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coronavirus alternative views & theories

coronavirus covid-19

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#631 Daniel Cooper

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Posted 05 January 2021 - 02:20 PM



 

 

Seasonality might be a major factor where mask wearing is not common (like in Sweden).

 

My opinion about seasonality might change if you can show a better correlation between environmental factors such as temperature and humidity and the number of cases and/or deaths. Maybe you can start with States that had the Summer Peak. For instance, what was their temp/humidity levels compared to States which lacked a Summer peak?

 

Well, if you don't like Sweden, how about France, Belgium, Italy, and the UK?  They all look pretty much the same.

 

france-daily-deaths-010521.jpg

 

belgium-daily-deaths-010521.jpg

 

italy-daily-deaths-010521.jpg

 

uk-daily-deaths-010521.jpg



#632 Florin

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Posted 05 January 2021 - 08:11 PM

Well, if you don't like Sweden, how about France, Belgium, Italy, and the UK?  They all look pretty much the same.

 

This can be blamed on the UK variant which emerged in September.

 

It might also be blamed on seasonality, but in the context of (indoor, maskless, poorly-ventilated) private gatherings. During the Summer, people could meet outdoors, but now, it's colder and they're forced indoors. They're used to wearing masks and social distance in public but not so much at private gatherings.


Edited by Florin, 05 January 2021 - 08:14 PM.

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#633 Daniel Cooper

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Posted 05 January 2021 - 09:03 PM

This can be blamed on the UK variant which emerged in September.

 

It might also be blamed on seasonality, but in the context of (indoor, maskless, poorly-ventilated) private gatherings. During the Summer, people could meet outdoors, but now, it's colder and they're forced indoors. They're used to wearing masks and social distance in public but not so much at private gatherings.

 

Do we have any evidence that the UK strain is significant in France, Italy, and Belgium as of yet?

 

And did maskless indoor private gathers suddenly take a spike in mid September (ish)?

 

Look, I'm certain that as we got into winter proper people being indoors more has increased the transmission rate. It's only logical. But I question whether that was an effect earlier in the September/October time frame. In fact, in my area I see more people outside in late September/early October because it's no longer oppressively hot and the weather is more conducive to being outside.

 

What I see is a tendency from the pro-mask crowd to explain away every suggestion that masks might not work as well as they have suggested. It's the new strain, poorly ventilated areas, people aren't wearing them at home in family gatherings, their masks aren't that good, the list goes on and on.  Everything but to consider that mask might not work as well as they'd hoped.  I think that betrays an emotional attachment to a favored theory.

 

Look at the totality of the evidence. Mask mandates generally started to come into play in late March through late April. And dutifully we watched as infection rates decreased and we said "Aha! The masks are working!". But, as we slipped from summer into early fall and infection rates started to rise again, and more people were wearing masks than earlier in the year (because even as those initial mandates were imposed it was still very difficult to get masks unless you were making your own) the same people have been reluctant to question to what extent these masks have been helpful.  I think it is very difficult to contend that masks caused the decreases in the spring in light of what happened in the fall. And look at those graphs of death rates between countries like Sweden which is has little in the way of mandated social distancing and masking and other Western European countries that do - you don't see a great deal of difference.

 

Masks probably help to some extent, but I don't think they are a panacea.


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#634 Florin

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Posted 05 January 2021 - 11:52 PM

Do we have any evidence that the UK strain is significant in France, Italy, and Belgium as of yet?


I'm not sure about how many cases can be linked to it outside of the UK, but supposedly, it was the primary driver of cases in the UK, and it's all over Europe now. So, it seems plausible that it was or is an important driver of cases in Europe and in other areas as well.

https://www.bbc.com/...europe-55449528
 

And did maskless indoor private gathers suddenly take a spike in mid September (ish)?

Look, I'm certain that as we got into winter proper people being indoors more has increased the transmission rate. It's only logical. But I question whether that was an effect earlier in the September/October time frame. In fact, in my area I see more people outside in late September/early October because it's no longer oppressively hot and the weather is more conducive to being outside.


Maybe indoor humidity changed enough to lead to a condition more conducive to the spread of the virus among the maskless, even if the total number of private gatherings was somewhat less.
 
People just have to bit the bullet and wear masks around other households or avoid them altogether until this pandemic is over. This is logic 101, not rocket science.
 

What I see is a tendency from the pro-mask crowd to explain away every suggestion that masks might not work as well as they have suggested. It's the new strain, poorly ventilated areas, people aren't wearing them at home in family gatherings, their masks aren't that good, the list goes on and on.  Everything but to consider that mask might not work as well as they'd hoped.  I think that betrays an emotional attachment to a favored theory.

Look at the totality of the evidence. Mask mandates generally started to come into play in late March through late April. And dutifully we watched as infection rates decreased and we said "Aha! The masks are working!". But, as we slipped from summer into early fall and infection rates started to rise again, and more people were wearing masks than earlier in the year (because even as those initial mandates were imposed it was still very difficult to get masks unless you were making your own) the same people have been reluctant to question to what extent these masks have been helpful.  I think it is very difficult to contend that masks caused the decreases in the spring in light of what happened in the fall. And look at those graphs of death rates between countries like Sweden which is has little in the way of mandated social distancing and masking and other Western European countries that do - you don't see a great deal of difference.
 
Masks probably help to some extent, but I don't think they are a panacea.

 
Since you still seem think that there's something to the seasonality idea, why don't you present some evidence that's a little more convincing? It shouldn't be that hard to find some charts with temp and humidity data.
 
You say Sweden, I say Norway and Finland (where masks are recommended). You're still going to get cases and deaths with masks but a lot less than what otherwise would be the case.

coronavirus-data-explorer.png
 
For now, the fact remains that there's more evidence that masks (if they're actually worn) are a much more important factor than seasonality. Maybe they don't work that well with more contagious variants, and if that's the case everyone will just have to wear respirators or endure lockdowns.
 
A more interesting and important discussion to have is about respirators. Why hasn't any expert recommended wearing respirators instead of cloth masks? Has respirator manufacturing capacity expanded enough in the many months since the start of the pandemic? If not, why not?


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#635 smithx

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Posted 10 January 2021 - 01:22 AM

We might also wish to consider adding the flu-shot factor into the mix.  

 

Influenza vaccine associated with predisposition to (non-COVID) coronavirus infections.  

 

https://www.lewrockw...-of-coronavirus.

 

New Study: The Flu Vaccine Is “Significantly Associated” With An Increased Risk of Coronavirus

 

"in this study, those who had been vaccinated with the flu vaccine had a 36 percent higher risk  of contracting it"

 

Don't know when the general public tend to get their jab, but at the hospital I worked at, employees were due to get their flu jab before November 1st, or wear a mask full time.  

 

Major push to get flu shot compliance this year, with the "TWINDEMIC" danger splashed across the news.  

 

OK, now that we've all got our flu shots, and we've got the social distancing, masks & hand washing down, what's going on with CORONA?  

 

Well, after a lovely period of rather benign numbers, it's now UP-UP and AWAY!  To the moon Alice!  

 

Coincidence?  

 

I think he's miscalculated a bit.

 

In the study (Table 5) We have:

 

Vaccinated - 2050 individuals and 69 tested positive for a coronavirus

Unvaccinated - 1299 individuals and 34 tested positive for a coronavirus

 

69/2050*100 = 3.37 % of vaccinated individuals tested positive for coronavirus

34/1299*100 = 2.62% of vaccinated individuals tested positive for coronavirus

 

3..37/2.62*100-100 = 28.6% increased odds of testing positive for a coronavirus in vaccinated people

 

Still interesting and deserving of further study with statistics on the current coronavirus.

 

 


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#636 Mind

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Posted 23 January 2021 - 03:11 PM

Dr. Birx violates COVID rules and restrictions: https://apnews.com/a...b70746bdc9bc61?

 

High ranking health officials, high ranking politicians, and wealthy elites continue to flout any and all COVID, rules, regulations, and guidance. What do they know that they are not telling everyone else? It is obvious they do NOT think it is a deadly, contagious, or worrisome disease - based upon their actions.

 

Meanwhile a guy in Ireland gets 2 months in prison for not wearing a mask, even though he had a medical exemption, and was at a funeral.

 

https://newsla.local...ncoln-memorial/

 

Yet another group of people who:

 

1. Are not afraid of the coronavirus...based upon their actions, no masks, no social distancing.

 

2. Don't mind violating their own laws/mandates/rules.

 


Edited by Mind, 23 January 2021 - 03:17 PM.

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#637 Mind

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Posted 10 March 2021 - 03:43 PM

I have yet to hear a good explanation as to why governors of several states in the U.S. forced nursing homes to take in COVID positive patients. They did this even though it was well-known that COVID affected the elderly more than anyone else. They did this even though Federal guidelines were just the opposite. In the case of New York - they had a large field hospital and a medical ship with thousands of beds available, but did not use them. Why?

 

Gavin Newsome (California)

Phil Murhpy (New Jersey)

Andrew Cuomo (New York)

Gretchen Whitmer (Michigan)

Tom Wolf (Pennsylvania)

 

These governors all ORDERED COVID positive patients into nursing homes. Just think of how much easier it would have been to contain the pandemic if it was not for these actions.

 

There are some people attempting investigations. Maybe we will get some answers eventually.


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#638 Daniel Cooper

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Posted 11 March 2021 - 10:31 PM

I think it was for ideological reasons having to do with "people shouldn't be denied access to healthcare", i.e. you shouldn't discriminate against someone by denying them access to a nursing home merely because they have a highly contagious disease to which the elderly are particularly venerable.  It's the sort of position that feels good to people that aren't prone to anything beyond superficial thinking, which is to say quite a flew politicians.

 

It's a case of ideology triumphing over reason.

 

 

 

 


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#639 Hebbeh

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Posted 12 March 2021 - 12:03 AM

From what I recall, this occurred early on when the emergency rooms were becoming overwhelmed and the field hospitals were not yet available.  It was for these reasons that the field hospitals were later established.

 

And covid positive patients weren't being "newly sent" to the retirement homes but were being prematurely returned to were they came from.  The retirement homes were where they caught covid in the first place so I believe they made an obviously poor and tragic choice in the fear of overflowing ER's by rationalizing that the retirement homes were already contaminated anyway just as were the ER's so why not send them back to reduce the burden on the overflowing ER's.  But obviously this made a bad situation much worse and caused additional deaths.  I believe in hindsight, they realized what a bad decision this was but it was too little too late by then and the damage was done.

 

Most of this occurred in the early days by allowing covid to contaminate retirement homes via employees in the first place but I believe they didn't realize the extent of what all they were dealing with until it was too late and bad decisions were made under stress.

 

But why waste a good post with the opportunity for political spin?

 

BTW, my own mother died of covid in a retirement home in the solid red state of SD.  As did the grandmother of the SD governor.  That was in the news.  Why did you not mention that?



#640 Daniel Cooper

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Posted 12 March 2021 - 12:13 AM

From what I recall, this occurred early on when the emergency rooms were becoming overwhelmed and the field hospitals were not yet available.  It was for these reasons that the field hospitals were later established.

 

 

I'm going to say that you recall incorrectly, at least in NY. The federal government docked military hospital ships offshore and stood up facilities fairly quickly that were never fully utilized.

 

And even had they not done that, almost any other expedient facility other than putting covid-19 positive patients in nursing homes would have been far preferable to allowing the virus access into concentrated centers of uniquely vulnerable patients.

 

At one time late summer/early fall of last year, NY was reporting that something like 43% of their covid deaths were in nursing homes. And that was with fudging them numbers by not counting patients that had caught covid in a nursing home but subsequently had died in a hospital. 

 

There really are no excuses for this remarkably bad policy. Let me suggest that we not make any.


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#641 Hebbeh

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Posted 12 March 2021 - 12:24 AM

I'm going to say that you recall incorrectly, at least in NY. The federal government docked military hospital ships offshore and stood up facilities fairly quickly that were never fully utilized.

 

You might want to double check the time line on that.

 

And even had they not done that, almost any other expedient facility other than putting covid-19 positive patients in nursing homes would have been far preferable to allowing the virus access into concentrated centers of uniquely vulnerable patients.

 

 

I believe we are all in agreement with that at this point but do try to realize that covid had already infiltrated the retirement homes early on and that was what precipitated this situation.  That was where the infected residents were initially coming from before any were returned.  Covid was already spreading through retirement homes because they failed on day one to prevent exposed employees from coming to work.


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#642 Daniel Cooper

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Posted 12 March 2021 - 01:00 AM

You might want to double check the time line on that.

 

 

I believe we are all in agreement with that at this point but do try to realize that covid had already infiltrated the retirement homes early on and that was what precipitated this situation.  That was where the infected residents were initially coming from before any were returned.  Covid was already spreading through retirement homes because they failed on day one to prevent exposed employees from coming to work.

 

There is simply no universe in which sending covid positive patients into a nursing home was a good idea.

 

I confess I have difficulty understanding the motivation for denying that.


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#643 Hebbeh

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Posted 12 March 2021 - 01:04 AM

There is simply no universe in which sending covid positive patients into a nursing home was a good idea.

 

I confess I have difficulty understanding the motivation for denying that.

 

Who's denying that???

 

Quite the opposite to what I stated.  Seems you're bent on sticking to political spin propaganda at all costs.


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#644 Daniel Cooper

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Posted 12 March 2021 - 01:38 AM

Who's denying that???

 

Quite the opposite to what I stated.  Seems you're bent on sticking to political spin propaganda at all costs.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't it your point that it didn't matter that these governors forced nursing homes to take covid positive patients because the virus was in the homes already?

 

I agree that there is some sticking to political propaganda occurring here.

 

Personally, I think most politicians are fools regardless of party affiliation.


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#645 Hebbeh

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Posted 12 March 2021 - 02:05 AM

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't it your point that it didn't matter that these governors forced nursing homes to take covid positive patients because the virus was in the homes already?

 

I agree that there is some sticking to political propaganda occurring here.

 

Personally, I think most politicians are fools regardless of party affiliation.

 

No, I did not.  But nice try.

 

I laid out the time line of what actually occurred.  At no point in my post did I say it didn't matter.  I believe they may have rationalized that at the time but later regretted it.

 

I explicitly stated that it was a bad decision and made a bad situation worse.

 

my own mother died of covid in a retirement home

 

 

What would make you think this didn't matter to me???  As with so many others, I didn't even get to say goodbye.

 

I believe they made an obviously poor and tragic choice

 

 

obviously this made a bad situation much worse and caused additional deaths

 

 

I believe we are all in agreement with that at this point

 

 

they failed on day one

 



#646 Daniel Cooper

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Posted 12 March 2021 - 02:10 AM

Because I hear you say things like this:

 

"I believe we are all in agreement with that at this point but do try to realize that covid had already infiltrated the retirement homes early on and that was what precipitated this situation."

 

That's you agreeing, and then following up that agreement with a rationalization for why it didn't matter.  That's not the politician's rationalization, that's yours.

 

 


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#647 Hebbeh

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Posted 12 March 2021 - 02:21 AM

Because I hear you say things like this:

 

"I believe we are all in agreement with that at this point but do try to realize that covid had already infiltrated the retirement homes early on and that was what precipitated this situation."

 

That's you agreeing, and then following up that agreement with a rationalization for why it didn't matter.  That's not the politician's rationalization, that's yours.

 

 

You're deliberately twisting my words and made this personal to fit your political scenario.

 

And the truth of what happened in the retirement homes all over the country is when authorities failed on day one by allowing exposed employees to work and failed to keep residents isolated as I have stated.

 

I didn't excuse anybody for my mother or any mothers death.

 

I doubt I'll ever get over my anger.

 

What did you lose?


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#648 Daniel Cooper

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Posted 12 March 2021 - 02:29 AM

You're deliberately twisting my words and made this personal to fit your political scenario.

 

And the truth of what happened in the retirement homes all over the country is when authorities failed on day one by allowing exposed employees to work and failed to keep residents isolated as I have stated.

 

I didn't excuse anybody for my mother or any mothers death.

 

I doubt I'll ever get over my anger.

 

What did you lose?

 

I'm sorry that you lost your mother. But a lot of us have lost loved ones. I have.

 

But that has no place in a discussion about this public policy. We can not use the deaths of our loved ones as a deflection to those that disagree with us.



#649 Hebbeh

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Posted 12 March 2021 - 02:44 AM

I'm sorry that you lost your mother. But a lot of us have lost loved ones. I have.

 

But that has no place in a discussion about this public policy. We can not use the deaths of our loved ones as a deflection to those that disagree with us.

 

My sincere condolences to you and your family.

 

But I fail in principal to see where we have disagreed that authorities made tragic decisions all the way around that resulted in additional needless deaths.  Which is ironic coming from you, mr don't shut anything down and how dare you make me wear a mask.

 

The issue appears that you've decided to turn this personal by deliberately twisting my words and deliberately misconstruing  the points I made.  And then weasel out of taking responsibility for your actions simply in a lame attempt to make this into a political agenda.


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#650 Danail Bulgaria

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Posted 12 March 2021 - 06:55 PM

Recently I formed in my mind an alternative view or cnspirative theory, whatever you name it.

I heared, that the aim of the COVID19 vaccines actually is not to stop vaccinated from getting the disease, but to reduce their chances of dying. That sounds very nice at first glance, but If this is so, then many of the vaccinated are being transformed into unconscious carriers of the disease, infecting everyone arround, just like there are people not knowing that are carriers of hepatitis B and C viruses. In this case we may come to a situation in which we either have to be vaccinated, or infected.

What do you think about that view?

 


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#651 geo12the

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Posted 12 March 2021 - 11:53 PM

Recently I formed in my mind an alternative view or cnspirative theory, whatever you name it.

I heared, that the aim of the COVID19 vaccines actually is not to stop vaccinated from getting the disease, but to reduce their chances of dying. That sounds very nice at first glance, but If this is so, then many of the vaccinated are being transformed into unconscious carriers of the disease, infecting everyone arround, just like there are people not knowing that are carriers of hepatitis B and C viruses. In this case we may come to a situation in which we either have to be vaccinated, or infected.

What do you think about that view?

 

If vaccinated people are infected,  it's highly likely the vaccination will greatly reduce viral loads and shedding  and make them less infectious, but we will see.


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#652 aribadabar

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Posted 13 March 2021 - 01:53 AM

Recently I formed in my mind an alternative view or cnspirative theory, whatever you name it.

I heared, that the aim of the COVID19 vaccines actually is not to stop vaccinated from getting the disease, but to reduce their chances of dying. That sounds very nice at first glance, but If this is so, then many of the vaccinated are being transformed into unconscious carriers of the disease, infecting everyone arround, just like there are people not knowing that are carriers of hepatitis B and C viruses. In this case we may come to a situation in which we either have to be vaccinated, or infected.

What do you think about that view?

 

It's not a "conspiracy theory"  - it's a fact. Being vaccinated does not make immune to reinfection. You can still get infected and be contagious to others for a few days until you recover, you will just handle the disease better/less severely.

Vaccine helps mostly YOU, not the others.


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#653 Dorian Grey

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Posted 13 March 2021 - 02:58 AM

Recently I formed in my mind an alternative view or cnspirative theory, whatever you name it.

I heared, that the aim of the COVID19 vaccines actually is not to stop vaccinated from getting the disease, but to reduce their chances of dying. That sounds very nice at first glance, but If this is so, then many of the vaccinated are being transformed into unconscious carriers of the disease, infecting everyone arround, just like there are people not knowing that are carriers of hepatitis B and C viruses. In this case we may come to a situation in which we either have to be vaccinated, or infected.

What do you think about that view?

 

The most disturbing aspect I see here is the possibility of "mutation encouragement".  When vaccines simply frustrate the virus, this encourages mutation towards vaccine escape.  This expert has already sounded the alarm.  

 

 

It has been pointed out, the most disturbing variants that we've already seen have occurred in areas where large scale vaccine trials were done.   

 

Coincidence?  


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#654 Danail Bulgaria

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Posted 13 March 2021 - 05:57 AM

In my country currently the number of the vaccinated rises paralel with the number of the infected. More and more get vaccinated, and more and more get infected. I don't find a logical explanation except if vaccinated are really spreading the disease. They feel confident for themselves, and take no precautions. The general population can't or doesn't want to take efficient other measures, such as avoiding contacts, desinfecting hands and wearing masks, and get the virus. Thigs add up perfectly for the moment.


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#655 Hip

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Posted 13 March 2021 - 05:51 PM

In my country currently the number of the vaccinated rises paralel with the number of the infected. More and more get vaccinated, and more and more get infected. I don't find a logical explanation except if vaccinated are really spreading the disease. 

 

A lot of countries in southern Europe are currently being hit with the more infectious British variant of coronavirus (Kent variant).

 

One Italian scientist has blamed Switzerland for this, as the Swiss allowed their ski slopes to remain open, allowing British people on ski holidays to transmit their virus to southern Europe. The British variant is thought to be the cause of the sudden increase in cases Italy is now experiencing. 

 

See: Is Switzerland to blame for Europe’s third wave of coronavirus?

 

So perhaps it might explain the increase in cases in Bulgaria. This article says that the British variant has already hit Bulgaria.



#656 Danail Bulgaria

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Posted 13 March 2021 - 08:13 PM

Fine, but if that is the case, and British variant is taking over even though the vaccines, then that rises new questions

- is the vaccine effective against the British variant?

- if it is not effective enough, why are we vaccinating at all, if it will teke over?

- how is that the same vaccine effective against the British variant in Great Briatin, but not in Bulgaria?

 


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#657 joesixpack

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Posted 13 March 2021 - 09:14 PM

Off label use of existing therapeutics has not been pursued in the US, although the drugs are being used in many other countries.

 

North America has put all of its eggs in the New Drugs, and New Vaccine basket, in order to end lock downs and reopen businesses.

 

As you have stated, we are now being told that the vaccine may not be as effective as they thought it would be. You can still get infected, and it may not work against "variant's". If it does not prevent infection, it is difficult to see how herd immunity can be achieved.

 

So, If the vaccine does not work and there are no therapeutics that work consistently, where does that leave us?


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#658 Hip

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Posted 14 March 2021 - 12:57 AM

Fine, but if that is the case, and British variant is taking over even though the vaccines, then that rises new questions

- is the vaccine effective against the British variant?

- if it is not effective enough, why are we vaccinating at all, if it will teke over?

- how is that the same vaccine effective against the British variant in Great Briatin, but not in Bulgaria?

 

What percentage of the Bulgarian population has been vaccinated? I expect it's only a small percentage so far, therefore the vaccine will not yet have a major impact on the number of new COVID cases. So vaccination will not yet provide any substantial protection from coronavirus until it is rolled out to most of the population.     

 

Britain was the first to be hit by the British variant, and the UK has been in lockdown ever since January 2021, when that variant was discovered to be rampantly spreading in the UK. That lockdown has helped keep the virus in check in Britain.

 

Have you been in lockdown in Bulgaria since discovering the British variant? If not, that could well explain the rising cases.



#659 Danail Bulgaria

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Posted 14 March 2021 - 06:53 AM

What percentage of the Bulgarian population has been vaccinated? I expect it's only a small percentage so far, therefore the vaccine will not yet have a major impact on the number of new COVID cases. So vaccination will not yet provide any substantial protection from coronavirus until it is rolled out to most of the population.     

 

Britain was the first to be hit by the British variant, and the UK has been in lockdown ever since January 2021, when that variant was discovered to be rampantly spreading in the UK. That lockdown has helped keep the virus in check in Britain.

 

Have you been in lockdown in Bulgaria since discovering the British variant? If not, that could well explain the rising cases
 

 

I don't know the official statistics. I know that there were ques everywhere vaccines were made. Thousands vacinated every day for sure. Now after the several deaths, the vaccination with Astra Zeneka something stopped. But people keep on vaccinating with the other vacines in a much slower pace. I heared on the TV that the vaccines are short in Bulgaria compared with the other countries in the EU. So maybe yes, you in Great Britain should be more vaccinated. Are the vaccinated in Great Britain uninfectable or simply take the disease better?

 

In Bulgaria we have never been in a lockdown. Though we had periods when all shops were closed exept the food stores and the pharmacies. We may say eventually, that this was some form of a lockdown.

 

As general we bulgarians have no luck. The junks who left Bulgaria in search of a "new life", instaed of staying in their new country, benefit from the gifts of their new life, and the local medicine out there, they keep pushing back from everywhere. It is not a surprise at all, that we have the British variant. From the western variants we should have them all. If by any chance some variant dissapears, some new junk will come back whipping from somewhere, and will inoculate it again. And on the top of that people don't want to follow social distance and wear masks, and we are short of vaccines. Simply beautiful.


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#660 Hip

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Posted 14 March 2021 - 03:17 PM

I don't know the official statistics. I know that there were ques everywhere vaccines were made.  

 

In the UK the vaccination program is rolling out faster that most other countries, but at the moment only a third of the UK population have received at least one dose of a coronavirus vaccine. Ref: here

 

So maybe in Bulgaria we might guess that only a quarter of the population have received one dose so far. 







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