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Advice that masks don't help for coronavirus woefully wrong?

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#211 Hebbeh

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Posted 15 October 2020 - 09:07 PM

Also take into consideration that AVERAGE age of death is pulled down by all the deaths of all ages for all reasons including accidents before entering old age. Including the deaths of everybody from infants to children to teenagers to young adults in their 20's, 30's, and 40"s. Once you get past all that and actually enter old age, you have a high probability to living well until an advanced old age and 100 is going to become more and more common.
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#212 Hip

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Posted 16 October 2020 - 01:12 PM

There is a subtilely in the average lifespan figure of 78.5 years for the USA (and 81.2 years for the UK) mentioned earlier, which as not been considered in this discussion. This average lifespan figure I believe will be an average of all lives, including people who died young because of disease or accident. Those people who died young will obviously pull the average down. 

 

But we can also ask: what is the average life expectancy of someone who has reached 75 years old? The answer is a much higher life expectancy: in the US, a person who reaches 75 can expect on average to enjoy a further 12 years of life, living to 87 on average (reference here).

 

 

 

So when calculating the years of life an elderly person loses if they are killed by coronavirus, we should not use the overall average lifespan figure of 78.5 years, but rather use the lifespan figure that specifically applies to people who are 75, which is a lifespan of 87 years.

 

Using this more specific lifespan, it means that if you are killed by coronavirus at 75, you will have lost 12 years of life.


Edited by Hip, 16 October 2020 - 01:13 PM.

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#213 Daniel Cooper

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Posted 16 October 2020 - 01:18 PM

That is correct.  The short way of stating this is that an average doesn't tell you the distribution.

 

But you guys are also making a logical error.  Non-covid deaths have a distribution.  But so do covid deaths.  You're essentially talking about a distribution of non-convid deaths versus the average of covid deaths.  If we're going to talk about this in detail, we need to see the distributions of both sides.

 

 


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#214 Mind

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Posted 16 October 2020 - 07:58 PM

Another country where there is a mask mandate and it didn't stop the spread. France.

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#215 Mind

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Posted 16 October 2020 - 08:08 PM

People keep saying that masks stopped the spread in South Korea. One can see clearly that the number of cases has nearly tripled since the early spread in March. One could make a "per capita" argument, fine, but the disease has clearly spread, in spite of the fact that South Korea has some of the most efficient/widespread contact tracing and highest mask compliance.

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#216 Hip

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Posted 16 October 2020 - 08:14 PM

You're essentially talking about a distribution of non-convid deaths versus the average of covid deaths. 

 

I don't see why non-COVID deaths are necessary to examine. Perhaps you could explain?



#217 Daniel Cooper

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Posted 16 October 2020 - 08:22 PM

I don't see why non-COVID deaths are necessary to examine. Perhaps you could explain?

 

 

Well, we're talking about deaths per decade bin.  If you want to talk about how many years dying from covid may or may not take off, you'd want to look at the distribution relative to age at death.  If the average age of a covid mortality is 78, and the average life expectancy is 78.5, and the age distributions are similar then you would probably conclude that on average covid isn't shortening too many lives.  If on the other hand the age distributions were very different you might reach a different conclusion.

 

All I know for sure is that I expect that the distributions for the very young (say less than 30) between covid deaths and all deaths will certainly look very different.  But on the other hand, those younger ages should be weighted much lighter in the average.  If the age distributions for older ages (say 50 and above) are similar, I don't think you are seeing the 10 ~ 12 year shorting that the Glasgow paper suggests.



#218 Mind

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Posted 16 October 2020 - 08:26 PM

People keep misrepresenting the situation in Sweden.

 

The health authorities looked at the initial data and found that this was essentially an age-related disease so they adopted a "light" response. Most schools stayed open. Most businesses stayed open. No mask mandate. Limit gatherings to less than 50 people, etc.

 

They set out to protect the elderly and other vulnerable populations, while allowing it to spread among those whose mortality rate is extremely low for this particular respiratory disease.

 

They failed to keep the virus out of nursing homes and they admitted this failure. This led to a larger death rate than some neighboring countries. This has been common in many countries and states - nursing homes have been hit hard.

 

Otherwise the plan seems to have worked. Still no mask mandate. Most of Swedish society is still open and for three months the mortality rate is very close to zero. If masks were the only way to stop the virus and it is incredibly deadly, then Sweden should be in chaos, with overwhelmed hospitals, and mounting deaths. Just the opposite is occurring in Sweden as of now

 

You can find a lot of videos from Sweden showing normal life. Makes one wonder about the hysteria in the rest of the world. 



#219 Daniel Cooper

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Posted 16 October 2020 - 08:44 PM

People keep saying that masks stopped the spread in South Korea. One can see clearly that the number of cases has nearly tripled since the early spread in March. One could make a "per capita" argument, fine, but the disease has clearly spread, in spite of the fact that South Korea has some of the most efficient/widespread contact tracing and highest mask compliance.

 

The fallacy of saying that "South Koreans have a high mask compliance rate, and covid deaths are much less common in South Korea, therefore masks prevent covid deaths" is that you are implicitly assuming that the only difference between South Koreans and the rest of the world is mask wearing, which is certainly not true.  That doesn't make the previous statement false, but it does mean you should look at the other differences to see if they are playing a role.  

 

What might those other differences be?  Well, population genetics for one.  It has certainly been the case in other infectious diseases that some populations are inherently more or less resistant to the infectious agent.  Sub Saharan Africans are more resistant to the effects of the malaria parasite than Europeans, because they have evolved in an area where malaria is endemic.  Indigenous Americans were extremely susceptible to smallpox. Koreans are genetically distinct to some extent from other populations of humans. It's possible that some of those differences give them some innate immunity to the virus.  Indeed, many of the Asian countries are faring much better. But, mask wearing is a part of the culture in many (but not all) Asian countries, so it is difficult to separate out.  It would be nice if someone looked at the Asian societies where mask wearing was not a part of the culture and do a comparison.

 

What else?  It's possible that a sufficiently similar but less lethal version of covid has been circulating in that population in prior years, giving them some measure of acquired immunity.  There is precedence for this.  In the 1918 Influenza Pandemic, China was notably spared (and they certainly were not wearing masks then). Some epidemiologists believe that a similar earlier strain of H1N1 had been circulating in China for some years which gave the population very good acquired immunity.

 

So there are other things that can explain South Korea.  The problem is that nobody has looked at them very well.

 

Maybe it's the masks.  Maybe it's not.


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#220 Daniel Cooper

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Posted 16 October 2020 - 08:51 PM

People keep misrepresenting the situation in Sweden.

 

The health authorities looked at the initial data and found that this was essentially an age-related disease so they adopted a "light" response. Most schools stayed open. Most businesses stayed open. No mask mandate. Limit gatherings to less than 50 people, etc.

 

They set out to protect the elderly and other vulnerable populations, while allowing it to spread among those whose mortality rate is extremely low for this particular respiratory disease.

 

They failed to keep the virus out of nursing homes and they admitted this failure. This led to a larger death rate than some neighboring countries. This has been common in many countries and states - nursing homes have been hit hard.

 

Otherwise the plan seems to have worked. Still no mask mandate. Most of Swedish society is still open and for three months the mortality rate is very close to zero. If masks were the only way to stop the virus and it is incredibly deadly, then Sweden should be in chaos, with overwhelmed hospitals, and mounting deaths. Just the opposite is occurring in Sweden as of now

 

You can find a lot of videos from Sweden showing normal life. Makes one wonder about the hysteria in the rest of the world. 

 

 

To your point, a few months back nearly half of the deaths in the state of New York had been in nursing homes.  And that only counted deaths that had actually occurred in the nursing home.  People that caught the virus in the nursing home, then been moved to a hospital where they subsequently died were not counted as "nursing home deaths".  So surely the true percentage of nursing home deaths was even higher.

 

In my own county, the death toll was very low until the end of June when it suddenly started to shoot up.  What had changed? Covid had found it's way into a number of nursing homes and was running rampant.



#221 Mind

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Posted 16 October 2020 - 09:00 PM

In the beginning, I was swayed by the mask argument, because it seemed like common sense, but it is often the case reality conflicts with common sense. I see the virus spreading in most countries around the world with mask mandates, even in Japan and South Korea. In my state, the spread did not ramp up until a month AFTER the mask mandate went into effect.

 

The CDC did not recommend masks in the beginning because of the lack of RCT studies proving their effectiveness: https://www.bmj.com/...t/369/bmj.m1422

 

It seems just this year, using short term data, some health officials flipped on the advice of wearing masks.

 

One can clearly see that various masks can trap a percentage of small particles containing viruses. N95 masks are verified to block up to 95 percent of particles over 3 microns. I think the trouble with masks is reality (the "spherical cow"). All people do not have well-fitting masks. All people do not wear them properly all day long. People constantly touch their masks. They take them off and put them back on several times a day. In addition, the masks are not perfect collectors of viral particles. What happens when a lot of aerosols build up on the mask and someone coughs, sneezes, or talks loudly? Viral aerosols become dislodged and flow in both directions. Over the course of an 8 hour day (think of school kids, factory workers, etc...) the viral particles are still going to spread to some degree, even in the case of N95 masks.

 

If masks were the key to preventing pandemic spread, one would think humans would have easily and conclusively discovered this before this past Summer. Viral pandemics have existed throughout human history. If general face coverings were effective, it would have been known centuries ago and there would never be pandemics. Masks are better now, of course, but current data around the world reveals obvious limitations....and then there is Sweden, where there is no mask mandate and no hysteria.


Edited by Mind, 17 October 2020 - 10:28 AM.

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#222 Florin

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Posted 16 October 2020 - 09:49 PM

The fallacy of saying that "South Koreans have a high mask compliance rate, and covid deaths are much less common in South Korea, therefore masks prevent covid deaths" is that you are implicitly assuming that the only difference between South Koreans and the rest of the world is mask wearing, which is certainly not true.  That doesn't make the previous statement false, but it does mean you should look at the other differences to see if they are playing a role.  

 

What might those other differences be?  Well, population genetics for one.  It has certainly been the case in other infectious diseases that some populations are inherently more or less resistant to the infectious agent.  Sub Saharan Africans are more resistant to the effects of the malaria parasite than Europeans, because they have evolved in an area where malaria is endemic.  Indigenous Americans were extremely susceptible to smallpox. Koreans are genetically distinct to some extent from other populations of humans. It's possible that some of those differences give them some innate immunity to the virus.  Indeed, many of the Asian countries are faring much better. But, mask wearing is a part of the culture in many (but not all) Asian countries, so it is difficult to separate out.  It would be nice if someone looked at the Asian societies where mask wearing was not a part of the culture and do a comparison.

 

What else?  It's possible that a sufficiently similar but less lethal version of covid has been circulating in that population in prior years, giving them some measure of acquired immunity.  There is precedence for this.  In the 1918 Influenza Pandemic, China was notably spared (and they certainly were not wearing masks then). Some epidemiologists believe that a similar earlier strain of H1N1 had been circulating in China for some years which gave the population very good acquired immunity.

 

So there are other things that can explain South Korea.  The problem is that nobody has looked at them very well.

 

Maybe it's the masks.  Maybe it's not.

 

Yes, there are certainly other factors at play besides masks such as early contact tracing and quarantines, early international travel shutdowns, voluntary lockdowns, and perhaps a less virulent strain of the virus in Asia, but the question to ask is what pandemic mitigation strategy is the common among Asian countries that probably had the most impact and can be easily used everywhere else? Genetics and mild immunity seems too speculative to consider at this point. So, the only factor that's left is a high amount of mask wearing (I know of no country in Asia with a low amount of it). Maybe a more virulent strain of the virus will overwhelm masks, but maybe it won't. Until there's definitive evidence, we don't want to place Russian roulette. And if the current kinds of masks will indeed be overwhelmed, the only solution would be more effective masks and even respirators.


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#223 Florin

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Posted 16 October 2020 - 10:18 PM

Sweden is significantly suckier compared to South Korea and Taiwan in nearly every way (deaths, cases, voluntary lockdown, and GDP). The reason I mentioned Taiwan is that it did very little voluntary lockdown, unlike Sweden or SK; you can have your cake and eat it too, if everyone wears masks.

 

Deaths per million

https://ourworldinda...pickerSort=desc

 

Cases per million
https://ourworldinda...pickerSort=desc

 

Voluntary lockdown, Sweden

https://ourworldinda...WE&region=World

 

Voluntary lockdown,South Korea

https://ourworldinda...OR&region=World

 

Voluntary lockdown, Taiwan

https://ourworldinda...WN&region=World

 

GDP

https://ourworldinda...try=SWE~KOR~TWN

 


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#224 Florin

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Posted 17 October 2020 - 12:35 AM

Another country where there is a mask mandate and it didn't stop the spread. France.

 
If masks for some reason (more virulent strain?) won't work in France, they should just switch to respirators. They've have plenty of time to stock up. If not, well, they'll just need to learn their lesson the hard way.
 

People keep saying that masks stopped the spread in South Korea. One can see clearly that the number of cases has nearly tripled since the early spread in March. One could make a "per capita" argument, fine, but the disease has clearly spread, in spite of the fact that South Korea has some of the most efficient/widespread contact tracing and highest mask compliance.

 
That's a molehill, not a mountain.
 

In the beginning, I was swayed by the mask argument, because it seemed like common sense, but it is often the case reality conflicts with common sense. I see the virus spreading in most countries around the world with mask mandates, even in Japan and South Korea. In my state, the spread did not ramp up until a month AFTER the mask mandate went into effect.

 
Molehill.

 

Probably low compliance. 
 

The CDC did not recommend masks in the beginning because of the lack of RCT studies proving their effectiveness: https://www.bmj.com/...t/369/bmj.m1422
 
It seems just this year, using short term data, some health officials flipped on the advice of wearing masks.


While RCTs are nice, if you don't have them (because the experts were too dumb to run a few of them), you need to use common sense and whatever other imperfect evidence you have. Plus, you don't need RCTs to know that respirators are almost certainly capable of eliminating any pandemic.

 

The WHO did sort of recommend cloth masks in case of a pandemic last year, so the flip-flopping was a lot worse than it seems.
 

One can clearly see that various masks can trap a percentage small particles containing viruses. N95 masks are verified to block up to 95 percent of particles over 3 microns. I think the trouble with masks is reality (the "spherical cow"). All people do not have well-fitting masks. All people do not wear them properly all day long. People constantly touch their masks. They take them off and put them back on several times a day. In addition, the masks are not perfect collectors of viral particles. What happens when a lot of aerosols build up on the mask and someone coughs, sneezes, or talks loudly? Viral aerosols become dislodged and flow in both directions. Over the course of an 8 hour day (think of school kids, factory workers, etc...) the viral particles are still going to spread to some degree, even in the case of N95 masks.

 

I've addressed most of these theoretical concerns before. And if that's not enough, N100s exist. Still not enough? Increase ventilation. There have been no outbreaks on packed airlines which have only cloth mask requirements but plenty of ventilation.

 

Unless you start beating the hell out of your respirator, reaerosolization is unlikely to be a concern. Masks block droplets but not most aerosols.

 

The face touching argument wins the prize for being one of the dumbest arguments ever made. A mask of any kind will prevent you from touching your mouth and nose. And if you're super paranoid, goggles or a face shield will prevent eye touching. But fomite transmission is low and hand washing eliminates it even if it wasn't.

 

If masks were the key to preventing pandemic spread, one would think humans would have easily and conclusively discovered this before this past Summer. Viral pandemics have existed throughout human history. If general face coverings were effective, it would have been known centuries ago and there would never be pandemics. Masks are better now, of course, but current data around the world reveals obvious limitations....and then there is Sweden, where there is no mask mandate and no hysteria.

 

If X worked, it would have already been invented! Worst argument ever?

 

Sweden still sucks.


Edited by Florin, 17 October 2020 - 12:36 AM.

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#225 Danail Bulgaria

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Posted 17 October 2020 - 12:51 AM

....

If masks were the key to preventing pandemic spread, one would think humans would have easily and conclusively discovered this before this past Summer. Viral pandemics have existed throughout human history. If general face coverings were effective, it would have been known centuries ago and there would never be pandemics. Masks are better now, of course, but current data around the world reveals obvious limitations....and then there is Sweden, where there is no mask mandate and no hysteria.

 

It is actually discovered long before the past Summer. In whatever official medical book you look up, there is written all the same - masks for prevention of airborn pathogens. This has been known in the medicine at least from the 70's. Most probabbly much earlier.

 

And again ... the masks as prevention does not conflict with the reality arround me. So far noone arround me, who is strict with masks and face shields has been infected.


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#226 Mind

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Posted 17 October 2020 - 10:42 AM

It is actually discovered long before the past Summer. In whatever official medical book you look up, there is written all the same - masks for prevention of airborn pathogens. This has been known in the medicine at least from the 70's. Most probabbly much earlier.

 

And again ... the masks as prevention does not conflict with the reality arround me. So far noone arround me, who is strict with masks and face shields has been infected.

 

This is not the case everywhere. CDC reports people who got sick (symptomatic), 85% reported wearing masks often or always. "Always" was 70%. https://www.cdc.gov/...wr/mm6936a5.htm

 

6 people close to me have caught the virus (and I know of many others in and around my community/work).

 

2 of them wore masks religiously and both had moderate symptoms (fever, shortness of breath, etc).

1 wore a mask sometimes and had no symptoms.

2 of them did not wear masks very often and had moderate symptoms.

1 did not wear a mask and was asymptomatic.

 

That is my anecdotal report.


Edited by Mind, 17 October 2020 - 10:47 AM.

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#227 Mind

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Posted 17 October 2020 - 11:54 AM

 

Molehill.

 

 

 

I am not arguing about large or small, I am just pointing out that it continues to spread in the vast majority of countries of the world. In some countries the spread has been dramatic and much greater than before mask mandates. In some it has been smaller. It is undeniable that it continues to spread in most of the world.

 

Low compliance? Sure. "Spherical Cow". If everyone had a gas mask and hazmat suit and lived in a level X clean room, no virus would spread (and we would all die from the decimation of economic activity)

 

The world is diverse. A lot people do not want to live in a "health" dictatorship. Responsible and effective leaders find positive ways to deal with the diversity of the population.

 

Considering that vitamin D3 is safe, cheap, and RCT proven to provide significant benefits in COVID patients, it should be more touted than masks - IMO.


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#228 Mind

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Posted 17 October 2020 - 11:57 AM

"Dark days ahead for Europe" https://www.independ...y-b1095624.html

 

Except in Sweden where they do not have a mask mandate and they are living life as normal.



#229 Danail Bulgaria

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Posted 17 October 2020 - 04:36 PM

This is not the case everywhere. CDC reports people who got sick (symptomatic), 85% reported wearing masks often or always. "Always" was 70%. https://www.cdc.gov/...wr/mm6936a5.htm

 

6 people close to me have caught the virus (and I know of many others in and around my community/work).

 

2 of them wore masks religiously and both had moderate symptoms (fever, shortness of breath, etc).

1 wore a mask sometimes and had no symptoms.

2 of them did not wear masks very often and had moderate symptoms.

1 did not wear a mask and was asymptomatic.

 

That is my anecdotal report.

 

85% reported wearing masks, but was that true? In a quastionaire I can claim everything, and lie deliberately or not.

 

Your anecdotal report really is different. Now it comes the question the quality of their filters, and how correctly the mask has been fitting the face.

 


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#230 Florin

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Posted 17 October 2020 - 06:28 PM

This is not the case everywhere. CDC reports people who got sick (symptomatic), 85% reported wearing masks often or always. "Always" was 70%. https://www.cdc.gov/...wr/mm6936a5.htm

 

Actually, it says the opposite of what you're implying; people who take their mask off to dine at restaurants or are exposed by others who take their mask off to dine have a higher risk of testing positive for SARS-CoV-2. This clearing shows that in the absence of sufficient supplies or respirators, mask mandates are still needed because the maskless can still infect the masked.

 

I've mentioned this before.

 

https://www.longecit...ndpost&p=899211


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#231 Florin

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Posted 17 October 2020 - 06:41 PM

I am not arguing about large or small, I am just pointing out that it continues to spread in the vast majority of countries of the world. In some countries the spread has been dramatic and much greater than before mask mandates. In some it has been smaller. It is undeniable that it continues to spread in most of the world.

 

Low compliance? Sure. "Spherical Cow". If everyone had a gas mask and hazmat suit and lived in a level X clean room, no virus would spread (and we would all die from the decimation of economic activity)

 

The world is diverse. A lot people do not want to live in a "health" dictatorship. Responsible and effective leaders find positive ways to deal with the diversity of the population.

 

Considering that vitamin D3 is safe, cheap, and RCT proven to provide significant benefits in COVID patients, it should be more touted than masks - IMO.

 

No one said that masks were perfect, just a lot better than going maskless. Yeah, it continues to spread but even where the spread is higher (if that's really the case since tests are probably more readily available than they were before), deaths haven't gone thru the roof like they did in the first wave.

 

Low compliance (even when "always" wearing a mask) is one proven cause of increased infection risk as the CDC study clearly states. Another more speculative cause is herd immunity.

 

Spherical cow? Maybe, but that's what you get for not being prepared and having enough respirators to go around.

 

And by the way, are there any RCTs of gas masks and hazmat suits? Just curious.


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#232 Hebbeh

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Posted 19 October 2020 - 04:28 PM

https://www.mirror.c...worlds-22864690

 

Sweden 'to start lockdowns' as it has world's 12th highest Covid-19 death rate

 

But according to the Johns Hopkins University, which measures worldwide data on the pandemic, the country now has the 12th highest death rate in the world, with 58.4 per 100,000 people.

 

This is 10 times the figure in neighbouring Norway and Finland, although slightly lower than the UK's 64.1 per 100,000.

 

Johan Nojd, who heads the infectious diseases department in the city of Uppsala, told  The Telegraph : "It's more of a lockdown situation - but a local lockdown."

 

From tomorrow, health authorities are reportedly set to ask people to stay away from shopping centres, gyms, libraries and museums.

 

 

People keep misrepresenting the situation in Sweden.

 

The health authorities looked at the initial data and found that this was essentially an age-related disease so they adopted a "light" response. Most schools stayed open. Most businesses stayed open. No mask mandate. Limit gatherings to less than 50 people, etc.

 

They set out to protect the elderly and other vulnerable populations, while allowing it to spread among those whose mortality rate is extremely low for this particular respiratory disease.

 

They failed to keep the virus out of nursing homes and they admitted this failure. This led to a larger death rate than some neighboring countries. This has been common in many countries and states - nursing homes have been hit hard.

 

Otherwise the plan seems to have worked. Still no mask mandate. Most of Swedish society is still open and for three months the mortality rate is very close to zero. If masks were the only way to stop the virus and it is incredibly deadly, then Sweden should be in chaos, with overwhelmed hospitals, and mounting deaths. Just the opposite is occurring in Sweden as of now

 


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#233 Mind

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Posted 19 October 2020 - 06:11 PM

If the mask mandates continue to correlate with higher infection rates, it might end up being the case where the CDC, UN, and WHO reverse their advice on masks, like they recently reversed their position on lockdowns: https://www.msn.com/...hod/ar-BB19TBUo

 

As noted earlier, places with mask mandates in the U.S. have higher rates of spread: https://twitter.com/...120362137542656

 

Just another pre-hysteria take on some of the problems with masks: https://www.bmj.com/...t/369/bmj.m2003

 

 Austria, where masks are required when shopping, a higher spread is now occurring.

 

 

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#234 Mind

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Posted 20 October 2020 - 05:13 PM

For whatever reason, the vast majority of countries that adopt a mask mandate, experience rapid spread of the disease. Sometimes within a couple of weeks, sometimes months later. Costa Rica is another one.

 

Interesting to note that Costa Rica was mentioned early in the year as a success story. They were using HCQ more often and the death rate was much lower than countries not using the drug. Lately, after the mask mandate went into effect, the cases and deaths have risen dramatically.

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#235 Florin

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Posted 21 October 2020 - 06:51 PM

For whatever reason, the vast majority of countries that adopt a mask mandate, experience rapid spread of the disease. Sometimes within a couple of weeks, sometimes months later. Costa Rica is another one.

 

Interesting to note that Costa Rica was mentioned early in the year as a success story. They were using HCQ more often and the death rate was much lower than countries not using the drug. Lately, after the mask mandate went into effect, the cases and deaths have risen dramatically.

 

There's no compliance data, and the weak link of Costa Rica's (and perhaps a lot of other countries') mask mandate is that indoor dining is still allowed. If masks aren't worn in high-risk situations, the virus will spread a lot faster.

 

Costa Rica's cases started to increase around the start of June but the mask mandate started on June 27th. So obviously, the mask mandate was a reaction to increasing cases, not a cause.

 

If HCQ was so effective in Costa Rica, why has it lost its effectiveness recently? The rise in deaths suggests that either patients are refusing HCQ against the advice of their doctor or HCQ isn't so effective. In fact, other countries and entire regions that have mask mandates and aren't using HCQ are doing better than Costa Rica.

 

https://www.centrala...-in-costa-rica/

https://awesomecapit...e-for-covid-19/

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Edited by Florin, 21 October 2020 - 07:16 PM.

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#236 Florin

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Posted 21 October 2020 - 08:40 PM

As noted earlier, places with mask mandates in the U.S. have higher rates of spread: https://twitter.com/...120362137542656


The spread was probably already high before the mask mandates. For instance, the spread exploded in Texas way before it mandated masks.
 
https://masks4all.co...-require-masks/
https://covidactnow....us/tx?s=1178286
 
 

Just another pre-hysteria take on some of the problems with masks: https://www.bmj.com/...t/369/bmj.m2003


We already know all of those problems aren't real, because they haven't cropped up in any of the early, high-compliance Asian countries.
 

Austria, where masks are required when shopping, a higher spread is now occurring.


Austria loosened its mask mandate on June 15 and re-tightened it on July 15 after cases shot up. I haven't seen any compliance data though, and places like bars and restaurants might still be a problem.

 

The lower death rate compared to the start of this pandemic in Austria, Europe, and the US is another possible indication that masks are worth wearing.

 

https://www.usnews.c...e-limit-in-bars
https://www.reuters....s-idUSKCN24M1UX
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#237 Florin

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Posted 21 October 2020 - 09:31 PM

The Czech Republic implemented a strict mask mandate early and avoided the worst at the start of the pandemic, but after loosened the mandate during the summer like Austria, cases and deaths exploded.

 

What should have happened in the Czech Republic and everywhere else is that during the months following the lockdowns, respirators should have been manufactured and distributed to everyone. Ignoring the need for respirators before the pandemic was really dumb, but continuing to do so even now is 10X more idiotic.

 

https://www.cnn.com/...intl/index.html

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Edited by Florin, 21 October 2020 - 09:40 PM.

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#238 Mind

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Posted 23 October 2020 - 03:21 PM

 

 

Costa Rica's cases started to increase around the start of June but the mask mandate started on June 27th. So obviously, the mask mandate was a reaction to increasing cases, not a cause.

 

That is probably true about the reason the mask mandate was implemented in Costa Rica, but like many other states and countries, the spread continued and got worse after the mandate. In Costa Rica's case, they continue to have a high rate of spread even months after the mandate went into effect.



#239 Mind

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Posted 23 October 2020 - 03:43 PM

Hear is one neurologist speculating about the negative effects of wearing a mask for too long - mainly speculating about chronic low oxygen. Video: 

 

Partial transcription: https://m.facebook.c...100011389044151

 

Masks might cause people to re-breathe some of their breath, but obviously don't block various gases like oxygen.

 

Here is a response to the low-oxygen argument where tests were done and there was hardly any drop in blood oxygen levels: https://www.usatoday...ion/3698536001/

 

I don't think I feel negative effects, except when I wear the N95 mask too long.

 

I don't think there are problems with short term use, but I am a little worried about kids wearing them for 8 hours a day (in school/elsewhere), and perhaps months or years of their lives, depending upon the local jurisdiction.



#240 Hebbeh

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Posted 23 October 2020 - 06:00 PM

In regards to the ridiculous and unfounded anti mask comments and opinions we keep hearing that masks are dangerous or masks cause some mysterious problem, many and I repeat many jobs have required workers to wear masks and respirators for +8 hours per shift for years and for entire careers. Ask a coal miner what happens when he doesn't wear his masks. Or ask a coal fired power plant worker what happens when he doesn't wear his mask (besides being fired). Or ask industrial asbestos abatement workers what happens when they don't wear their mask. Or a sheet rock finisher. Or any construction job in high dust and contaminant environment. Or surgical doctors and nurses. I could go on and on. Various industries and careers require respirator and mask compliance for entire shifts and entire careers for a reason. And this has been the case for out entire lifetime. Research what happened to the old time coal miners before modern masks were available. You could ask them but they're all dead now.
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