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Fractured emotional response, GAD, & more

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#1 Furniture

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Posted 25 January 2020 - 03:16 AM


I am looking for help with certain symptoms I’m dealing with that are hard to describe. To my knowledge, they don't fit neatly into a psychiatric label.



 

The main problem is:

    

 

Poor emotional reactivity - So, if someone tells me a dramatic story or a funny anecdote or terrible news, I cannot for the life of me relay the same emotions that the person is expressing to me back to them. What I mean is, I am totally unable to respond naturally to emotional information. For example, a friend recently told me about a big accomplishment in their life and I wanted to say, “Whoa! No way! That’s awesome!” But the only thing I was capable of muttering was a monotone “wow. nice” even though it was very exciting news. It’s like the information registers in my mind, I process and understand it, but there is no emotional output. This is not anhedonia. I still feel pleasure in life; from listening to & playing music, cooking, eating, learning, watching comedies, exercising, and socializing. I’m not apathetic or depressed either. I want to socialize! But there is a disconnect between how I feel inside and how my body, voice and face express those feelings.



 

And,
    

The rare times I am able to outwardly express an emotion, it’s comes on too strong.  For example, when I truly find something funny, it is very difficult to contain my glee. The muscles in my face tighten and contract in a way that it almost hurts. It feels like my emotional responsiveness is totally fractured. Most of the time it’s completely absent, but when it does manifest itself, it’s like a surge of excitatory neurotransmission, like a rush of upward movement into my head and face without a break pedal. I'm not in control of it and I have to put in immense effort to moderate the emotion to a normal level. FWIW, this is only with "positive" emotions, I don't experience this with anger or sadness.



 

Another odd one:

    

My ability to think properly deteriorates when making eye contact - When I’m engaged in a face to face conversation, it is difficult to focus on what the other person is saying. Instead, I’m fixating on where the other person is looking, what emotions they are expressing & whether my facial expressions are matching the flow of the dialogue. I guess this is a form of anxiety but intertwined with my poor emotional reactivity. I’m not sure what causes what. On the flip side, when I’m talking on the phone with someone, riding in the car or walking with someone but facing forward and not directly towards them, I can think much more clearly, my listening skills are solid, and my verbal recall is much better.

 



Lastly,
    

There is a general anxiousness that comes with all of this. I don’t know if this is true clinical anxiety or if the anxiety just stems from my awareness of these deficiencies and the ruminating I do about whether I’ll ever be normal again. Either way, the anxiety is mostly bearable. It's the other symptoms that make life difficult.

 

 

 




Overall, I’m just a regular person. I did struggle with severe cystic acne and depression years ago but I’ve overcome those things. I also abused cannabis in the past and used LSD, MDMA, & psilocybin. Though today, I haven’t touched a single drug (including alcohol & caffeine) for 2 years now. I eat healthy, exercise regularly and occasionally supplement with things like Magnesium, Zinc, Collagen, and Resistant Starch.  I don’t have any mental health problems in my family and I had a normal & healthy upbringing. I used to be much more emotionally expressive but now I don't feel normal. It wasn’t until 3-4 years ago (I’m now 26) that this happened. I can’t say what precipitated it exactly.



 

 

 

Successes:

  

I found out that dextromethorphan (DXM) improves these symptoms by a good 30-40% after taking cough syrup when I was sick one time and felt much more responsive and much more like myself. Since dextromethorphan is an NMDA antagonist, I tried memantine hoping this would work in a similar way. It didn’t seem to work at all. I just felt loopy and tired on it.

 



Failures:
  

Choline makes all of these symptoms much worse.
    

NAC worked for like a day and half but then worsened everything after that.

 

 

 

 

Theories:


 

 

Glutamate Dsyfunction:



 

Could it be that my glutamate auto-receptors have been downregulated leading to over-active glutamate neurotransmission? Would Ketamine ultimately upregulate glutamate autoreceptors? What about sarcosine? Are there other anti-depressants like Ketamine that work through NMDA & AMPA action?
 

 

Serotonin Overactivity:



 

I’ve also wondered if my serotonin 5-ht1a autoreceptors have been downregulated leading to a similar situation of overactive serotonin neurotransmission. Maybe this is a result of using psychedelics in the past. I've read that they can downregulate serotonin receptors semi-permanently. Though, I’ve always had positive trips and these symptoms did not seem to correlate to those trips.

 



I’m afraid to try an SSRI for fear that I might become even more emotionally blunted. Are there any anti-depressants or anxiolytics that upregulate 5-ht1a receptors, slow serotonin firing, and/or modulate serotonin receptors rather than just raise serotonin levels? I’m considering trying Buspirone (Buspar), a 5-ht1a autoreceptor agonist, to see if my problem could be attributed to excess serotonin.

 

 

If you have had a similar experience or know of any medications that could treat this (or what these symptoms are even called), please help a brother out!  I’m tired of feeling this way.



Thanks!

 


Edited by Furniture, 25 January 2020 - 03:34 AM.


#2 experimenting

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Posted 25 January 2020 - 10:17 PM

I am looking for help with certain symptoms I’m dealing with that are hard to describe. To my knowledge, they don't fit neatly into a psychiatric label.



The main problem is:



Poor emotional reactivity - So, if someone tells me a dramatic story or a funny anecdote or terrible news, I cannot for the life of me relay the same emotions that the person is expressing to me back to them. What I mean is, I am totally unable to respond naturally to emotional information. For example, a friend recently told me about a big accomplishment in their life and I wanted to say, “Whoa! No way! That’s awesome!” But the only thing I was capable of muttering was a monotone “wow. nice” even though it was very exciting news. It’s like the information registers in my mind, I process and understand it, but there is no emotional output. This is not anhedonia. I still feel pleasure in life; from listening to & playing music, cooking, eating, learning, watching comedies, exercising, and socializing. I’m not apathetic or depressed either. I want to socialize! But there is a disconnect between how I feel inside and how my body, voice and face express those feelings.




And,


The rare times I am able to outwardly express an emotion, it’s comes on too strong. For example, when I truly find something funny, it is very difficult to contain my glee. The muscles in my face tighten and contract in a way that it almost hurts. It feels like my emotional responsiveness is totally fractured. Most of the time it’s completely absent, but when it does manifest itself, it’s like a surge of excitatory neurotransmission, like a rush of upward movement into my head and face without a break pedal. I'm not in control of it and I have to put in immense effort to moderate the emotion to a normal level. FWIW, this is only with "positive" emotions, I don't experience this with anger or sadness.




Another odd one:



My ability to think properly deteriorates when making eye contact - When I’m engaged in a face to face conversation, it is difficult to focus on what the other person is saying. Instead, I’m fixating on where the other person is looking, what emotions they are expressing & whether my facial expressions are matching the flow of the dialogue. I guess this is a form of anxiety but intertwined with my poor emotional reactivity. I’m not sure what causes what. On the flip side, when I’m talking on the phone with someone, riding in the car or walking with someone but facing forward and not directly towards them, I can think much more clearly, my listening skills are solid, and my verbal recall is much better.




Lastly,


There is a general anxiousness that comes with all of this. I don’t know if this is true clinical anxiety or if the anxiety just stems from my awareness of these deficiencies and the ruminating I do about whether I’ll ever be normal again. Either way, the anxiety is mostly bearable. It's the other symptoms that make life difficult.







Overall, I’m just a regular person. I did struggle with severe cystic acne and depression years ago but I’ve overcome those things. I also abused cannabis in the past and used LSD, MDMA, & psilocybin. Though today, I haven’t touched a single drug (including alcohol & caffeine) for 2 years now. I eat healthy, exercise regularly and occasionally supplement with things like Magnesium, Zinc, Collagen, and Resistant Starch. I don’t have any mental health problems in my family and I had a normal & healthy upbringing. I used to be much more emotionally expressive but now I don't feel normal. It wasn’t until 3-4 years ago (I’m now 26) that this happened. I can’t say what precipitated it exactly.





Successes:


I found out that dextromethorphan (DXM) improves these symptoms by a good 30-40% after taking cough syrup when I was sick one time and felt much more responsive and much more like myself. Since dextromethorphan is an NMDA antagonist, I tried memantine hoping this would work in a similar way. It didn’t seem to work at all. I just felt loopy and tired on it.



Failures:

Choline makes all of these symptoms much worse.

NAC worked for like a day and half but then worsened everything after that.





Theories:



Glutamate Dsyfunction:



Could it be that my glutamate auto-receptors have been downregulated leading to over-active glutamate neurotransmission? Would Ketamine ultimately upregulate glutamate autoreceptors? What about sarcosine? Are there other anti-depressants like Ketamine that work through NMDA & AMPA action?


Serotonin Overactivity:



I’ve also wondered if my serotonin 5-ht1a autoreceptors have been downregulated leading to a similar situation of overactive serotonin neurotransmission. Maybe this is a result of using psychedelics in the past. I've read that they can downregulate serotonin receptors semi-permanently. Though, I’ve always had positive trips and these symptoms did not seem to correlate to those trips.



I’m afraid to try an SSRI for fear that I might become even more emotionally blunted. Are there any anti-depressants or anxiolytics that upregulate 5-ht1a receptors, slow serotonin firing, and/or modulate serotonin receptors rather than just raise serotonin levels? I’m considering trying Buspirone (Buspar), a 5-ht1a autoreceptor agonist, to see if my problem could be attributed to excess serotonin.


If you have had a similar experience or know of any medications that could treat this (or what these symptoms are even called), please help a brother out! I’m tired of feeling this way.


Thanks!


So I’m a bit like this (chuck anhedonia into the mix as well, plus chronic fatigue)

How are your stress levels?

I recently started taking vitamin C and a B complex and am experimenting-my stress levels have been nuked.

And with that game a lot of other strange effects, a bit more emotionality, more sociability, more appreciation of people, it’s weird.

I’m trying to isolate exactly which compound it was that did this (I suspect C) which also does have NMDA and glutamatergic effects. It’s also very safe up to high doses, so giving this a try is essentially risk-free.

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#3 Furniture

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Posted 25 January 2020 - 10:48 PM

So I’m a bit like this (chuck anhedonia into the mix as well, plus chronic fatigue)

How are your stress levels?

I recently started taking vitamin C and a B complex and am experimenting-my stress levels have been nuked.

And with that game a lot of other strange effects, a bit more emotionality, more sociability, more appreciation of people, it’s weird.

I’m trying to isolate exactly which compound it was that did this (I suspect C) which also does have NMDA and glutamatergic effects. It’s also very safe up to high doses, so giving this a try is essentially risk-free.

 

Vitamin C supplements have always raised my anxiety levels. I think this is because Vitamin C is a cofactor for dopamine beta hydroxylase which converts dopamine into norepinephrine, raising your norepinephrine levels & lowering dopamine. Although Vitamin C has 100's of effects across the body and is a cofactor for many reactions, so it could be due to a different mechanism. That being said, when I eat foods high in vitamin C (kiwis, oranges, bell peppers, camu camu powder), there is no anxiety-provoking effect like with supplemental Vitamin C powder. Bizarre.

 

B-complexes boost my energy levels but I don't find them necessary. My energy levels are fine without it. And sometimes, B-complexes boost my energy too much. It's not anxiety so much as it is a feeling of being overly stimulated, similar to ADHD symptoms. I am also acne-prone and I think the B12 component breaks my skin out.

 

Either way, neither of those two supplements (and I've also used isolated forms of B-vitamins, "activated" B-vitamins, and B-vitamin derivatives) made a dent in the emotional dysfunction that I described in the beginning of this post.

 

I'm glad that they are working for you though.

 

But I don't think my problem can be solved by taking in the right vitamins & minerals. I think there is a dysfunction in the balance of receptors in my brain that needs to be fixed with targeted medication.

 

 

I'm weighing the decision to try these next:

Buspirone (Buspar) - to agonize 5-ht1a receptors

St. John's Wort - to upregulate 5-ht1a receptors

Sarcosine

NSI-189

Semax

Naltrexone

Mirtazapine - to antagonize serotonin

Tianeptine


Edited by Furniture, 25 January 2020 - 10:54 PM.


#4 bosharpe

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Posted 25 January 2020 - 10:53 PM

I suffer from the exact same symptons as you've described here, and I'm keen to hear responses from others. My hunch is that it's ASD, after lots of my own research. How to fix it? I don't know, I wish I did. 

 

I've considered MDMA Therapy, and tried tiny amounts of LSD to experiment. 

 

 

 

 


Edited by bosharpe, 25 January 2020 - 11:11 PM.


#5 experimenting

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Posted 25 January 2020 - 10:55 PM

Vitamin C supplements have always raised my anxiety levels. I think this is because Vitamin C is a cofactor for dopamine beta hydroxylase which converts dopamine into norepinephrine, raising your norepinephrine levels & lowering dopamine. Although Vitamin C has 100's of effects across the body and is a cofactor for many reactions, so it could be due to a different mechanism. That being said, when I eat foods high in vitamin C (kiwis, oranges, bell peppers, camu camu powder), there is no anxiety-provoking effect like with supplemental Vitamin C powder. Bizarre.

B-complexes boost my energy levels but sometimes too much. It's not anxiety so much as it is a feeling of being overly stimulated, similar to ADHD symptoms. I am also acne-prone and I think the B12 component breaks my skin out.

Either way, neither of those two supplements (and I've also used isolated forms of B-vitamins, "activated" B-vitamins, and B-vitamin derivatives) made a dent in the emotional dysfunction that I described in the beginning of this post.

I'm glad that they are working for you though.

I don't think my problem can be solved through vitamins & minerals use. I think there is a dysfunction in the balance of receptors in my brain that needs to be fixed with targeted medication.


I'm weighing the decision to try these next:
Buspirone (Buspar) - to agonize 5-ht1a receptors
St. John's Wort - to upregulate 5-ht1a receptors
Sarcosine
NSI-189
Semax
Naltrexone
Mirtazapine - to antagonize serotonin
Tianeptine


When you say powders make you anxious, but not foods, what dosages are we talking about?

I microdose Vit C (at least compared to others) for the same reason you mentioned. 250mg is wayyyy too much for me. Even 125 is tricky. Which means I buy children’s gummies then cut them in half. It’s interesting you mention a similar effect, because you’re the first person on this forum that I’ve spoken to that seems to have the same core issue as mine:that FOODs don’t seem to have much of a supplement impact, but normal doses of supplements do.

Anyway, I’m sorry to hear about your issues. Of your list below, I have experience with all of them.

NSI 189 is the only one I would recommend without reservation. As others on this forum have noted, it is an astonishingly powerful compound. It nuked years of emotional issues for me in one go. And the effects are permanent. In fact I can’t dose it consistently, I do 1 month on once a year or so. That’s the only issue, you really can’t take it chronically, I find the head pressure and stomach issues unbearable after a few weeks. But you will go places mentally that you didn’t think a nootropic could take you to.

#6 Furniture

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Posted 25 January 2020 - 11:05 PM

When you say powders make you anxious, but not foods, what dosages are we talking about?

I microdose Vit C (at least compared to others) for the same reason you mentioned. 250mg is wayyyy too much for me. Even 125 is tricky. Which means I buy children’s gummies then cut them in half. It’s interesting you mention a similar effect, because you’re the first person on this forum that I’ve spoken to that seems to have the same core issue as mine:that FOODs don’t seem to have much of a supplement impact, but normal doses of supplements do.

Anyway, I’m sorry to hear about your issues. Of your list below, I have experience with all of them.

NSI 189 is the only one I would recommend without reservation. As others on this forum have noted, it is an astonishingly powerful compound. It nuked years of emotional issues for me in one go. And the effects are permanent. In fact I can’t dose it consistently, I do 1 month on once a year or so. That’s the only issue, you really can’t take it chronically, I find the head pressure and stomach issues unbearable after a few weeks. But you will go places mentally that you didn’t think a nootropic could take you to.

 

 

Tiny doses of vitamin C like 50mg are enough to cause an uptick in anxiety. Whereas I have intentionally consumed huge amounts of Vitamin C rich foods for a couple of days (I'm talking plates of kiwis, oranges, broccoli & peppers for every meal, fresh lemon juice, camu camu powder, etc) without any change. What happens when you take 250mg of Vitamin C that makes it way too much for you?

 

Wow that's quite a testimonial for NSI-189!

When you say "emotional issues", can you be more specific? Are we talking about an anti-depressant effect? Because, while an anti-depressant effect would certainly not be unwelcome, my general mood & outlook on life are fine. It's this weird emotional splintering that is the problem.



#7 Furniture

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Posted 25 January 2020 - 11:08 PM

I suffer from the exact same symptons as you've described here, and I'm keen to hear responses from others. My hunch is that it's ASD, after lots of my own research. How to fix it? I don't know, I wish I did. 

 

You know, I suspected something along these lines. Even though the symptoms I described overlap with certain symptoms of autism, there are other facets that don't fit into that diagnosis.

 

For example:

  • As an infant, I developed speech at the normal time.
  • I was highly social growing up and into my early twenties. I had lots of friends and normal relationships.
  • I have a strong empathetic side to myself. I tear up easily watching sad movies or youtube videos about elderly couples in love, people hearing for the first time, people commiting acts of kindness.
  • I don't avoid eye contact, in fact I like eye contact when I'm talking to someone, I'm just not cognitively at my best when doing so.
  • I understand social cues
  • I like to be around other people. In fact, I consider myself somewhat extroverted in that I gain energy from being around people, but I struggle with forming relationships these days because of the way I behave and the lack of emotions that I display at the right time.
  • I don't have preoccupations with specific topics
  • These symptoms didn't onset until my early to mid twenties. ASD develops very very early in life. The only times people are diagnosed with autism or aspergers later in life is because of a late diagnosis not a late onset (at least to the best of my knowledge).

How old are you and when did you first start displaying symptoms?


Edited by Furniture, 25 January 2020 - 11:24 PM.


#8 experimenting

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Posted 25 January 2020 - 11:18 PM

Tiny doses of vitamin C like 50mg are enough to cause an uptick in anxiety. Whereas I have intentionally consumed huge amounts of Vitamin C rich foods for a couple of days (I'm talking plates of kiwis, oranges, broccoli & peppers for every meal, fresh lemon juice, camu camu powder, etc) without any change. What happens when you take 250mg of Vitamin C that makes it way too much for you?

Wow that's quite a testimonial for NSI-189!
When you say "emotional issues", can you be more specific? Are we talking about an anti-depressant effect? Because, while an anti-depressant effect would certainly not be unwelcome, my general mood & outlook on life are fine. It's this weird emotional splintering that is the problem.


Ok, so you are just like me, goodness it’s so relieving to find someone who is the same way. Small doses of C, minerals etc produce effects in me that the food equivalents do not. Everyone else here seems to think I’m crazy; but I suspect there is an entirely way the body processes foods vs supplements.

250mg Vit C dulls me out, and also induces bodily pain. The former is due to the fact that it’s a dumb antioxidant. So basically I just become dogged out, nothing going on upstairs. The pain aspect is due to the fact that it activates NMDA. So I need to be really careful, 125mg max daily, is one kids chewable lol.

As for other stuff, Vit D3 is super important and life changing for me, physically mainly, also cognitively but I struggle with it (check my post history).

And then there’s NSI. The downside like I said is the head pressure (from neurogenesis maybe?) and it also destroys my intestines. But it helps me...

I grew up in an abusive and weird household. All sorts of issues rose from this, anxiety, brain fog, body dysmorphia (from terrible diet that had me weighing 120lbs at 6’1.5’’) anhedonia you name it. Severe lack of confidence, lack of emotionality. NSI obliterated a large portion of these issues and even now, 2 years later, though I have other struggles (mostly physical, and battling with how to supplement vit D) my cognitive/emotional baseline is permanently changed for the better. Specific effects:

1. Strong antidepressant. Not in an SSRI like way though. This doesn’t fog you out. It makes you more content in life. So it’s not going to make you euphoric, but rather just more levelheaded. Semi permanent effect.
2. Strong anxiolytic. Ties into part 1. Not afraid of daily life anymore. Able to “roll with the punches” so to speak. Semi permanent effect.
3. Abolished my sense of self-doubt. I used to forever talk to myself in my head, about how I can’t do things. NSI erased that. PERMANENT effect.
4. Extended thinking/cognition. It affects visual perception somehow. For me, as a tennis player my reflexes became crazy. It affected depth of field and I could see the court in ways I cannot at baseline. Unfortunately, temporary effect, none of this stayed with me when I ceased.

Stunning stuff. Don’t take my word for it though, this forum has various testimonials. I couldn’t use it on a permanent basis though, again, it absolutely nukes your guts (maybe you’re bold enough to go sublingual though).

#9 bosharpe

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Posted 25 January 2020 - 11:36 PM

You know, I suspected something along these lines. Even though the symptoms I described overlap with certain symptoms of autism, there are other facets that don't fit into that diagnosis.

 

For example:

  • As an infant, I developed speech at the normal time.
  • I was highly social growing up and into my early twenties. I had lots of friends and normal relationships.
  • I have a strong empathetic side to myself. I tear up easily watching sad movies or youtube videos about elderly couples in love, people hearing for the first time, people commiting acts of kindness.
  • I don't avoid eye contact, in fact I like eye contact when I'm talking to someone, I'm just not cognitively at my best when doing so.
  • I understand social cues
  • I like to be around other people. In fact, I consider myself somewhat extroverted in that I gain energy from being around people, but I struggle with forming relationships these days because of the way I behave and the lack of emotions that I display at the right time.
  • I don't have preoccupations with specific topics
  • These symptoms didn't onset until my early to mid twenties. ASD develops very very early in life. The only times people are diagnosed with autism or aspergers later in life is because of a late diagnosis not a late onset (at least to the best of my knowledge).

How old are you and when did you first start displaying symptoms?

 

I had learning disabilities at school, and was very disruptive. I had dyslexia, and (I suspect) ADHD, which I'm in a queue to get properly assessed for. So I've never fitted in BUT I'm unsure where personal problems, due to a poor upbringing overlap with the ADHD etc. 

 

I'm 33 turning 34 in May, and similar to you I've noticed a difference or 'onset' recently. I thought it was depression, lack of sleep and adequate nutrition. You might want to test L. Reuteri to your list as well.

 

Do you take the cough medicine daily, and does it help with the dulled emotion response?


Edited by bosharpe, 26 January 2020 - 12:07 AM.


#10 MichaelFocus22

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Posted 25 January 2020 - 11:46 PM

1. I've had that problem with eye contact but it's typically only a certain type of personality or person, it's as if they can pierce you or see through you somehow, generally it annoys me and I can generally tell we won't get along. There isn't much you can do it about it. I'm not autistic because I don't get it with everyone and certain times I can outstare people, I wouldn't analyze it too much, I've analyzed basically everyone one of my behaviors but I didn't get much further towards finding a cure for ADHD-PI, just live life. That's all you can do. A drug isn't going to solve your problems, if it did I would be better off than I am right now.



#11 Furniture

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Posted 26 January 2020 - 12:07 AM

I had learning disabilities at school, and was very disruptive. I had dyslexia, and (I suspect) ADHD, which I'm in a queue to get properly assessed for. So I've never fitted in BUT I'm unsure where personal problems, due to a poor upbringing overlap with the ADHD etc. 

 

I'm 33 turning 34 in May, and similar to you I've noticed a difference recently. I thought it was depression, lack of sleep and adequate nutrition.

 

Do you take the cough medicine daily, and does it help with the dulled emotion response?

 

Now that you've reflected on a possible Autism spectrum diagnosis for yourself, do you look back at your life growing up and things begin to make sense? That's how I would imagine a late diagnosis of Asperger's would be like. Realizing behaviors that seemed like personality quirks, eccentricities, or learning disabilities were actually symptomatic of a larger diagnosis. In my case, that's not what happened. If maybe I have some sort of psuedo-autism with 2-3 partial symptoms now, I definitely didn't back then.

 

I've only used dextromethorphan a handful of times to confirm the response I got from it and yes it improves all the emotional/social "afflictions" that I mentioned in my original post. But again, it's not a 100% return to my normal self, only an improvement of 20-40% at most.  Ultimately, I decided it's best not to use daily.  I've read enough reports online of people screwing up their brain with DXM to want to become dependent on it. (Although, these people were abusing it recreationally and at much higher dosages).  But I'm also afraid if I use it continually, my NMDA receptors will upregulate, I'll build a tolerance, and when I stop I will be left far worse than where I began.

 

This is why I'm interested in medications that work indirectly, not as direct agonists or antagonists specifically, but through neurogenesis, or long-term changes in upregulation or downregulation of specific receptors.


Edited by Furniture, 26 January 2020 - 12:10 AM.


#12 bosharpe

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Posted 26 January 2020 - 12:13 AM

Now that you've reflected on a possible Autism spectrum diagnosis for yourself, do you look back at your life growing up and things begin to make sense? That's how I would imagine a late diagnosis of Asperger's would be like. Realizing behaviors that seemed like personality quirks, eccentricities, or learning disabilities were actually symptomatic of a larger diagnosis. In my case, that's not what happened. If maybe I have some sort of psuedo-autism with 2-3 partial symptoms now, I definitely didn't back then.

 

I've only used dextromethorphan a handful of times to confirm the response I got from it and yes it improves all the emotional/social "afflictions" that I mentioned in my original post. But again, it's not a 100% return to my normal self, only an improvement of 20-40% at most.  Ultimately, I decided it's best not to use daily.  I've read enough reports online of people screwing up their brain with DXM to want to become dependent on it. (Although, these people were abusing it recreationally and at much higher dosages).  But I'm also afraid if I use it continually, my NMDA receptors will upregulate, I'll build a tolerance, and when I stop I will be left far worse than where I began.

 

This is why I'm interested in medications that work indirectly, not as direct agonists or antagonists specifically, but through neurogenesis, or long-term changes in upregulation or downregulation of specific receptors.

 

I'm a bit reluctant to say 'yes', because I can't say with certainty - I've never been diagnosed. You do however describe my own experience in your initial post very well. 



#13 Furniture

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Posted 26 January 2020 - 12:32 AM

1. I've had that problem with eye contact but it's typically only a certain type of personality or person, it's as if they can pierce you or see through you somehow, generally it annoys me and I can generally tell we won't get along. There isn't much you can do it about it. I'm not autistic because I don't get it with everyone and certain times I can outstare people, I wouldn't analyze it too much, I've analyzed basically everyone one of my behaviors but I didn't get much further towards finding a cure for ADHD-PI, just live life. That's all you can do. A drug isn't going to solve your problems, if it did I would be better off than I am right now.

 

This isn’t a situation where I’m ruminating over minuscule behaviors that I could ultimately ignore and just “live life”. I’m living in it. Every minute of every day. I don’t feel like myself. I understand if you don’t understand. I’m not a great writer so I don’t know if I properly conveyed it, but these symptoms are debilitating and tolling on the quality of my life. I’ve struggled with this for years now, I’ve been through behavioral modification therapy with no success, tried Buproprion, Beta-Blockers, and other medications with no success, tried countless dietary supplements with minimal success. But now I’m seeking help online from people who have hopefully been through something similar. Drugs do work. One of my closest friends is a functional person because of drugs he was prescribed. There are many people on this forum who have had been successfully treated with medications. That’s what I’m looking for. Not to be cured, but to be treated. Even a 50% reduction of these symptoms would be a life-saver.

 

“A drug isn't going to solve your problems, if it did I would be better off than I am right now.”
I’m sorry to be so direct with you, but your situation does not represent everyone else’s experience with medications.



#14 Furniture

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Posted 26 January 2020 - 12:52 AM

Ok, so you are just like me, goodness it’s so relieving to find someone who is the same way. Small doses of C, minerals etc produce effects in me that the food equivalents do not. Everyone else here seems to think I’m crazy; but I suspect there is an entirely way the body processes foods vs supplements.

250mg Vit C dulls me out, and also induces bodily pain. The former is due to the fact that it’s a dumb antioxidant. So basically I just become dogged out, nothing going on upstairs. The pain aspect is due to the fact that it activates NMDA. So I need to be really careful, 125mg max daily, is one kids chewable lol.

As for other stuff, Vit D3 is super important and life changing for me, physically mainly, also cognitively but I struggle with it (check my post history).

And then there’s NSI. The downside like I said is the head pressure (from neurogenesis maybe?) and it also destroys my intestines. But it helps me...

I grew up in an abusive and weird household. All sorts of issues rose from this, anxiety, brain fog, body dysmorphia (from terrible diet that had me weighing 120lbs at 6’1.5’’) anhedonia you name it. Severe lack of confidence, lack of emotionality. NSI obliterated a large portion of these issues and even now, 2 years later, though I have other struggles (mostly physical, and battling with how to supplement vit D) my cognitive/emotional baseline is permanently changed for the better. Specific effects:

1. Strong antidepressant. Not in an SSRI like way though. This doesn’t fog you out. It makes you more content in life. So it’s not going to make you euphoric, but rather just more levelheaded. Semi permanent effect.
2. Strong anxiolytic. Ties into part 1. Not afraid of daily life anymore. Able to “roll with the punches” so to speak. Semi permanent effect.
3. Abolished my sense of self-doubt. I used to forever talk to myself in my head, about how I can’t do things. NSI erased that. PERMANENT effect.
4. Extended thinking/cognition. It affects visual perception somehow. For me, as a tennis player my reflexes became crazy. It affected depth of field and I could see the court in ways I cannot at baseline. Unfortunately, temporary effect, none of this stayed with me when I ceased.

Stunning stuff. Don’t take my word for it though, this forum has various testimonials. I couldn’t use it on a permanent basis though, again, it absolutely nukes your guts (maybe you’re bold enough to go sublingual though).

 

You're not crazy. Many vitamins & minerals are not in the exact form that occurs in nature, so they can have much higher bioavailability, which can be dangerous for certain minerals like manganese, copper, or iron. Also when we encounter vitamins & minerals in nature, they co-occur with other food components and we don't fully understand every interaction and synergism between all these different components. So it's totally reasonable to have a reaction to a supplement but no reaction to the same compound consumed through food. Supplements can be fine if used wisely, but it's probably better to get your vitamins & minerals from whole foods if you can.

 

I just ordered NSI-189 from x-nootropics. I'm really looking forward to it based on your experience.


Edited by Furniture, 26 January 2020 - 12:55 AM.


#15 experimenting

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Posted 26 January 2020 - 12:57 AM

You're not crazy. Many vitamins & minerals are not in the exact form that occurs in nature, so they can have much higher bioavailability, which can be dangerous for certain minerals like manganese, copper, or iron. Also when we encounter vitamins & minerals in nature, they co-occur with other food components and we don't fully understand every interaction and synergism between all these different components. So it's totally reasonable to have a reaction to a supplement but no reaction to the same compound consumed through food.

I just ordered NSI-189 from x-nootropics. I'm really looking forward to it based on your experience.


Good luck with it.

Just tried vit C on its own today, 125mg dose. It’s a tricky one. For a few hours I feel good. Must be the glutamate effect, plus harder muscles and such (NMDA). But I crash a few hours later, reliably (adrenals). Man, my body is so tricky to manage (serious chronic fatigue).

#16 MichaelFocus22

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Posted 26 January 2020 - 12:58 AM

This isn’t a situation where I’m ruminating over minuscule behaviors that I could ultimately ignore and just “live life”. I’m living in it. Every minute of every day. I don’t feel like myself. I understand if you don’t understand. I’m not a great writer so I don’t know if I properly conveyed it, but these symptoms are debilitating and tolling on the quality of my life. I’ve struggled with this for years now, I’ve been through behavioral modification therapy with no success, tried Buproprion, Beta-Blockers, and other medications with no success, tried countless dietary supplements with minimal success. But now I’m seeking help online from people who have hopefully been through something similar. Drugs do work. One of my closest friends is a functional person because of drugs he was prescribed. There are many people on this forum who have had been successfully treated with medications. That’s what I’m looking for. Not to be cured, but to be treated. Even a 50% reduction of these symptoms would be a life-saver.

 

“A drug isn't going to solve your problems, if it did I would be better off than I am right now.”
I’m sorry to be so direct with you, but your situation does not represent everyone else’s experience with medications.

 

 

1. Fairly hostile post, I've taken every drug over the rainbow, you probably won't find a sustainable solution. We've all been through something, similar many people on longecity have ADHD, Autism and the spectrum. Sorry, but that's probably the answer you don't want to hear. I've all sorts of debilitating things myself that I don't care to discuss. Do what you like it's your life.


Edited by MichaelFocus22, 26 January 2020 - 12:59 AM.


#17 Furniture

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Posted 26 January 2020 - 01:07 AM

I'm a bit reluctant to say 'yes', because I can't say with certainty - I've never been diagnosed. You do however describe my own experience in your initial post very well. 

 

Have you taken any medication for this? Or found relief in any way?



#18 bosharpe

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Posted 26 January 2020 - 08:33 AM

Have you taken any medication for this? Or found relief in any way?

 

No. I'm somewhat hopeful though. L. Reutri, is one I'm considering trying.

 

https://www.cell.com...Ul4nzMk.twitter

 

I currently microdose - this helps boost my mood, but makes me more tense, and less productive. I think I mentioned I'm looking into MDMA therapy in order to process a lot of emotional baggage. I'm not on optimum sleep/diet/exercise, so I need to get those right first and foremost. I've got a feeling I'm deficient in a fair few things like D3, Vitamin C, etc

 

Look forward to hearing about your NSI experience. Please keep us updated, this is a very useful and interesting thread.


Edited by bosharpe, 26 January 2020 - 09:20 AM.


#19 bosharpe

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Posted 26 January 2020 - 10:11 AM

These might be worth more research:

 

Sulforaphane

https://abcnews.go.c...utism-symptoms/

FMT

https://www.medscape...warticle/874970

Bumetanide

https://www.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC3565189/

https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/22514741
 


Edited by bosharpe, 26 January 2020 - 10:11 AM.


#20 DaveX

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Posted 26 January 2020 - 01:16 PM

https://selfhacked.c...-ht1a-receptor/

 

What Might Decrease 5HT1A Autoreceptors or Increase Postsynaptic Receptors Supplements
  • CBD is being researched for activating 5HT1A receptors CBD isn’t legal in all countries and states, so be sure to familiarize yourself with the regulations before considering CBD use [44].
  • St John’s Wort increases the number of postsynaptic 5-HT1A (and 5-HT2A) receptors in animals [45].
  • Ashwagandha may sensitize 5-HT1A based on animal experiments [46].
  • Zinc–may have mixed effects but adequate intake supports overall physical and mental health [4748].
  • Fish Oil; diets low in Omega-3s seem to decrease 5-HT1A receptors in animals, which reduced the effects of SSRIs like fluoxetine. This hasn’t been explored in humans [49].
Other Pathways

Scientists are investigating whether the following hormones or drugs affect 5HT1A signaling in animals and cells:

  • T3 is being researched for augmenting antidepressants in animals. It is hypothesized to reduce the sensitivity of 5-HT1A (and 5HT1B) auto-receptors in the hypothalamus [50].
  • Estradiol is similarly being studied for accelerating the effects of SSRIs in animals [51].
  • Cortisol. Chronic exposure to cortisol desensitizes 5-HT1A autoreceptors receptors. Excess cortisol and using corticosteroids over the long term has many detrimental health effects [52].
  • Prescription, high-dose lithium theorized to increase 5HT1A postsynaptic sensitivity without affecting autoreceptors. Some researchers think this might, in part, be responsible for its mood-stabilizing action [53].
  • Transcranial Magnetic Stimulation (rTMS) is hypothesized to reduce the sensitivity of postsynaptic 5-HT1A receptors in the hypothalamus. Some researchers think that this may partially underlie its antidepressant mechanism. rTMS is approved for certain forms of treatment-resistant depression in Canada [5455].
Hypothesized to Modulate the 5HT1A Receptor

 

 

 

 

For autoreceptor, by exclusion principle, Butyrate, Curcumin, maybe Kudzu, maybe Ginkgo catch the eye. (Rhodiola would too, however when trying it onself, it clearly decreases receptor sensitivity/upregulates serotonin, aside from possibly increasing receptor density like others too. Yohimbine is messy, the others might be too weak or simply agonists which are not useful longterm.)

For postsynaptic, lithium seems interesting, increasing sensitivity short-term (probably acutely), possibly downregulating it longterm.

St. John's Wort is mostly postsynaptic upregulation AFTER taking it. You might not notice while taking it, and the preferred effect can be confused. It also upregulates 5HT2a strongly. (5HT2a is mostly subjective, I doubt you will find a clear answer on if you should want it more or less. However I think most find strong 5HT2 oppressive at some point.)

 

 

Glutamate antagonism is tricky, they all seem to work slightly differently (as in your comparison).


Edited by DaveX, 26 January 2020 - 01:20 PM.


#21 DaveX

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Posted 26 January 2020 - 05:22 PM

(Double-post, but can't edit.)

By the way, have you tried PQQ? I've heard it's supposed to help with glutamate disorders. I've often considered trying it myself.



#22 DaveX

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Posted 01 February 2020 - 03:32 PM

Regarding my statement about direct and after-effects of postsynaptic 5-HT1A antagonism, somehow I think this no longer applies, i.e, at least in the case of antagonism the effect seems to be pretty consistent both during and after, so that one doesn't have to distinguish or do the opposite. No idea why, but that's how it seems, and how most have treated it for some reason too...

#23 Keizo

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Posted 10 February 2020 - 07:38 AM

This is a pretty canned response and vague: Maybe try and deal indirectly with the serotonin levels by increasing dopamine activity. Especially since you say you don't respond well to choline. Choline and serotonin in some way has something of an antagonistic relationship with dopamine. I guess also some of the problems you describe could be said to relate to somewhat lacking self-control which in some ways relates to dopamine.

 

- - -

Anyway, I think Semax is pretty good, and seems rather benign. Some cognitive boost overall and slight anti-anxiety effect, perhaps you could get, who knows. I've used that one quite a bit mostly to just tone down my tension slightly and it seems useful.

 

The only things I could suggest, but that are unlikely to do much, would be vitamin d3, and L. Reuteri (specifically biogaia's gastrus). Those 2 for me seem to coincide with me developing a much better social dynamic with people, but it might be a lot of coincidence since I used to be very recluse. I do recall vitamin D3 being able to antagonize serotonin receptors in the gut, at least in some cases, and autism being related to too much serotonin activity there. L. Reuteri there also was a study related to autism on. (Not saying you have autism, but people with autism have weird vague tensions and oddities....and the serotonin thing) https://microbiomepo...ficits-in-mice/ For whatever reason I feel reuteri and d3 does help socially for me, but it's so hard to say, esp considering these probably work over time, and I've had various problems in terms of psychaitric and health (doubled by testicular size at age 23, perhaps due to slight malnourishment). For the record I don't have autism, just been a recluse for long due social anxiety in the past, altho I suppose my personality is slightly towards autism in a few ways, but I've never had trouble learning social things etc once I started trying. Only other diagnose I have is ADHD.

 

Third listed problem I think is pretty ordinary. It's like saying listening to 150 db music makes you loose focus in a chess game. Considering that you say you can still enjoy socializing and that you are somewhat normal I think you might be overthinking that point a bit. But maybe there's a pattern where that relates... 

 

"Could it be that my glutamate auto-receptors have been downregulated leading to over-active glutamate neurotransmission? Would Ketamine ultimately upregulate glutamate autoreceptors? What about sarcosine? Are there other anti-depressants like Ketamine that work through NMDA & AMPA action?" There are several substances with very similar effect to Ketamine, but I would guess that they are pretty much the same deal. For example there was one substance allegedly invented to have lower bladder related side effects, due to higher potency compared to ketamine (so less substance that could damage the body). I think it was methoxetamine. Anyway, Ketamine is very interesting, ofc at this time it might be rather fashionable to suggest it as a therapy for all kinds of things, but personally I do think it has potential (or some analogue etc) to treat all kinds of problems. 

 

As far as medications otherwise, for some people the vaguely speaking dopaminergic ones can help with social ease. You already tried Bupropion so maybe you are out of luck there (as far as simple anti depressants with some dopamine activity without a bunch serotonin increasing effects etc), unless you want to upgrade to some off-label d-amphetamine, which sometimes is used for depression. But you know it has it's fair share of problems, I don't necessarily want to encourage anyone even tho I'm myself benefiting from this substance (not so much for depression, just ADHD), it might have at least some potential for general cognitive boosting (but probably there are substances more specific for that, like perhaps NSI 189 you listed would be a little bit safer, or even Selank). Selegiline is another thing dopamine related, but I personally think it's unpredictable and not very pleasant some of the time, at times when I used that I had more social ease (I mostly used it for "general brain health" in short periods, trying to increase BDNF and getting slight rejuvenation of dopamine pathways for the long term).

 

I guess lastly I'll just mention Cerebrolysin, I've had great help from that substance when I had problems with tension, severe speech and cognitive problems (mostly related to benzodiazepine withdrawal). Sort of in the same ballpark as NSI-189 I suppose, altho more invasive to use.


Edited by Keizo, 10 February 2020 - 08:07 AM.

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#24 Infinite1

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Posted 08 March 2020 - 10:51 PM

You may wish to consider the possibility of biotoxin mediated pathology. Indeed the symptoms you mention coincide with psychiatric illness; however without any precipitating trauma or familial history of mental illness, this most likely wouldn't be anything more that tail chasing of downstream outward expression. I would suggest having your hormones checked over, in particular a 24 cortisol test in an unstressed and stressed context would be handy -- not sure how likely you would be able to obtain this however.

 

Your observation that you respond favorably to DXM perhaps suggests a higher than optimal glutaminergic activity, this would be consistent with biotoxin illnesses across the board. Do you have any history of residing or working within a water damaged building? They are a host of many virulent pathogens, mycotoxins/molds, VOC's, LPS, etc. Many people are finding pronounced systemic inflammation following even transient exposures, and for those of genetic predisposition ongoing successive sensitization may occur. In any case inflammation can perturb a multitude of physiologic processes, directly the HPA axis, and then further through maladaptation over time. Just something to consider if you haven't already.  



#25 Keizo

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Posted 10 March 2020 - 06:05 AM

I hope the experiment with NSI-189 works out well, and I'd be interest hearing about it. My past experience with cerebrolysin have me believe it basically gave me a really good and better baseline for being able to deal with stress and anxiety, and in some weird ways restore youthful feelings (alleviate depressive symptoms). I used it quite a bit for a few years, and seemed to have good long-lasting effects. Can imagine NSI-189 having similar long-term benefits.

You may wish to consider the possibility of biotoxin mediated pathology. Indeed the symptoms you mention coincide with psychiatric illness; however without any precipitating trauma or familial history of mental illness, this most likely wouldn't be anything more that tail chasing of downstream outward expression. I would suggest having your hormones checked over, in particular a 24 cortisol test in an unstressed and stressed context would be handy -- not sure how likely you would be able to obtain this however.

 

Your observation that you respond favorably to DXM perhaps suggests a higher than optimal glutaminergic activity, this would be consistent with biotoxin illnesses across the board. Do you have any history of residing or working within a water damaged building? They are a host of many virulent pathogens, mycotoxins/molds, VOC's, LPS, etc. Many people are finding pronounced systemic inflammation following even transient exposures, and for those of genetic predisposition ongoing successive sensitization may occur. In any case inflammation can perturb a multitude of physiologic processes, directly the HPA axis, and then further through maladaptation over time. Just something to consider if you haven't already.  

Speaking of cortisol. I wonder if the thread starter has experienced time based fluctuations in mood or wakefulness, beyond what might seem reasonable. So e.g. I periodically experience great or good mood or wakefulness in the morning, then it quickly dims down within a few (3-4) hours after waking, then I sometimes get it back very late in the evening. I assume this sort of thing would have quite a bit to do with e.g. cortisol. (the only obvious cause in my case might've been very mild chronic pain and mild chronic allergies I had at the time this was most pronounced)

 

(Now I don't really share the thread starters symptoms, or if I do I've grown so accustomed to it that it seems ordinary. But I do have dysthymia (more or less anyway, never bothered taking that up with doctors unless they ask) and have had for a long time, and a past history of social anxiety, current ADHD diagnose....)

 

 

 Other than that I deeply believe that humans (most) aren't meant or capable of being happy or content for long periods, and however real mine or someone else's problems are it doesn't necessarily help in the here and now to have plenty of time to think about things that don't have obvious solutions/rewards (or they might be hard to imagine). But of course there is no avoiding life, so we struggle and hopefully struggle well....whatever that means.


Edited by Keizo, 10 March 2020 - 06:11 AM.


#26 Keizo

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Posted 10 March 2020 - 06:13 AM

Were you a recluse in your early life? Could explain some of the problems with social interaction. Just that you haven't had the practice when it was the easiest to learn (and learn to feel comfortable).



#27 gamesguru

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Posted 11 April 2020 - 11:44 AM

I'm going to be the cynic here when I chime in with my belief that beyond any negativity of mind, beyond any failure as a child to absorb what is supposed later absorbable.. some patients display a very persistent, very innate lack of social fluidity that makes large groups less enjoyable.  This goes all the way to the extreme schizoid, who avoids even family and would prefer to isolate in a remote cabin in the woods.

 

But the schizoid disorder goes deeper than schizotypal ones.  The schizoid completely lacks a social reward circuitry, whereas the schizotype has one but it is impeded by their own paranoias and peculiarities, constricted affect, strange behavior, anxiety, aloofness, and discomfort with close relationships.



#28 DaveX

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Posted 14 April 2020 - 02:47 AM

The best NMDA antagonism experience I've had was with a few capsules/grams of Magnesium-L-Threonate, it feels way healthier than DXM, and creates a kind of fluency and feeling of the whole brain being in sync. Although it is a special mode of synchronicity and not ultimate flexibility. Which makes sense, since it's mostly antagonism, although in part it also seems like some things are working better and "faster" (like the fluency I'm speaking of). It has been a while since I've tried it. Anyway, I just want to mention it.

Regarding NMDA-antagonism making you feel better, I also want to mention CoQ10. It actually downregulates NMDA, even while maintaining it in a healthy manner and having special protective properties. It is quite interesting in that regard. For example, here it is speculated to help in an anti-NMDA receptor encephalitis, which is quite a vicious disease: https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/24710724
As a treatment in neurodegenerative diseases:
https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/12069110


And your symptoms actually sound to me more like a deficiency in serotonin, rather than too much of it, at least from where I'm sitting.

Edited by DaveX, 14 April 2020 - 02:50 AM.


#29 Furniture

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Posted 16 April 2020 - 07:32 PM

Were you a recluse in your early life? Could explain some of the problems with social interaction. Just that you haven't had the practice when it was the easiest to learn (and learn to feel comfortable).

 

No, I was not a recluse in any way, shape, or form. I'm fortunate to say that my childhood, teenage years, and early years as an adult were happy, non-traumatic, and perfectly "normal". The symptoms I described in my original post are very unlike me.  I just can't accept this as a clean Autism Spectrum Disorder. Not because there isn't overlap between ASD and my symptomatology and not because I'm fearful of the stigma of an ASD diagnosis. I can't reconcile this because there are so many signs that suggest this is not Autism, but instead something else. Something that mimics certain Autism traits; some sort of pseudo-aspergers blended with social anxiety.

 

This is a copy & paste of what I wrote in Post #7:

 

"

  • As an infant, I developed speech at the normal time.
  • I was highly social growing up and into my early twenties. I had lots of friends and normal relationships.
  • I have a strong empathetic side to myself. I tear up easily watching sad movies or youtube videos about elderly couples in love, people hearing for the first time, people commiting acts of kindness.
  • I don't avoid eye contact, in fact I like eye contact when I'm talking to someone, I'm just not cognitively at my best when doing so.
  • I understand social cues
  • I like to be around other people. In fact, I consider myself somewhat extroverted in that I gain energy from being around people, but I struggle with forming relationships these days because of the way I behave and the lack of emotions that I display at the right time.
  • I don't have preoccupations with specific topics
  • These symptoms didn't onset until my early to mid twenties. ASD develops very very early in life. The only times people are diagnosed with autism or aspergers later in life is because of a late diagnosis not a late onset (at least to the best of my knowledge)."


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#30 Furniture

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Posted 16 April 2020 - 07:42 PM

The best NMDA antagonism experience I've had was with a few capsules/grams of Magnesium-L-Threonate, it feels way healthier than DXM, and creates a kind of fluency and feeling of the whole brain being in sync. Although it is a special mode of synchronicity and not ultimate flexibility. Which makes sense, since it's mostly antagonism, although in part it also seems like some things are working better and "faster" (like the fluency I'm speaking of). It has been a while since I've tried it. Anyway, I just want to mention it.

Regarding NMDA-antagonism making you feel better, I also want to mention CoQ10. It actually downregulates NMDA, even while maintaining it in a healthy manner and having special protective properties. It is quite interesting in that regard. For example, here it is speculated to help in an anti-NMDA receptor encephalitis, which is quite a vicious disease: https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/24710724
As a treatment in neurodegenerative diseases:
https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/12069110


And your symptoms actually sound to me more like a deficiency in serotonin, rather than too much of it, at least from where I'm sitting.

 

 

I have tried CoQ10 in the form of Ubiquinol and did not perceive a change. Likewise, I have tried Mg Threonate (as well as several other forms of Magnesium such as Glycinate, Malate, Oxide, Chloride, and Taurate) and did not perceive a benefit for these specific symptoms. However, I took both of those supplements for a different purpose (general energy & health). Maybe I ought to try them again and keep my eye out for improvements in this arena. Although, this might make me more susceptible to a placebo effect....

 

But thank you for the suggestions! From the brief reading I've done, it seems Mg Threonate actually delivers more Magnesium inside the brain than any other form. The other forms may have enhanced bio-availability in the gut but lack this quality.







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