54 replies to this topic

[pycnogenol]

I've found that Lyrica 100 mg can be quite relaxing without causing too much lethargy.

[Pablo M]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned kava kava. Ward Dean, MD, of Vitamin Research Products speculates that the kavalactones are metabolized into GHB.

[emerson]

Have you tried ---->

Hey, who knows, if some of the amanita theories hold water he might walk out of the party as the head of a new religious movement

[opales]

1 or 2 mg of Ativan won't make you too tired, just very loose and relaxed.  I mentioned Ativan instead of Klonopin, Valium, or Xanax because those are far more sedating in my opinion.

How does Ativan mix with alcohol? (I know it's not recommended, I would want to know however what kind of amounts would be likely needed for adverse effects)

[eternaltraveler]

could be very bad, they can potentiate each-others effect dramatically to the point of being dangerous.

Don't do it.

[l33tn00b]

So phenibut is the best bet or kava kava? I'm trying to follow along....

[opales]

So phenibut is the best bet or kava kava?  I'm trying to follow along....

I don't think kava is a good choice, it is known to cause liver damage and even deaths, especially when combined with alcohol.

http://www.imminst.o...=0

[doug123]

Ativan itself can be very intoxicating and make you act pretty dumb -- if you take too much, for sure. Clonazepam turned me into a chronic retard. I could barely even walk or talk on that shit. But I felt okay!

How embarrassing.

Ativan has a very short half life, so many people who take it (many get addicted, as I did) three times a day...Ask your doctor for a sample of ativan or clonazepam for acute social anxiety; as that's what it seems the problem is for many that alcohol seems to solve for most. How many women (and men) have their first sexual imprinting in an atmosphere of alcohol? Alcohol is probably among the top 10 most dangerous drugs that I know of; and its legal.

Don't drink and drive, right?

[l33tn00b]

Yeah true.

[pafinker]

Regardless of what any other members said, I would like to adress the first question that you are having, which is that you don't think that you should drink alcohol because of it's so called detrimental effects. I would like to adress this issue by saying that alcohol is good for you, and can lower cholesterol and prevent you from getting heard disease. You adressed the issue of getting hangovers, something in which i have never recieved despite years of drinking alcohol. If you want the best hangover cure ever, you should check out this guys site at www.letsdrinkmore.com. He explains, by using the scientific method, that hangovers are simply the result of good substances leaving your body during alcohol consumption, and how replacing these said nutrients will warrant the hangover nonexistent.

[pafinker]

Regarding the notion of doing drugs to have fun in outside enviroments, you should remember that drugs are like tools, and cannot make you have a good time, just like a stationary hammer cannot drive a nail into a board, it needs a user to be able to do work. i believe that drugs should only be consumed by happy and independent individuals, for if you use drugs in a state of depression, the resulting euphoria will diccipate eventually, leaving the user to look back to the drug to gain back the euphoria he lost. Once this cycle occurs a few times, it triggers certain pleasure centers of the brain, which make the user think that the drug, and only the drug, will be able to make the user feel better. This causes addiction, and is a serious issue. I've been using a number of drugs for years now, including cocaine, heroin, fentanyl, MDMA, MDA, MDME, 2-CB, LSD, alcohol, and on rare occasion marijuana. So far i'm still in grad school (on track, that is), and have not gotten sick or visited a doctor sans regular checkups since high school. If you think that legal drugs, such as Ativan or Xanax are somehow better for you than currently illegal drugs, such as mescaline or cocaine, you are surely mistaken. Did you know that acetominephen (tylenol) is more dangerous than cocaine? So if you're going to do drugs, make sure you are happy with the self that you present to the world on a day to day basis, and if you go out at night and can't have fun without some sort of intoxication, then i think you shold take a deeper look at yourself in order to diagnose the problem. Drugs and alcohol will not make you have a good time, but they can make a good time better. I know this past article has been kind of jumbled, since i am new to the site and i'd like to discus a number of topics, but if you have any questions feel free to e-mail me about them.

[opales]

Regardless of what any other members said, I would like to adress the first question that you are having, which is that you don't think that you should drink alcohol because of it's so called detrimental effects.  I would like to adress this issue by saying that alcohol is good for you, and can lower cholesterol and prevent you from getting heard disease.  You adressed the issue of getting hangovers, something in which i have never recieved despite years of drinking alcohol.  If you want the best hangover cure ever, you should check out this guys site at www.letsdrinkmore.com.  He explains, by using the scientific method, that hangovers are simply the result of good substances leaving your body during alcohol consumption, and how replacing these said nutrients will warrant the hangover nonexistent.

You should have read my post more carefully. I agree that low dose alcohol (1-3) might have health benefits, but this thread was mostly about reducing binge-like drinking into involving only healthy levels of alcohol. The detrimental longterm health effects of drinking high doses (>3) on single occasions (i.e. binging) is one the most robustly supported epidemiological facts.

Regarding the notion of doing drugs to have fun in outside enviroments, you should remember that drugs are like tools, and cannot make you have a good time, just like a stationary hammer cannot drive a nail into a board, it needs a user to be able to do work. i believe that drugs should only be consumed by happy and independent individuals, for if you use drugs in a state of depression, the resulting euphoria will diccipate eventually, leaving the user to look back to the drug to gain back the euphoria he lost. Once this cycle occurs a few times, it triggers certain pleasure centers of the brain, which make the user think that the drug, and only the drug, will be able to make the user feel better. This causes addiction, and is a serious issue. I've been using a number of drugs for years now, including cocaine, heroin, fentanyl, MDMA, MDA, MDME, 2-CB, LSD, alcohol, and on rare occasion marijuana. So far i'm still in grad school (on track, that is), and have not gotten sick or visited a doctor sans regular checkups since high school. If you think that legal drugs, such as Ativan or Xanax are somehow better for you than currently illegal drugs, such as mescaline or cocaine, you are surely mistaken. Did you know that acetominephen (tylenol) is more dangerous than cocaine? So if you're going to do drugs, make sure you are happy with the self that you present to the world on a day to day basis, and if you go out at night and can't have fun without some sort of intoxication, then i think you shold take a deeper look at yourself in order to diagnose the problem. Drugs and alcohol will not make you have a good time, but they can make a good time better. I know this past article has been kind of jumbled, since i am new to the site and i'd like to discus a number of topics, but if you have any questions feel free to e-mail me about them.

Again, my preference for legitimate substances was not so much about health but rather availability and legal issues. Drug use other than alcohol is not very common in my country. I have never been offered drugs in my life, so I think I might have hard time ensuring "constant supply" even if I want to. Also, doing harshly criminalized substances has the inherent downside of doing harshly criminalized substances, i.e. getting caught and prosecuted might not be the best possible career/life move.

[pafinker]

Born a sleepwalker and a sleepwalker you shall be forced to remain. Not by exterior dynamics, but by your own unopened lenses. If you're so hidebound, why ask for guidance? Enlightenment is sought by many, but reached by a few. The enlightened one always gives advice, and will never ask for so much as a penny in return. All that he asks is that his subjects challenge to reach the same status he has through the same means, without so much as a nominal hesitation. For the ones that ask do not believe, and the ones that follow will be rewarded a thousand fold their inquest.

[xanadu]

I think both sides have points in this debate. Opales is correct that legal sanctions can be detrimental to your life expression and many illegal things can be detrimental to your health. Perhaps in your case, pafinker, it has not resulted that way but it might in the future. Cocaine is one of the more harmful illegal drugs. I don't have links or copies of the studies handy but it has been shown to do harm to the brain, heart, and circulatory system in long term use. It also has strong potential for addiction as do opiates which you mention. You talk as though such a thing is not possible for you, that you are above that. Some people, a few, may be able to consume addictive substances for a long time without ever becoming hooked but most are not able. We all may imagine we are one of the ones who can handle it but what about when things go wrong? What about when you lose your job, get a divorce or breakup a relationship? What about when there are health or financial problems and a lot of stress? What worked before may not work anymore and addiction can creep up on you before you have a clue. That's even more true when you think you are immune to addiction due to your knowledge or high moral character.

Alcohol is legal but I question it's effects on health. Yes, it has potential to do some good things if used in moderation. If not used in moderation, it can do a lot of harm to the body. Despite a few studies showing health benefits from alcohol, they have failed to show a corresponding increace in life span among drinkers in the general population. In fact, the more people drink the more health problems they seem to have. Alcohol being easy to get, legal and relatively cheap, might become the drug of choice. The talk about it having purported health benefits makes it sound safe which it is not. Addiction is a very real possibility with this one as well.

I've tried or used several illicit things in my time and I believe many of them are relatively safe. I'm puzzled by the demonisation of marijuana which has been shown to have few if any side effects if used responsibly and is not physically addictive at all. No one has been known to die of acute mj ingestion, that I know of. Can you say that of many other drugs? Opiates are not something I care for but are relatively harmless to the body. Addiction is the main worry with that. They may make nootropics illegal in the future. I will not give up my piracetam no matter what the government thinks is good for me.

[opales]

Born a sleepwalker and a sleepwalker you shall be forced to remain.  Not by exterior dynamics, but by your own unopened lenses.  If you're so hidebound, why ask for guidance?  Enlightenment is sought by many, but reached by a few.  The enlightened one always gives advice, and will never ask for so much as a penny in return.  All that he asks is that his subjects challenge to reach the same status he has through the same means, without so much as a nominal hesitation.  For the ones that ask do not believe, and the ones that follow will be rewarded a thousand fold their inquest.

Ummm...what?

[patch]

[quote]Did you know that acetominephen (tylenol) is more dangerous than cocaine? QUOTE]

I've heard people say that heroin is worse than cigarettes, based on the fact that cigarettes cause more deaths in the US than heroin. And I've heard that coffee is more addictive than crack based on the fact that the number of crack users who quit is greater than the number of coffee drinkers who quit.

I googled 'cocaine tylenol' and found this http://www.marijuana...read_forbes.htm which I assume is where you got your info. In 1996 there were about 70 cocaine deaths and 105 tylenol (alone and in combination with other things) deaths reported to poison control centers. First, this includes suicides, where people are likely to take a lot of tylenol. Second, cocaine overdoses are probably not going to be reported to poison control centers, while tylenol deaths would. Third, there are a hundred times more tylenol users than cocaine users. Fourth, number of deaths is not the only measure of safety. One in a million tylenol users will die because of it, while perhaps one in three cocaine users will end up homeless criminals/prostitutes.

The good thing about alcohol is that it has built-in countermeasures against addiction. A hangover punished you so you won't drink too often, while ativan etc. has no hangovers so they can be habit forming/addictive, as they are for so many people. And you can keep a benzo habit secret and still funtion, while you can't have a few drinks at lunch time and get away with it. So benzos are much more conducive to addiction. Just something to consider...

[FunkOdyssey]

Born a sleepwalker and a sleepwalker you shall be forced to remain. Not by exterior dynamics, but by your own unopened lenses. If you're so hidebound, why ask for guidance? Enlightenment is sought by many, but reached by a few. The enlightened one always gives advice, and will never ask for so much as a penny in return. All that he asks is that his subjects challenge to reach the same status he has through the same means, without so much as a nominal hesitation. For the ones that ask do not believe, and the ones that follow will be rewarded a thousand fold their inquest.

So if Opales uses various illegal drugs, he will reach your enlightened status and be rewarded a thousand-fold? [lol]

[pafinker]

The cocaine fact was based on the pharmacokinetic model of drug metabolism by the liver. The liver of an average adult male (70-kg) with no tolerance can eliminate up to 5 grams of cocaine per day. It's not to say that this is always the case, as some people ingest too much too quick and have serious cardiac problems, including heart attacks. On the other hand, the human liver can only metabolize about 4 grams of tylenol before the cells start to die, due to the fact that the metaoblite of acetominophen can accumulate more than the metabolite of cocaine. Oh, and if you do use cocaine, and you don't want to fail a drug test, tell the person recieving your urine that you were on Amoxicillin all week for a sinus infection, as the metabolite in cocaine that they test for is the same as that of amoxicillin. I go to grad school for pharmacology, i do not use google to retrieve information.

[patch]

A massive overdose of cocaine is less harmful than a massive overdose of tylenol. Therefore cocaine is safer than tylenol.
You're the expert. I've got a headache so I'm going to do a couple lines.

[arcticjoe]

The main porblem with coke isnt the hepatoxicity or heart damage, its cokes effetcs on your brain that will probably **** you the worst. Also, coke on the streets is very very poor quality, even the "good coke", that oh-so-pure cut straight from the rock shit that your dealer is raving about is probably only 40% coke at best. The rest is fillers, dogshit ranging from inositol to anti-biotics, and you dont want to be putting crap into your system that you dont know about. Same goes for pills and to a lesser extent speed.

[eldar]

Opales: GHB is illegal here I think, I would have to check with GBL. I am afraid of required total abstistence from alcohol as I have heard is the case with GHB (and thus GBL too??). I mean, alcohol is virtually the only abused drug here but that leads to it being very hard to avoid altogether when socializing.

GBL actually is legal here, but the problem being selling it and importing it on the other hand is illegal and often considered in legal perspective same as dealing/importing narcotics, so no luck there.

You wouldn't happen to know of the phenibut status here? GABA is considered a description drug, so I would assume phenibut is too, but on the other hand couldn't find any info specifically pointing at phenibut.

[eldar]

Opales:Ortho-Adapt, which I mentioned did reduce the need for alcohol but not enough

This sounds interesting, can you provide some numbers in alcohol servings required for the desired effect to occur before and after taking Ortho-Adapt?

Also,

Going forward, I am going to give high dose theanine a shot

Have you tried this yet? Based on earlier comments here I decided to give it a shot myself, just waiting for my batch to arrive.

[opales]

This sounds interesting, can you provide some numbers in alcohol servings required for the desired effect to occur before and after taking Ortho-Adapt?

It's hard to deconfound what exactly is causing what, but the combination of extremely healthy diet, improved physical condition (leading to lowered weight + improved appearance), increased exposure to sunlight and quite likely also, taking Ortho-Adapt (which seems to provide fairly acutely observable benefits) have lead to quite substantial decrease in dependence of alcohol as an acute anxiolytic. There is not need for going to a level of intoxication that induces clear deficits in intellectual performance. I'd say nowadays about 5 drinks induce almost full confidence (still a little too much), 2-3 seem to give a quite nice boost too, while previously I needed quite a bit more (say, twice as much?), up to point that the overall returns started to diminsh due to declining cognition (not to mentioned ill health).

This has continued to improve since the initiation of this thread, in addition my general mood and confidence seem to have improved as well. In fact, I would say most benefits are caused by improved baseline mood and confidence, rather than any acute benefits.

Although, I am little worried about my liver taking all these substances + alcohol. After all, Ortho-Adapt does include Rhodiola, Licorice, Siberian Ginseng and Ashwagandha. And I don't really know how it would fare against, say, an SSRI or other antidepressant. One advantage in my case at least would be that I don't think I have exprienced any annoying side-effects so far. All and all, I am currently satisfied but will have to do some more research.

Have you tried this yet? Based on earlier comments here I decided to give it a shot myself, just waiting for my batch to arrive.

I tried but I really can't say I experienced that much benefit, at least above what I already gained from Ortho-Adapt. I don't think I will try it again.

[aikikai]

What about the herbs Magnolia and Kava kava? They are claimed to have a good effect on mood and anxiety.

Magnolia info:
http://www.smart-pub...13-magnolia.php

Kava Kava info:
http://www.raysahelian.com/kava.html

[tracer]

I use a generic called tramahexal for pain. From the leaflet...

Tramadol is likely to intensify and prolong the CNS effects of CNS depressant medicines.
Patients should be warned not to operate dangerous machinery or drive a vehicle.
Tramadol does not supress morphine withdrawal symptoms.
It may be necessary to adjust the dose when administering tramadol to patients suffering from impaired renal or hepatic function.
Although TramaHexal® has a low dependence potential, tolerance, psychic and physical dependence of the morphine type (µ opioid) may develop with long term use. The medicine has been associated with craving, drug seeking behaviour and tolerance development. Cases of abuse and dependence on TramaHexal® have been reported. TramaHexal® should not be used in opioid dependent patients. TramaHexal® can re-instate physical dependence in patients that have been previously dependent or chronically using other opioids. In patients with a tendancy to drug abuse, a history of drug dependence, or are chronically using opioids, treatment with TramaHexal® is not recommended.
Seizures have been reported in patients receiving TramaHexal® at doses within the recommended dosage range. The risk of seizures is enhanced in patients exceeding the recommended dose, or in patients taking tricyclic antidepressants or other tricyclic compounds. The risk of seizures may also be increased in patients with epilepsy, a history of seizures or in patients with a recognised risk of seizures e.g. drug and alcohol withdrawal, intracranial infections, head trauma, metabolic disorders and naloxone administration with TramaHexal® overdosage.