209 replies to this topic

[Bruce Klein]

Adam, you seem to be saying two things at once... that immortality is mainstream but that laypeople are not going to understand ImmInst?

[Live Forever]

I know, I'm just a lowly basic member .. but is it an option to have multiple sites for different audiences? Or is this detrimental to credibility?

There are already a variety of sites that have the "watered down" approach to helping people extend their lives. I don't think that us becoming another one (or trying to fit the mold of them) would do a whole lot to broaden our message. I was in no way advocating another site, just that the benefits of doing that far outweigh the benefits from changing the Immortality Institute into one of those types of sites. You can see the previous threads for the reasoning behind this. (the ability for others to attack us for "changing our message", the alienation of the people who currently make up membership, the time and effort it would take to reinvent would be equal to creating a new site therefore getting the benefit of both, etc. etc. etc.)

The philosophical approach here is not really as radical as you make it seem. In my view, Immortality is already a pretty mainstreamable idea.

I think so too, but it seems many think it is not palatable to a majority (or even a sizable percentage) of people. I am glad to see you agree on this point.

If you desire to achieve this goal in short order, disregarding the appeal of the front line message will only hurt your chances at achieving your goal. So what is more important: achieving the goal itself or talking about how extreme our ideas are in comparison to others?

I believe it is possible to do both, the example of Aubrey giving 5,000 year lifespans is given as an example. He seems to be doing fairly well achieving his goals (arguably better than probably he or most would have thought a few years ago) while still pushing the extreme. It is possible (and perhaps more beneficial) to work towards both.

What is the goal? To achieve Immortality or to worry about ensuring that ImmInst caters to the "Suitable Outrageous Extreme?"

My personal goal (and I think the goal of most here) is to extend my life, and the lives of others as much as possible, through whatever means necessary, as long as they do not harm others. (looking at a recent thread, some might not agree with the last part of that statement, after the comma) I suppose this is already known, however, so the question should then be "What is the best way to accomplish the goal?", which is what we are now discussing. As the example I gave above about Aubrey illustrates, sometimes the best way to accomplish your goal is through the "Suitable Outrageous Extreme".

[doug123]

I'm suggesting that laymen who have been conditioned by today's modern media need an anchor similar to those used to catch their interest. I don't currently have a TV in my apt. and haven't for the last couple of years, so marketing something to me is quite different than the layman. From the little TV I watch, it seems a police car chase is the most compelling content for a layman.

Really though: what does "Just do it" have to do with a shoe? Absolutely nothing! But it catches interest with Nike's product and does not scare people away from looking at the shoe.

The product to market now is extended lifespan. Immortality would be great; however, we won't achieve this tomorrow given our current technologies. So you need a credible anchor that can create further investigation between extended lifespan and Immortality to draw an audience....

just thoughts. I got to get going.

[Mind]

Most people in this thread seem to be saying the same thing....we can/should present a better look to the site (and other outreach efforts) without having to give up on the mission or try to completely hide who we are. Given the thirst for anti-aging products out there, I know there are a lot more people worldwide who are in our memespace. Our challenge is to reach them. These are the people we want. People who are motivated to live indefinitely. Sure it would be great to have millions of paying members(general population) from a money standpoint, but I think it would be better to have a few thousand dedicated full members who can articulate the philosophy, promote/participate in research, and intelligently lead us forward.

[DJS]

Placing emphasis on marketing is great, as long as we remember that we're not selling sneakers.

[DJS]

ImmInst.org
Life GOOD, Death BAD

[lol]

Again, I don't believe there is anything wrong with incorporating clear and concise scientific wording into DoPs or any other message statements.

NASCAR and the Jerry Springer show aren't our target demographic.

[Live Forever]

NASCAR and the Jerry Springer show aren't our target demographic.

True, I don't think I could frequent the forums if they degenerated into what I see in other forums.

[Bruce Klein]

Harold: Bruce, let me put it to you this way, do you have any sense of urgency on the problem of aging?

Absolutely!

Harold: Because it appears to me that there is a sense of indulgence here (perhaps you are convinced that an AGI will solve the problem).

I am convinced that AGI is the most leveraged tool I can help advance in order to solve the problem of aging. I've recently posted the projects which Novamente is currently focused on to help biomedical research as it relates to life extension.

Harold: If you are concerned then you should be agreeing with me that we need to engage and resonate with academics and scientists.

I'm quite ready to advance the Institute's academic network, which is building on our existing work done via the conference, film and book... which included the participation of a number of scientists such as:

Michael Rose, Ph.D.
Aubrey de Grey, Ph.D.
João Pedro de Magalhães, Ph.D.
Michael D. West, Ph.D.
Robert A. Freitas Jr., J.D.
Raymond Kurzweil, Ph.D.
William Sims Bainbridge, Ph.D.
Marvin Minsky, Ph.D.
Brian Wowk, Ph.D.
Martine Rothblatt, Ph.D.
Csoka, Antonei B., Ph.D.
Goertzel, Ben, Ph.D.
Hanson, Robin, Ph.D.
Hartl, Michael D., Ph.D.
Heward, Chris, Ph.D.
Hughes, James J., Ph.D.
Hurlbut, William B., M.D.
More, Max, Ph.D.
Peter Passaro, Ph.D.
Perry, Michael R., Ph.D.
Smigrodzki, Rafal M., M.D., Ph.D.
Ralph C. Merkle, Ph.D.

[doug123]

From our discussion of differences there can come a greater variety of solutions and more thorough testing of possible methods.

It seems there is no disagreement that we all want to live for as long as possible. We should be only be limited by what technologies we can access to extend our lives.

I'm actually surprised to see folks like Bruce, Mind, and other folks who worked so hard to build the Institute to what it is today with such open minds towards possible alternatives.

I have a great idea: how about a two sided shirt...one side asks "Got life?" The other side could say: "Then why die?" Just another idea.

If I could see the stats of how many individuals already have "no problem" accessing or affording modern health care and a only a very small portion fit into the "problem" category, I would be much more relaxed discussing supplements and such without feeling like I could be misleading readers.

It is very important for us all to have access to modern health care. It would be great if an anonymous poll could tell us exactly how many US members of these forums are already members of an HMO or PPO (I say US because many other countries have government subsidized heath care or may be too small of a group) -- or can somehow afford to pay MDs out of pocket. I often encounter individuals in the nootropic forum (in particular) that are uninsured or too broke to go to a professional to assess a possible health condition and are hoping to find a solution to ADD/ADHD, depression, OCD, "motivation" etc. through non qualified dudes like me.

I think a wonderful goal would be able to offer members seriously concerned about their general heath and well being easy access to modern medicine. From a quick assessment, even at a discount group rate, access to modern medicine through an HMO or PPO would cost each individual approximately $200-500 per month. Not everyone can afford this cost; but ensuring members are able to procure access to modern medicine could have a larger impact on the lifespans of the members -- perhaps more than any single move. Citizens of the United States have easy access to many different opportunities in education and workforce to allow them access to health care; I find that many individuals whom choose not to purchase health insurance are assuming they won't need to see a doctor or go to a hospital for care...having regular checkups with a physician can, in many cases, prevent life threatening illnesses or detect and remove problems before they start (through immunization etc)...oh, and the bills without insurance in the US...are astronomical.

An "ImmInst group health plan" might cause problems with liability because a doctor/patient relationship might go sour...therefore a PPO would be required so the choice of doctor would be the patients choice -- still there are liability issues if the relationship goes sour. As the forum grows, it might be a good idea to have a third party affiliated with ImmInst that can offer such services to interested members. Otherwise, we'd be forced to offer a cut corners plan and us forum "experts" taking the role more appropriately suited to a physician. Also, it may draw a huge membership by accentuating and emphasizing, as Prometheus has strongly emphasized, the importance of "duty of care" to members of this forum.

If members do not have access to health care services, we might be forced to offer them ways to check for problems by offering discounted access to blood testing...but even then, if there is a real problem, the individual would need to see a licenced doctor to assess and treat the case.

Just thoughts.

[Bruce Klein]

Harold: Who would be alienated? We only have 200 full members. Whats is our rate of growth -- 10% in the last year?

Our one year growth rate is about 100% in that last year at this time we had around 100 members... we're growing at about 9 new Full Members/mth and currently have 213 paid-up Full Members.

[doug123]

NASCAR and the Jerry Springer show aren't our target demographic.

No, visitors of these forums seem to be people who are concerned with maximizing their lifespan and enhancing quality of life. No one wants to die or age. They just might not know how any of their actions might influence what most fear most of all -- death.

[Bruce Klein]

Harold: Most of our traffic is associated with nootropics and has nothing to do with anti-aging at all.

As Adam (nootropikamil) has said, nootropics has been an important topic for reaching a number of new members.

[doug123]

Yes, but that's also partly a search engine factor.

Everyone wants to be smarter and live longer. The concept of Life Extension and the possibility of "enhancing cognition" come from the same instinct and are both out of fear of losing life or perception. No one wants to die, or lose their ability to perceive clearly the world around them.

In experience with selling these purported life extension products and nootropics to consumers there is at least 75% cross over. However, in my very limited experience, 75% of folks searching the web for nootropics tend to be affected by a real "disorder" (by disorder, I mean these individuals might find better therapies with prescription meds rather than supplements). The nootropics could help them maybe after they have straightened out if they really have a "problem" or not. The nootropics seem to be much more effective at preventing loss of cognition rather than enhancing it dramatically (at least at this point of development). It seems the "Real Nootropics" will come with more Advanced AI technologies.

But that's besides the point, sorta. We want to live longer, and better. Let's "do it" as Nike would say.

[Athanasios]

Our one year growth rate is about 100% in that last year at this time we had around 100 members... we're growing at about 9 new Full Members/mth and currently have 213 paid-up Full Members.

Wow, I am impressed with the current rate of subscription. I would agree on minimal change in representation of the organisation. The mock page looks wonderful. I dont like the sidebar on the left too much, but it is fine if there isn't much content to replace it with. Just my opinion, and I am rather inexperienced with this type of thing unless I am in full control, if that makes sense.

[Bruce Klein]

Good point, Adam. The concept of Life Extension and the possibility of "enhancing cognition" are interrelated in most people's mind.

[Bruce Klein]

Thanks for supporting ImmInst as a Full Member, cnorwood19.

[doug123]

Hey! My moody alter ego is currently a full member!

[doug123]

They might be at work, or sleeping. The MDs and PhDs I know don't really have the time to browse Internet Forums. However, they might look here in the future if we employ or extol the importance of the use of their products and/or services; or they could write articles and such -- and we could even pay them.

[zoolander]

I can count 2 people on that list that you would consider active members.

[doug123]

We just need the right connection between nootropics and life extension...easy! It's called love. Love cures all. Is it obvious I am a deadhead or what?

[Bruce Klein]

How many of the above are active members of Imminst? Why are they not here?

They are "here" in terms of their support of the Institute... and are ready to help when we have projects for them.

[Bruce Klein]

In fact there are three and they are all Advisors - Aubrey, Brian and Peter Passaro (did Peter have his doctorate recently conferred Bruce?). Peter has not been active for some time though.

Whoops.. Passaro's PhD was a mistake! He may have it now... but I haven't asked. Sending email now.

[zoolander]

What is the GRG mailing list?

just for the record, I am in the lab as we speak doing research but I am also here. I am waiting for a chemical reaction to finish running.

Alot of the time when I am in the lab I read research papers. These days most of the computers that I collect my data on are connected to the internet so instead of reading research papers whilst I work and waiting for reactions to run I contribute here.

I'm sure that Doctors have lunch breaks and down time between appointments.

I know one person here who owns a few biotech businesses. This person is here on a regular basis.