209 replies to this topic

[DukeNukem]

Bruce, the "mission of ImmInst is to conquer the blight of involuntary death" is patently absurd. How does ImmInst possibly hope to conquer involuntary death? Seriously? What steps are in place to make the mission statement something even slightly more than laughable hype?

Maybe de Grey can make this claim, but how can this little discussion forum play a meaningful role? Anyone who reads this mission statement will look around and see no tangible effort to back it up, and therefore dismiss this place as a joke. Instead, maybe ImmInst can legitimately claim to spread knowledge that death is not inevitable -- but I do not see its role in actually making death voluntary. Someone needs to take a get-real pill. ;-)

This whole "institute" is riddled with such positioning problems. It's very clear to me -- someone who's been deeply involved in positioning, branding, marketing and running a company for 20 years -- that ImmInst has branded itself incorrectly, and this will continue to hold back this group until someone gets a clue.

Or, maybe being obscure and non-essential is the real goal of this place?

[Bruce Klein]

Well, this is not a summer project, Duke ;-) I'm confident our members realize we're taking a longer-term approach to solving the problem of involuntary death. It's also worth mentioning that aging is not the only cause of death...

What other positioning problems do you see?

[DukeNukem]

Bruce, just stopping by quickly, and to answer your question would take a little time. The key thing is this: Do not make claims that are easily dismissed or obviously hyperbole. And that's the lead-off problem with the mission statement. I've always dismissed it as a joke, but I still like this place because of it's members. I have no allusion that ImmInst plays any meaningful role in conquering death.

I've also stated before that this place is misnamed. It's not an institute, nor should it be associated with the kooky idea of immortality. I *never* recommend this site to anyone, simply because the word immortality would paint me as a weird-o. The one time I did recommend this place in a forum, I got murdered with cackles, and so I tucked my tail and learned my lesson. Never again. This place has the wrong image with that name, and will remain small-time until the name is changed.

More when I get time...

[Bruce Klein]

Duke, a few years ago, I felt a bit ashamed as well... but is our willingness to bend to mainstream expectations really a long-term advantage? I think Reason has a good point with the Advance of the Suitable Outrageous Extreme.

Quote: The middle of the road, "reasonable" position in public or political debate tends to gravitate to midway between what are perceived to be the two opposite outrageous extremes, regardless of the actual merits of any of these positions.

With this in mind, it is occurring to me that part of the ongoing problem in the modern political debate over healthy life extension is that our "outrageous extreme" has always been a tentative, reasonably proposal that medical research carry on and that near-term technology would seem to allow us all to live a little longer ... say, to 150.

[Bruce Klein]

Harold, to be clear, what in our message sounds like sheer lunacy?

Also, what benefit does ImmInst gain by relinquish our roll as the Suitable Outrageous Extreme? And, should ImmInst start competing with other more moderate life extension organizations after we've invested more than four years establishing ourselves as the extreme?

Again, I feel this topic would benefit from membership input...

[DJS]

Duke

My first comment is that the Declaration of Principle #1 is not written for the layman, it is scientific gooble-de-gook, that makes this place look like nerds-ville.

I thought that the first DoP was right on the money. Yes Duke, our message needs to be optimized -- optimized for the scientifically literate (ie, "nerds").

[Mind]

We discussed this a bit in the public memespace thread. Despite the fact that everyone has it in their mind that Imminst attracts wackos....there are not many here...very very few in fact.. I am extremely pleased with the mix of young and old, expert and novice, student and teacher, etc... I find some very good conversations going on here.

Aubrey said the word "immortality" on 60 minutes and no one laughed. Kurzweil mentions living forever quite frequently in interviews. I am uneasy about retreating into the crowded "soft" memespace, just when it seems like our philosophy is gaining momentum.

Still, I would be in favor of putting a "science & media" front page in place, with some sort of DoP (nice work so far Prometheus). And maybe changing the motto from "for infinite lifespans" to "for indefinite lifespans". These are simple things we can do, like a facelift, without having to give up the mission, and without having to change the name. Also, I like the fact that the Institute owns the search term immortality on google. I would hate to give that prime space up to wackos and snake oil salesman. We worked too hard for it.

[jaydfox]

To any reasonable person the concept of immortality is suggestive of much more than the extension of lifespan and healthspan. To "conquer the blight of involuntary death" virtually connotes the bestowment of deistic powers.

True, and Aubrey covered this, and I suggest we reread it:
http://www.imminst.o...=pid&pid=113014

We need to:
1) put more focus on the shorter term, scientifically aimed projects and principles, via the DoP's and other means. Put other things front and center, if we need to.
2) Come up with a better strategy for clarifying the three potential definitions of immortality, which of the three we stand for, etc. While individual members of ImmInst may support Aubrey's third definition (divine intervention), I think as an institute we should distance ourselves from it.

We don't need to abandon "immortality", since, as Aubrey says, we can't anyway. We "own" it, as far as Google is concerned. But we don't truly "own" it yet, and we need to learn to.

[stephen]

Looks like we're re-debating the discussion of our target market (like the meme-space thread). I have strong opinions on that subject (which I've already shared), so I'll avoid rehashing those.

Design comments:

1. I like the DoP. It's good to have this front-and-center. I think it's well worded for the layman in its current form. Nice job!

2. "Immortality Institute DoP #1" is clunky. If there is no visible "#2", you shouldn't have a "#1" added to the end. "Immortality Institute" is redundant -- it's already plastered all over the page. I don't even know if you need to title this AT ALL. Its purpose is rather intuitive.

3. The watermarked DNA strand obscures the text. Either lighten the watermark, move it to the side more, or remove it.

4. Much better design! Less empty space, which makes it look less amateurish.

5. On the other hand, HIGH concentration of information. This bothers me... I find myself ignoring website forum portals that have too much info. It's just overwhelming. I just search for the "forum" button and ignore all the little tiny type. Not sure how to remedy this given #4, though.

It's good that we're thinking about this and working on it!

[Live Forever]

I am just now looking at this thread, and I like the new design. Perhaps there should be a place to display the latest blog entries or something, if the blog software is ever put in? I like hoe Betterhumans has theirs, but that type of setup would probably not be feasible here because there is so much other stuff to display, but a small area might work?

Just a random thought..

[doug123]

You guys have some cash saved up, right? Determined to save lives? It would be SO easy to out do LEF in no time if you guys did it right.

Thoughts:

The bottom line is you guys should get the most you can from your equity on the search engine market. There are ways to do this without compromising the Institute or its mission. The mission of ImmInst is to stop involuntary death, right? You guys could do much more with your equity on the Internet to achieve this goal in much shorter order if you had your own line of products and services to offer your members.

The mission is fine; the mission statement, however, could be re-worked.

The Immortality Institute: For Infinite Lifespans sounds like it might be a cult group.

If you are *determined* to keep the name and the mission as it is, that's fine...however...you might consider splitting off the health fora and renaming that sub group -- and use it to generate revenue for the Institutes's greater goal.

From what I hear, it appears that most new visitors find their way toward real interest in life extension through the health "supplement/nootropic" fora; you guys have mentioned previously that the nootropic forum has caused more problems that any other forum (maybe because you have "crazy" and "unstable" dudes like me and Edward hanging around it too much...) [:o]

Offer Full Members members health care services in the health fora (and beyond!): blood testing, an optional health insurance plan, discounts on dietary supplements, with a centralized marketing approach. Break off the supplement fora (much like Mind and Muscle and Avant Labs split the same forums and IP into two separate communities) and call the new community something like the ImmInst Institute for Life Extension and Nootropic research. That way, you can still work ImmInst into the name of the place; and folks who want to can easily ignore the ImmInst part if they don't want to learn more about Immortality.

[doug123]

The reason I mention your $ is because you guys could use the little cash you do have to make more $. You guys could start as simple as bottling 40kg of L-carnosine into bottles of 90 500mg capsules. The raw material cost would be at most $9,600 (if you use the most reliable and expensive source that I know of). Each bottle of 90 500mg capsules could be sold for $26 and would undercut Jarrow, etc.

90 * 500mg = 45 grams per bottle = ~888 bottles at 40 kg

888*$26 = $23,088

There is also the 80,000 empty capsules, 888 empty bottles, cost of labor of a cGMP encapsulation at an FDA registered facility...and you still need to figure out who will sell the finished product...and maybe ask Pete for assistance in management of the supplement division?

Just thoughts. My figures on L-carnosine could be inaccurate.

[Bruce Klein]

Posted per Jones Murphy's suggestion:

Sent: Monday, June 26, 2006 8:47 PM
To: Cryonics_Institute@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Cryonics_Institute] Re: Immortalist Society name change

Has the thought of keeping IS's corporate name the same, but changing the
name of The Immortalist magazine been considered?  Changing the name of The
Immortalist magazine should satisfy those who think it is a PR  problem. 

Changing the corporate name of IS will create extra work, such as  filing
the name change with the IRS, changing the name on the bank account,
purchasing
new envelopes, and making changes on all IS computer documents.  Most of
these things would not be required if the name of IS stayed the same and
the name of the magazine was changed. 

For what it is worth, I have been working here for over 20 years and have
not had any member or interested person say to me that the words "Immortal
or Immortalist" have offended them. 

Andy

In a message dated 6/24/2006 2:08:29 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
ettinger@aol.com writes:

[stephen]

Offer Full Members members health care services in the health fora (and beyond!): blood testing, an optional health insurance plan, discounts on dietary supplements, with a centralized marketing approach.

My very first exposure to immortality was via LifeExtension. I thought "Hey! This is exciting. I've always dreamed about immortality, and there's an established group out there that has a magazine! Fabulous!"

I didn't examine it too carefully, but went ahead and purchased a membership / magazine subscription. When I received my first issue, I was shocked! All of the "articles" read like late-night infomercials pumping LEF's various supplements. What I thought would be on the order of Scientific American for immortalists was little more than an advertising vehicle for a supplements company.

I've seen you post this idea a few times, nootropikamil, and I'm sure it's a good, sound business idea. I just don't know if the market needs another LEF. If there's a need for another supplement company -- then someone should do it. And they should be solely focused on profits. I'm not sure if that's in line with our goals.

[zoolander]

lets not forget that this is a not-for-profit business.

[eternaltraveler]

i agree with moving toward a more scientific orientation. This could and should still include cryonics, AGI, and SENS type approaches.

[doug123]

Don and I have been PMing a lot recently, and in the last PM, he happened to ask me what my agenda is. That's a pretty good question.

I REALLY would like to go to school and be able to focus more on my coursework; I enjoy learning and am frustrated that even assisting in management of a small (well, tiny) supplement company somehow distracts my little brain from getting the grade I want in a simple introductory econometrics course. In my last two quarters at UCSD, I have only managed to take a single course per quarter; it's pretty sad that I haven't performed particularly well in either one (I'm an undergraduate btw).

I want to return to school knowing that I did the most I could to advance nootropic and life extension research. It does not seem that complicated to do this, and I can see this group achieving what I envisage (I love that word) quicker and more efficiently than any other I know of.

LEF is a great organization, and I probably sounded grandiose with my earlier comment. They charge $75 for a years' membership. Here the cost is $50/yr...but what does ImmInst offer its members in exchange -- and is it equivalent to 2/3 what LEF offers its members? What do ImmInst members' dues achieve that is in line with ImmInst's mission? What if an individual is debating joining ImmInst or LEF and only has $75? Let's assume that individual also takes supplements...they would probably think...well, that's $25 towards my first bottle of LEF product. I'm not saying this as a criticism, but just to point out untapped potential. Edit: I have seen the Institute's movie and it is definitely the greatest achievement in my opinion. I have not really investigated the latest book; I should...

A non profit organization that is also an educational institution can raise its own funds too. And donate them to causes it sees fit; or maybe ImmInst could re-invest in technologies to benefit the membership.

There are currently about 200 full members of the Institute. I can see that figure doubling very quickly if, say, members could get discounts on supplements such that they would be cheaper (by even a dollar or two per bottle) than anywhere else. A monthly on-line magazine whose focus would be the latest breaking updates in life extension research (as elrond mentioned: cryonics, AGI, and SENS), possible nootropic therapies, various health oriented topics (exercise, diet, etc), editorials possibly from members of the forums, etc. could attract an audience so large ImmInst would need to buy 10 new servers to keep up with the traffic.

The L-carnosine price stuff I posted above as a simple model anyone could understand to raise capital. There are many ways to do the same thing. However, the fastest way is sometimes not the best way to achieve the optimal outcome to have the best long term effect...

I am just typing stuff off the top of my head.

Edited by nootropikamil, 27 June 2006 - 04:26 AM.

[zoolander]

They are great ideas Adam. Don't stop what you are doing. You are contributing with ideas and that is important. Regardless, you are putting in.

I think that the discount supplement ideas is a good one. For us though, as an educational institute, I think providing access to journals at a discount yearly rate is something that may get us some more members.

[brizzadizza]

I like the mock-up for the most part. I think the DoP looks out of place and is poorly worded but I'm at a loss for a better wording. You need some more forum information in the right hand column to take up some of that empty space, maybe active threads type stuff, I don't know the feasibility of that.

Has a new thread been set up to discuss fundraising activities for Imminst? I saw the memespace thread and I know one was called for in that thread, but has anyone started writing one?

How about as an alternate mission statement "To generate funding for scientific research in life extension." If that were the mission statement it demonstrates a clear goal and it sounds pretty mainstream, you could sell that kind of idea to millions of geriatrics. Adam already mentioned a monthly magazine idea, we could sell advertising space to generate income and create our own grant programs to disseminate those funds. Once again, Dr. Mercola has successfully captured the attention of many thousands of old people with nothing more than a slick newsletter. In addition the new mission statement allows for an actual method by which we can "conquer the blight of involuntary death." We would fund research programs that pursue research in keeping with the Imminst goals.

Brandon

[Bruce Klein]

Harold, "Society for Biological Immortalism" may alienate many who see biology as only a start.

Also, the current homepage, which includes the Institute's name and mission at top, still looks to me as finding the best balance...

While creating a DoP (voted on by members) looks to be a good idea, rather than creating a rotating banner (which may confuse first time viewers as to our mission, and could become old to long-time members), may be done better by simply creating a link to a DoP list.

However, I do like the double column layout which now includes more updated Articles and Forum topics which tends to give the Institute a more academic feel.

[doug123]

Here is a version without the DoP banner and a minimalistic logo.

http://www.imminst.o...1642_no_dop.php

Dude, that new front page is totally KICK ASS. Much more colorful, first off; attractive to the eye for sure. Maybe just eliminate any comment from the header...not "for infinite lifespans" or "society for biological immortalism" -- my suggestion would be to keep it simple with the current ImmInst logo and the url.

Instead of a monthly on line magazine; maybe alternate topics that would have the latest articles, linked from the front page. Maybe they could be updated monthly?

I've got to get going soon, but there is some serious banner space on the side columns I'd like to point out. Obviously it would be a bad idea to have the wrong (eg porno and other spam) or too many banners...but you could add at least 2-4 banners without cramping the style too much...and other affiliates too.

Like I mentioned previously; the supplement stuff is just an idea to get more members and make some cash for the Institute. Most of the traffic comes through (initially) the supplement forum; so implications...you guys should at least release a multivitamin/mineral formula (maybe) called the Immortality Mix. One single product would even be enough to get many people to join.

Regardless, if ImmInst wishes to grow, you might consider offering members more...

If the attachment is too large, feel free to remove it.

Attached Files

•  Banner.JPG   209.81KB   1 downloads

[Mind]

Along the lines of reformatting the front page, here is something.

One thing I have grown accustomed to is the Imminst logo. I like its sybolism and the artwork is great. The only problem is that the top of the hourglass looks more like an alien head than and hourglass with sand. Maybe it is something I can work on myself. I would like to see a more realistic-looking hourglass held within the olive branches. I think this fits in with my previous "facelift" post. Small changes to enhance our look and feel. Making the site better without completely changing the mission or name.

[stephen]

One thing I have grown accustomed to is the Imminst logo. I like its sybolism and the artwork is great. The only problem is that the top of the hourglass looks more like an alien head than and hourglass with sand. Maybe it is something I can work on myself. I would like to see a more realistic-looking hourglass held within the olive branches. I think this fits in with my previous "facelift" post. Small changes to enhance our look and feel. Making the site better without completely changing the mission or name.

Seconded. To me it look vaguely like a superhero cowl for the owlman guy in The Watchmen. Love the idea, though.