54 replies to this topic

[opales]

does anyone know a good substance to reduce anxiety in social situations such as parties? Alcohol has been the drug of choice in that area for but the healthy doses (1-3 drinks) do not seem to be effective enough, and beyond that the risk of various negative ailments just becomes too large (not mention the working time lost to hangover) to justify its usage (for serious life extensionist). I think this a serious topic as alcohol/illicit drugs are probably the crux of many young life extensionists regime.

I have had good results with AOR's Ortho-Adapt as it reduces the dose needed with alcohol, but still not enough. I was thinking of adding something along the lines of phenibut, but I do not know that much it about neither do I know a source within EU. Would that be good?

This M&M thread assesses pretty much the same issue (although my problem is not restricted to hitting up girls but business contacts too), that's where I got the idea for phenibut too. If someone has additional arguments besides the ones presented in that thread that would be great, however, I would really like that this thread does not degenerate to discussion about social cognition or mental models, suffice to say I am past that, I need chemical assistance

http://www.mindandmu...showtopic=23931

Preferably the substance should be legit, and it would be super if someone could point me to a source within EU area. The substance could be for long term usage (like an anti-depressant, stronger adaptogen than what is in Ortho-Adapt) but preferably something with acute effects.

Edited by opales, 07 June 2006 - 01:01 PM.

[FunkOdyssey]

Have you ever experimented with a strong dose of theanine? Somewhere in the neighborhood of 300-500mg? You can even go higher than that if necessary -- its very benign. At a high dose, it has a potent anxiety-reducing effect without impairing cognition.

[arcticjoe]

Dont know if its legal in your country, but have you tried GBL?

[opales]

Have you ever experimented with a strong dose of theanine? Somewhere in the neighborhood of 300-500mg?  You can even go higher than that if necessary -- its very benign.  At a high dose, it has a potent anxiety-reducing effect without impairing cognition.

No I have not. Re:thenine and phenibut, this comment by liorrh made me a little skeptical

Safer answer? who knows. I've advised a friends using Inositol SAM-E and Phenibut/Theanine, SAM-E up to 2000mg(!) didnt do any pronounced shit, same as Phenibut and Theanine. Inositol at 10 grams yielded some talkativeness. but the drive/relaxation was still down.

As I said, however, I don't need to completely get rid of alcohol, just bring it down to safe levels (preferably max 3 doses), so theanine/phenibut/inositol might do the trick. OTOH at least phenibut to seems to enhance alcohol's effects, so reduced dosage could be just an illusion. Also mixing up multiple subtances is not exactly the safest thing to do, but then again, neither is excessive alcohol (the negative effects of *excessive* alcohol is one of the best documented health facts)

In this case I would be perhaps willing to use experimental approach using hangover as a proxy for health effects (I tend to get hangovers pretty easily).

[opales]

Dont know if its legal in your country, but have you tried GBL?

I think continuous availability would be a problem, it appears to be converted to GHB so I assume there would have to be zero-tolerance with taking alcohol simultaneously, which makes me very VERY uncomfortable.

[opales]

Have you ever experimented with a strong dose of theanine? Somewhere in the neighborhood of 300-500mg?  You can even go higher than that if necessary -- its very benign.  At a high dose, it has a potent anxiety-reducing effect without impairing cognition.

How would that compare mood brightening vice, alone and with low dose alcohol? Would you guesstimate 500mg theanine + 1-3 doses of alcohol give the kind of effect I am looking for, of which Liorrh's characterization is fairly good one

http://www.mindandmu...howtopic=23931#

Confident, calm, dominant, smooth, funny, laid back

[FunkOdyssey]

I've never actually tried it with alcohol -- I use theanine to blunt the stress of my Sundays running the Pepboys service department. I do expect it would synergize with a low-to-moderate amount of alcohol in the way you are looking for. Give it a shot.

[ubey]

Tianeptine has acute anxiolytic effects for me. It definitely makes your self-esteem rise thus the urge to talk with strangers increases. It gives you confidence that you can handle it. It makes you smarter either.

[opales]

Tianeptine has acute anxiolytic effects for me. It definitely makes your self-esteem rise thus the urge to talk with strangers increases. It gives you confidence that you can handle it. It makes you smarter either.

Does anyone know a reliable source in EU?

[rjws]

Ive Finnished up my frst batch of phenibut. at the recommended dosage on the bottle had little effect even with my margaritas.

At a full teaspoon and a drink there is a smooth mood enhancement, and in the morning for me the phenibut hangover is like taking to much caffeine. There is a lag but the energy is there.

My wife didnt notice any effects of phenibut until she took almost a full tablespoon while drinking wine.

The correct dosage of phenibut is going to be hard to find I think its very different to different people. I only take it on weekends and mostly every other weekend.

[Shepard]

What sort of feeling are you going for? Laid back or excited/hyper/talkative?

[opales]

What sort of feeling are you going for? Laid back or excited/hyper/talkative?

Hard to describe, but I would say in order of importance:

a) losing anxiety is the primary target
b) producing social behaviour (talkative?) and perhaps being witty are equally important depending on the situation. However, being witty is usually fairly easy after anxiety is gone.
c) Preferably sexuality enhancing (not decreasing is the minimum requirement overriding others).

I think whatever works hitting up girls is a pretty good proxy, thus the reference to M&M thread.

BTW, I think alcohol does pretty much what I want but it is just not anxiolytic enough for me at low doses (even when I have taken a course of Ortho-Adapt, which I mentioned did reduce the need for alcohol but not enough). And perhaps a little added sociability too on top of that, the problem is not as noticable however as with anxiety.

[doug123]

Ativan (Lorazepam) 2 mg. It's very addictive though. Last summer I was taking 6 mg a day (or more)...turned me into an arrogant (and eventually delusional) asshole. The ladies seemed to like me...

[ajnast4r]

i start my mornings out with 600mg guarana (50% ext: 300mg caffeine) and 2 caps of gaia herbs 'adrenal health'... ive found this stack to have a rediculously positive effect on my mood & social abilities.

if youre prone to anxiety, i would replacing the guarana with a cup of green tea. good quality sencha will give you the positive effect of caffeine & theanine, without the negative effects you would get from coffee.

the 'adrenal health' product is:

Holy Basil 400 mg
Rhodiola Rosea 200 mg (3%/1%)
Ashwagandha Root 100 mg (Sensoril 8%)
Schizandra Berry 100 mg
Oats, Wild Milky Seed 100mg


ive found what im asuming is the synergy between the natural caffeine from guarana, holy basil, rhodiola & ashwagandha to be AMAZING... *completely* eliminating my occasional depression & constant lethargy, and increasing my motivation & social abilities quite drastically... working much better together, than any of them work apart.

its the only thing out of the many(many) supplements ive tried other than a multi that i plan on keeping in my regimen on a permanent basis.

[unbreakable]

something to replace alcohol, as (acute) anxiolytic and mood enhancer... does anyone know a good substance to reduce anxiety in social situations such as parties?

a) losing anxiety is the primary target
b) producing social behaviour (talkative?) and perhaps being witty are equally important depending on the situation. However, being witty is usually fairly easy after anxiety is gone.
c) Preferably sexuality enhancing (not decreasing is the minimum requirement overriding others).

The most effective drug for that purpose would be GHB/GBL. GHB is considered a controlled substance in european countries, but GBL (which is rapidly converted to GHB after ingestion) is not and it can be bought over the net. Unlike alcohol both substances have very low chronic toxicity, but they can be psychologically and physiologically addictive just like alcohol/benzodiazepines/barbiturates. The dose-response curve is very steep, if a person takes just a little too much, she falls asleep. Mixing GHB/GBL with other central nervous system depressants can lead to respiratory depression/failure/death. If GHB/GBL is consumed 24/7 (every 2-3 hours) for a longer period of time severe physiological addiction may occur.

GHB/GBL is a very potent anxiolytic/mood enhancer, especially in cases of social phobia but it can be pretty dangerous too.

Edited by unbreakable, 07 June 2006 - 06:46 PM.

[xanadu]

If it takes someone a whole tablespoon of phenibut to feel the effects, either it's not good phenibut or the person has an enormous tollerance to it. Regular use of tranks might produce a cross tollerance, not sure. 200 to 400mg phenibut does the job for me. You will build up tollerance after repeated uses in a short period so it's mostly for occasional use, no more than about once a week.

[opales]

Ativan (Lorazepam) 2 mg.  It's very addictive though.  Last summer I was taking 6 mg a day (or more)...turned me into an arrogant (and eventually delusional) asshole.  The ladies seemed to like me...

Hmmm, I'm sure it is efficient anxiolytic but does it not bring about lethargy, as all other benzos? It is described as a sedative for example here

http://www.mentalhea...a04.html#Head_1

I am not too worried about addiction in general, I am not the type.

What about alcohol and lorazepam?

Some + alcohol is what's usually abused. Or other benzos. I personally hate all downers, specially mixing two of them.

What I take 2-3 times a month is 100-200mg tramadol. It gives nice euphoria but relaxed and talkative feeling. I don't drink (though i can and tramadol seems to completely blocks effect of alcohol on brain) but I say to everyone that i had few drinks.
Comparing sides of such ocassional dose of tramadol vs. alcohol, tramadol comes out as a winner. I'm not promoting abuse!!!

Please be aware that some get addicted to tramadol (but also many more on alcohol) so be carefull if you choose that.

I just came of tramadol because of minor surgery and have to say I did not notice any of the effects you mention. However, I was not looking for those effects so I might have to give it a try sometime.

For me almost anything would come out a winner compared to alcohol sides.

i start my mornings out with 600mg guarana (50% ext: 300mg caffeine) and 2 caps of gaia herbs 'adrenal health'... ive found this stack to have a rediculously positive effect on my mood & social abilities.

if youre prone to anxiety, i would replacing the guarana with a cup of green tea. good quality sencha will give you the positive effect of caffeine & theanine, without the negative effects you would get from coffee.

the 'adrenal health' product is:

Holy Basil 400 mg
Rhodiola Rosea 200 mg (3%/1%)
Ashwagandha Root 100 mg (Sensoril 8%)
Schizandra Berry 100 mg
Oats, Wild Milky Seed 100mg

ive found what im asuming is the synergy between the natural caffeine from guarana, holy basil, rhodiola & ashwagandha to be AMAZING... *completely* eliminating my occasional depression & constant lethargy, and increasing my motivation & social abilities quite drastically... working much better together, than any of them work apart.

its the only thing out of the many(many) supplements ive tried other than a multi that i plan on keeping in my regimen on a permanent basis.

Hmmm, the Ortho-Adapt seems to be fairly similar to that product. As said, it did seem to reduce anxiety in stressful situations (without compromising cognition), but it was not powerful enough for *very high pressure* situations such as talking to girl or a business executive [lol] , even in presence of low dose alcohol.

Anyway I have an intense job and I have to attend social parties quite a bit so I am probably going to continue with Ortho-Adapt as base stress reducer and anxiolytic, however, I might give tianeptine a try for comparison. But I do need something stronger added for special occasions.

I did/still do drink either tea or coffee in addition to Ortho-Adapt but I think my overall motivation has been pretty much unaffected. I was perhaps on a bit better mood, but only slight effect, not near as much as say keeping a regular exercise schedule.

Going forward, I am going to give high dose theanine (and maybe phenibut if I can get it) a shot, if that does not help enough (which I think it won't) I'll move on to "harder" drugs perhaps tianeptine, and maybe give tramadol and lorazepam a shot. Obviously this is in itself is probably not the optimal LE strategy, however, I am fairly certain it still beats drinking too much alcohol.

The most effective drug for that purpose would be GHB/GBL. GHB is considered a controlled substance in european countries, but GBL (which is rapidly converted to GHB after ingestion) is not and it can be bought over the net. Unlike alcohol both substances have very low chronic toxicity, but they can be psychologically and physiologically addictive just like alcohol/benzodiazepines/barbiturates. The dose-response curve is very steep, if a person takes just a little too much, she falls asleep. Mixing GHB/GBL with other central nervous system depressants can lead to respiratory depression/failure/death. If GHB/GBL is consumed 24/7 (every 2-3 hours) for a longer period of time severe physiological addiction may occur.

GHB/GBL is a very potent anxiolytic/mood enhancer, especially in cases of social phobia but it can be pretty dangerous too.

GHB is illegal here I think, I would have to check with GBL. I am afraid of required total abstistence from alcohol as I have heard is the case with GHB (and thus GBL too??). I mean, alcohol is virtually the only abused drug here but that leads to it being very hard to avoid altogether when socializing.

[unbreakable]

GHB is illegal here I think, I would have to check with GBL. I am afraid of required total abstistence from alcohol as I have heard is the case with GHB (and thus GBL too??). I mean, alcohol is virtually the only abused drug here but that leads to it being very hard to avoid altogether when socializing.

I have no problems combining a moderate dose of GBL (1.2 ml) with 1-2 beers but it may differ from person to person. Drinking much alcohol and then taking GBL is really dangerous and must strictly be avoided.

[rjws]

Got my phenibut from BN is there a different supplier?

[nihilist]

does anyone know a good substance to reduce anxiety in social situations such as parties? Alcohol has been the drug of choice in that area for but the healthy doses (1-3 drinks) do not seem to be effective enough, and beyond that the risk of various negative ailments just becomes too large (not mention the working time lost to hangover) to justify its usage (for serious life extensionist). I think this a serious topic as alcohol/illicit drugs are probably the crux of many young life extensionists regime.

I have had good results with AOR's Ortho-Adapt as it reduces the dose needed with alcohol, but still not enough. I was thinking of adding something along the lines of phenibut, but I do not know that much it about neither do I know a source within EU. Would that be good?

This M&M thread assesses pretty much the same issue (although my problem is not restricted to hitting up girls but business contacts too), that's where I got the idea for phenibut too. If someone has additional arguments besides the ones presented in that thread that would be great, however, I would really like that this thread does not degenerate to discussion about social cognition or mental models, suffice to say I am past that, I need chemical assistance

http://www.mindandmu...showtopic=23931

Preferably the substance should be legit, and it would be super if someone could point me to a source within EU area. The substance could be for long term usage (like an anti-depressant, stronger adaptogen than what is in Ortho-Adapt) but preferably something with acute effects.

this isnt going to be a popular piece of advice for a group like imminst, who're very focused on supplements as a cure for anything.

while everything has its place, this isnt a situation it does.

i have a buddy like you, without the drug problems i seem to remember you talking about elsewhere.

it is very, very rare for someone to never get a bit uneasy, on occasion, in a public situation. its just like the biggest zipper pimp on the planet occasionally gets tongue tied with a chick. so, it is my opinon that total negation is impossible, for all but very few.

instead of basing your plan around intoxication or supplemental calm, how about beating your fear?

my buddy has a fairly juvenile POV that imagines every time he tries to talk to a chick, hes not only gonna get blown off, hes gonna get decimated. some sort of teenaged movie, soul stealing, destruction shit.

in my travels, if you get a bad chewing out from a chick you usually deserve it. or youre dealing with some headcase, in which case, **** her.

in the former example, not many ppl act up that bad. especially a guy whos wrapped a bit too tight like yourself. so relax.

some ppl, who already have social problems, make bad choices that will compound the problem. going to a bar by yourself is a prime one. youre going to go in there, see other ppl dancing and talking.... then you start drinking. your psuedo-isolation among a seemingly jovial enviornent makes your mood nose dive, then you crawl back home and your issues are compounded by this.

my suggestion: start small and build.

goto places that dotn have loud music. this makes ppl talk to ease the tension silence always brings. add stuff to the conversation and just let things flow.

socialize at work. work is a place that youre likely to meet some pals to hit a bar with. all you need it one person to go with.

join a local group of some sort. or start one and advertise it.

give the appearance of being happy and funny. you dont have to actually be funny, most ppl will appeciate the effort. upbeat is always good.

smile at ppl, paticularly chicks. im assuming youre straight here. smiling for no reason to this day strikes me as dumb, but it works. and i do what works.

at the end fo the day, this is like that old saying: give a man a fish, and feed him for a day. teach him to fish, and you feed him for life. needing drinks or supplements works for a moment, when you dose up. otherwise, youre fucked. you can beat your phobia, especially if you commit to it fully. its alot easier than you think.

[doug123]

1 or 2 mg of Ativan won't make you too tired, just very loose and relaxed. I mentioned Ativan instead of Klonopin, Valium, or Xanax because those are far more sedating in my opinion.

[kottke]

Since we're talking about alcohol and recreation here it may not be inapropriate to recomend a very low dose (like 1-2 hits) of high quality marijuana before engaging in ceratin social interactions. It can tottaly stop you're anxiety and chill you out temporarily. You can get increased anxiety, but its usually quite the opposite;rebound anxiety is a common symptom of longterm use. Its really dependent on the quality of the weed and the method used for smoking. I personally do not smoke marijuana anymore, but when i did it gave me a great since of relief until continued use which it brought on anxiety.

Mixed with alcohol its brings on amazing creativity, quickness, and since of well being (for me anyway) and if you're a heavy nootropic user it could diminish alot of the health side effects assosiated with the two. I know you're probably not going to jump on this idea, but it is something to think about for OCCASIONAL use.

[FunkOdyssey]

Somehow I can't see Opales smoking a blunt to take the edge off business meetings. [tung]

[opales]

Somehow I can't see Opales smoking a blunt to take the edge off business meetings. [tung]

[lol]

Anywho, recreationally I would have no problem taking that stuff if I believed it had less severe health effects (I don't), however, it is very difficult to obtain here, as are most other drugs excluding alcohol (at least compared to US). Somehow there just does not seem to be that many drug dealers (that I know of) in my social network for some reason.

Nihilist, I will address your points when I have more time, but in short I very much disagree with some fundamental issues (even though your practical advices might hold some promise for some people, not for me though).

[arcticjoe]

I have no problems combining a moderate dose of GBL (1.2 ml) with 1-2 beers but it may differ from person to person. Drinking much alcohol and then taking GBL is really dangerous and must strictly be avoided.

Ditto. I also can go as far as having a beer and droping a few shots of tequilla shortly after G without feeling too wasted. If used with caution its probably the one of least toxic social drugs one can use.

[kottke]

Somehow I can't see Opales smoking a blunt to take the edge off business meetings. [tung]

Hahaha smoke that blunt opales. Show them who the ring leader is at these meetings [lol]

[hallucinogen]

Have you tried ---->
?

Try drinking alcohol after that

[doug123]

1 or 2 mg of Ativan won't make you too tired, just very loose and relaxed.  I mentioned Ativan instead of Klonopin, Valium, or Xanax because those are far more sedating in my opinion.

Or just take some modafinil with your Ativan if you want to appear particularly relaxed and awake at the same time.