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Protecting from Coronavirus - Supplements & Therapies

coronavirus sars wuhan coronavirus 2019-ncov flu influenza disease epidemics viruses immunity biohacking

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#811 Hebbeh

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Posted Yesterday, 04:48 AM

It's this Twitter thread:

https://twitter.com/...628906472980482

 

discussing this paper amongst others

https://chemrxiv.org...phyrin/11938173

 

https://archive.is/ONUmi

 

Suffice it to say I'm skeptical if this is correct as extreme symptoms leading to death would be evenly distributed across all age groups rather than targeting predominantly the elderly if this was the case.  And what about the groups that experience just mild symptoms?  This is a computer modeling study that doesn't fit real world observations.

 

This was discussed in this thread starting in post 88 here:

 

https://www.longecit...olutions/page-3



#812 Kalliste

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Posted Yesterday, 06:21 AM

Suffice it to say I'm skeptical if this is correct as extreme symptoms leading to death would be evenly distributed across all age groups rather than targeting predominantly the elderly if this was the case.  And what about the groups that experience just mild symptoms?  This is a computer modeling study that doesn't fit real world observations.

 

This was discussed in this thread starting in post 88 here:

 

https://www.longecit...olutions/page-3

 

If, and mark my words, IF there is an iron angle to this you would expect those with the most iron and the worst antioxidation to be hit worst. Who are those? Old men with diabetes would come to mind.

Women have menstruation to keep them in check. They are also not dropping dead.

 

But maybe I'm just iron-sperg posting here. 

 

Will any antioxidant help with this? We don't know, but we know they are already being used. Or is China trolling us with reports of C-vitamin use for instance? 

We now IV-C is good for sepsis. 

We also now that any unpatented substance is impossible to research, even with crowdfunding. 

 

Big companies ready their weapons when somebody even tries to bring an alternative to their patented stuff. 

 

 

Merck made a "hit list" of doctors who criticized Vioxx according to testimony in a Vioxx class action case in Australia. The list, emailed between Merck employees, contained doctors' names with the labels "neutralise," "neutralised" or "discredit" next to them.

https://www.cbsnews....enting-doctors/


Edited by Kalliste, Yesterday, 06:23 AM.

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#813 albedo

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Posted Yesterday, 06:38 AM

Regarding iron in particular I guess it is a matter of homeostasis.

This is from Dr David Sinclair's blog:

 

"...My advice to a friend was to get in the best physical and mental shape these next couple of months:

Maintain cardio fitness, which will increase capillary and red blood cell counts. Lift weights if possible. Move.

Don’t be low in iron but also don’t overdose.

Keep taking your medicines unless an MD says to stop.

Eat less often during the day. I skip at least one meal, usually breakfast, and eat sensibly at other meals.

Avoid super intense exercise or long-term fasting.

Take 2500 - 5000 IU of vitamin D3 a day, which doctors say keeps your immune system in good shape.

Keep blood sugar levels in check by avoiding sugar and processed grains.

Focus on plants. Meats should include fish, preferably on the low end of the food chain to avoid heavy metals.

Eat colored plants, either fresh or snap-frozen, and don’t overcook them. They contain xenohormetic molecules that activate cell defenses.

Include nuts, avocado, and olive oil in your diet. Oleic acid from these foods will activate SIRT1, the defense enzyme, the same way resveratrol does (fasting also liberates oleic acid from fat stores). 

Keep humidity up in the home to maintain airway health and mucus. If your house isn’t humidified, get a humidifier for the bedroom.

Turn off breaking news channels. Read a book. Listen to a podcast. Make something.

Get sufficient sleep. Consider L-theonine. Avoid screens at night. Avoid big meals and alcohol near bedtime. Download f.lux software to dim the screens. If you use your phone in bed, wear blue-light blocking glasses..."

 



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#814 Kalliste

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Posted Yesterday, 07:01 AM

A bad study on HCQ from France

https://www.scienced...399077X20300858

 

 

No Evidence of Rapid Antiviral Clearance or Clinical Benefit with the Combination of
Hydroxychloroquine and Azithromycin in Patients with Severe COVID-19 Infection.
Jean Michel Molina1-3, Constance Delaugerre2-4, Jerome Le Goff2-4, Breno Mela-Lima1, Diane
Ponscarme1, Lauriane Goldwirt5, and Nathalie de Castro1.
1 Infectious Diseases Department, Saint Louis Hospital, 75010 Paris, France
1Université de Paris, 75000 Paris, France.
3U944 INSERM, Université de Paris, 75000 Paris, France
4Virology Department, APHP-Saint Louis Hospital, 75010 Paris, France
5Pharmacology Department, APHP, Saint-Louis Hospital, 75010 Paris, France
Corresponding author: Dr. Jean-michel Molina; Infectious Diseases Department, APHP-Saint
Louis Hospital, 1 avenue Claude Vellefaux, 75010 Paris, France; Tel: +33.1.42.49.90.66;
Email : jean-michel.molina@aphp.fr
The COVID-19 epidemic is the worst worldwide pandemic in a century with more than 500,000 cases and 25,000 deaths so far. In France, more than 30,000 cases have been reported up to March 27, and nearly 2,000 have died. 
Pending the availability of a vaccine, there is a critical need to identify effective treatments and a number of clinical trials have been implemented worldwide. 
Chloroquine analogs have been shown to inhibit the acidification of endosomes and to exhibit in vitro a non specific antiviral activity at high micromolar concentration against a broad range of emerging virus (HIV, dengue, hepatitis C, chikungunya, influenza, Ebola, SARS and MERS viruses) and more recently COVID-19 (1-2). 
In France, following the results of a clinical study in Marseille, there is considerable interest for the use of hydroxychloroquine to treat COVID-19 disease, and the French Ministry of Health recently allowed the use of hydroxychloroquine to treat COVID-19 disease pending the results of ongoing clinical trials (3). 
In their study, Gautret et al. reported a 100% viral clearance in nasopharyngeal swabs in 6 patients after 5 and 6 days of the combination of hydroxychloroquine and azithromycin (3).
Page 2 of 3
Journal Pre-proof
This rate of viral clearance was lower with hydroxychloroquine alone (57.1%) and was only 12.5% in patients who did not receive hydroxychloroquine (p< 0.001).
Such a rapid and full viral clearance was quite unexpected and we wished to assess in a prospective study virologic and clinical outcomes of 11 consecutive patients hospitalized in our department who received hydroxychloroquine (600 mg/d for 10 days) and azithromycin (500 mg Day 1 and 250 mg days 2 to 5) using the same dosing regimen reported by Gautret et al. (3). 
There were 7 men and 4 women with a mean age of 58.7 years (range: 20-77), 8 had significant comorbidities associated with poor outcomes (obesity: 2; solid cancer: 3; hematological cancer: 2; HIV-infection: 1). 
At the time of treatment initiation, 10/11 had fever and received nasal oxygen therapy. Within 5 days, one patient died, two were transferred to the ICU. In one patient, hydroxychloroquine and azithromycin were discontinued after 4 days because of a prolongation of the QT interval from 405 ms before treatment to 460 and 470 ms under the combination. Mean through blood concentration of hydroxychloroquine was 678 ng/mL (range: 381-891) at days 3-7 after treatment initiation.
Repeated nasopharyngeal swabs in 10 patients (not done in the patient who died) using a qualitative PCR assay (nucleic acid extraction using Nuclisens Easy Mag®, Biomerieux and amplification with RealStar SARS CoV-2®, Altona), were still positive for SARS-CoV2 RNA in 8/10 patients (80%, 95% confidence interval: 49-94) at days 5 to 6 after treatment initiation. 
These virologic results stand in contrast with those reported by Gautret et al. and cast doubts about the strong antiviral efficacy of this combination. Furthermore, in their report Gautret et al also reported one death and three transfers to the ICU among the 26 patients who received hydroxychloroquine, also underlining the poor clinical outcome with this combination. 
In addition, a recent study from China in individuals with COVID-19 found no difference in the rate of virologic clearance at 7 days with or without 5 days of hydroxychloroquine, and no difference in clinical outcomes (duration of hospitalization, temperature normalization, radiological progression) (4). These results are consistent with the lack of virologic or clinical benefit of chloroquine in a number of viral infections where it was assessed for treatment or prophylaxis with sometimes a deleterious effect on viral replication (5-8). 
In summary, despite a reported antiviral activity of chloroquine against COVID-19 in vitro, we found no evidence of a strong antiviral activity or clinical benefit of the combination of hydroxychloroquine and azithromycin for the treatment of our hospitalized patients with severe COVID-19. Ongoing randomized clinical trials with hydroxychloroquine should provide a definitive answer regarding the alleged efficacy of this combination and will assess its safety. 
Déclaration de liens d’intérêts : Les auteurs déclarent ne pas avoir de lien d’intérêts

 

 



#815 Hebbeh

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Posted Yesterday, 09:17 AM

If, and mark my words, IF there is an iron angle to this you would expect those with the most iron and the worst antioxidation to be hit worst. Who are those? Old men with diabetes would come to mind.
Women have menstruation to keep them in check. They are also not dropping dead.

But maybe I'm just iron-sperg posting here. /[/url]

However, that theory claims COVID-19 kills by destroying your hemoglobin which would be independent of your iron status as an old man or menstrual women. The theory claims you become hypoxic from lack of working hemoglobin and that is what kills you. And if true, then destroyed hemoglobin is independent of iron status and no amount of vitamin C is going to fix the destroyed hemoglobin.
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#816 thompson92

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Posted Yesterday, 09:30 AM

However, that theory claims COVID-19 kills by destroying your hemoglobin which would be independent of your iron status as an old man or menstrual women. The theory claims you become hypoxic from lack of working hemoglobin and that is what kills you. And if true, then destroyed hemoglobin is independent of iron status and no amount of vitamin C is going to fix the destroyed hemoglobin.

 

Presumably there is a high level of ROS from the iron being removed from the hemoglobin.  It's not really independent, it's another issue for your antioxidant system to deal with because otherwise -- what protein is sequestering the Fe?  It's going to react somewhere.


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#817 Hebbeh

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Posted Yesterday, 09:34 AM

Presumably there is a high level of ROS from the iron being removed from the hemoglobin. It's not really independent, it's another issue for your antioxidant system to deal with because otherwise -- what protein is sequestering the Fe? It's going to react somewhere.


If you have no working hemoglobin then iron would be the least of your worries.

#818 Kalliste

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Posted Yesterday, 09:34 AM

The argument has been made that vitamin C will interact with the virus before the damage to Hemoglobin happens and the Vitamin C (and other antioxidant systems) would be able to prevent at least some of the oxidative insult to the lungs by interfering with the iron (fenton Chemistry?) that produce oxidative damage to lung tissue.

 

Anyway, many antioxidants are fairly harmless in the short run (I don't like long term Vit C it interfers with hormetic effects) so I wonder if we turn it around, do you expect the disease to be even worse in a patient who get <insert=Antioxidant Cocktail>?



#819 Hebbeh

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Posted Yesterday, 09:40 AM

The argument has been made that vitamin C will interact with the virus before the damage to Hemoglobin happens and the Vitamin C (and other antioxidant systems) would be able to prevent at least some of the oxidative insult to the lungs by interfering with the iron (fenton Chemistry?) that produce oxidative damage to lung tissue.

Anyway, many antioxidants are fairly harmless in the short run (I don't like long term Vit C it interfers with hormetic effects) so I wonder if we turn it around, do you expect the disease to be even worse in a patient who get <insert=Antioxidant Cocktail>?


In this theory, how would vitamin C prevent the damage to the hemoglobin from occurring? If true, I don't see how vitamin C protects the hemoglobin from damage.

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#820 sciack

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Posted Yesterday, 11:08 AM

However, that theory claims COVID-19 kills by destroying your hemoglobin which would be independent of your iron status as an old man or menstrual women. The theory claims you become hypoxic from lack of working hemoglobin and that is what kills you. And if true, then destroyed hemoglobin is independent of iron status and no amount of vitamin C is going to fix the destroyed hemoglobin.

And where this theory comes from? From what I read high hemoglobin for example is a higher risk to develop a severe Covid



#821 osris

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Posted Yesterday, 11:09 AM

Yes it is bad, because the binders and fillers will add up to many grams too. Not negligible at all. Having to modulate the negative effects of so much junk, you better would go without vitamin C pills or capsules in the many grams range.

 

Wikipedia is sponsored by the pharmaceutical industry, therefore don't expect anything evidence based in their natural medicine reviews.

 

Where you're from? Though vitamin C might run short in local shops, it can still be bought by the tons online. Like 3.8 tons of 1kg bags at https://purebulk.com...=14294918037553 (only down half a ton from a month ago).
 

 

I'm in the UK. Here, the powder is very expensive for quite a small bottle - not even a tub - of it at any physical health shops that are still open. I haven't looked online for better deals yet.

 

About the buffers etc. You are probably right. It was just that Linus Pauling suggested mega-dosing with vitamin tablets, and so I assumed it was ok, if he said it.



#822 BlueCloud

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Posted Yesterday, 11:32 AM

Trump just said that they need to add zinc to the hydroxy. 

 

So if you need to buy some zinc you better buy now before a shortage.

 

 

And we all know how much of a great virologist and epidemiologist expert he is  .... Politicians should just shut their mouths and do what scientists advise them. Any politician who is trying to instrumentalize science to advance their politics is despicable ( and I'm not just talking about Trump here ). And yes , zinc is definitely key in this epidemic.

 

 

Didier Raoult saying he doubts many vaccines and that the sun is good? (not for Covid maybe but in general if my translation is ok) Is somebody better at french than me. 

 

https://www.francetv...lat_894481.html

 

 

 

It's this Twitter thread:

https://twitter.com/...628906472980482

 

discussing this paper amongst others

https://chemrxiv.org...phyrin/11938173

 

https://archive.is/ONUmi

 

 

So how about Pauling levels of vitamin C and intravenous vitamin C  :ph34r:

 

 

The article is commenting on a book written by Dr raoult sometimes ago. The thing is, Dr Raoult has been a very controversial figure for a while, and has probably done as much damage to the popularity of HCQ as he has helped its popularity. He enjoys going against most established theories, and plays a lot on his "renegade" persona. Many of his extremely abundant publications have been so sloppy he was banned for a year in 2006 from the journals of the American Society of Microbiology. The French government who funded his Institute in Marseille, took away his INSERM label ( a sort of quality label for government funded entities ) after once again some accusations of falsifications of various papers he cowrote ( many of them published in a Journal he co-owns). He once said "Nothing amuses me more than destroying established theories". While that could be amusing indeed, the problem with such attitude is that it is not motivated by reason but by an irrational contrarian attitude that just hurts the advancement of science.

He also called climate change a hoax, and even more ironically : the same person who is now touted as this epidemic hero ( mostly by himself) has published various papers and Youtube videos in January and early March calling the Covid19 a crazy hysteria about an insignificant virus that will never even spread to the rest of the world. he quickly changed his tune of course once he saw how wrong he was, then proceeded to release another sloppy study on HCQ.

 

In the article you link to , he is basically saying in his book that half of the vaccination recommended are completely useledd and not needed, that protecting yourself from the sun is not needed and bad except for young kids with fair skin, and that the more you expose yourself to the sun , the less dangerous the melanoma you might catch will be  ( the article comments that this actually goes against what most studies have found ). he also says that antibiotics should be prescribed to anyone that gets flu symptoms  for more than 3 days because the risk of surinfection is more dangerous than overuse of antibiotics ( there again, the article comments that this goes against most established medical practices )

 

When he released that famous first study on HCQ, he publicly blamed the government health authorities for not jumping immediately on recommending its use in a widespread manner, calling it it a "cabale" against him because he is not part of "the establishment". This immediately fueled the immense popularity of HCQ on social networks in France, with huge threads on Twitter, Facebook, young gamers forums etc with people commenting on the "conspiracy" of the Government not immediately using this molecule because they are sold to Big Pharma. This quickly became instrumentalized by political opposition parties , who then all  became suddenly virology experts and the biggest proponents  of HCQ in France. Raoult of course seemed to enjoy his new cult-like popularity status in France , and fueled it by various trolling Twitter messages and videos.

The government never rejected actually HCQ, but because of Raoult's controversial reputation, said that they need a bit more time to look into it before recommending its use. Ironically again , Raoult IS part of the 12 experts commitee appointed by the government to advise them on the pandemic, while acting as if he was some outsider rebel genius. The health authorities later on recommended HCQ as a treatment because of the urgency of the situation, while starting a much bigger ( 3000 patients) , better quality study on HCQ to get to the bottom of the situation.

 

Sadly, Raoult may very well have stumbled on something important with HCQ , but simultaneously slowed down and hurt its adoption because he made various scientists and governments skeptical about it with his sloppiness and irrational attitude.


Edited by BlueCloud, Yesterday, 11:59 AM.

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#823 pamojja

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Posted Yesterday, 11:58 AM

And we all know how much of a great virologist and epidemiologist expert he is  .... Politicians should just shut their mouths and do what scientists advise athem. Any politician who is trying to instrumentalize science to advance their politics is despicable ( and I'm not just talking about Trump here ). And yes , zinc is definitely key in this epidemic.

 

The opinion here of the Robert Koch institute (similar to the CDC in Germany) doesn't agree. Experts can only advise. Politcians are voted in for listening not only to virologists, but experts of all other fields too (ie. epidemiology) - and for making political decisions. Only because one disagrees with one particular president shouldn't be a reason for abolishing democracy. Nobody should shut their mouth (not to talk about the widespread censorship going on at present..) Everyone should vote.
 

I'm in the UK. Here, the powder is very expensive for quite a small bottle - not even a tub - of it at any physical health shops that are still open. I haven't looked online for better deals yet.

 

About the buffers etc. You are probably right. It was just that Linus Pauling suggested mega-dosing with vitamin tablets, and so I assumed it was ok, if he said it.

 

A viral pneumonia in the experience of Carthart may need up to 200 g of ascorbic acid a day. Which is substancially more than the mega-doses talked about for maintaining general health by Pauling, ie. 6-18 g per day. Also the fillers at the time of Pauling might have been more harmless.

 

This is a US source: https://purebulk.com...=14294918037553 (not adviseable if from Germany, since could get confiscated by customs)

 

And here one in the EU, which ships internationally: https://shop-breinba...0/Products/1011
 


Edited by pamojja, Yesterday, 12:00 PM.

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#824 BlueCloud

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Posted Yesterday, 12:07 PM

The opinion here of the Robert Koch institute (similar to the CDC in Germany) doesn't agree. Experts can only advise. Politcians are voted in for listening not only to virologists, but experts of all other fields too (ie. epidemiology) - and for making political decisions. Only because one disagrees with one particular president shouldn't be a reason for abolishing democracy. Nobody should shut their mouth (not to talk about the widespread censorship going on at present..) Everyone should vote.
 

 

I was exagerating of course, we know politicians won't shut it, but instrumentalzing science politically will always hurt it, not advance it. The biggest pushers for HCQ in France were the extreme-right wing parties, because this was a golden opportunity to hit on the government, not because of their suddenly acquired microbiology knowledge. The exact same political parties that were criticizing the same government just a month ago for taking the the coronavirus seriously, were  against the confinement, and calling it hysteria from the government put in place for the only sake of extending control over the population ( while critisizing the same government now for not starting the confinement earlier ). Many politicians work by contrarian attitudes ( if A says X is good, then we must say that X is bad ). This pollutes the way serious research and scientific knowledge spreads among the population. This is why I say that the word of scientists should be put over the word of politicians.


Edited by BlueCloud, Yesterday, 12:15 PM.

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#825 Hebbeh

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Posted Yesterday, 01:30 PM

And where this theory comes from? From what I read high hemoglobin for example is a higher risk to develop a severe Covid

 

Did you not read Kalliste links that the exchange was discussing regarding "COVID-19 is causing prolonged & progressive hypoxia (starving your body of oxygen) by binding to the heme groups in hemoglobin in your red blood cells. Patients are progressively desaturating (losing o2 in their blood), & as a result, it’s leading to organ failures"? And no, I don't buy into the theory.

 

Kalliste, on 08 Apr 2020 - 10:17 PM, said:snapback.png

It's this Twitter thread:

https://twitter.com/...628906472980482

 

discussing this paper amongst others

https://chemrxiv.org...phyrin/11938173

 

https://archive.is/ONUmi

 



#826 Jesus is King

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Posted Yesterday, 01:52 PM

I have beta thalassemia minor, so I create less hemoglobin. My doctor (new at the time) once thought I was anaemic after blood test results, before I informed him I had B thalassemia minor (which I’m not allowed to take iron for), so I’m probably mildly anaemic all of the time. So I wonder how corona is effecting me differently if any.


Edited by Jesus is King, Yesterday, 01:55 PM.


#827 sciack

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Posted Yesterday, 02:16 PM

I have beta thalassemia minor, so I create less hemoglobin. My doctor (new at the time) once thought I was anaemic after blood test results, before I informed him I had B thalassemia minor (which I’m not allowed to take iron for), so I’m probably mildly anaemic all of the time. So I wonder how corona is effecting me differently if any.

yeah me too on the same boat... we have lower haemoglobin but more red blood cells and higher ferritin.... I think it is not ideal but who knows...



#828 Florin

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Posted Yesterday, 07:16 PM

Breathing technique for removing COVID-19 lung mucus:

  • Take a deep breath in.
  • At the end of it, hold your breath for five seconds, then release.
  • Do this five times — five breaths total.
  • Next, take a sixth deep breath in, then at the end of it cough strongly — covering your mouth when you do so.
  • The six breaths plus cough at the end represent once cycle. Repeat this cycle twice.
  • Lie on your stomach on a bed, taking slightly deeper breaths than normal for the next 10 minutes.

https://www.today.co...-better-t177870

 


Edited by Florin, Yesterday, 07:17 PM.


#829 xEva

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Posted Yesterday, 08:18 PM

I think the porphyrin/heme theory was discarded too quickly:

 

Shawn Evans, attending emergency physician and director of resuscitation at Scripps Memorial Hospital La Jolla, said ... the vast majority of young people who contract the disease fare well and recover. But for a minority, it appears to cause a unique change in the blood’s oxygen-carrying hemoglobin cells.

“Young people who are otherwise fit can tolerate this longer, but at the expense of their heart and their pulmonary functions,” said Evans, who likened some of the symptoms in younger people to prolonged carbon monoxide exposure.

 

https://www.washingt...omments-wrapper

 

Here  Dr. Seheult discusses the paper that claims that covid-19 attacks 1-beta chain if hemoglobin and captured the prophyrin to inhibit heme metabolism, at 20:21

 

One thing he does not address is the bilateral uniformity of the ground-glass opacities seen with this virus, which has been commented on by numerous drs (i.e. how unusual it is). I think this frequently shared observation supports the notion that inflammation and the acute respiratory distress syndrome that follows may be the consequence of  "inability to exchange carbon dioxide and oxygen frequently" -- rather than the other way around (i.e. hypoxia being the consequence of inflammation and ARDS).

 

Many people complain of weakness and headaches, which are the early symptoms of hypoxia.

 


Edited by xEva, Yesterday, 08:22 PM.


#830 BlueCloud

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Posted Yesterday, 08:26 PM

Article behind a paywall , but basically says that this aternoon, Dr Raoult gave the president of France the premiere of the results of a new study that  he  conducted on 1061 patients, with a complete remission in 10 days, claiming a 91% rate of success.

 

 


Edited by BlueCloud, Yesterday, 08:27 PM.


#831 BlueCloud

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Posted Yesterday, 09:59 PM

Ok, Raoult has put a preliminary preprint of the study mentionned in my previous post on his website now https://www.mediterr...pre-prints-ihu/

 

it’s the last one : covid ihu-6


Edited by BlueCloud, Yesterday, 10:04 PM.

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#832 xEva

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Posted Yesterday, 10:29 PM

Logically, you would want all the receptors blocked all the time. So I would take the maximum dose that I could safely tolerate, broken as evenly as possible throughout the day (probably delivered IV at a measured rate). I have no insights as to which particular drug would be ideal.

 

I suspect that studies which find them to be harmful involve patients on the drugs who, upon admission, quit taking them (because they usually need to be consumed orally, which isn't viable on a ventilator, or because they forgot them in the rush to the hospital), resulting in an explosion in viral load above and beyond their previous growth rate. And all else being equal, they're a proxy for cardiovascular age, so there's some degree of sample bias at work.

 

in the end data wins:

 

both poor clinical and virological outcomes were associated to the use of selective beta-blocking agents and angiotensin II receptor blockers (P<0.05)

 

https://www.mediterr...042020_vD1v.pdf
 

So far only the abstract is available. Would be interesting to see the details when the full text is published.



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#833 lancebr

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Posted Today, 02:00 AM

in the end data wins:

 

both poor clinical and virological outcomes were associated to the use of selective beta-blocking agents and angiotensin II receptor blockers (P<0.05)

 

https://www.mediterr...042020_vD1v.pdf
 

So far only the abstract is available. Would be interesting to see the details when the full text is published.

 

So is the mortality rate of 0.5% in elderly a good thing or bad thing based upon this study?

 

 







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