153 replies to this topic

[Grail]

I'm with Mind on this.

[Live Forever]

I'm with Mind on this.

I'm with Mind on most things. He is a pretty smart individual, in my experience.

[Mind]

Thanks for the support guys.

Another comment on this. It seems the "soft" memespace is already crowded with orgs, websites, and businesses. Many good "soft" names are already taken. Life Extension Foundation. Maximum Life Foundation. SENS. International Academy of Anti-Aging Medicine. The list goes on and on. We could squeeze in between somewhere with a new focus/definition/terminiology, but I don't see great benefits. In cyberspace Imminst OWNS immortality. We are dominant, and this is a good thing. Imminst's focus is rational and scientific, perhaps marking a historical turning point for the word "immortality". It is currently considered fringe or kooky, but our efforts could change that in coming years.

After all, the people most critical of discussions of immortality have rather irrational belief systems (ie. mainstream religious folk). The only reason they hold sway is because of large numbers. Nothing else. In today's rapidly changing world the philosophy of change (of which Imminst is part of) should appeal to larger numbers of people.

dukenukem: I prefer not to be seen as a certified wacko.

I don't mention the word immortality around my family or on TV, but I do mention it among my friends and co-workers. They give me wierd looks sometimes, but I know they are thinking about it in the back of their minds.

Also, a misconception I find when talking to other people about the institute is that they think we are claiming to BE immortal. Once I explain the mission is to just live as long as possible in the best health possible, then they are much more receptive.

[jaydfox]

In cyberspace Imminst OWNS immortality.

Don't let Don catch you using caps, he already busted my chops over it.

[jaydfox]

We are dominant, and this is a good thing. Imminst's focus is rational and scientific, perhaps marking a historical turning point for the word "immortality". It is currently considered fringe or kooky, but our efforts could change that in coming years.

After all, the people most critical of discussions of immortality have rather irrational belief systems (ie. mainstream religious folk). The only reason they hold sway is because of large numbers. Nothing else. In today's rapidly changing world the philosophy of change (of which Imminst is part of) should appeal to larger numbers of people.

Don't forget that we're just picking up steam. We'll have the forum upgraded in the next couple months, and then we'll have blogs. Once I've done that, and cleaned up some other things here and there, I can take a break from the technical side of things, and I plan to get back into strategizing (stratergizing) and all that stuff, as far as how we can further grow and establish the meme of immortality (distinctly from the religious wacko connotation).

A year or two ago, ImmInst seemed to have a good broad focus, covering BCI, philosophy, politics, nanotech, singularity, cryonics, etc., in addition to life extension/curing aging. It's not so much that those other areas lost focus, so much as there's just been a lot of increased emphasis on the aging side. It's been my goal for the past year to help grow the life extension meme in whatever small way I could, and then turn my focus to cryonics, much the way Bruce has turned his focus to the Singularity. We each can have our projects, and they need not all focus on aging...

ImmInst needs to be a launching point for all these divers means of effecting immortality at some future point. We're a team; my aim isn't to detract from our focus on life extension, but to help others (like myself) broaden out from that focus. That focus is merely our current short term focus ("short" being rather long when compared to current lifespans).

[stephen]

In fact, I'm never stupid enough to use the world "immortality" about anything I do.  I prefer not to be seen as a certified wacko.

That's the real crux of the issue, isn't it? People associate the word "immortal" with B-movie villains. In any type of serious discussion, its very mention will instantly discredit anything else you have to say! I have a hard time recommending this forum and group to others... simply because of that name. Obviously, this isn't a fair position. But perception is reality in the marketplace of ideas.

On the other hand, I don't like "extensionism" at all... like someone else said, too close to "existentialism" and not defining enough. "Lifespan Research" is my current favorite from the possibilities listed above. That's all about the meme, though. As far as the organization's name is concerned...

Still, a new name does not address a more fundamental point:  Why should anyone outside this group care about this group?  What meaningful purpose does it fulfill?  Until this question is properly answered, good name or not, this group is just a tiny tick on the Internet's ass.

I think this group has potential -- a published book, a national conference, a short film. The question to ask: Will this group evolve into a public-facing entity? Or will it be a support group behind the scenes?

If it's the later, primarily providing funding and resources for community projects... the name is fine (like mind said, it gives a unique position in the overall community). It's descriptive and to the point. On the other hand, if we want to be a group that deals with the public, then we have to be prepared to have our organization's name splashed across CNN along with Director X's interview.

Will people be more or less open to ideas after seeing the word "Immortality"? If it creates a barrier to our message for even 51% of the people out there... then it might be a good marketing idea to think about alternatives.

[AdamDavis]

I voted for Other. How about:

Eternalism
Aeonism/Aeonics
Imperishablism
Infinism
Permanism

[DJS]

I still think Laz's has great promise.

Elongationalism
For infinite duration

Wonder how that would affect our demographic... [lol]

[DJS]

Perpetual development of Being -- that's my personal mission.

But then again I am not a Utopian, which probably makes me a distinct minority on these boards.

[DJS]

Idealism vs Pragmatism

[DJS]

If there is to be an ideal it should be in process.

[DukeNukem]

On the other hand, I don't like "extensionism" at all

I don't like it either, even though I think I was the first to use the word here (extensionist), in the Increasing Forum Traffic thread. The problem with these longer, unwieldy monikers is that they rarely enter the vernacular. People naturally gravitate toward one or two syllable words. For example, when it's all said and done there'll likely be a short word we all use, no more than two syllables. When automobiles first appeared, they were called horseless carriages. But now we call them cars (shortened from the word "carriage"). Shorter monikers are almost always adopted over longer choices, even if people need to invent new words. People invented the word "fridge" rather than using "refrigerator," and "phone" rather than "telephone," and "PC" took root over "personal computer." The public shortened Federal Express to Fedex despite the company's resistance, until they finally embraced the unstoppable tide.

Words/phrases like "life extensionist," "immortalist," and "anti-aging practitioner," etc. will never catch on. If nanotechnology becomes a key player in life extension, then the word we all end up using 30-40 years from now may come from that industry. Or, if Aubrey is successful, a word like "sensist" might might catch on. Short, unique, and relates to the science behind the breakthrough.

Edited by dukenukem, 06 June 2006 - 05:10 PM.

[maestro949]

That's the real crux of the issue, isn't it? People associate the word "immortal" with B-movie villains. In any type of serious discussion, its very mention will instantly discredit anything else you have to say! I have a hard time recommending this forum and group to others... simply because of that name. Obviously, this isn't a fair position. But perception is reality in the marketplace of ideas.

Well said stephen. I personally will not recommend the site nor use the word "immortality" with anybody. It instantly triggers an emotional and even antagonistic response from the rationally-challenged majority of the population. Even worse, skeptics, who many of us that believe in a scientific approach to life extension agree with, immediately dismiss any discussion that has the premise of an immortal lifespan. The word Immortality really should be reserved for 1. theological debate, 3. Tolkien's Elves and 4. People who know how to count.

[ag24]

Hi all - I've been asked to comment here and I have a lot to say but I'm travelling all day - I'll post something detailed tomorrow. The main thing that seems not to have been mentioned in this thread so far is that the word "immortalist" is used to describe us whether we like ot or not, and very probably always will be. Hence we should look at past cases of that, not least the term "cloning" -- terms that have been used despite their imperfections and especially by their critics. The key, I feel, is to rise above the terminology - to say loud and clear that it's inappropriate but also to say that we don't care what the world likes to call us, we want to get stuff done. More tomorrow.

[AdamDavis]

The main thing that seems not to have been mentioned in this thread so far is that the word "immortalist" is used to describe us whether we like ot or not...

Thanks, Aubrey. I completely agree with that. I find there to be absolutely nothing wrong with the term "Immortalist." I am comfortable with addressing myself as one to others and being addressed as one by others. So what if "Immortal" has theological roots? Why shouldn't those who favour that angle of Life Extension, or perhaps even to merge their religious beliefs with Transhumanism as some do, be "filtered out" from here, so to speak? ImmInst shouldn't be an Ivory Tower...a sanctuary for Academic Elitists...

[kraemahz]

It appears that two camps are emerging: those that side with Dukenukem's sobering call to action and those who prefer to see things remain as they are..

It appears there are two methods of phrasing things: statements that are false dichotomies and good statements.

Prometheus, no one who is choosing to stay with 'immortalism' is doing it because it's the status quo. ImmInst has name recognition already built up, as Mind said we 'own' immorality on the net.

You're worried about respectability, but respect isn't gained from a name; we aren't trying to win a battle of knee-jerk reactions here. We have to win people through ideas, no matter what name we're under. If we do a good job of that, we'll change the implications of any heading we're using.

There are much more interesting fights to be had than over this one.

Edit: Aubrey pretty much beat me to the punch, guess I started writing about when he posted.

[AdamDavis]

There is not much reason to think any other term would gain much more memetic advantage over "Immortalism." An individual person is free to call it by another name if they wish.

Edited by biopunk, 06 June 2006 - 05:47 PM.

[kraemahz]

What about awesomo-supra-life-lovingism?

[AdamDavis]

What about awesomo-supra-life-lovingism?

If that peels your banana, Teague, so be it [tung]

[eternaltraveler]

I’m fairly divided on this issue. I can certainly see where there would be benefits from a name change to something more PR friendly. Of the suggestions I liked Harold’s the most “International Society for Lifespan Research”.

As others have brought up there are a plethora of other organizations with more PR friendly names out there already, and there is something to be said for the in your face quality of “Immortality Institute”. When I tell people the name of the group of which I am a part they give me a weird look, and opens up the opportunity to explain exactly what it is all about. If it was something more watered down I wouldn’t get that opportunity.

It may be worth it to loose such small opportunities to gain larger ones. The question we will have to ask ourselves is will changing the institute’s name assist in achieving our mission? If the answer is yes then it is our duty to change our name. (we should never even think of changing our mission).

Words/phrases like "life extensionist," "immortalist," and "anti-aging practitioner," etc. will never catch on. If nanotechnology becomes a key player in life extension, then the word we all end up using 30-40 years from now may come from that industry. Or, if Aubrey is successful, a word like "sensist" might might catch on. Short, unique, and relates to the science behind the breakthrough.

In another thread a while back I believe Daniel coined the term "Epik" as an alternative to “immortalist” or “transhumanist” (the long form was epichron I believe). I liked that.

[rhakshasa]

Immortality, because in my opinion it is more of a logical conclusion. You can still get death by other mean even if we follow immortality, why just delay death and not delay it forever.

[AdamDavis]

...the long form was epichron I believe...

What does Epichron mean? I cannot find anything substantial on that word. I would not want to call myself an Epik, because others might be confused into thinking that I am a long, narrative poem or something.

[doug123]

Mainstreaming ideas requires an anchor, at least. An idea does not have to be mainstreamable for it to catch on. The Grateful Dead had a complex subculture follow them around -- however, Deadheads were largely a fringe group for 30 years (and some still follow the remnants of the Dead without Garcia). What kind of name is Grateful Dead?

Can you see T-shirts that say Immortality Institute or a monthly magazine at your local Whole Foods Market called "Immortality Institute Magazine?" How about a dietary supplement formula called the "Immortality Mix" (instead of "Life Extension" mix)? I might have trouble selling such a formula.

Achieving maximum effect from limited resources -- in limited time -- is the real issue here. The goal is to stop involuntary death -- as soon as possible, right? Will the name "Immortality" delay the possibility of achieving this urgent goal? We have not achieved Immortality (yet), so more scientific folk might get the idea that we here are wildly delusional.

[Brainbox]

Yep, an anchor that's not to complex and less self-indulging.

more-life is already taken, but something like that.....

we're all in this immortality quicksand, get out of there please.

life-science-society or science-of-life? Grateful Life?

Edit: at least life-science-society sounds ok....

Edited by brainbox, 06 June 2006 - 08:54 PM.

[Live Forever]

I am with Mind on the "owning" immortality on the web. If someone does a search for "immortality" we are the first result. I would hate to give that up to move into a crowded arena with lots of names, and not be the first result anymore for any one term.

[Brainbox]

It's just not the best communicative PR term, like dukenukem said.
That's a lot more important imo.
Ownership can be build up and bought again.

[FunkOdyssey]

We can always make up a brand new word, and own that right off the bat.

[Live Forever]

Someone could always start a "sister" site with the more watered down terminology, and build it up, since that would be what would have to be done anyway, instead of completely starting over with this one, that way there would be the benefits of each.

[jaydfox]

Someone could always start a "sister" site with the more watered down terminology, and build it up, since that would be what would have to be done anyway, instead of completely starting over with this one, that way there would be the benefits of each.