3083 replies to this topic

[Izan]

The hydroxychloroquine hype train says:

 

Hydroxychloroquine + zinc = all severely-ill patients are symptom-free in 8 to 12 hours
Hydroxychloroquine + nothing = nothing

 

https://abc7.com/cor...oquine/6079864/

Haha, I knew it!

 

Please jump on Dorian and Izan's zinc hype train!

 

Just kidding! Thank you for this article, it is very interesting.

[albedo]

The hydroxychloroquine hype train says:

 

Hydroxychloroquine + zinc = all severely-ill patients are symptom-free in 8 to 12 hours
Hydroxychloroquine + nothing = nothing

 

https://abc7.com/cor...oquine/6079864/

 

There is also a clinical trial in progress. Good find.

https://clinicaltria...how/NCT04326725
 

[tolerant]

There is a never ending parade of science showing that those with high solar exposure do better with a variety of disease. For centuries doctors would place patients next to open windows with a blanket.

 

I suspect that Vit D3 has become a cargo-cult, a proxy that science picks up on to reveal humans who have actually been exposed to the sun.

That means people went outside, took nice walks with their own muscles in use, maybe talked to someone and did some nice thinking while trillions of photons from the entire solar spectrum struck their exposed skin. Not just the UV-B. Also the infrared light.

 

Taking a Vit D3 pill will only give a very partial benefit of this activity.

 

I have a 300w Philips UV lamp which is very powerful, also have a Exo Terra UVB 25w E27 lamp a lot weaker which I place close to myself at work so to keep the inflow coming. Also have 2 250w Philips Infrared lamps that I light in the afternoons to simulate the sunset effect indoors.

 

If I get sick I intend to light all lamps on my balcony and lie down under a blanket on a bed in the fresh air all day if possible.

 

I agree that simulating sunlight indoors is probably very healthy, including for reasons we don't yet know about. In another COVID-19 thread where you claimed the same thing, another poster offered a link to a study on open-air treatment of the Spanish flu. The only mention of UVB in that study is in a reference to another study which says that, in the case of influenza, the data demonstrated "the efficacy of germicidal UV-irradiation in disinfection of air by reducing the concentration of viable organisms which, in turn, reduces the severity of respiratory infection when transmitted to the susceptible host." So that basically means that you have less of a chance catching a virus in sunlight than you do indoors.

 

I tried to research the effect of UV radiation on immunity, and it appears that it suppresses the immune system, which can be a good thing for autoimmune disorders (see attached file for a comprehensive recent review). So I guess UVB could be good in suppressing the "cytokine storm". I haven't read this entire thread, but is it a fact that the serious cases are caused by the "cytokine storm", and is there consensus on when in the prevention/treatment of COVID-19 you would want the immune system go from being active to being suppressed?

Attached Files

•  bernard2019.pdf   1.38MB   4 downloads

[osris]

If you are concerned about taking immune boosting supplements then you should look at taking

immune modulating supplements.  These type tend to improve and regulate your immune systems

so that it works better overall.

 

Can you suggest some? I'm not familiar with such modulating supplements.

That linked to article explains it pretty well. As one can see in that table, healthy tolerate maybe only 2-3 gram in on dose. In my case with multiple cronic conditions (in remission) I can easily take 10 g in one dose of ascorbic acid. For reaching such high doses as described in that article, one has to take as much as possible as many times as tolerated. With bowel flushing reduce the next dose a bid and condinue on the lower dose/lesser frequency. Only use pure ascorbic acid powder, since in such high doses you would get too much binders or fillers with caps/pills, as would be healthy.
 

 

Thanks.

[Mind]

* zorba990, that's a bizarre case report about ozone. It's super toxic, so I wouldn't try it in anything other than desperate patients. Perhaps it's acting hormetically on the immune system and killing senescent, metabolically unstable cells. "So far, every patient I have heard about who has received ozone therapy for this disease has recovered, including the two critically ill patients here." It's tragic when an unabashed conspiracy theorist like Dr. Rowen happens upon potentially lifesaving information, because they've cried too much wolf to have any social credit left. Ignore reputation. Focus on numbers and reproducibility.


 

 

 

Yes, ozone is extremely damaging (and explosive!), but perhaps this is negated by the fact that they drew the blood first, mixed in the ozone, then returned it to the patient. Just a guess: the extra (unstable) oxygen molecule is taken up quickly by the red blood cells, whatever is not taken up by the red blood cells, does its damage outside the patient's body. Thus when the blood is reintroduced, it no longer has active ozone, but it is fully loaded with oxygen. 

Edited by Mind, 07 April 2020 - 06:29 PM.

[AppliedBio]

The hydroxychloroquine hype train says:

 

Hydroxychloroquine + zinc = all severely-ill patients are symptom-free in 8 to 12 hours
Hydroxychloroquine + nothing = nothing

 

https://abc7.com/cor...oquine/6079864/

 

Not necessarily bashing HCQ here since I do still believe it's just as good as anything else out there at the moment (though not perfect), but we should keep in mind that this doctor's interpretation of "very, very ill" is probably different from what most researchers consider "severe" in the context of COVID-19. The research is showing that antiviral therapies seem to be notorious for being much less effective for ICU patients who have been intubated. I wouldn't say that's too surprising since even with something like the flu, antiviral treatment is only effective in the first couple days. Now the doctor in the video, Dr. Anthony Cardillo, is CEO of an urgent care network. Unless anyone can find evidence he is prescribing in hospitals, I will presume he is only prescribing to patients in urgent care. With that said, do you know of any urgent care facilities with ICU beds that intubate patients? I certainly don't. So I doubt that many of his patients he has prescribed HCQ for have actually been "very, very ill."

 

Nevertheless, this is still strong anecdotal support for initiating HCQ antiviral treatment as early as possible which is very encouraging.

 

Another note - I also wonder if the good results he's seen with zinc are only in patients with low zinc status. We know that this hits older people harder, and older people are more likely to have lowered zinc levels. And a trial on zinc supplementation in the elderly only showed a benefit in those in low zinc status. Yet, there is also evidence that zinc lozenge administration can decrease common cold duration by 40%. Just thinking out loud here - not trying to make a point one way or the other.

Edited by AppliedBio, 07 April 2020 - 06:05 PM.

[Daniel Cooper]

Yes, ozone is extremely damaging (and explosive!), but perhaps this is negated by the fact that they drew the blood first, mixed in the ozone, then returned it to the patient. Just  guess: the extra (unstable) oxygen molecule is taken up quickly by the red blood cells, whatever is not taken up by the red blood cells, does its damage outside the patient's body. Thus when the blood is reintroduced, it is no longer has active ozone, but it is fully loaded with oxygen. 

 

If that's true, isn't the only effect you're achieving is perhaps "super oxygenating" the patient's blood?  

 

I suppose you could test hyperbaric oxygen to see if you got the same effect.

[Daniel Cooper]

So here's a question for the class ......

 

Let's say you came down sick with covid-19 tomorrow.  It's just started, but you are up and about and just feeling very bad.  Fever, some bronchial congestion, a little tightness, that sort of thing.  But, you have not evolved into serious pneumonia or any of the other life threatening complications.

 

If you had chloroquine, azithromycin, and zinc on hand ..... would you take them at this stage or would you want to see if your symptoms where evolving in a more serious direction?

 

 

[yz69]

Here's another HCQ success story

https://www.wpxi.com...TOH25XYPSP64VE/

[Rosanna]

Hope it's ok to jump in again.  I've had symptoms for 5 days (plus about 8 days before that I had very mild symptoms, shivery legs.....took elderberry, felt ok after a few days but then things returned).

 

In the last 5 days I get a high temp (for me) every evening and a bit of a cough, at night.  The cough really is nothing.  No fever, but I'm hypothyroid and often have a fever of 35C!, so 36.6C upwards starts to feel hot, and 36.9C usually means I'm unwell)

 

I stopped the elderberry 5 days ago, kept up the echinacea, but stopped that 2 days ago.  

 

I will read through this again but it's a lot to read with symptoms.......Can I ask again what is the thinking on Echinacea?  And Green Tea?  (frustrating about elderberry and resveratrol, both showing anti viral effects but both also potentially making things worse)

 

Thanks, just thinking I need to try and get on top of this now, even though these symptoms are not too bad, it's been about 2.5 weeks overall.  :-)

[Daniel Cooper]

Rosanna - 

 

I'm not really up on elderberry and resveratrol, but from where I stand Green Tea (EGCG source) looks good to me.  I might seek out a supplement to get more than you're likely to get from tea.

 

I'd definitely add 30mg/day zinc and quercetin.  For quercetin my plan is to supplement 500mg per day prophylactically (currently doing).  If I actually got sick, I've got EMIQ (enzymatically modified iso-quercetin) on hand that I will add on at about 100 mg per day and will probably add 100mg of luteolin as well, only during the period whilst ill.

 

To me, the picture is murky on elderberry.  It is far less murky on quercetin and zinc.  My plan is to use the things that have the best evidence and avoid things that are less clear.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Rosanna]

Rosanna - 

 

I'm not really up on elderberry and resveratrol, but from where I stand Green Tea (EGCG source) looks good to me.  I might seek out a supplement to get more than you're likely to get from tea.

 

I'd definitely add 30mg/day zinc and quercetin.  For quercetin my plan is to supplement 500mg per day prophylactically (currently doing).  If I actually got sick, I've got EMIQ (enzymatically modified iso-quercetin) on hand that I will add on at about 100 mg per day and will probably add 100mg of luteolin as well, only during the period whilst ill.

 

To me, the picture is murky on elderberry.  It is far less murky on quercetin and zinc.  My plan is to use the things that have the best evidence and avoid things that are less clear.

 

Thanks for that....I'll try and get Green Tea and quercetin supplements delivered tomorrow.  I have zinc supplements.

 

Yesterday I had no temperature, so hoping today is a bit of a blip.

 

Appreciate your reply  :-)

[Florin]

Not necessarily bashing HCQ here since I do still believe it's just as good as anything else out there at the moment (though not perfect), but we should keep in mind that this doctor's interpretation of "very, very ill" is probably different from what most researchers consider "severe" in the context of COVID-19. The research is showing that antiviral therapies seem to be notorious for being much less effective for ICU patients who have been intubated. I wouldn't say that's too surprising since even with something like the flu, antiviral treatment is only effective in the first couple days. Now the doctor in the video, Dr. Anthony Cardillo, is CEO of an urgent care network. Unless anyone can find evidence he is prescribing in hospitals, I will presume he is only prescribing to patients in urgent care. With that said, do you know of any urgent care facilities with ICU beds that intubate patients? I certainly don't. So I doubt that many of his patients he has prescribed HCQ for have actually been "very, very ill."

 

Nevertheless, this is still strong anecdotal support for initiating HCQ antiviral treatment as early as possible which is very encouraging.

 

Another note - I also wonder if the good results he's seen with zinc are only in patients with low zinc status. We know that this hits older people harder, and older people are more likely to have lowered zinc levels. And a trial on zinc supplementation in the elderly only showed a benefit in those in low zinc status. Yet, there is also evidence that zinc lozenge administration can decrease common cold duration by 40%. Just thinking out loud here - not trying to make a point one way or the other.

 

Yeah, I agree with most of that, and there are other problems with this as well. It probably wasn't blinded. We don't know other important info such as the number, age, and health status of the patients. How long was the follow-up? Etcetera. That's why I called it a hype train.

 

However, it seems more interesting than anything else that has been reported not only because of H+Z's effect on the "very, very ill" (which might not be ICU-ill but isn't mild either) but for the fact that H by itself didn't work.

 

Some sites claim that Dr. Anthony Cardillo is affiliated with a hospital, so it's not inconceivable that he could have admitted some of these patients or that he's prescribing the stuff to patients in the hospital. One would think that he'd mention that little fact (especially if his patients were put in the ICU) in the interview, but he doesn't.

 

I wonder if zinc by itself might have the same effect as H+Z.

Edited by Florin, 07 April 2020 - 08:21 PM.

[xEva]

So here's a question for the class ......

 

Let's say you came down sick with covid-19 tomorrow.  It's just started, but you are up and about and just feeling very bad.  Fever, some bronchial congestion, a little tightness, that sort of thing.  But, you have not evolved into serious pneumonia or any of the other life threatening complications.

 

If you had chloroquine, azithromycin, and zinc on hand ..... would you take them at this stage or would you want to see if your symptoms where evolving in a more serious direction?

 

 

Yes I'm planning to take the combo. plus vit C.

 

I think it's crazy to sit and wait for symptoms to worsen. Apparently, covid can destroy your lungs without you noticing much -- until you suddenly can't get enough O2. That's the scary part about this virus. How quickly it can suddenly turn to the worse. It's like one of the very first Italian deaths, remember? Husband and wife, in their 50s, were left at home since their symptoms were not that bad (she was totally asymptomatic, he had it worse). And after about a week+ quite suddenly he began to deteriorate. He died in the ambulance on the way to the hospital. The same story, just this past week, with a NYC doctor who also was recovering at home. All was fine and then-- He did not even make it till the arrival of the ambulance.

 

But of course it all depends on your situation and your risk assessment. I was very very anxious about this virus until the French study came out. I knew it immediately intuitively that this combo will work for me.

 

 

By the way, about restrictions placed on hydroxychloroquine. You may think that this is because  people are hording it. Not so. Hospitals began to stockpile it even before Trump's announcement back in March. They were doing it in waves, apparently in response to each new study on chloroquine and hydroxychloroquine coming out.  Is there REALLY a shortage of Hydroxychloroquine? Part 1

Edited by xEva, 07 April 2020 - 09:38 PM.

[lancebr]

Can you suggest some? I'm not familiar with such modulating supplements.

 

Thanks.

 

One of the more popular immune-modulating is Astragalus.

 

Here is a good description about how they work:

 

"Therapeutically, these immunomodulators are used to address low immune resilience, for example, individuals who experience

frequent infections. Immunomodulators are also used when the immune system is overactive, as is the case of allergies and

autoimmunity. Immunomodulators also help to balance the endocrine and nervous systems, which, in turn, regulate immunity.

 

Another mode of action is the regulation of T helper cell (Th1 and Th2) balance, which involves the equilibrium of

cell-mediated (T cells) and antibody-mediated (B cells) immunity."

 

Some of these are:

 

Astragalus

Glucan

Panax Ginseng

Cordyceps

Andographis

Mulberry

Siberian Ginseng

[lancebr]

Yes I'm planning to take the combo. plus vit C.

 

I think it's crazy to sit and wait for symptoms to worsen. Apparently, covid can destroy your lungs without you noticing much -- until you suddenly can't breathe. That's the scary part about this virus. How quickly it can suddenly turn to the worse. It's like the one of the very first Italian deaths, remember? Husband and wife, in their 50s, were left at home since their symptoms were not that bad (she was totally asymptomatic, he had it worse). And after about a week+ quite suddenly he began to deteriorate. He died in the ambulance on the way to the hospital. The same story, just this past week, with a NYC doctor who also was recovering at home. All was fine and then-- He did not even make it till the arrival of the ambulance.

 

But of course it all depends on your situation and your risk assessment. I was very very anxious about this virus until the French study came out. I knew it immediately intuitively that this combo will work for me.

 

 

By the way, about restrictions placed on hydroxychloroquine. You may think that this is because  people are hording it. Not so. Hospitals began to stockpile it even before Trump's announcement back in March. They were doing it in waves, apparently in response to each new study on chloroquine and hydroxychloroquine coming out.  (the ref is coming)

 

So would you be expecting for a doctor to prescribe the combo for you or would you have access to it yourself?

 

It seems like some hospitals and doctors are still not prescribing it or using it for patients, so since it is something

needed to take before it becomes to late to take it then making sure to have immediate access to it is very important.

 

I was glad to see that one doctor who said he was having success with just hydroxychloroquine and zinc.  I get a

little nervous self medicating when mixing hydroxychloroquine and arozthymycin antibiotic since both together can

cause serious heart conditions.

Edited by lancebr, 07 April 2020 - 09:24 PM.

[Daniel Cooper]

I've got the complication that I've got the phosphate form of chloroquine in bulk powder rather than nice 200mg hydroxychloroquine tablets meant for human consumption.  In fact, it is something of a leap of faith that what I've got is actually chloroquine phosphate.  It was all I could find back in mid February that I could obtain without going through uncooperative doctors.  

 

I had always envisioned it as a last ditch effort if I became very sick and hospitals could not get chloroquine or doctors were unwilling to try it.  However, the evidence is starting to roll in that if it works, it works far better when taken earlier in the disease process.  Which puts me in a bit of a pickle, do I take chloroquine phosphate of somewhat ambiguous pedigree before I get really sick, or do I wait till I'm really sick when it is less likely to work. 

 

I'm taking zinc and quercetin prophylactically.  Maybe that will keep me from getting sick enough that I'll have to consider this question.

 

 

 

 

[xEva]

So would you be expecting for a doctor to prescribe the combo for you or would you have access to it yourself?

 

It seems like some hospitals and doctors are still not prescribing it or using it for patients, so since it is something

needed to take before it becomes to late to take it then making sure to have immediate access to it is very important.

 

I was glad to see that one doctor who said he was having success with just hydroxychloroquine and zinc.  I get a

little nervous self medicating when mixing hydroxychloroquine and arozthymycin antibiotic since both together can

cause serious heart conditions.

 

my understanding is, you can't get hydroxychloroquine anymore, even with prescription. https://www.youtube....h?v=RHCRXy-coNE

 

I happen to have enough azithromycin and one old blister pack of 10 pills chloroquine, 300mg, it expired 2 years ago. From what I googled, unfortunately it's not one of those drugs that can last almost a decade if stored properly. On the plus side, it just looses some potency rather than deteriorating into something toxic. guess I'd have to be cautious with it.

[lancebr]

I've got the complication that I've got the phosphate form of chloroquine in bulk powder rather than nice 200mg hydroxychloroquine tablets meant for human consumption.  In fact, it is something of a leap of faith that what I've got is actually chloroquine phosphate.  It was all I could find back in mid February that I could obtain without going through uncooperative doctors.  

 

I had always envisioned it as a last ditch effort if I became very sick and hospitals could not get chloroquine or doctors were unwilling to try it.  However, the evidence is starting to roll in that if it works, it works far better when taken earlier in the disease process.  Which puts me in a bit of a pickle, do I take chloroquine phosphate of somewhat ambiguous pedigree before I get really sick, or do I wait till I'm really sick when it is less likely to work. 

 

I'm taking zinc and quercetin prophylactically.  Maybe that will keep me from getting sick enough that I'll have to consider this question.

 

China was originally using the Chloroquine phosphate and when I first heard about it I was able

to get a prescription for the Chloroquine phosphate which I got filled in March.  Then I heard about

Hydroxychloroquine working just as good but having less side effects as the chloroquine. I tried getting

some hydroxychloroquine but was not able to.  So I am stuck with just regular chloroquine.

 

I guess as a last resort can take the regular chloroquine and zinc.  I would be to scared to take the

azorthymicin antibiotic with it unless I was under the care of a doctor who could monitor my heart.

 

 

 

 

[Daniel Cooper]

Yeah, when I procured my choloroquine I was looking that SARs paper that the Chinese researchers did a decade ago.  They used the phosphate form so that's what I went for.  By the time they started talking about the hydroxy form covid-19 was a big deal globally and it was very difficult to get.  

 

My only issue is whether it really is chloroquine phosphate.  You never know when you're dealing with Asian suppliers. 

 

 

[lancebr]

my understanding is, you can't get hydroxychloroquine anymore, even with prescription. https://www.youtube....h?v=RHCRXy-coNE

 

I happen to have enough azithromycin and one old blister pack of 10 pills chloroquine, 300mg, it expired 2 years ago. From what I googled, unfortunately it's not one of those drugs that can last almost a decade if stored properly. On the plus side, it just looses some potency rather than deteriorating into something toxic. guess I'd have to be cautious with it.

 

Yeh I have tried every source I can think of to get hydroxychloroquine and everywhere I have looked it is

no longer in stock.

 

I also have the regular chloroquine which supposedly has more side effect than the hydroxy type...but I

guess if I got the covid it would be better to take the regular chloroquine then die from the covid if it gets

that bad.

 

I have read that the main reason for using the azithromycin is to make sure that bacterial infection does

not happen with the pneumonia....I know that doxycyline is an antibiotic that is prescribed for pneumonia

and I do have some of that so might just throw that in for the bacterial part of the combo.

 

 

[joelcairo]

The way this disease can seem to regress and then come roaring back to overwhelm the patient makes me think that lymphocyte exhaustion is a big part of the explanation for the mortality rate.

 

From the Frontiers website... "Exhausted T cells typically express co-inhibitory receptors such as PD-1, Tim-3 and CTLA-4, and the REVERSAL OF T CELL EXHAUSTION by blocking these co-inhibitory receptors has received remarkable attention in the field of immunotherapy and tumor regression."

 

I believe there are supplements or off-label drugs which can inhibit PD-1 (I have notes about apigenin & ellagic acid but haven't looked at them in this context). I don't think I have ever found an inhibitor for CTLA-4, except for monoclonal antibodies which are horrendously expensive. I have never looked into Tim-3.

 

I'm not really qualified to debate this topic at a technical level, but I wanted to get these ideas out there in case they are useful.

 

[joelcairo]

Looking at the studies in more detail, the two substances I mentioned, apigenin & ellagic acid, both inhibit the expression of PD-L1, which is the ligand for PD-1, in cancer cells. Whether this could be beneficial in the context of immune response to a virus I am not sure. Anyway there are other strategies for reversing T cell exhaustion which I am starting to look into.

 

[Added - Reishi lowers PD-1]

Edited by joelcairo, 07 April 2020 - 11:08 PM.

[Rosanna]

Holy Basil to increase levels of T cells?  

 

Any thoughts / knowledge on this?  I've got boxes of the tea...

[thompson92]

Anybody else using Lactoferrin in their strategy and why?  This was at one time on my list for antiviral stuff, but something about it made me hesitant to use it even though it has good antiviral activity in theory.  Maybe it was the iron that made me wary of it, I don't remember.

 

I'm using it.

 

1)  It interferes with the virus ability to attach to host cell membrane by blocking HSPGs and this M protein in the virus is partially used by the virus to navigate to an ACE2 receptor where the S-protein enters.

 

2) Expression of the Lactoferrin gene was the highest upregulated gene in SARS-CoV1 cohort of PBMCs.

 

I am still looking into exactly how Lactoferrin works.  I think it upregulates NK cells, which would be huge, but the actual efficiency (cytotoxicity) of those cells may be questionable. Upon symptoms, I intend to dose 2 grams per day in two equally divided doses.  I take nothing now.

 

 

1.  Lang, J., Yang, N., Deng, J., Liu, K., Yang, P., Zhang, G., & Jiang, C. (2011). Inhibition of SARS Pseudovirus Cell Entry by Lactoferrin Binding to Heparan Sulfate Proteoglycans. Plos ONE, 6(8), e23710. doi:10.1371/journal.pone.0023710

 

1.  Milewska, A., M. Zarebski, P. Nowak, K. Stozek, J. Potempa, and K. Pyrc. 2014. "Human Coronavirus NL63 Utilizes Heparan Sulfate Proteoglycans For Attachment To Target Cells". Journal Of Virology 88 (22): 13221-13230. American Society for Microbiology. doi:10.1128/jvi.02078-14.

 

2.  Reghunathan, R., Jayapal, M., Hsu, L., Chng, H., Tai, D., Leung, B., & Melendez, A. (2005). BMC Immunology, 6(1), 2. doi:10.1186/1471-2172-6-2

[thompson92]

Saw a post on another page about Vitamin D increasing IL-1B which they say you do not

want to happen if you get this virus:

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC3675149/

 

https://scholar.goog...monocytic cells

 

Any thought on that?

 

I'm still trying to fully understand the immune response and immune system.  As of now, I don't think it's an issue -- or at least nearly as big an issue as the benefits offered by Vitamin D.  Part of this is genetics and we don't know who is going to have a really poor innate immune response and thus, a huge counterregulatory cytokine response, so it's hard to know.  I take 4-5000 IU per day.

 

I'm honestly kind of burnt out looking at this virus and need to take a break, I will try to finish looking at this stuff over the weekend, I think.

[Florin]

Hand sanitizer won't work when the coronavirus is suspended in wet mucus. Hand washing with even plain water for 30 seconds is more effective.

 

https://newsnetwork....rs-cov-2-virus/

https://www.sciencen...lling-flu-virus

Edited by Florin, 07 April 2020 - 11:42 PM.

[kurdishfella]

sweden had a increase in sars-v2 patients and death. A lot of the young were vegans according to a hospital. could it be because they are possibly deficient in vitamin d, zinc and cholesterol? lucky for them they get plenty of vitamin c. but is it enough? (all important for proper immune function). 

Also on another note a lot of the deaths are somali immigrants which i think has to do with their race being so mixed causing a weaker immune system.   

Edited by kurdishfella, 08 April 2020 - 12:00 AM.

[Dorian Grey]

So here's a question for the class ......

 

Let's say you came down sick with covid-19 tomorrow.  It's just started, but you are up and about and just feeling very bad.  Fever, some bronchial congestion, a little tightness, that sort of thing.  But, you have not evolved into serious pneumonia or any of the other life threatening complications.

 

If you had chloroquine, azithromycin, and zinc on hand ..... would you take them at this stage or would you want to see if your symptoms where evolving in a more serious direction?

 

I would love the opportunity to start all three at the fist signs of COVID.  Problem is, the protocol for chloroquine meds probably requires you to have a confirmed positive test, which may take days to get done, and even then many of the trials (which I assume you must be eligible for) may initiate treatment only in those who's disease appears to be progressing, to avoid patients who would improve on their own from skewing the results.  

 

Speaking of being eligible for a trial...  I would NEVER admit to my doctor any self treatment or supplement use, as these may exclude you from eligibility.  

[Dorian Grey]

Yeah, when I procured my choloroquine I was looking that SARs paper that the Chinese researchers did a decade ago.  They used the phosphate form so that's what I went for.  By the time they started talking about the hydroxy form covid-19 was a big deal globally and it was very difficult to get.  

 

My only issue is whether it really is chloroquine phosphate.  You never know when you're dealing with Asian suppliers. 

 

I'd be careful with chloroquine powder.  The therapeutic window is quite narrow.  A wee bit too much and cardiac QT can become Q with no T (asystole!)

 

Don't know if you've got a "Head Shop" in your area, but many of them have drug scales that accurately measure down to milligram level.  I wouldn't test dose over 100mg to start, & chloroquine has a long half life (days, not hours)

 

I've been wondering in those replete with zinc, whether lower doses of chloroquine (or even quinine) might be effective with less risk of cardiac issues.  They are dosing chloroquine and HCQ based on what was needed for malaria, lupus & RA, which is near the toxic limit.  It may be that for COVID, less may suffice. 

 

My sis was prescribed chloroquine before her Africa trip and her doc was very casual about it.  "Here's your scrip...  Bon Voyage".  She said it gave her a bit of diarrhea, but nothing more.