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best premade nootropic formula


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#1 turbo

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Posted 04 May 2006 - 01:36 PM


my father and I are going to be trying the same kind of nootropics, and i want to deal with a premade formula.

i'm looking for any recommendations (please include a source for the product as well if possible) on a good premade, well balanced nootropic formula. some guidelines:
1) no alcar if there's not sufficient rla to balance it (excludes orthomind from relentless)
2) should be reasonably affordable (probably eliminates formulas based on gpc/racetam blends, but who knows?)
3) should have bacopa, vinpocetine, and some of the other 'essentials'.
4) prefer for it to have no DMAE, as i've read mixed reviews and haven't been convinced it's not completely safe/useful

any help would be greatly appreciated. i have a couple in mind, but both have a couple disadvantages. my 'ideal' would be something along the lines of: bacopa, huperzine, vinpocetine, ginkgo, some choline maybe, and potentially any of the following: tyrosine, alcar+rla combo, racetams + GPC, etc). to be honest, please share even if it's a kind of expensive formula, because i may still be interested in just usign it at 1/2 strength if the ingredients are quality/ good ratios. (ortho mind is still excluded because it really isn't a stand alone product, it needs a separate rla component, whihc puts it in the way expensive category).

any help is hugely appreciated, thanks in advance everyone

#2 doug123

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Posted 04 May 2006 - 07:35 PM

Dude, turbo! What's up bro? Haven't we been through this before in another forum or what?! I think my answer will be pretty similar to my previous attempt.

If you are interested in trying nootropic therapy, you should probably start out somewhat simple -- if you start taking too much at once, how are you supposed to know what really works? You already told us you take adderall -- and I tried to convince you that d-amphetamine is better...have you tried that yet?

Anyways, I would suggest starting out with a simple combination like aniracetam or oxiracetam plus alpha gpc. I sell that stuff at my store -- I won't really advertise it here until the vibe changes a bit though..I know that Pete from Relentless Improvement has conducted an extensive analysis of his Aniracetam -- which, unlike the stuff I sell, has been independently tested by HPLC (High Performance Liquid Chromatography) and came out to be 99.55% pure; free of lead and microbiological contamination -- and he already has it in capsules. I currently only have the raw material, as you may already know. So I would suggest, to start (as I did before):

~800 mg Aniracetam twice daily with meals
and/or
~800 mg Oxiracetam twice daily with meals

I know you already have some Alpha GPC, right? Well the dose I would suggest of that would be 900 mg of the 60% or 1000 mg (1 gram) of the 50% -- both twice daily with meals.

I would link you to the other forum to see the research on these, but want to chill on linking to other forums...for now, at least.

These results were primarily with elderly and demented folks, but the results and implications for improvement of memory are still compelling:

http://www.ncbi.nlm....st_uids=8199398
Aniracetam. An overview of its pharmacodynamic and pharmacokinetic properties, and a review of its therapeutic potential in senile cognitive disorders.

Lee CR, Benfield P.

Adis International Limited, Auckland, New Zealand.

Aniracetam is a member of the nootropic class of drugs, which have possible cognition enhancing effects. It appears to positively modulate metabotropic glutamate receptors and alpha-amino-3-hydroxy-5-methyl-4-isoxazolepropionic acid (AMPA)-sensitive glutamate receptors, and may facilitate cholinergic transmission, effects which are possibly related to its mechanism of action. Results from trials in elderly patients with mild to moderate cognitive impairment due to senile dementia of the Alzheimer type suggest that aniracetam may be of benefit, with further trials required to confirm its efficacy profile and to define more precisely those patients most likely to respond to treatment. Aniracetam 1500 mg/day was significantly more effective than placebo in all tests at 4 and 6 months, and in a further 6-month trial was more effective than piracetam 2400 mg/day in 8 of 18 tests. Preliminary evidence in the treatment of patients with cognitive impairment of cerebrovascular origin suggests aniracetam may also be of benefit in this condition. Whilst incidence rates of adverse effects are not yet available, data from trials suggest aniracetam is well tolerated. In particular, aniracetam does not appear to cause increases in liver enzyme levels. The evaluation of drugs for patients with senile cognitive disorders is a difficult area and therapeutic options are currently limited. Preliminary evidence of the potential benefits and good tolerability profile of aniracetam support continued evaluation of its use in patients with mild to moderate senile dementia of the Alzheimer type.



http://www.ncbi.nlm....st_uids=1867125
Acta Neurol (Napoli). 1991 Feb;13(1):1-12.

A clinical and neurophysiological trial on nootropic drugs in patients with mental decline.

Gallai V, Mazzotta G, Del Gatto F, Montesi S, Mazzetti A, Dominici P, Della Monica A.

Istituto di Clinica Delle Malattie Nervose e Mentali Universita di Perugia, Milano.

The different expressions of mental decline in elderly people, from simple senile benign forgetfulness to SDAT, can be evaluated by psychometric and neurophysiological tests. In the present study, the effects of oxiracetam, piracetam and placebo were compared in a group of elderly subjects. The results of the trial, structured as single blind, clearly showed that nootropics positively effect both clinical and neurophysiological performances and that oxiracetam produces a more pronounced effect when compared to piracetam. In fact, oxiracetam was found more effective in improving psychometric scales such as GDS (clinical performances) as well as the amplitude and the latency of the P300 (neurophysiological performances), which reflect a functional recovery of the cerebral pathways related to attention and memory.Publication Types:
Clinical Trial
Controlled Clinical Trial

PMID: 1867125 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]


http://www.ncbi.nlm....t_uids=12637119
Clin Ther. 2003 Jan;25(1):178-93.

Cognitive improvement in mild to moderate Alzheimer's dementia after treatment with the acetylcholine precursor choline alfoscerate (Alpha GPC): a multicenter, double-blind, randomized, placebo-controlled trial.

De Jesus Moreno Moreno M.

Instituto Nacional de la Senectud, Mexico City, Mexico.

BACKGROUND: Parallel with the development of hypotheses regarding cholinergic involvement in geriatric memory dysfunction, the first attempts to treat patients with Alzheimer's disease (AD) involved the cholinergic-precursor loading approach. Despite encouraging early results, well-controlled clinical trials did not confirm a clinical utility of cholinergic precursors such as choline and lecithin (phosphatidylcholine) in AD. OBJECTIVE: This study assessed the efficacy and tolerability of the cholinergic precursor choline alfoscerate (CA) in the treatment of cognitive impairment due to mild to moderate AD. METHODS: In this multicenter, double-blind, randomized, placebo-controlled trial, patients affected by mild to moderate dementia of the Alzheimer type were treated with CA (Alpha GPC) (400-mg capsules) or placebo capsules, 3 times daily, for 180 days. Efficacy outcome measures that were assessed at the beginning of the investigation and after 90 and 180 days of treatment included scores of the Alzheimer's Disease Assessment Scale-Cognitive Subscale (ADAS-Cog), the Mini-Mental State Examination (MMSE), the Global Deterioration Scale (GDS), the Alzheimer's Disease Assessment Scale-Behavioral Subscale (ADAS-Behav), all items of the Alzheimer's Disease Assessment Scale (ADAS-Total), and the Clinical Global Impression (CGI) scale. The Global Improvement Scale (GIS) score was assessed after 90 and 180 days of treatment. RESULTS: A total of 261 patients (132 in the CA group, 129 in the placebo group) were enrolled in the study. The mean (SD) age in the CA group was 72.2(7.5) years (range, 60-80 years), and in the placebo group it was 71.7 (7.4) years(range, 60-80 years). The CA group comprised 105 women and 27 men; the placebo group, 94 women and 35 men. The mean decrease in ADAS-Cog score in patients treated with CA was 2.42 points after 90 days of treatment and 3.20 points at the end of the study (day 180) (P < 0.001 vs baseline for both), whereas in patients receiving placebo the mean increase in ADAS-Cog score was 0.36 point <1 after 90 days of treatment and 2.90 points after 180 days of treatment(P < 0.001 vs baseline). In the CA (Alpha GPC) group, all other assessed parameters (MMSE,GDS, ADAS-Behav, ADAS-Total, and CGI) consistently improved after 90 and 180 days versus baseline, whereas in the placebo group they remained unchanged or worsened. Statistically significant differences were observed between treatments after 90 and 180 days in ADAS-Cog, MMSE, GDS, ADAS-Total, and CGI scores and after 180 days of treatment in ADAS-Behav and GIS scores. CONCLUSION: The results of this study suggest the clinical usefulness and tolerability of CA (Alpha GPC) in the treatment of the cognitive symptoms of dementia disorders of the Alzheimer type.

Publication Types:

* Clinical Trial
* Multicenter Study
* Randomized Controlled Trial


PMID: 12637119 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

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#3 lanky

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Posted 05 May 2006 - 03:18 PM

I'd go with the nootropics kamil recommended. Except I would recommend ~1600mg of each, not 800mg. And, don't forget to take your omega-3 fatty acids. It's good stuff, although it may not taste like it.

#4 turbo

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Posted 05 May 2006 - 03:48 PM

adam, i really appreciated our talks. i actually just launched a new company this week, so i'm kind of doing full time school and running 2 distinct business, plus doing athletic training, so premixing anything is completely out of the question. my first choice is ortho mind, but you need to add in so much more rla to it that the price just becomes unreasonable.

lanky, i'm a bodybuilder, i prolly take 10X the efa's anyone else here does haha. seriously thouhg i probably have ten pills daily of fish oil

any suggestions on quality, premade formulas would be greatly appreciated. somethign where i can buy 1 bottle and have everything in it, no mix and match, and no powders. price should be reasonable, and product should not contain dmae. should contain bacopa, vinpocetine, and ginkgo as minimums

#5 lanky

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Posted 05 May 2006 - 04:11 PM

http://www.relentles.../ortho-mind.htm

Are you looking for a combination with some racetams, too? I don't think you'll be able to find a product like that. I haven't, at least.

#6 Shepard

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Posted 05 May 2006 - 06:47 PM

lanky, i'm a bodybuilder, i prolly take 10X the efa's anyone else here does haha.  seriously thouhg i probably have ten pills daily of fish oil


This isn't BB.com, playa. 3g EPA/DHA is for sickly women.

Anyway, I agree that you aren't going to find a pre-mixed stack to suit you. Instead of taking 6 pills of a pre-mixed stack, why not 6 individual pills of different supplements?

#7 turbo

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Posted 06 May 2006 - 02:07 AM

I'd go with the nootropics kamil recommended. Except I would recommend ~1600mg of each, not 800mg. And, don't forget to take your omega-3 fatty acids. It's good stuff, although it may not taste like it.


i don't want to drink powders or encapsulate them. i am *only* interested in premade pills i can just pop.

#8 turbo

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Posted 06 May 2006 - 02:18 AM

http://www.relentles.../ortho-mind.htm

Are you looking for a combination with some racetams, too? I don't think you'll be able to find a product like that. I haven't, at least.



doesn't need racetams. basically as long as it has ginkgo and bacopa i'm good, but i'd really like it to have vinpocetine and huperzine as well. maybe choline too. and all of those in good strengths/quantities

the product in your link was my #1 choice, except that it isn't a standalone product, you need to supplement more rla into it, which is laughably expensive, so that counts that one out

#9 turbo

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Posted 06 May 2006 - 02:22 AM

lanky, i'm a bodybuilder, i prolly take 10X the efa's anyone else here does haha.  seriously thouhg i probably have ten pills daily of fish oil


This isn't BB.com, playa. 3g EPA/DHA is for sickly women.

Anyway, I agree that you aren't going to find a pre-mixed stack to suit you. Instead of taking 6 pills of a pre-mixed stack, why not 6 individual pills of different supplements?

i know this ain't bb.com, but that doesn't mean i'm not a bodybuilder (see pic....); fish oil is a great supplement, but my pills are only 300mg epa/dha per 1000mg fish body oil, so taking like 5-10 really isn't that much, depending on what you're aiming to achieve.

i have found some stacks that are pretty much what i need, the best one has dmae tho, so i don't want to take that one because i'm not convinced dmae is a great thing to take.

i won't get different pills and mix because it's not worth the time/hassle. my father is gonna be hard to get to take these in the first place, let alone getting him on a regime, and forget about mixing certain powders at certain times of the day. only concerned with a good premade formula here.

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#10 Shepard

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Posted 06 May 2006 - 03:31 AM

I was just joking around with you. Although, what really constitutes a body-builder these days? I hear people throw this phrase around all the time, similar to the thousands of "racers" we had after those damn F&F movies came out.

Although, I'm certainly not taking anything away from your efforts. You have a very appealing physique.

Anyway, I would try out LEF's Cognitex (without Pregnenolone). It doesn't have bacopa or gingko, which I would add....along with creatine. I understand why you would want a stand-alone product, especially for your father...I'm in the same situation with my parents and I'm on the fence between Ortho-Mind and Cognitex.

#11 doug123

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Posted 06 May 2006 - 07:26 AM

Dude, turbo -- are you trying to assert yourself as the alpha-male of the bunch or what with that bod-pic? Are we all supposed to take our shirts off and compare? :) [huh]

I think you should go with higher dose ALCAR + RALA. Maybe even add some NAC? Like I've suggested before, that would probably be most beneficial for you if you consider yourself a "body builder" type. If you exercise intensively, your glutathione and other natural endogenous antioxidant's levels are probably lower than normal.

Exerc Immunol Rev. 2004;10:129-41.

Neutrophil activation, antioxidant supplements and exercise-induced oxidative stress.

Peake J, Suzuki K.

School of Human Sciences and Consolidated Research Institute for Advanced Science and Medical Care, Waseda University.

Neutrophils produce free radicals known as reactive oxygen species (ROS), which assist in the clearance of damaged host tissue. Tissue damage may occur during exercise due to muscle damage, thermal stress and ischaemia/reperfusion. When produced in excess, neutrophil-derived ROS mayoverwhelm the body's endogenous antioxidant defence mechanisms, and this can lead to oxidative stress. There is increasing evidence for links between oxidative stress and a variety of pathological disorders such as cardiovascular diseases, cancer, chronic inflammatory diseases and post-ischaemic organ injury. A small number of studies have investigated whether there is a link between neutrophil activation and oxidative stress during exercise. In this review, we have summarised the findings of these studies. Exercise promotes the release of neutrophils into the circulation, and some evidence suggests that neutrophils mobilised after exercise have an enhanced capacity to generate some forms of ROS when stimulated in vitro. Neutrophil activation during exercise may challenge endogenous antioxidant defence mechanisms, but does not appear to increase lipid markers of oxidative stress to any significant degree, at least in the circulation. Antioxidant supplements such as N-acetylcysteine are effective at attenuating increases in the capacity of neutrophils to generate ROS when stimulated in vitro, whereas vitamin E reduces tissue infiltration of neutrophils during exercise. Free radicals generated during intense exercise may lead to DNA damage in leukocytes, but it is unknown if this damage is the result of neutrophil activation. Exercise enhances the expression of inducible haem (heme)-oxygenase (HO-1) in neutrophils after exercise, however, it is uncertain whether oxidative stress is the stimulus for this response.

Publication Types:
Review

PMID: 15633591 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]


Mol Cell Biochem. 1999 Jun;196(1-2):31-42.

Glutathione homeostasis in response to exercise training and nutritional supplements.

Sen CK.

Environmental Energies Technologies Division, University of California at Berkeley, 94720, USA.

Glutathione plays a central role in the maintenance of tissue antioxidant defenses and in the regulation of redox sensitive signal transduction. In muscle cells, the level and redox status of GSH regulates activity of the redox sensitive transcription factor NF-kappaB. Physical exercise may cause oxidation of GSH in tissues such as the blood, skeletal muscle and liver. Endurance training strengthened GSH dependent tissue antioxidant defenses in most studies. Although studies investigating the effect of sprint training are few, current results show that sprint training may also have a beneficial effect on tissue GSH homeostasis. Skeletal muscle GSH level appears to be tightly regulated by the state of physical activity. Regular exercise enhances and chronic inactivity decreases the level of GSH in this tissue. N-acetyl-L-cysteine (NAC) and alpha-lipoic acid (LA) are two antioxidant dietary supplements that are able to enhance cellular GSH levels. Because LA can be recycled to its potent dithiol form, dihydrolipoate, by enzymes present in the human cell it has a clear advantage over NAC. Recently an improved form of LA, a positively charged analogue (LA-Plus), has been discovered. LA-Plus has more potent immuno-modulatory activity compared to LA. Both LA and NAC have been shown to have beneficial effects in protecting tissue GSH homeostasis against exercise induced oxidative stress.

Publication Types:
Review

PMID: 10448900 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Am J Clin Nutr. 2000 Aug;72(2 Suppl):653S-69S.

Thiol homeostasis and supplements in physical exercise.

Sen CK, Packer L.

Departments of Surgery and Molecular & Cellular Biochemistry, The Ohio State University Medical Center, Columbus, OH 43210-1252, USA. sen-1@medctr.osu.edu

Thiols are a class of organic sulfur derivatives (mercaptans) characterized by the presence of sulfhydryl residues. In biological systems, thiols have numerous functions, including a central role in coordinating the antioxidant defense network. Physical exercise may induce oxidative stress. In humans, a consistent marker of exercise-induced oxidative stress is blood glutathione oxidation. Physical training programs have specific effects on tissue glutathione metabolism that depend on the work program and the type of tissue. Experimental studies show that glutathione metabolism in several tissues sensitively responds to an exhaustive bout of exercise. Study of glutathione-deficient animals clearly indicates the central importance of having adequate tissue glutathione to protect against exercise-induced oxidative stress. Among the various thiol supplements studied, N-acetyl-L-cysteine and alpha-lipoic acid hold the most promise. These agents may have antioxidant effects at the biochemical level but are also known to influence redox-sensitive cell signaling.

Publication Types:
Review


Rev Pneumol Clin. 2005 Feb;61(1 Pt 1):16-21.

[Oxidative stress in bronchopulmonary disease: contribution of N-acetylcysteine (NAC)]

[Article in French]

Guerin JC, Leophonte P, Lebas FX, Liard F, Terrioux P, Boulanger P.

Service de Pneumologie, Hopital de la Croix-Rousse, 103, grande-rue de la Croix-Rousse, 69317 Lyon Cedex 04. jean-claude.guerin@chu-lyon.fr

Oxidative stress is a frequent mechanism involved in the pathogenesis of bronchopulmonary disease. The cause can be exogenous, in particular related to to atmospheric pollution and tobacco smoke, or endogenous, related to mobilization of inflammatory cells (macrophages and polymorphonuclear neutrophils). In this general review, we present work demonstrating this oxidative stress and activation of inflammatory cells. We discuss the effect of oxidative stress on the bronchial tree and the need to maintain an adequate balance between oxidants and anti-oxidants.This reviews focuses on experimental studies proving the anti-oxidant effect of NAC on glutathione synthesis and on different pharmacological models. We then discuss human trials, initially experimental then in different bronchopulmonary pathologies related to oxidative stress. Acetaminophen intoxication and pulmonary fibrosis are models for use of NAC.Recent work on COPD appears to show a decrease in exacerbations, improvement in symptoms and quality-of-life, and perhaps a reduction in the alteration of ventilatory function.

Publication Types:
Review

PMID: 15772575 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Cell Mol Life Sci. 2003 Jan;60(1):6-20.

Molecular mechanisms of N-acetylcysteine actions.

Zafarullah M, Li WQ, Sylvester J, Ahmad M.

Departement de Medecine, Centre de Recherche du Centre Hospitalier de l'Universite de Montreal, Lab. K-5255 Mailloux, Hopital Notre-Dame du CHUM, 1560 Sherbrooke est, Montreal, Quebec H2L 4M1, Canada. Muhammad.Zafarullah@umontreal.ca

Oxidative stress generated by an imbalance between reactive oxygen species (ROS) and antioxidants contributes to the pathogenesis of arthritis, cancer, cardiovascular, liver and respiratory diseases. Proinflammatory cytokines and growth factors stimulate ROS production as signaling mediators. Antioxidants such as N-acetylcysteine (NAC) have been used as tools for investigating the role of ROS in numerous biological and pathological processes. NAC inhibits activation of c-Jun N-terminal kinase, p38 MAP kinase and redox-sensitive activating protein-1 and nuclear factor kappa B transcription factor activities regulating expression of numerous genes. NAC can also prevent apoptosis and promote cell survival by activating extracellular signal-regulated kinase pathway, a concept useful for treating certain degenerative diseases. NAC directly modifies the activity of several proteins by its reducing activity. Despite its nonspecificity, ability to modify DNA and multiple molecular modes of action, NAC has therapeutic value for reducing endothelial dysfunction, inflammation, fibrosis, invasion, cartilage erosion, acetaminophen detoxification and transplant prolongation.
Publication Types:
Review

Altern Med Rev. 1998 Apr;3(2):114-27.

Clinical applications of N-acetylcysteine.

Kelly GS.

Alternative Medicine Review, Greenwich, CT.

N-acetylcysteine (NAC), the acetylated variant of the amino acid L-cysteine, is an excellent source of sulfhydryl (SH) groups, and is converted in the body into metabolites capable of stimulating glutathione (GSH) synthesis, promoting detoxification, and acting directly as free radical scavengers. Administration of NAC has historically been as a mucolytic agent in a variety of respiratory illnesses; however, it appears to also have beneficial effects in conditions characterized by decreased GSH or oxidative stress, such as HIV infection, cancer, heart disease, and cigarette smoking. An 18-dose oral course of NAC is currently the mainstay of treatment for acetaminophen-induced hepatotoxicity. N-acetylcysteine also appears to have some clinical usefulness as a chelating agent in the treatment of acute heavy metal poisoning, both as an agent capable of protecting the liver and kidney from damage and as an intervention to enhance elimination of the metals.

Publication Types:
Review

PMID: 9577247 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

#12 turbo

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Posted 07 May 2006 - 01:38 AM

Dude]

I think you should go with higher dose ALCAR + RALA.  Maybe even add some NAC?  Like I've suggested before, that would probably be most beneficial for you if you consider yourself a "body builder" type.  If you exercise intensively, your glutathione and other natural endogenous antioxidant's levels are probably lower than normal.

Exerc Immunol Rev. 2004;10:129-41.

Neutrophil activation, antioxidant supplements and exercise-induced oxidative stress.

Peake J, Suzuki K.

School of Human Sciences and Consolidated Research Institute for Advanced Science and Medical Care, Waseda University.

Neutrophils produce free radicals known as reactive oxygen species (ROS), which assist in the clearance of damaged host tissue. Tissue damage may occur during exercise due to muscle damage, thermal stress and ischaemia/reperfusion. When produced in excess, neutrophil-derived ROS mayoverwhelm the body's endogenous antioxidant defence mechanisms, and this can lead to oxidative stress. There is increasing evidence for links between oxidative stress and a variety of pathological disorders such as cardiovascular diseases, cancer, chronic inflammatory diseases and post-ischaemic organ injury. A small number of studies have investigated whether there is a link between neutrophil activation and oxidative stress during exercise. In this review, we have summarised the findings of these studies. Exercise promotes the release of neutrophils into the circulation, and some evidence suggests that neutrophils mobilised after exercise have an enhanced capacity to generate some forms of ROS when stimulated in vitro. Neutrophil activation during exercise may challenge endogenous antioxidant defence mechanisms, but does not appear to increase lipid markers of oxidative stress to any significant degree, at least in the circulation. Antioxidant supplements such as N-acetylcysteine are effective at attenuating increases in the capacity of neutrophils to generate ROS when stimulated in vitro, whereas vitamin E reduces tissue infiltration of neutrophils during exercise. Free radicals generated during intense exercise may lead to DNA damage in leukocytes, but it is unknown if this damage is the result of neutrophil activation. Exercise enhances the expression of inducible haem (heme)-oxygenase (HO-1) in neutrophils after exercise, however, it is uncertain whether oxidative stress is the stimulus for this response.

Publication Types:
Review

PMID: 15633591 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]


Mol Cell Biochem. 1999 Jun;196(1-2):31-42.

Glutathione homeostasis in response to exercise training and nutritional supplements.

Sen CK.

Environmental Energies Technologies Division, University of California at Berkeley, 94720, USA.

Glutathione plays a central role in the maintenance of tissue antioxidant defenses and in the regulation of redox sensitive signal transduction. In muscle cells, the level and redox status of GSH regulates activity of the redox sensitive transcription factor NF-kappaB. Physical exercise may cause oxidation of GSH in tissues such as the blood, skeletal muscle and liver. Endurance training strengthened GSH dependent tissue antioxidant defenses in most studies. Although studies investigating the effect of sprint training are few, current results show that sprint training may also have a beneficial effect on tissue GSH homeostasis. Skeletal muscle GSH level appears to be tightly regulated by the state of physical activity. Regular exercise enhances and chronic inactivity decreases the level of GSH in this tissue. N-acetyl-L-cysteine (NAC) and alpha-lipoic acid (LA) are two antioxidant dietary supplements that are able to enhance cellular GSH levels. Because LA can be recycled to its potent dithiol form, dihydrolipoate, by enzymes present in the human cell it has a clear advantage over NAC. Recently an improved form of LA, a positively charged analogue (LA-Plus), has been discovered. LA-Plus has more potent immuno-modulatory activity compared to LA. Both LA and NAC have been shown to have beneficial effects in protecting tissue GSH homeostasis against exercise induced oxidative stress.

Publication Types:
Review

PMID: 10448900 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Am J Clin Nutr. 2000 Aug;72(2 Suppl):653S-69S.

Thiol homeostasis and supplements in physical exercise.

Sen CK, Packer L.

Departments of Surgery and Molecular & Cellular Biochemistry, The Ohio State University Medical Center, Columbus, OH 43210-1252, USA. sen-1@medctr.osu.edu

Thiols are a class of organic sulfur derivatives (mercaptans) characterized by the presence of sulfhydryl residues. In biological systems, thiols have numerous functions, including a central role in coordinating the antioxidant defense network. Physical exercise may induce oxidative stress. In humans, a consistent marker of exercise-induced oxidative stress is blood glutathione oxidation. Physical training programs have specific effects on tissue glutathione metabolism that depend on the work program and the type of tissue. Experimental studies show that glutathione metabolism in several tissues sensitively responds to an exhaustive bout of exercise. Study of glutathione-deficient animals clearly indicates the central importance of having adequate tissue glutathione to protect against exercise-induced oxidative stress. Among the various thiol supplements studied, N-acetyl-L-cysteine and alpha-lipoic acid hold the most promise. These agents may have antioxidant effects at the biochemical level but are also known to influence redox-sensitive cell signaling.

Publication Types:
Review


Rev Pneumol Clin. 2005 Feb;61(1 Pt 1):16-21.

[Oxidative stress in bronchopulmonary disease: contribution of N-acetylcysteine (NAC)]

[Article in French]

Guerin JC, Leophonte P, Lebas FX, Liard F, Terrioux P, Boulanger P.

Service de Pneumologie, Hopital de la Croix-Rousse, 103, grande-rue de la Croix-Rousse, 69317 Lyon Cedex 04. jean-claude.guerin@chu-lyon.fr

Oxidative stress is a frequent mechanism involved in the pathogenesis of bronchopulmonary disease. The cause can be exogenous, in particular related to to atmospheric pollution and tobacco smoke, or endogenous, related to mobilization of inflammatory cells (macrophages and polymorphonuclear neutrophils). In this general review, we present work demonstrating this oxidative stress and activation of inflammatory cells. We discuss the effect of oxidative stress on the bronchial tree and the need to maintain an adequate balance between oxidants and anti-oxidants.This reviews focuses on experimental studies proving the anti-oxidant effect of NAC on glutathione synthesis and on different pharmacological models. We then discuss human trials, initially experimental then in different bronchopulmonary pathologies related to oxidative stress. Acetaminophen intoxication and pulmonary fibrosis are models for use of NAC.Recent work on COPD appears to show a decrease in exacerbations, improvement in symptoms and quality-of-life, and perhaps a reduction in the alteration of ventilatory function.

Publication Types:
Review

PMID: 15772575 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Cell Mol Life Sci. 2003 Jan;60(1):6-20.

Molecular mechanisms of N-acetylcysteine actions.

Zafarullah M, Li WQ, Sylvester J, Ahmad M.

Departement de Medecine, Centre de Recherche du Centre Hospitalier de l'Universite de Montreal, Lab. K-5255 Mailloux, Hopital Notre-Dame du CHUM, 1560 Sherbrooke est, Montreal, Quebec H2L 4M1, Canada. Muhammad.Zafarullah@umontreal.ca

Oxidative stress generated by an imbalance between reactive oxygen species (ROS) and antioxidants contributes to the pathogenesis of arthritis, cancer, cardiovascular, liver and respiratory diseases. Proinflammatory cytokines and growth factors stimulate ROS production as signaling mediators. Antioxidants such as N-acetylcysteine (NAC) have been used as tools for investigating the role of ROS in numerous biological and pathological processes. NAC inhibits activation of c-Jun N-terminal kinase, p38 MAP kinase and redox-sensitive activating protein-1 and nuclear factor kappa B transcription factor activities regulating expression of numerous genes. NAC can also prevent apoptosis and promote cell survival by activating extracellular signal-regulated kinase pathway, a concept useful for treating certain degenerative diseases. NAC directly modifies the activity of several proteins by its reducing activity. Despite its nonspecificity, ability to modify DNA and multiple molecular modes of action, NAC has therapeutic value for reducing endothelial dysfunction, inflammation, fibrosis, invasion, cartilage erosion, acetaminophen detoxification and transplant prolongation.
Publication Types:
Review

Altern Med Rev. 1998 Apr;3(2):114-27.

Clinical applications of N-acetylcysteine.

Kelly GS.

Alternative Medicine Review, Greenwich, CT.

N-acetylcysteine (NAC), the acetylated variant of the amino acid L-cysteine, is an excellent source of sulfhydryl (SH) groups, and is converted in the body into metabolites capable of stimulating glutathione (GSH) synthesis, promoting detoxification, and acting directly as free radical scavengers. Administration of NAC has historically been as a mucolytic agent in a variety of respiratory illnesses; however, it appears to also have beneficial effects in conditions characterized by decreased GSH or oxidative stress, such as HIV infection, cancer, heart disease, and cigarette smoking. An 18-dose oral course of NAC is currently the mainstay of treatment for acetaminophen-induced hepatotoxicity. N-acetylcysteine also appears to have some clinical usefulness as a chelating agent in the treatment of acute heavy metal poisoning, both as an agent capable of protecting the liver and kidney from damage and as an intervention to enhance elimination of the metals.

Publication Types:
Review

PMID: 9577247 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]


i'm not trying to assert anything, i just know htat saying 'i'm a bodybuilder' doesn't give the real picture, and it is just as quick for me to add an attachment. no offense meant, i'm not trying to prove anything, tho i knew people would have to insinuate as such. that's ok to me tho, if you think that that's fine.

adam, i'm gonna be fully honest with you, i'm starting to lose a little of my reverence for you, as I CAN NEVER UNDERSTAND YOUR RESPONSES!! first off, you always make a page at least 10X longer by putting in a post that's 90% cut/pasted from some abstract, and the bottom line is that reading an abstract doesn't help me because i am not in an advanced enough stage to understand what the stuff REALLY means. i can read it and think 'yeah that sounds right', but that is meaningless without knowing more about the topics.

that being said, i don't want to know about this stuff, i just want to buy a quality formula that willmake me sharper mentally - quicker reaction time, better memory, speech, etc; my father will be taking it for the same reasons as well (he's real bad with calling my siblings and i by the wrong names).

i don't wnat special considerations because i'm a bodybuilder. i just want to know what product (singular....), would best fit the needs spelled out in the previous paragraph. if alcar+rla is really a better cognitive enhancer than a gpc+bacopa+vinpocetine+huperzine pill, then i'm all game. is that what you are saying? if that's the case, please recommend where a good source for the alcar/rla can be found. but if you're suggesting that in part because i lift, then i don't wnat you to continue making suggestions based upon that (i have everything in relation to my physical state under lock and key. it is the cognitive enhancement ONLY that i am concerned with. i already have the basics taken care of - challenging life in many ways, fish oil (high dosage as well), multis, amazingly meticulous diet, creatine, etc. I just want another pill to add to the roster, a creatine for my brain if you will.)

if anyone has any ideas please just throw links at me, even just links to lesser known (but reputable) noot stores. i've trolled all the known places, and bodybuilding.com and 1fast400.com (only looking at their premade formulas by 3rd party companies).

again, any help, and the help i've already received, is greatly appreciated.

#13 Shepard

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Posted 07 May 2006 - 01:57 AM

How about just creatine for your brain? It's pretty good at that, too. Bottom line = you aren't going to find any all-in-one product that is perfect. It seems you know the stuff you want, if you really want each of those...you're looking at taking each seperately. Or taking a base (Cognitex, Ortho-Mind, Get Smart, etc.) and adding stuff on top of it.

I tend to err on the side of Bacopa+Gingko+Choline donor+Vinpocetine being superior for cognitive enhancement than Alcar+Mito antioxidant.

#14 doug123

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Posted 07 May 2006 - 02:22 AM

I was kidding with you about the pic. You just have to admit it's pretty damn funny to be showing your abs and chest in the nootropic forum.

Dude, I am trying to study for a midterm -- I'm listening to Mozart -- trying to get "the effect" through my ER4 MicroPro Earphones -- these headphones are no joke. Did you know that listening to Mozart might have nootropic "spatial reasoning" IQ increasing effects? I personally think that all music can affect the brain way or another -- the Mozart "effect" I think can also be pretty similar to the Bach or Beethoven...or Brahms...effect. Maybe buy some Mozart next time instead of Piracetam?

Check this out:
http://www.newscient...le.ns?id=dn4918

Rhythmic qualities

Scientists argued over whether the phenomenon had a relatively simple explanation, such as just improving a person's mood, or if the effect was tied to a unique quality of the Mozart's compositions. One study reported that the particular rhythmic qualities of Mozart's music mimic some rhythmic cycles occurring in human brains.

Now Rauscher and her collaborator Hong Hua Li, a geneticist at Stanford University in California, think they have found the molecular basis of the Mozart effect. Their study used rats, which, like humans, perform better on learning and memory tests after listening to the sonata.

The researchers found that these smarter rats had increased gene expression of BDNF, a neural growth factor, CREB, a learning and memory compound, and synapsin I, a synaptic growth protein, in their hippocampus, as compared to control rats who had listened to equivalent amounts of white noise.

"The findings are intriguing," says Howard Gardner, an IQ expert at Harvard University in Cambridge, Massachusetts, and sceptic of the Mozart effect. "It suggests stimulation in general has measurable neurochemical effects. But whether this effect is due to music, let alone Mozart, still has to be determined." Other experiments have shown that enriching a rat's environment with toys can spur growth of new neurons.


The reason I suggest you take ALCAR + RALA + NAC is because that should protect your body from damage from excess free radicals -- and give you a significant energy boost too. It's not a "specialized body-builder formula" I'm suggesting you try, turbo -- it's one special tailored to someone who exercises a lot. How long do your workouts last, in general? I go to the gym every two days these days...and I probably spend about two to two and a half hours in the gym. My school's gym is pretty badass.

ALCAR HCL (2.4 grams or more per day if you weigh about 70 kg) also reduces fatigue (both mental and physical!). I gotta go now -- I'm trying to tell you, turbo -- what I think the most important problem I think you should address considering you work out a lot. Taking an "all in one" supplement might miss the target. I guess to simplify things I could suggest Ortho Mind -- but I don't know if it's the best for your cash -- WHAT is your budget, and perhaps more importantly, how much do you "actually" work out?

I would suggest 2.4 grams ALCAR in two divided doses and 400 mg of elemental R-alpha-lipoic acid in two divided doses (through k-rala or rlamct25 -- Pete the forum sponsor sells these products encapsulated -- I think -- I currently sell the raw material -- the GeroNova products preencapsulated are not cheap -- but you get what you pay for anyways). The R-alpha-lipoic acid should also help "shuttle" creatine into your tissues as well -- and R-ala also seems to also function like insulin and helps control your blood sugar. I would also suggest 400-600mg N-acetylcysteine -- as these together have been shown to enhance cellular GSH levels.

http://www.psychosom...t/full/66/2/276

Exploratory Open Label, Randomized Study of Acetyl- and Propionylcarnitine in Chronic Fatigue Syndrome
Ruud C. W. Vermeulen, MD, PhD and Hans R. Scholte, PhD
From the Research Center Amsterdam, Amsterdam, Netherlands.

Address correspondence and reprint requests to Ruud Vermeulen, MD, PhD, CFS Research Center Amsterdam, Waalstraat 25, Amsterdam, 1078 BR, Netherlands. E-mail: info@cfscentrumamsterdam.nl

OBJECTIVES: We compared the effects of acetylcarnitine, propionylcarnitine and both compounds on the symptoms of chronic fatigue syndrome (CFS).

METHODS: In an open, randomized fashion we compared 2 g/d acetyl-L-carnitine, 2 g/d propionyl-L-carnitine, and its combination in 3 groups of 30 CFS patients during 24 weeks. Effects were rated by clinical global impression of change. Secondary endpoints were the Multidimensional Fatigue Inventory, McGill Pain Questionnaire, and the Stroop attention concentration test. Scores were assessed 8 weeks before treatment; at randomization; after 8, 16, and 24 weeks of treatment; and 2 weeks later.

RESULTS: Clinical global impression of change after treatment showed considerable improvement in 59% of the patients in the acetylcarnitine group and 63% in the propionylcarnitine group, but less in the acetylcarnitine plus propionylcarnitine group (37%). Acetylcarnitine significantly improved mental fatigue (p = .015) and propionylcarnitine improved general fatigue (p = .004). Attention concentration improved in all groups, whereas pain complaints did not decrease in any group. Two weeks after treatment, worsening of fatigue was experienced by 52%, 50%, and 37% in the acetylcarnitine, propionylcarnitine, and combined group, respectively. In the acetylcarnitine group, but not in the other groups, the changes in plasma carnitine levels correlated with clinical improvement.

CONCLUSIONS: Acetylcarnitine and propionylcarnitine showed beneficial effect on fatigue and attention concentration. Less improvement was found by the combined treatment. Acetylcarnitine had main effect on mental fatigue and propionylcarnitine on general fatigue.


I can post those abstracts real easy 'cause they are straight from my forum...I would insert all the crazy colors and large fonts but...won't...

#15 doug123

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Posted 07 May 2006 - 09:42 PM

Since you are just about to drop nootropics in exchange for the Mozart effect; let me quickly suggest among my favorite Mozart sets that I enjoy the most when I have a lot of homework to do:

Music for the Mozart Effect, Vol. 4: Focus and Clarity: Music for Projects and Study; by Don Campbell.

Click here for a price listing via froogle

There are some other really sweet Mozart selections; but this is a great 2 CD set to start off with if you are a Mozart novice.

#16 doug123

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Posted 07 May 2006 - 10:29 PM

And this is cool info too:
Link to source page

Posted Image

Posted Image

New York Times: Science Times section, May 16, 1995

The Mystery of Music: How it Works In the Brain

Synopsis: Parallels between the evolution of language and music.


Quotes: "The ability to perceive and enjoy music is an inborn human trait" * "The first musical instrument was probably the human voice. As language flourished, so did music, with different cultures inventing different types of resonators. While language was used to transmit knowledge, music was used to promote social cohesion through shared tribal rituals." -- Dr. Mark Tramo


Posted Image

Boston Magazine: October 1995

Note Well: Childhood Music Lessons Yield Some Rewards That Parents Can't Hear

By: Tricia Gray

Synopsis: Musical structure and brain organization.


Quotes: "Music involves organizing information and organizing cognitive abilities," says Mark Tramo, a neurobiologist at Harvard Medical school. "All the frequencies that comprise sounds can be manipulated, bringing order. If we expose someone to music they will encounter structures like octaves and scales, and they will be using their brain -- so when the task becomes going to school and learning long division, they may be more insightful because of their cognitive training."

Posted Image

APA Monitor (American Psychological Association): July 1997

Musical studies Provide Clues to Brain Functions

By Beth Azar

Synopsis: Lateralization of musical faculties


Quote: "The jury is still out," said Tramo. "But it still looks like lateralization isn't as strong for music as it is for language. Still it is fascinating that the so-called 'minor' hemisphere might play a leading role in certain aspects of music perception and cognition," Tramo said.


Posted Image

Associated Press: November 9, 1998

Music May Help Neurological Therapy

By: Jane E. Allen


Quote: "Undeniably, there is a biology of music," said Dr. Mark Jude Tramo, a neurobiologist at Harvard University Medical School. "Music is biologically part of a human life, as music is artistically part of a human life."

Posted Image

LA Times, 1996

Brain Comes Alive to Sound of Music

Quote: "There is no question that there is specialization in the brain for the processing of music," said Harvard neurobiologist Mark Jude Tramo.


Posted Image

Scholastic News (for kids) -- September 28, 1998

Does Music Make You Smarter?

By: Karen Fanning

Synopsis: Music and the development of cognitive abilities.


Quotes: Many of the same neurons that are used in music are also used in math, language, and thinking. Scientist believe that learning how to play an instrument like the piano or drums will not only make you a musician, it may make you a better student. "It's a lot like saying: If you exercise your body by doing calisthenics, you not only build your coordination, you also improve your ability to play football and tennis," says Mark Tramo.

Posted Image

Parade Magazine: June 14, 1998

Will Piano Lessons Make My Child Smarter?

Synopsis: Playing music may improve learning, memory, logic, and general creativity.


Quotes: "There's an overlap in the brain mechanism -- in the neurons used to process music, language, mathematics and abstract reasoning," says Dr. Mark Tramo, a neuroscientist at Harvard Medical School. "We believe a handful of neural codes is used by the brain, so exercising the brain through music strengthens other cognitive skills. It's a lot like saying" If you exercise your body by running, you enhance your ability not only to run but also to play soccer or basketball."


Posted Image

Boston Globe: April 19, 1997

Quotes of Note

Quote: "If you want to maximize your children's intellect, give them music lessons" -- Mark Tramo


Posted Image

New York Times:

Perfect Pitch Found on Left Side of the Brain

By: Sandra Blakeslee

Synopsis: Comment on possible hemispheric specializations for absolute pitch


Quote: "Many researchers have assumed that bigger is better and tried to correlate structure and function, said Dr. Mark Tramo, a neuroscientist and Harvard Medical School. But some argue that complex traits like language or music and embedded in microcircuits all over the brain. The right hemisphere 'does well with single word comprehension,' Dr. Tramo said. But the extraordinary talent for music, language, or other complex human traits might be related to details of micro circuitry all over the brain, he said."


Posted Image

Washington Post: December 15, 1997

For Geeks, It's Music to Their Ears

By: Mark Leibovich

Synopsis: Music and intellect


Quote: Theories abound as to why techies form bands. The phenomenon even has a scientific basis, experts say. "There is a great deal of overlap with the intellectual aspects of math and music," said Mark Tramo, a brain scientist at Harvard Medical School who has studied the effects of music on human cognition.

#17 zoolander

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Posted 08 May 2006 - 12:53 AM

Adam,

are you aware that you have completely change the topic? Turbo asked for advice on what the best pre-made nootropic formula is.

Best premade nootropic IMO is ortho-mind. I haven't used it but am very impressed with the ingredients.

#18 doug123

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Posted 08 May 2006 - 01:35 AM

Whoa dude, isn't this forum called Nootropics and Brain Enhancers? I think part of any nootropic formula would be music -- that seems to be as effective as nootropics themselves at making you smarter, dude. As far as answering turbo's question, I think I did a dandy job. I don't really see the connection between premade nootropic stacks and bod-shots of chest and abs -- why didn't you call turbo out on that?

I'm just providing food for thought.

Edited by nootropikamil, 08 May 2006 - 01:49 AM.


#19 zoolander

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Posted 08 May 2006 - 03:05 AM

The info about music is valid stuff and interesting info. Why not start a new post on it Adam. I would be interested to read and be involved with a post of that nature.

#20 turbo

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Posted 08 May 2006 - 12:42 PM

i would seriously appreciate it if you guys just let that die. adam, i'm def not gonna listen to mozart, so we can end that right there.

i would not get alcar/rla combo for an energy boost, because i can just as easily take cafffeine, ephedrine, yohimbine, b complex, amphetamine, whatever. and as far as workouts, i never ever spend more than 40 minutes working out. it is unnnecessary; in fact, if you're doing that long of a workout, i'd imagine a ton of it is cardio, but if you're really hitting the weights that long, pm me and i can help you tons with a new plan.

the other thing adam is that money doens't seem to be an object to you. i have a lot of money, but i am planning on buying a 4 unit home in january to begin my investing career, so i have stringent savings goals, and $80/month nootropics are not acceptable. (oh, for teh stress of training i am fully covered, i never ever experience overtraining, i get my recovery to be optimal through proper nutrition and strong antioxidants, just not rla).

How about just creatine for your brain? It's pretty good at that, too. Bottom line = you aren't going to find any all-in-one product that is perfect. It seems you know the stuff you want, if you really want each of those...you're looking at taking each seperately. Or taking a base (Cognitex, Ortho-Mind, Get Smart, etc.) and adding stuff on top of it.

I tend to err on the side of Bacopa+Gingko+Choline donor+Vinpocetine being superior for cognitive enhancement than Alcar+Mito antioxidant.


both my father and i are on creatine (haven't been off in years for longer than like 2 weeks combined throguh those years). i do not intend to find a perfect all in one, but i wnat to find the *best* one given my criteria. i know it won't be exact to the mg of what i want. hell, what i want may not even be optimal anyways. i like what you are describing, bacopa/ginkgo/vinpocetine/choline donor, i found one like that but the choline donor was dmae, and i have read that it could work in ways opposite of what you want, though i never got to the bottom of that. can you recommend a formula as you've described?

someone mentioned orthomind again. that is a great formula, *but* i wouldn't be able to take it w/o adding like 400mg daily rla to it, which throws it way way out of the reasonable price range.

#21 doug123

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Posted 08 May 2006 - 01:57 PM

Turbo, the Mozart thing I brought up because the evidence of nootropic effects from Mozart that I presented is just as compelling as the evidence that supports the use of nootropics.

I'll start a new topic on music later -- Zoolander. I see both of your points.

I have a midterm at 10am, so I am out. Peace.

#22 Elusive

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Posted 08 May 2006 - 07:30 PM

Although i am a fly on the wall compared to these noot knowledge giants on the forum but I would suggest that shepard is right on target! i have also experienced bad results with dame and my favorite choline donors are CDP choline and Choline bitartrate. just try 200 mg choline+150mg CDP choline at breakfast (open the capsules and take out the approx amount you want) and at lunch take 5 to 10 mg of vinpocetine
....i think that day you will feel like a rolls royce with a lamborghini engine. hopefully you wont need anything else after that....check out www.raysahelian.com and email me so i can send you a free copy of the e-book mind boosters....sometimes less is more ...and safe as well.
enjoy!
khalid rafiq. (aka lesterlong (like in mo-lester... ;)
wisecore@hotmail.com

#23 Elusive

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Posted 08 May 2006 - 07:34 PM

you can also try focus factor...(www.focusfactor.com) its a product with very little dame and suprisingly it didn't give me any bad side effect...actually i found it exciting...probably there is a lot of great stuff in it ...thats why!

#24 doug123

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Posted 08 May 2006 - 11:55 PM

Focus factor? Are you kidding? That stuff's a joke - at least I thought...I'm not trying to tease you or anything; but I thought that was a gimmick product as it looks more like a multi-vitamin than a cogntive enhancer.

Turbo: I go to the gym for 2-2.5 hours because I sort of kick it there. I have a couple of friends there who I sometimes chat with for a few minutes -- I'd meet more ladies but I'm shy -- there's a young woman in my Econ class I want to study with that I'm focused on now -- not that you asked.

And I only run for 10-20 minutes -- that's the last thing I do. I do several sets and can handle really heavy weights now that I have aquired a significant amount of muscle mass thanks to high dose protein (80-100 grams a day), creatine monohydrate (5-7 grams a day), RLAMCT25 (25% R-alpha-lipoic acid in medium chain trigycerides -- 800 mg twice a day -- empty stomach), L-carnosine (1.5 grams --empty stomach), ALCAR (2 grams twice daily -- empty stomach), NAC (600 mg -- empty stomach), Forslean (10% -- 500mg twice a day on an empty stomach), L-arginine HCL (3grams), L-tryosine (2 grams)...and a list of other supplements (NO MORE dopamine agonists!!!) too -- but the ones I just mentioned are specifically to attenuate the increased oxidative stress induced by serious physical excercise, to increase lean body mass, or to otherwise enhance physical performance -- without any serious side effects -- that I know of.

I generally take 300mg modafinil before I work out -- that makes my workouts no joke. I can't even handle 300mg if I am not working out. I'm about to go take this stack now and I'm off to the gym now. Here's a pic of part of my gym:

http://nootropics.ip...-1141109556.jpg

I have an Ipod nano 4gb I only use when I work out and it's pretty nifty!

Peace.

Edited by nootropikamil, 09 May 2006 - 12:06 AM.


#25 lanky

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Posted 09 May 2006 - 04:53 AM

Here's a pic of part of my gym:

http://nootropics.ip...-1141109556.jpg


Jebus. I wish my gym had that sort of demographics.

Is it healthy to take that much creatine a day? I heard you should take a one week break every two weeks, or something like that.

#26 doug123

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Posted 09 May 2006 - 06:26 AM

There always tend to be more ladies on those cardio machines -- I noticed the ladies at my school tend to really like the ones that strengthen the buttocks. It's not too often that you find UC college girls pumping iron -- sure, maybe one or two messing with the weights; but there are sections of the gym where it is pretty much always dudes. Like the pic below -- that's a Saturday so no one is there.

http://nootropics.ip...-1140243723.jpg

RE: creatine and kidneys: it's a good idea to have your kidney function tested regularly-- I am pretty sure your PCP can write up the script for you. But I do not think it will really hurt you as long as you don't do it forever and your kidney function is normal. I am a vegetarian -- so I need supplemental creatine, otherwise my IQ can dip significantly.

http://www.cptips.com/creatox.htm

http://news.bbc.co.u...lth/3145223.stm

#27 turbo

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Posted 09 May 2006 - 12:03 PM

made the order yesterday, got us cerebral by omega sports

http://bodybuilding..../omega/cer.html

has tyrosine to keep my dopamine levels higher if using amph, has dmae but only 100mg for every 5 cdapsules, so i wouldnt' even be hitting that level.


L-Tryosine 1400mg
Bacopa Monnieri 500mg
Acetyl L-Carnitine 300mg
Yerba Mate 300mg
Choline 250mg
Ginko Biloba 100mg
DMAE 100mg
Vinpocetine 10mg
Huperzine A 50mcg

so it has dmae, but not a ton, but it also has choline (must be bitartate form), yerba mate at 300mg (negligible caffeine unless it is an obscenely high concentration relative to most products), alcar at 300mg shouldn't be anything my multis can't eliminate the radicals from, bacopa at 500mg and ginkgo at 100mg were huge to me (i seem to be teh most convinced by studies on bacopa on healthy people), and then of course vinpocetine and huperzine.

the ratios seem to be decent, the choline donors are mixed but at least there's the 250mg of bitartate, and 100mg dmae can't be teh end of the world. It costs $21 / month to take the dosage listed above (5 pills daily), but i'll probably end up around 3-5, so 20/month is really my max cost, could be as low as mid-teens. not bad at all i don't think. no racetams, no expensive forms of anything (well, alcar would be debatable), just a general mix of some fo the basics in seemingly good ratios, plus the tyrosine, which i'm not so sure why it's there, but because i am sometimes on adderall (dextroamphetamine + some other amph isomers/analogues/whatever) the tyrosine woudl help keep dopamine in check.

thanks for the help everone, i'll probably be back after a couple bottles of this stuff, so see ya in a few months!

Edited by turbo, 09 May 2006 - 12:28 PM.


#28 Shepard

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Posted 09 May 2006 - 12:21 PM

Looks okay. A few things for thought:

Vinpocetine is best absorbed with food.
Bacopa/L-Tyrosine is best absorbed without.
It doesn't note what the amount of standardized bacosides.
Long term use of Huperzine A might not be the best idea, theoretically.

You might want to swap around after being on Cerebral for a couple of months....take a 1-2 week break and try a different formula to see which works best for you and your father.

#29 FunkOdyssey

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Posted 09 May 2006 - 04:57 PM

That's also an oddly small dose of Acetyl-L-Carnitine. I'm guessing they skimped there due to the cost.

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#30 Shepard

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Posted 09 May 2006 - 06:49 PM

I'm guessing it was added just to have it as an ingredient and not for any real benefit.




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