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Nicotinamide worse than nicotinic acid for homocysteine

nicotinamide niacinamide niacin homocysteine nicotinamide riboside nmn

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#1 Tom Andre F. (ex shinobi)

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Posted 11 November 2019 - 01:33 AM


Hello guys,

 

for those who followed our debate about nicotinamide/niacinamide and nicotinic acid as methyl traper in the past. I just found a study that make all things clear :

 

Niacinamide IS a methyltraper as well, and even a stronger one than nicotinic acid !

 

So people who take nicotinamide riboside or even NMN, dont forget most of it is converted back into basic niacinamide. So if you take dosage above 100mg a day you should play it safe and use all along a B12 supplement or/and betaine HCL

 

here is the study, I love the fact they clearly compared the 2 forms :

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/27567458

 

Comparison of the effects of nicotinic acid and nicotinamide degradation on plasma betaine and choline levels.

 

Abstract AIM:

The present study was to compare the effects of nicotinic acid and nicotinamide on the plasma methyl donors, choline and betaine.

METHODS:

Thirty adult subjects were randomly divided into three groups of equal size, and orally received purified water (C group), nicotinic acid (300 mg, NA group) or nicotinamide (300 mg, NM group). Plasma nicotinamide, N1-methylnicotinamide, homocysteine, betaine and choline levels before and 1.5-h and 3-h post-dosing, plasma normetanephrine and metanephrine concentrations at 3-h post-dosing, and the urinary excretion of N1-methyl-2-pyridone-5-carboxamide during the test period were examined.

RESULTS:

The level of 3-h plasma nicotinamide, N1-methylnicotinamide, homocysteine, the urinary excretion of N1-methyl-2-pyridone-5-carboxamide and pulse pressure (PP) in the NM group was 221%, 3972%, 61%, 1728% and 21.2% higher than that of the control group (P < 0.01, except homocysteine and PP P < 0.05), while the 3-h plasma betaine, normetanephrine and metanephrine level in the NM group was 24.4%, 9.4% and 11.7% lower (P < 0.05, except betaine P < 0.01), without significant difference in choline levels. Similar but less pronounced changes were observed in the NA group, with a lower level of 3-h plasma N1-methylnicotinamide (1.90 ± 0.20 μmol/l vs. 3.62 ± 0.27 μmol/l, P < 0.01) and homocysteine (12.85 ± 1.39 μmol/l vs. 18.08 ± 1.02 μmol/l, P < 0.05) but a higher level of betaine (27.44 ± 0.71 μmol/l vs. 23.52 ± 0.61 μmol/l, P < 0.05) than that of the NM group.

CONCLUSION:

The degradation of nicotinamide consumes more betaine than that of nicotinic acid at identical doses. This difference should be taken into consideration in niacin fortification.


  • Informative x 7

#2 onz

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Posted 12 November 2019 - 03:26 AM

Hi Tom, interesting study thanks for posting.
I'm out of the loop with the current debate. So you're saying that we should supplement with B12, specifically the methyl version? And what are the common side effects without these cofactors, fatigue and low energy?

#3 Kevnzworld

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Posted 13 November 2019 - 11:37 PM

Take 5 methyl folate. Your homocysteine will be forever normalized....

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#4 Tom Andre F. (ex shinobi)

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Posted 14 November 2019 - 10:16 PM

Hi Tom, interesting study thanks for posting.
I'm out of the loop with the current debate. So you're saying that we should supplement with B12, specifically the methyl version? And what are the common side effects without these cofactors, fatigue and low energy?

 You r welcome :)

 

Yes the methyl form is best indeed

 

Well there are probably lot of factors but the main one is homocystein (=cardiovascular disease)

 

Take 5 methyl folate. Your homocysteine will be forever normalized....

 

yes and no. It is now a few years Im on this topic and you need actually : 5 methyl folate (but never above 400mcg / day) + methyl B12 + B6 (P5P) in an ideal to respect the full methylation cycle.

 

But issue is homocysteine is not the worst. If you decrease homocysteine with those vitamins, your all mortaility risk still high. Why ? One reason is because your homocysteine will be in check but NOT your s adenosyl homocysteine. To decrease the later you need... Betaine in the opposite has a role, so we should maybe add it to the stack as #1 if large dose of NR or NMN are used.



#5 aribadabar

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Posted 15 November 2019 - 05:47 PM

 5 methyl folate (but never above 400mcg / day) 

...unless you are homozygous for the MTHFR SNP  C677T in which case going to at least 800mcg is strongly recommended.



#6 p75213

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Posted 19 November 2019 - 09:52 AM

The degradation of nicotinamide consumes betaine anhydrous in the human body which is the same as betaine trimethylglycine. So shouldn't we be supplementing with this form of betaine?
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#7 Tom Andre F. (ex shinobi)

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Posted 20 November 2019 - 10:00 PM

The degradation of nicotinamide consumes betaine anhydrous in the human body which is the same as betaine trimethylglycine. So shouldn't we be supplementing with this form of betaine?

 

Sure the use of betaine hcl is just betaine trimethylglycine with a hcl group added for digestive confort. I believe its a good idea to supplement with one of these if one use NR, NMN, or NA.


Edited by Tom Andre F. (ex shinobi), 20 November 2019 - 10:01 PM.


#8 p75213

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Posted 21 November 2019 - 12:44 AM

What is the ratio of betaine to nmn/nr/na? At the moment I'm taking 1:1.


Edited by p75213, 21 November 2019 - 12:45 AM.

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#9 p75213

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Posted 21 November 2019 - 11:37 AM

Sure the use of betaine hcl is just betaine trimethylglycine with a hcl group added for digestive confort. I believe its a good idea to supplement with one of these if one use NR, NMN, or NA.

Is betaine hcl also a methyl donor? I couldn't find any research to verify that.


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#10 BieraK

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Posted 19 December 2019 - 08:51 AM

What is the ratio of betaine to nmn/nr/na? At the moment I'm taking 1:1.

I still wonder the same.
I experienced a methyl crash using Niacin withou TMG.

What is the math needed for calculating the TMG to NR/NAM/NA ratio?
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#11 longcity90

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Posted 31 December 2019 - 10:33 AM

This also interests me ... is there a correct proportion on the use of Nicotinic acid / Niacinamide and a methyl donor such as DMG / TMG to avoid side effects in the methylation process?



#12 Fredrik

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Posted 02 January 2020 - 04:54 AM

A paper in Medical Hypotheses (2000) recommended the same amount of betaine (TMG) as nicotinic acid in weight to avoid any theoretical methylation issues.

http://www.tahomacli...cin therapy.pdf

Edited by Fredrik, 02 January 2020 - 04:58 AM.

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#13 joesixpack

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Posted 05 January 2020 - 03:07 AM

A paper in Medical Hypotheses (2000) recommended the same amount of betaine (TMG) as nicotinic acid in weight to avoid any theoretical methylation issues.

http://www.tahomacli...cin therapy.pdf

 

I have been taking 500mg of TMG with 300 mg or NR a day. Before I started the TMG I could not take more that 125mg of NR every other day. I no longer have the heart pounding, overwhelming effect from NR, and have some benefits from it.







Also tagged with one or more of these keywords: nicotinamide, niacinamide, niacin, homocysteine, nicotinamide riboside, nmn

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