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NMN caused full blown Niacin Flush! Did I get a fake supplement?

nmn flushing nmn flush flushing

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#31 MikeDC

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Posted 26 December 2019 - 02:01 PM

I asked you to point out where that comparison was made in your paper, and you cannot because there is no comparison. No one is making the comparison because there is no money in it. I have tried NR and NMN and gotten nothing from them, however, I got very strong results from 2 grams each of Nam+ribose. Which is to be expected, as that would be like taking 4 grams of NR.

Fig. 5b of Brenner's paper tells the story. The average NAD+ produced by NR and Nam was the same within the error bars. And given that the paper speaks of "mole equivalent doses of Nam," that suggest the researchers used twice as much NR as Nam, as the molar weight of NR (255.2) is roughly twice that of Nam (122.1).

ADPR production was inhibited all the way for NAM. But for NR, the inhibition stopped after 5 hours. So NAM is a Sirtuins inhibitor and NR is a activator after 5 hours.

As a recent paper shows NR is indispensable in liver metabolism. So some cells without the ability to utilize NAM can greatly increase their NAD+ from the increased supply of NR. So just measuring the total NAD+ doesn’t reflect all the benefits of NR.

Edited by MikeDC, 26 December 2019 - 02:11 PM.


#32 Fredrik

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Posted 26 December 2019 - 02:02 PM

I asked you to point out where that comparison was made in your paper, and you cannot because there is no comparison. No one is making the comparison because there is no money in it. I have tried NR and NMN and gotten nothing from them, however, I got very strong results from 2 grams each of Nam+ribose. Which is to be expected, as that would be like taking 4 grams of NR. 

 

Fig. 5b of Brenner's paper tells the story. The average NAD+ produced by NR and Nam was the same within the error bars. And given that the paper speaks of "mole equivalent doses of Nam," that suggest the researchers used twice as much NR as Nam, as the molar weight of NR (255.2) is roughly twice that of Nam (122.1).

 

You have provided zero evidence to support your theory besides the anecdotal "I got very strong results from 2 grams each of Nam+ribose" which may as well just be your typical placebo-effect. It´s not clear to me that one should feel anything at all taking NAD precursors.


Edited by Fredrik, 26 December 2019 - 02:53 PM.

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#33 Turnbuckle

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Posted 26 December 2019 - 02:57 PM

You have provided zero evidence to support your theory besides the anecdotal "I got very strong results from 2 grams each of Nam+ribose" which may as well just be your typical placebo-effect. It´s not clear to me that one should feel anything at all taking NAD precursors.

 

 

False. I provided evidence that Nam produces the same overall NAD+ increase as NR, at half the dose. 

 

BTW, are you are a stockholder or employee in any of the NAD supplement companies?


Edited by Turnbuckle, 26 December 2019 - 02:59 PM.


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#34 MikeDC

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Posted 26 December 2019 - 03:08 PM

False. I provided evidence that Nam produces the same overall NAD+ increase as NR, at half the dose.

BTW, are you are a stockholder or employee in any of the NAD supplement companies?


That has nothing to do with ribose. NAM can increase NAD+ effectively. But it also inhibit the NAD+ consuming process. NR showed different behavior than NAM.

#35 Fredrik

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Posted 26 December 2019 - 03:11 PM

False. I provided evidence that Nam produces the same overall NAD+ increase as NR, at half the dose. 

 

BTW, are you are a stockholder or employee in any of the NAD supplement companies?

 

But only if the NAMPT enzyme is working well. NR/NMN can bypass the salvage pathway. I´m pretty sure no one wants to take high dose nicotinamide until we know if it will inhibit SIRT1 in humans.

 

No and no. I have no shares in any supplement company and I´m not an employee of any of them.


Edited by Fredrik, 26 December 2019 - 03:13 PM.


#36 Turnbuckle

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Posted 26 December 2019 - 03:26 PM

. I´m pretty sure no one wants to take high dose nicotinamide until we know if it will inhibit SIRT1 in humans.

 

 

 

If that is your concern, then you should not be taking NR, as according to Fig 5d of the Brenner paper, NR produces a higher rise of Nam than Nam itself.


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#37 Fredrik

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Posted 26 December 2019 - 03:28 PM

If that is your concern, then you should not be taking NR, as according to Fig 5d of the Brenner paper, NR produces a higher rise of Nam than Nam itself.

 

I´m not taking NR. I haven´t seen evidence that NR does anything useful in humans.


Edited by Fredrik, 26 December 2019 - 03:34 PM.

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#38 MikeDC

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Posted 26 December 2019 - 03:31 PM

If that is your concern, then you should not be taking NR, as according to Fig 5d of the Brenner paper, NR produces a higher rise of Nam than Nam itself.


But NR has other benefits beyond NAM. NR becomes an activator after 5 hours. NR can increase NAD+ in cells that rely on NR as the only NAD+ precursor.
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#39 LawrenceW

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Posted 26 December 2019 - 03:59 PM

NR can increase NAD+ in cells that rely on NR as the only NAD+ precursor.

 

Which cells rely on NR as the only NAD+ precursor? Please provide references.



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#40 able

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Posted 26 December 2019 - 04:33 PM

But NR has other benefits beyond NAM. NR becomes an activator after 5 hours. NR can increase NAD+ in cells that rely on NR as the only NAD+ precursor.

 

 

There are no cells that rely solely on NR.  Some cells require conversion to NR before crossing the cell membrane, but that does not impede their usage.

 

This research shows that when introduced to serum outside of cells, ALL the NAD+ metabolites can increase intracellular NAD+ in cells.

 

Degradation of Extracellular NAD+ Intermediates in Cultures of Human HEK293 Cells

 

NMN was the MOST effective at doing so (see chart below)

 

This was in cells that NMN and NAD+ need to convert to NR to cross the cell membrane. It is not a barrier to entry.

 

They also show NR is far less stable than NMN and NAD+, and degraded to NAM within 1 hour, so is not able to reach most cells in the body as NR.

 

Many other studies also show NR is not stable in blood, for instance:

A reduced form of nicotinamide riboside defines a new path for NAD+ biosynthesis and acts as an orally bioavailable NAD+ precursor

 

 

NR quickly disappears from the bloodstream, and is almost undetectable 1 h after intraperitoneal administration at 500 mg/kg. 

 

Elegant tracer experiments demonstrated that after oral intake, NR was utilized as such by the liver, while it predominantly reached the peripheral tissues as its degradation product, NAM.

 

 

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