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Coronavirus vaccine - no guarantees

coronavirus vaccine

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#1 Mind

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Posted 27 March 2020 - 08:58 PM


Just wondering how effective a COVID-19 vaccine would be? Or any coronavirus vaccine for that matter.

 

The vast majority of fatalities in the COVID-19 pandemic are the elderly. This is consistent in every country. In the worst hit country  - Italy - as of today, over 95% of the victims are over 60. Of the remaining, less than 5% in younger age groups, the vast majority of those have underlying health conditions. The number of healthy people under 60 who succumb to COVID-19 is very small. Yes, there are some younger people who are surviving only with the help of ventilators, but the numbers are still very small in the whole scheme of things.

 

Could we make a coronavirus vaccine that is effective as the flu vaccine? Probably. Just remember, the flu vaccine has proven to be very ineffective in older populations. The elderly have old, damaged, and disregulated immune systems with hardly any naive T-cells and no thymus to make more.

 

Sure, it would be good to have younger people immunized against COVID-19 for herd immunity. It is a more deadly disease than the flu, and if a vaccine is all we have, then it makes obvious sense. However, what happens next winter when it starts ripping through elderly communities once again. Does the whole world crawl in a hole and go into lock-down for a few months?

 

There are many known versions of coronaviruses. This year's vaccine might not work for next year's coronavirus. Also ,recall the nursing home where a less deadly version of coronavirus produced a CFR of 8.4%. If that happens next winter, is the precedent set? Does the whole world go into lock-down?

 

Does anyone have any data indicating any vaccine to be more than 50% effective in elderly populations - such as over 70 years old. Enlighten me, please.

 

It seems to me that other methods, treatments, and technologies are needed. Vaccines are a poor solution if we want to protect elderly populations.


Edited by Mind, 28 March 2020 - 10:13 AM.


#2 orion22

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Posted 28 March 2020 - 08:25 AM

when will fda approve Hydroxychloroquine?


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#3 Mind

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Posted 28 March 2020 - 10:16 AM

when will fda approve Hydroxychloroquine?

 

Here is another thread about that question

 

The consensus is that hydroxychloroquine might not be effective by itself, but that zinc, and potentially potassium need to be added



#4 resveratrol_guy

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Posted 28 March 2020 - 02:41 PM

I just want to make one thing clear. Please have a look at this death-rate-vs-age curve of the 1918 Spanish flu. See that camel's hump in the solid black line? That's overwhelmingly due to cytokine storms in young adults. With COVID19, the young tend to suffer, if anything, from hyperactive immune systems, and the old, from the opposite. The former cases were hardly rare in 1918, as you can see in the graph, and they're not rare in Italy today.

 

Cytokine storms should be mitigated by rapalogs. (I haven't seen mention of this in the news, which shocks me. It's bloody obvious. I've heard of prednisone being used for this purpose, which defies logic.)

 

Lung failure due to resistant infection in the face of immunocompromise is another matter, to be treated with antibiotics, antivirals, Stem Kine, GCSF, or autologous mesenchymal stem cells.

 

This doesn't change the vaccine game one iota, but it's important to realize that we're fighting at least 2 different diseases, in the foregoing regard, to say nothing of L vs S clades.

 

With that out of the way, I'm glad you raised the question. I've read at least one virologist's analysis suggesting that this is a garden variety virus in the vaccine sense, which gives me hope. But remember: this thing has spike proteins, just like GP120 in HIV. (Insert conspiracy theory here.) Does that mean it's also superpolymorphic like HIV? Probably not. Does that mean it suffers from the epitope overlap problem of HIV? Probably. (There was a great TED talk about this, and I'm sorry I'm pressed for time. Bottom line is that HIV vaccines targetting the spike have failed in large part due to the fact that antibodies form which overlap part of the (well conserved) spike with part of the superpolymorphic epitope. So the antibody fails as soon as the epitope, in short order, mutates again.)

 

Then we have the nextstrain.org phylogenic tree, showing it mutating all over the place. On the face of it, this is discouraging, but on the other hand, its empirical mutation rate must be evaluated relative to that of other virusses for which we have good vaccines, for example, hepatitis A. Just because it mutates doesn't mean that we can't find a conserved region (and hopefully some feature other than the spike).

 

These are merely the considerations. I'm not sure where, in the spectrum of mutagenicity, this virus falls. But considering that it stands to infect much of the entire world population, I'm more than a little nervous about its ability to escape a vaccine box. The world is a supercomputer, and each virus is a processing unit, in the quest for resistance.

 

On the other hand, the 1918 Spanish Flu gives me some hope: immunity to the second, deadlier, wave "was most dramatically illustrated in Copenhagen, which escaped with a combined mortality rate of just 0.29% (0.02% in the first wave and 0.27% in the second wave) because of exposure to the less-lethal first wave."

 

So my tentative assumption is that a "vaccine" will be rather more like a flu shot, which is just effective enough to cut infection odds roughly in half, and also materially reduce the mortality rate.

 

Finally, the Spanish Flu article explains why it became more virulent over time, which is just the opposite of a typical pandemic. It had to do with the war: mildly sick individuals stayed in place in the trenches, while very sick ones took transportation back to the hospitals; the opposite is true in civil society, where people stay home only when overwhelmed. I'm gravely concerned that lockdowns will prove to be counterproductive for exactly this reason! I would prefer that we all masked up (with our nonexistent global stockpile of PPE) and returned to work to support the economy, while preventing sick individuals from using any form of mass transit.


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#5 Mind

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Posted 28 March 2020 - 03:34 PM

Thanks for the response. Any thoughts about vaccines, including the flu vaccine, not being effective in the elderly?



#6 resveratrol_guy

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Posted 29 March 2020 - 12:50 AM

Thanks for the response. Any thoughts about vaccines, including the flu vaccine, not being effective in the elderly?

 

Well, the "double stuff" approach for immunocompromised individuals has shown some success with other virusses. But at the end of the day, I now see the strongest theoretical grounding behind the notion that this will be a "flu shot" for everyone, and not a fire-and-forget vaccine. It's still an essential tool, while we hone therapies and make them increasingly safe and economical in the next few years, but it's not a panacea unless some unique and immunogenic part of the epitope is sufficiently well conserved, which on further thought would be remarkable in light of typical coronavirus evolution. We still don't have a cold vaccine, for instance.

Longterm, I personally don't think it's wise to bombard our immune systems with the ever-shifting strain-of-the-year, lest we saturate immune memory (in T cells and B cells) with antigens that we're unlikely to ever encounter. (This is why I'm antivax on the flu. People look at the problem through a telescope, as though the only consideration is whether or not it thwarts flu, with zero regard for its effects on an immune system that needs to attend to an astronomical number of other problems on a continuous basis.) Or, as I prefer to call it, "antiantiantivax":

 

provax: Trust the cost-optimized medical establishment because I'm too lazy to read science.

 

antivax: Don't trust the system because it's all a conspiracy. Thiomersol causes autism and the risk outweighs the reward, even if it protects against ebola and I'm living in the Congo. etc.

 

antiantivax: Look at the science and see that even imperfect vaccines, such as flu vaccine, are indeed effective at thwarting infection and mitigating severe symptoms.

 

antiantiantivax: We need to worry about "antigen distraction" of T and B immune cells. The immune system is like the brain: new memories come, to some extent, at the expense of old ones. But in this case, "old" means "more likely to encounter again" whereas "new" means "theoretically possible to encounter based on the opinion of an epidemiologist somewhere". Let's not vaccinate for chronically mutating pathogens, except in very unusual emergencies such as this one. Our cells need to focus on arresting cancer and attacking pathogens which we harbor in our everyday environment or inside our bodies. If a new form of tumor cell crops up somewhere, do we want an immune system ready to learn new tricks, or one that's been preoccupied by learning every form of the flu ever to infect humanity?
 


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#7 soulprogrammer

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Posted 29 March 2020 - 03:38 AM

I think it is time to think of a cure for virus, just like what antibiotic done for bacteria.

 

Take a pill, rest 3 days, all virus dead, cure. This is what we need, not a vaccine that is too expensive and only works if not contracted the virus earlier.

 

DRACO or other broad band antiviral drugs is the solution. Government and billionaires should fund the DRACO project and other broadband antivral solution, developing vaccine only works for 1 type of virus, and it won't last too long. 

 

Broad spectrum antiviral solution works for many viruses and resistant to mutation.


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#8 abelard lindsay

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Posted 29 March 2020 - 04:06 AM

Remdesivir works.  Just get Gilead to scale up production and charge a reasonable price and we're all saved.   The vaccine will be hard to develop because of ADE which is why the SARS vaccine failed.  The vaccine made the virus MORE deadly.

 

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/25073113

 

 

 

 We also generated monoclonal antibodies against SARS-CoV spike proteins and observed that most of them promoted SARS-CoV infection. Combined, our results suggest that antibodies against SARS-CoV spike proteins may trigger ADE effects. The data raise new questions regarding a potential SARS-CoV vaccine, while shedding light on mechanisms involved in SARS pathogenesis.

 


Edited by abelard lindsay, 29 March 2020 - 04:09 AM.

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#9 resveratrol_guy

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Posted 29 March 2020 - 05:26 AM

Remdesivir works.  Just get Gilead to scale up production and charge a reasonable price and we're all saved.   The vaccine will be hard to develop because of ADE which is why the SARS vaccine failed.  The vaccine made the virus MORE deadly.

 

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/25073113

 

You made it look like the link was to a study on Remdesivir. It would be interesting to see the data supporting your potentially valid claim. Granted, I'm not a big fan of a drug that works on a narrow target, just waiting for evolution to catch up, but I'll take just about anything that works in the current situation.

 

The SARS vaccine failure just echoes attempts to make an HIV vaccine by targetting Spike. In the latter case, you end up with antibodies that overlap Spike and mutagenic areas of the epitope, which thus offer protection which is too narrowly scoped to be useful. In the former case, it seems you end up with a more aggressive virus, as you said. But there are plenty of examples of virusses that succumb to vaccines, at least to some useful extent. I see no reason why that can't be the case here, although we would best avoid innoculation with Spike components.
 



#10 Robert Magnuson

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Posted 30 March 2020 - 02:52 AM

Please see this petition at Change.org
 
 
Title: China is Resolving Coronavirus with Vitamin C Injections. Demand the Same for the USA! 

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#11 Mind

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Posted 02 April 2020 - 04:20 PM

Repeated exposure to the flu vaccine blunts immune response.

 

More reasons to question a corona virus vaccine as the be-all-end-all solution.


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#12 Daniel Cooper

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Posted 02 April 2020 - 08:56 PM

Repeated exposure to the flu vaccine blunts immune response.

 

More reasons to question a corona virus vaccine as the be-all-end-all solution.

 

It makes some sense.  Think about how immunotherapy for allergens (i.e. "allergy shots") work.  The is some substance that your body is generating an immune response to, pollen for instance.  To overcome that you repeatedly expose your body to small controlled quantities of the substance over time and your body basically learns to live with it and ceases to identify it as a dangerous foreign substance.

 

I can see how yearly influenza vaccinations might do the same thing.  After all, "in the wild" humans don't get infected with influenza every year.  Pre modern medicine that would be a pretty good way to have a short lifespan.  I wonder if in our distant past the average human could expect to have the flu even a dozen times in a lifetime.  Probably less I bet.

 

And those influenza strains have a lot of commonality.  So, some part of the vaccine is likely to be similar to other vaccines you've had in the past.  I don't see how this could fail to desensitize your immune system to that particular pathogen.

 

However, it would seem to me that there is likely specificity in this desensitization.  If you get a influenza vaccine every year, over time your immune system might get desensitized to influenza (mostly not a good thing).  But, it seems unlikely it would desensitize your immune system to all viruses.  Just those that have a high degree of similarity to what you've been repeatedly vaccinated for.

 

With respect to corona virus, nobody is being vaccinated for this family of viruses today.  If we had a vaccine for SARS-CoV-2 today, we know you'd get some immunity that would diminish with time.  So, you would likely have to have a booster periodically.  We had a study in this thread that showed immunity was pretty much gone at the 6 year mark.  Maybe you'd get a booster every four years.  And, since your chances against this virus are pretty good in your younger days, maybe we wouldn't start vaccinating you till you're 50 or maybe even 60.  So, it may be that this issue is manageable.  First vaccination at 60 with a booster every 3 or 4 years.  That's not too many vaccinations in your likely lifetime. Not so bad as getting a flu vaccine every year.

 

I know that if we had a SARS-CoV-2 vaccine today we'd give it to as many people as possible.  It would buy us a lot of breathing room.  Then we would have time to get something effective going with anti-virals or mono/polyclonal antibodies or the like.

 

​I'm not so pessimistic on a SARS-CoV-2 vaccine.  It would be a useful arrow to have in our quiver.  Maybe not the magic bullet that puts the issue to rest, but we'd certainly give a great deal to have that vaccine at this moment.

 

 


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#13 Daniel Cooper

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Posted 10 April 2020 - 03:47 PM

Regardless, if the actual fatality rate is closer to 3% in the US (which is pretty terrifying), it just means the herd immunity thing is even more absurd.

 

Tens of millions would have to die and the hospitals would be a literal hell grounds, for years, while new people are born without immunity, enroll in Kindergarten and just keep drizzling fuel on the fire pissing in the wind of "herd immunity" :-D

 

 

Yeah, you don't want to get to herd immunity by watching hundreds of thousands or millions die.

 

But, as to new people being born without immunity - we're fortunate that the death rate seems very low indeed amongst the very young.  Maybe 0.1% or lower.  So, if this becomes a seasonally circulating thing which seems pretty likely, you'll probably get it before you're a teenager and you'll almost certainly survive without too severe after effects.  Your total immunity will be limited to a few years, but after that has passed if you get it again it will be much less severe as you won't have a completely naive immune system to this virus.  So, going forward this might not be much worse than influenza.

 

The killer is that nobody has any immunity today.  Having your first encounter with this virus in your 70s is a real problem, but that is almost never going to happen once it is established in the population.

 

And we should have a vaccine up and running in a year or so.  That way the most vulnerable won't have their immune system's first introduction to this virus with the actual live virus.


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#14 gamesguru

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Posted 10 April 2020 - 04:04 PM

The killer is that nobody has any immunity today.  Having your first encounter with this virus in your 70s is a real problem, but that is almost never going to happen once it is established in the population.

 

And we should have a vaccine up and running in a year or so.  That way the most vulnerable won't have their immune system's first introduction to this virus with the actual live virus.

 

Interesting point about the newborns building immunity without much issue.  But assuming the problem goes away lol, that assumes it can be safely "established".

 

And that the vaccine will be widely distributed, or at least to the older people who need it.  And that it will be out in a timely fashion..



#15 Daniel Cooper

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Posted 10 April 2020 - 05:28 PM

Interesting point about the newborns building immunity without much issue.  But assuming the problem goes away lol, that assumes it can be safely "established".

 

And that the vaccine will be widely distributed, or at least to the older people who need it.  And that it will be out in a timely fashion..

 

It's probably true that almost every current seasonally circulating influenza and corona virus at some time in the past was a novel virus that jumped species and likely caused a lot of deaths when it initially occurred.

 

Which is not to say you just continue on as if nothing has happened with this virus.  Everyone should take reasonable precautions.



#16 gamesguru

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Posted 10 April 2020 - 11:49 PM

It's probably true that almost every current seasonally circulating influenza and corona virus at some time in the past was a novel virus that jumped species and likely caused a lot of deaths when it initially occurred.

 

Which is not to say you just continue on as if nothing has happened with this virus.  Everyone should take reasonable precautions.

 

Don't know if I'm convinced of this point.

 

It seems like lethality is something that remains constant, except perhaps over millions of years. SIV (the precursor to HIV) has a long history in primates.  The retrovirus arguably has a history dating back some 150 million years.  But it doesn't cause monkey reservoirs many side effects.

 

Compare that to smallpox which has been around perhaps 100,000 years and still killed 30% of people.

 

So if my assumption is correct, and all these respiratory diseases are relatively new (<< 1 million years),

  • rhinovirus was never lethal,
  • influenza was always somewhat lethal, and
  • the new coronavirus fits in that sweetspot between smallpox and the flu.

So yeah, I would expect the same 1-3% fatality rate across generations to come, and that there won't be any sort of immunity passed on from parent to child anytime soon.

 

It's possible aggressive diseases tend to be cyclic, either they wipe out populations or people become keen to their spread.  In the case of the 1918 H1N1 I heard it evolved itself to death or an "error catastrophe". That's might be why you see these kind of diseases popping out of animal reservoirs every few million or ten thousand years (depending on mutation rates), and then slinking back away into the dark.

 

lossy-page1-800px-Journal.pbio.1000301.g



#17 Mind

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Posted 24 May 2020 - 09:14 AM

I agree with Mercola on this point, a fast-tracked, no animal testing, is not something I will be first in line to take: https://www.lewrockw...could-go-wrong/

 

 

Over the next few years, the ASO3-adjuvanted swine flu vaccine Pandemrix (used in Europe but not in the U.S. during 2009-2010) was causally linked20 to childhood narcolepsy, which abruptly skyrocketed in several countries.21,22

Children and teens in Finland,23 the UK24 and Sweden25 were among the hardest hit. Further analyses discerned a rise in narcolepsy among adults who received the vaccine as well, although the link wasn’t as obvious as that in children and adolescents.26

A 2019 study27 reported finding a “novel association between Pandemrix-associated narcolepsy and the non-coding RNA gene GDNF-AS1” — a gene thought to regulate the production of glial cell line-derived neurotrophic factor or GDNF, a protein that plays an important role in neuronal survival.

They also confirmed a strong association between vaccine-induced narcolepsy and a certain haplotype, suggesting “variation in genes related to immunity and neuronal survival may interact to increase the susceptibility to Pandemrix-induced narcolepsy in certain individuals.”

In addition to that, there’s the research28 showing that the H1N1 swine flu vaccine was one of five inactivated vaccines that increased overall mortality, especially among girls.

The Pandemrix debacle should be instructive. No one anticipated a flu vaccine to have genetic consequences, yet it did. Now they’re proposing injecting mRNA to make every single cell in your body produce the SARS-CoV-2 spike protein. How can we possibly think that the long-term ramifications of this will be clear by September?

 


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#18 Dorian Grey

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Posted 13 October 2020 - 01:41 AM

Another one bites the dust?  

 

https://www.marketwa...1?mod=home-page

 

Johnson & Johnson pauses coronavirus vaccine trials after unexplained illness

 

Johnson & Johnson has paused clinical trials for its COVID-19 vaccine candidate after an unexplained illness by a participant  The drug maker announced Monday night that the 60,000-patient, late-stage trials have been put on hold and enrollment has been halted, citing  “an unexplained illness in a study participant.”

 

Rival AstraZeneca paused the late-stage trials of its coronavirus vaccine candidate in early September after an unexplained illness by a participant in the U.K. Regulators in the U.K., Brazil, India and South Africa have since allowed AstraZeneca’s trials to resume, though it remains on hold in the U.S. as the Food and Drug Administration has widened its investigation.

 

There are seven coronavirus candidates being tested in the U.S., with at least four moving to late-stage trials.


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#19 Dorian Grey

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Posted 13 October 2020 - 03:00 AM

Interesting write-up on the great vaccine race here: 

 

https://news.yahoo.c...-190702314.html

 

First, a Vaccine Approval. Then 'Chaos and Confusion.'

 

Interesting: "So far, AstraZeneca, Johnson & Johnson and Moderna have begun trials in the network. Novavax and Sanofi are expected to start their own phase 3 studies in the next couple of months. But Pfizer, one of the front-runners, never joined the network, opting to run trials completely on its own."

 

If this is true, Moderna & Pfizer are the only two phase 3 trials currently in motion in the USA, with AstraZeneca and J&J on hold.  Moderna has never produced a vaccine or brought a drug to market, so it looks like Pfizer is the horse to beat.  

 

https://www.fierceph...november-report

 

Pfizer urged to hold off on coronavirus vaccine until late November

 

"The experts called on Pfizer to wait until late November at least to submit its vaccine to the FDA. That would give trial investigators enough time to compile at least 2 months of safety data after participants receive their second doses. Pfizer, for its part, has said it expects to know by the end of October whether its program works."

 

YIKES!  Ready or not, here they come!  


Edited by Dorian Grey, 13 October 2020 - 03:09 AM.

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#20 Dorian Grey

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Posted 13 October 2020 - 10:18 PM

OK not a vaccine, but Eli Lilly's monoclonal antibody trial has been suspended due to those pesky "safety concerns".  

 

https://www.bloomber...safety-concerns

 

Eli Lilly Covid Antibody Trial Paused Due to Safety Concerns

 

Thought I'd post this here with the dumpster fire of vaccine SNAFU's.  

 

Old School therapeutics looking better all the time.  I WANT MY HCQ!  


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#21 Dorian Grey

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Posted 14 October 2020 - 05:13 AM

A clue!  Dirty pool?  

 

https://www.yahoo.co...-014246420.html

 

Eli Lily COVID-19 Antibody Therapy Plant Has Serious Quality Control Issues, FDA Finds: Report

 

"plant being readied to make an antibody therapy for COVID-19 has been found to have serious quality control problems by the United States Food and Drug Administration".  

 

"An “Official Action Indicated” notice was issued, which is indicative of the most serious level of violation"

 

“violations are serious enough and have a significant enough impact on the public health that something needs to be fixed.”

 

--------------------

 

Makes me wonder what might be going on in the vaccine labs.  Roll up your sleeves folks, this jab may be mandatory.  


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#22 Dorian Grey

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Posted 06 November 2020 - 08:51 PM

Uh-oh...  A public health nightmare – why a new strain of coronavirus could hamper vaccine hopes

 

https://www.yahoo.co...-192104039.html

 

Among the mink farms of the North Jutland and Zealand regions, the virus has been rampant, spreading from humans, to the furry farmed animals, then back into their handlers and the surrounding populations.  Experts have now discovered that, as the virus hopped from one species to another and back again, it has significantly mutated.

So far, they have identified five clusters of variations to its genetic code.  Crucially, some of these affect the all-important spike protein. This is the essential protein that viruses use to penetrate cells.  However, it is also the protein against which humans develop antibodies – either through vaccination or from prior infection – to fight off infection.  Danish scientists have known about the mutations for some months, but it is only this week that results from laboratory analysis revealed their sinister potential. They indicate that antibodies are less protective against these new strains of Sars-CoV-2

 

 

Even at the hugely expedited pace of research and manufacture, it would take many months to design, test and develop a supplementary vaccine to deal with the new strain, assuming it was safe and effective to do so.

The news from Denmark broke as a study by Glasgow University identified another strain, named N439K, which may also be capable of avoiding antibodies.

It was first discovered in Scotland in March, when it infected 500 people, later emerging in Romania and has now been observed in 12 countries, including Norway, Germany and the United States.

In a desperate bid to contain the Danish outbreaks, all 17 million mink in the country are now being culled.

-----------------------

High time we started a Warp-Speed outpatient therapeutic program!  


Edited by Dorian Grey, 06 November 2020 - 08:56 PM.


#23 lancebr

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Posted 14 November 2020 - 05:20 AM

So  what is everyones take on the new Pfizer vaccine that is suppose to be 90% effective?

 

I read that it is a mRNA type vaccine.

 

Would you feel comfortable taking it yourself or giving it to a family member that is considered high risk?



#24 Dorian Grey

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Posted 14 November 2020 - 07:52 AM

So  what is everyones take on the new Pfizer vaccine that is suppose to be 90% effective?

 

I read that it is a mRNA type vaccine.

 

Would you feel comfortable taking it yourself or giving it to a family member that is considered high risk?

 

This vaccine will be issued under Emergency Use Authorization and officially be "experimental" until 2 years follow-up for potential delayed adverse events.  Autoimmune issues come to mind.  Chris Masterjohn said he was worried about antiphospholipid antibodies, as coronavirus has a phospholipid membrane, which would be a fine mess.  I've seen reports 50% of COVID patients develop these antiphospholipid antibodies. 

 

https://www.medrxiv....6.15.20131607v2

 

Prothrombotic antiphospholipid antibodies in COVID-19

 

Might the vaccines create a similar problem?  Are they even looking at this issue?  

 

I'm not all that averse to getting the jab once 100 million or so folks have tried it first, but I've already seen news that "anti-vax" groups might jeopardize the program, and suppression & censorship will be needed.  Adverse events will certainly occur...  Will anyone be allowed to hear of these reports?  


Edited by Dorian Grey, 14 November 2020 - 07:57 AM.

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#25 lancebr

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Posted 14 November 2020 - 03:02 PM

This vaccine will be issued under Emergency Use Authorization and officially be "experimental" until 2 years follow-up for potential delayed adverse events.  Autoimmune issues come to mind.  Chris Masterjohn said he was worried about antiphospholipid antibodies, as coronavirus has a phospholipid membrane, which would be a fine mess.  I've seen reports 50% of COVID patients develop these antiphospholipid antibodies. 

 

https://www.medrxiv....6.15.20131607v2

 

Prothrombotic antiphospholipid antibodies in COVID-19

 

Might the vaccines create a similar problem?  Are they even looking at this issue?  

 

I'm not all that averse to getting the jab once 100 million or so folks have tried it first, but I've already seen news that "anti-vax" groups might jeopardize the program, and suppression & censorship will be needed.  Adverse events will certainly occur...  Will anyone be allowed to hear of these reports?  

 

That is what I am concerned about is being a "guinea pig" for something that they really do not know the long term effects.

 

I have read some articles where the people believe it is best to wait for a more traditional, and what they consider might

be a safer vaccine (i.e. not mRNA), that either uses an inactivated part of the virus or a very diluted part of the virus.

Are there any companies that are working on a form of vaccine like that?

 

My next door neighbor was talking about it the other day and she said that if the doctors and frontline workers are willing

to take it, then in her opinion that means it is safe.  I didn't want to argue with her about possible long term effects of

something that hasn't been tested for that long, but I notice a lot of people have the same belief that she does.

 


Edited by lancebr, 14 November 2020 - 03:17 PM.

  • Agree x 1

#26 Hebbeh

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Posted 15 November 2020 - 12:07 AM

Chris Masterjohn said he was worried about antiphospholipid antibodies, as coronavirus has a phospholipid membrane, which would be a fine mess.  I've seen reports 50% of COVID patients develop these antiphospholipid antibodies. 

 

https://www.medrxiv....6.15.20131607v2

 

Prothrombotic antiphospholipid antibodies in COVID-19

 

Might the vaccines create a similar problem?  Are they even looking at this issue?  

 

I'm not all that averse to getting the jab once 100 million or so folks have tried it first, but I've already seen news that "anti-vax" groups might jeopardize the program, and suppression & censorship will be needed.  Adverse events will certainly occur...  Will anyone be allowed to hear of these reports?  

 

I agree that I'm not particularly enthused about taking an experimental vaccine with not well understood long term potential side effects.  However, as far as the risk of antiphospholipid antibodies goes, there's obviously a definite risk of that outcome in contracting covid while the risk with the vaccine is theoretical at best.  In playing the odds of this outcome, the bookies would go with the hope of the vaccine rather than bet against the more probable known outcome of covid.  But chances are, we could be damned if we do, damned if we don't.

 

I'll probably continue to stick with N95 masks and social distancing which has served me well so far until enough guinea pigs have sufficiently survived the vaccine.  I can say that a disturbing number of co-workers including my boss have contracted covid and my N95 mask has apparently saved me even though I'm high risk at 63 and work in close contact with a large variety of coworkers daily.  Although I can't help feeling like I'm on borrowed time.  Also, the co-workers that have/had covid mostly wear either cheap basic cloth masks or surgical masks rather than the higher efficiency N95.  Also, I see them pulling their masks down a lot.  Predictable.


  • Good Point x 1

#27 Dorian Grey

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Posted 20 November 2020 - 10:10 PM

Facebook, Twitter, and Google are uniting to stop vaccine misinformation from spreading online

 

https://www.business...rmation-2020-11

 

"Canada and the UK will work with Facebook, Google, and Twitter on ways to stop misinformation about the coronavirus vaccine from spreading online".

 

"British fact checking charity Full Fact will coordinate the effort. Fact checking websites based in India, Argentina, and Spain will convene alongside the tech companies and federal representatives from the UK and Canada."

 

"Facebook will fund the effort until the group launches an initial framework in January 2021, which will "set out standards of accountability" for stopping misinformation, and come up with ways to respond to "bad information" online."

 

---------------------------

 

If this works anything like the National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program, the only adverse events allowed to be spoken of will be those similar to what was documented in clinical trials.  Any other claims of injury or adverse events not published in the trials will be censored as misinformation.  

 

Good Luck with your vaccines!  


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#28 Daniel Cooper

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Posted 22 November 2020 - 12:21 AM

Immunity to the Coronavirus May Last Years, New Data Hint

 

 

Eight months after infection, most people who have recovered still have enough immune cells to fend off the virus and prevent illness, the new data show. A slow rate of decline in the short term suggests, happily, that these cells may persist in the body for a very, very long time to come.

 

 

A study published last week also found that people who have recovered from Covid-19 have powerful and protective killer immune cells even when antibodies are not detectable.

 

 

He and his colleagues found that antibodies were durable, with modest declines at six to eight months after infection, although there was a 200-fold difference in the levels among the participants. T cells showed only a slight, slow decay in the body, while B cells grew in number — an unexpected finding the researchers can’t quite explain.

 


  • Informative x 1





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