207 replies to this topic

[jaydfox]

Hank, it's not just about an increased statistical chance of death, and otherwise, all is peachy keen.

By this, I mean, doing something like driving recklessly or playing Russian roulette, where there's an increased statistical chance of death, but otherwise no ill health effects. Such is not the case with smoking...

[Live Forever]

LF

How is this any different from what I was saying?

Its not, hence me saying:

I am with Don.

Then proceeding to agree with you. So, umm, yeah, I really did agree with you. Like I said. I wasn't lying, I promise.

[jaydfox]

LF, I think it was the "however" that threw him off. Like you were saying, "I'm with Don... I do not, however, think that ...", as though you were disagreeing with him on some point. A re-reading shows this wasn't your intent, but it kind of came across that way to me when I first read it...

[DJS]

Perhaps the use of the *however* confused me, Nate.

[Grail]

I agree with Don, and especially with Nate. Even if there is an intelligence behind the creation of this universe, there is nothing to make me believe that it was the Christian God, let alone any God, behind it. However, you are on our side William, and you wish to work towards the advancement of technology unlike so many like-minded religious people. In our minds, nothing that you have said can restrict your access to the same technologies as we are interested in, neither can it restrict ours. To us, what you are saying has no more merit than a myth. As Nate said, as long as you don't impose your ideas on us, we will accept you. The question is, will you accept us? Can you put forth your ideas without making blanket statements like "your life depends on following what I say"? We have heard your ideas, and have no qualms with you pursuing them yourself. New information can be posted by you, as long as you don't expect most logical minds to agree.
Perhaps it is time that you move on from this and start making yourself heard in the other parts of this forum. You will accrue more respect here if you show that you are not all religious rhetoric.

[Live Forever]

Aah, ok. One of the big problems of the internet is getting your point across effectively. I apologize if it was unclear. The "however" was just from the previous statement of mine. I should have been clearer though, I can see how it could have been confusing.

[RighteousReason]

Jay, you cause me much frustration.

But I'll let this one drop.

[DJS]

Whatever you say, marlboro man. [tung]

[william]

qrail, so we all must admit the obvious, there is an intelligence behind creation. Am I correct? Now what should prevent us from then taking the next logical step to this intelligence having a plan for man that involves providing directions to man for how to achieve immortality? What if the first step in those directions requires that man develop the right type of character and socio-cultural setting so man can then attain the adequate level of intelligence needed for using the technique - or for creating and controlling the technique - necessary for immortality?

I would like you to consider what Herbert W. Armstrong wrote below in his free booklet entitled "What Science Can't Discover About The Human Mind" that's relevant to what I'm trying to say here. He wrote:


Why cannot the greatest minds solve world problems? Scientists have said, “Given sufficient knowledge, and we shall solve all human problems and cure all our evils.” However, as the world’s fund of knowledge rapidly increases, so too do humanity’s evils.

Why? Is something wrong with the human mind? Is something missing? There most certainly is a missing dimension in human knowledge. A human manufacturer sends along with the instrument or device he manufactures an instruction booklet describing what his product is intended to do with full directions for accomplishing its purpose. The most perfect mechanism ever designed and made is the marvelous mind and body that is man. And it is also only natural that our Maker sent along His instruction manual—revealing for our good what we are, why we are, where we are going, and what is the way.

That instruction book is the Holy Bible. Yet man has made this the most misunderstood, misinterpreted and maligned book that ever came into human hands.

Nevertheless, the missing dimension in knowledge is all there revealed. The incredible human potential is there revealed and made plain—if man would only read it—and believe what it says!

It is our source book. It reveals to us why we humans were put here on Earth—what we are—where we are going—the unrealized incredible human potential—how to operate this human mechanism of mind and body to live happily in peace and to achieve that awesome potential.

But the greatest human minds have never comprehended that divinely revealed knowledge. It is as if God our Maker had sent His message to us in an unbreakable secret code.

And the greatest human minds have never cracked that secret code. Modern science cannot understand it. Psychologists do not themselves understand of what the human mind is composed.

Something of supreme importance is missing from the greatest of human minds! That something is revealed within this instruction manual. It is not taught in any college or university. It is hidden from the worldly wise and prudent. The greatest mind which ever lived said of it, “I thank you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and prudent and have revealed them to babes” (Matt. 11:25, New King James Version).

http://www.thetrumpe...b...61§ion=1335

qrail, my dilemma is that I'm nobody of any consequence in this world that anybody should pay any special attention to me on this. I have no college degrees in anything. I'm on the family computer, but this could easily change due to problems I'm currently experiencing due to life's particular circumstances. So setting forth what I've learned in the other forums you mention might not be an option in the near future. It's hard to say.

Let me say again, I believe, for any new life extension techniques to work, scientific minds need to fashion or adopt a new and better understanding of the Bible that's in direct opposition to the false religions of the world. This new religion is going to have to satisfy God's requirements as stated in the Bible and have a very strong "reverence for life" ideal.

Edited by william, 05 June 2006 - 06:46 PM.

[william]

Notice the 6/12/06 article "Heaven or hell?" in "Science and Space" where it says:

"Other, equally eminent, minds believe we are on the cusp of an incredible disaster -- possibly even our own extinction -- as the technology we are so rapidly giving birth to moves beyond us, and self-replicates, casting us aside or even exterminating us."
http://edition.cnn.c...tion/index.html

Remember the warnings I gave you guys in my earlier posts in this forum. You science guys need to figure out how we're going to pick up the pieces after the "incredible disaster[s]" prophesied in the book of Revelation. May be you could consider starting a forum where we could debate how we should live after the major disasters happen.

[Live Forever]

I don't think many of us believe in that Revelations poppycock.

[DJS]

william

You science guys...

"Hey Mr. Science Guy... don't spray that aerosol in my eye... for... for I... I don't really wanna die. I'm a noble rabbit..."

need to figure out how we're going to pick up the pieces after the "incredible disaster[s]" prophesied in the book of Revelation.

Yeah, sorry I don't drink that Kool-Aid, william of occam.

[Grail]

We have always known we have the potential to destroy ourselves. This doesn't mean it will necessarily happen. If you really wish, the best idea= starting your own subsistence property deep in the middle of nowhere and staying there until the second coming...

If disasters happen, then we will deal with them the ways we have always done. It is obvious to see we will be facing problems in the future, and we don't need religous dogma to tell us this.

[U_N]

You science guys

That's Bill Nye THE science guy to you.

Something tells me that 'science guys' don't acknowledge the theory within the book of revalations.


DISCLAIMER: I am NOT Bill Nye

[william]

I just heard that Al Gore is going to be on TV tonight either on Larry King or some special. He said we got 10 years to straighten out the global warming mess or we're headed for serious disasters. You college kids are going to have to figure out something.

I wouldn't pester you young people with this Bible stuff if I didn't think it would be useful for creating a new civilization after the disasters prophesied in the Bible occur. Have you ever heard of the book called "Creating A New Civilization: The Politics of the Third Wave" (1994), by Alvin and Heidi Toffler? You guys should have a forum for debating some of the things those authors missed. May be you could develop plans for a "Kibbutz-Ark" or something that includes the safekeeping of immortality research so it can be continued in the new civilization.


Don, when you going to get a beard and some real length to that hair? By any chance did you see my picture I put on my avatar temporarily just to see if I could do it? On Sunday, my sister showed me how to take a picture off the web camera. She told me I have to have special software to make avatars like you and Live Forever have.

[maestro949]

. May be you could develop plans for a "Kibbutz-Ark" or something that includes the safekeeping of immortality research so it can be continued in the new civilization.

We have already done this. All current scientific knowledge is safely backed up and stored safely offline. Also, the new civilization has already been started. We have to keep it quiet or everyone will want in and there just isn't enough room for 6 billion people.

[william]

maestro949, I probably should of said something more specific like living communally- like on Israel's kibbutzim when they were functioning at their best - in an effort to model a new way of life that's nonpolluting and nondestructive and will last a thousand years or more without falling apart due to internal or external pressures. If the world suffers a series of severe disasters that become linked to global warming, I think the people that survive might not be too appreciative towards science and technology. You might want to keep a set of work clothes on under your laboratory outfit.

Ever since I read "Children of the Dream"(1969), by Bruno Bettelheim, "Kibbutz Goshen: An Israeli Commune"(1989), by Alison M. Bowe, and other literature on Israel's kibbutz program, I've been convinced that kibbutz life is the only logical direction a new civilization can take in the aftermath of any civilization shattering disasters. Somebody made a post in a bird flu forum recommending that people abolish private property as the quickest means of recovering should the bird flu become a major human to human pandemic and knock out the economy and bring down civilization in the process. I believe living communally would be the best possible way to organize socially to prevent future reoccurences of the bird flu and other communicable diseases where strict quarantines are necessary. History shows that large cities are just too cumbersome and problematic. They need to go the way of the dinosaurs.

[Live Forever]

William, I think technology can overcome any of the dramatic scenarios you are pointing out. (global warming, bird flu, etc.) I am not saying they are problems that shouldn't be worked on, rather just the opposite. Your ability to interweave real concerns with religious gobbledy gook is what makes some people think that you sound like a nut. I can see that you have real concerns, but I am of the opinion that technology will be able to prevent any type of "global disaster".

Could global warming cause suffering and death to millions? Yes. Could the bird flu do the same Yes. Will that spell the end of civilization? Most decidedly, No.
I agree we should work to curb global warming, stop the bird flu, or any other scenarios you could come up with, because it means less suffering and death, but I do think that technology will keep it from destroying all of society as you predict.

Also, on your point about cities, I think they are pretty dang efficient, and wouldn't want to change them. People being more spread out would be much less efficient (in terms of getting food and resources to them, having them able to work in close proximity with each other, etc.)

[william]

Live Forever, I'm going to respond to your post later. I want you to checkout this article below I got from a CR Society e-mail and tell me what you think.

Anti-Aging Molecule Discovered



By Kim Tae-gyu
Staff Reporter
A team of South Korean scientists on Sunday claimed to have created a ``cellular fountain of youth,’’ or a small molecule, which enables human cells to avoid aging and dying.

The team, headed by Prof. Kim Tae-kook at the Korea Advanced Institute of Science and Technology, argued the newly-synthesized molecule, named CGK733, can even make cells younger.

The findings were featured by the Britain-based Nature Chemical Biology online early today and will be printed as a cover story in the journal’s offline edition early next month.

``All cells face an inevitable death as they age. On this path, cells became lethargic and in the end stop dividing but we witnessed that CGK733 can block the process,’’ Kim said.

``We also found the synthetic compound can reverse aging, by revitalizing already-lethargic cells. Theoretically, this can give youth to the elderly via rejuvenating cells,’’ the 41-year-old said.

Kim expected that the CGK733-empowered drugs that keep cells youthful far beyond their normal life span would be commercialized in less than 10 years.

Other researchers here heaped praises on the discovery but they were cautious about the practical therapeutic application of the new substance.

``Obviously, it is an innovative finding. But we need to see whether or not CGK733 could really rejuvenate cells inside human bodies without generating side effects,’’ Prof. Kim Sung-hoon at Seoul National University said.

Prof. Kim Tae-kook, however, is confident about the commercial viability of CGK733, believing the efficiency of the material was created using state-of-the-art magnetic nano-probe technology.

``We have the magnet-associated technology to identify molecular targets inside living cells, which allowed us to examine the mechanisms of CGK733 directly,’’ Kim said.

``Unlike other research teams that must make candidates materials for drugs without being able to see their intra-cell activities, we know the precise mechanism of CGK733. So we have the better chance of making a success of the substance,’’ he continued.

Indeed, Kim basked in global recognition last June when he and his associates developed a technology dubbed MAGIC, short for magnetism-based interactive capture.

MAGIC uses fluorescent materials to check whether any drug can mix with targeted proteins inside the cell. The results were globally recognized by being printed by the U.S.-based journal Science at the time.

``MAGIC is kind of a source technology to see inside cells. Based on the method, we also found a pair of promising substances that can deal with cancers,’’ Kim said.

http://times.hankook...09433511780.htm

[Live Forever]

There is already a thread about that, William, this is not the right forum area for it:
http://www.imminst.o...&f=1&t=10999&s=

[Centurion]

What an insane thread. I've always believed that the problem of religion is not one of belief itself but one of imposing your own belief or value system upon others. Sadly, there is a very thin line between simply sharing your beliefs and imposing them, due to the persuasive potential of communication.

One of the best ways to avoid religious disagreement is to avoid discussing it in the first place

Perhaps I am somewhat biased in my perspective, maybe even a little severe in the eyes of those who live in more tolerant, liberal areas. Yet after having seen my country torn apart by a conflict of religion and politics (the two often interchangably mixed) I find avoidance the best tactic.

[maestro949]

william, we don't need communal living nor doe we need to tear down our cities. whatever disasters may come, humanity will overcome. We have instincts and survival skills still and they will quickly surface as soon as they are needed. If bird flu hits, we'll quarantine and if we can't, their is evolution. If terrorists attack, we'll pick up the pieces and rebuild. If we get hit with an asteroid or comet we'll mop up the mess and rebuild. nuclear war? those left will migrate to where the the lowest levels of radiation are. At some point we'll be able to economically colonize mars and the moon. Humanity will be fine william. Bible or no bible.

[RighteousReason]

Humanity will be fine william. Bible or no bible.

I seriously doubt we will be fine. Bible or no Bible.

And I don't think there will be any "pieces to pick up", either.


Not that we have no chance at all (we do). But we are going to need some luck.

[rjws]

I think Humanity is evolving, It still has a few barbaric traits that are telling but on and all were getting there. Relgion will be shed as we go once death is defeated it will only be a solace for the slow minded. I think the really smart religious guys are more like us with a desire to keep living in some existence or another.

[RighteousReason]

I think the really smart religious guys are more like us with a desire to keep living in some existence or another.

Although they are complete pussies... can't accept the responsibility of the truth.

[william]

Live Forever, thanks for giving me some consideration here. I appreciate that. I also realize that if you guys thought my religious concerns were just plain "gobbledy gook", as you say, and you thought I was a "nut", you would either not respond to my posts or you would contact the moderator and have me kicked off these forums permanetly. I see religion as a very important concern in the world needing vigorous debate the same as anyother social or philosophical concern. I remember some old college textbooks titled "Philosophy and Religion." Apparently these matters were openly discussed in the classroom. I'm sure it's still done today isn't it?

It's also going to take strength of character to live a different way of life necessary to overcome global warming, the bird flu and the other serious problems with the way we live. And it's going to take a new and better understanding of the Bible, necessary to replace the false religions of the world, to accomplish that. Technology won't be able to do it.

Now let me go see what young hankconn's problem is.

Edited by william, 14 June 2006 - 11:36 PM.

[william]

Alright hankconn I'm here, where you hiding? Now put up your dukes! I'm socking your block off! You're a fine one to talk about not accepting the responsibity of the truth - Mr. Smoker. I thought you're the one who started this thread "down with the athiests"? What's going on here?

[RighteousReason]

What's going on here?

Don't ask because you will probably never figure it out.


[sfty]

[william]

What hank, you want somemore kick-butt? Just wait till that nicotine monkey gets on your back and starts to whipping your butt. When you get older, you'll probably realize a need to quit but might not have the willpower, that comes from strength of character, necessary to do so. The new pill technology might not work for you or cause severe side effects. http://heartdisease....rimonabant2.htm.
One of those 12-step programs for smokers isn't going to work for you either because your philosophy of science doesn't permit a belief in a higher power. What you going to do if the nicotine reaper comes for you earlier than expected and the new anti-aging molecule those Korean scientists are working on doesn't pan out as expected? You putting all your faith in new, unproven technology too?

[Grail]

[huh]

Why would the bible improve our chances in the face of these disasters? events hinted at within will be continually misinterpreted until something actually happens, which will be too late. Whether the book holds any truth is irrelevant.
Dinosaurs? I thought you religious folks didn't believe in them. Funny metaphor to use.