve your intelligence, this closes the feedback loop.

It will be like flipping a switch. For evolution, the switch was flipped when humans arose. In the blink of an evolutionary eye, the physical Universe was drastically altered. For humans, flipping the switch is a robust self-modifying intelligence. In the blink of a human eye, the human Universe will be drastically altered.

[william]

Live Forever, skip the avatar thing. My hands are full enough already.

I've never seen anything directly dealing with AI in the Bible. The closest thing is Revelation 21:3,4 where "death or mourning or crying or pain, ... and the old order of things has passed a way." Nothing is said specifically on how this will be accomplished. May be God will let man do some of this through technological innovation. It's hard to say.

This is why I strongly urge you scientific types to quickly obtain as much Bible knowledge as possible so you can be prepared to make a bargain with God. He's probably going to want this new technology developed by people who understand Him and are willing to serve Him in His Kingdom on earth.

Otherwise, all your plans and efforts will likely come to nothing on the Lord's Day.

[Live Forever]

I've never seen anything directly dealing with AI in the Bible.

There is nothing dealing with cars in the Bible either, does that mean you shouldn't drive?

[RighteousReason]

He's probably going to want this new technology developed by people who understand Him and are willing to serve Him in His Kingdom on earth.

Possibly, or maybe Jesus will come back another quarter of a billion years from now, when humans have at long last mastered the skill of being decent to each other. Maybe the Singularity is just a really big thing that will drastically affect everyone, but has nothing to do with any cosmic spiritual influence (any more than anything else), and has nothing to do with the return (or revenge) of any religious prophets, messiahs, or gods.

Maybe this is a battle designed by God strictly for humans to overcome. To learn to actually be nice to one another, which is the only thing he really wanted all along, as I understand.

[william]

Live Forever, you missed those Scriptures too? The statute in Leviticus 19:16 says "[d]o not do anything that endangers your neighbor's life", and the second greatest commandment in Matthew 22:39 says "[l]ove your neighbor as yourself."
The principles given here are designed to guide you in your decision on whether or not to drive a car. Since the level of death and destruction by motor vehicle accidents is very high - and is really nothing more than another disease that needs conquering - you are prohibited from endangering the life of others as well as your own life by driving them. See http://en.wikipedia...._vehicle_deaths for information on "some" death statistics due to motor vehicle accidents. They're actually much worse than listed here.

Another consideration is the level of oil consumption (think territorial hegemony, human and ecological exploitation, warfare, and terrorism here) and pollution (think global warming here) involved in manufacturing (think factory and mine accidents and oppressive conditions here) motor vehicles and operating them. Revelation 11:18 says "[t]he time has come for ... destroying those who destroy the earth." May be you should rethink driving don't you think?

And, you got to ask yourself, what business does any future society practicing life extension have driving motor vehicles under these circumstances? This sure doesn't show the necessary "reverence for life" needed to make life extension work. It's a major flaw and contradiction.