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Regarding the vaccines, I think this is a question we All should be asking as members of a longevity-promoting website.

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#241 Advocatus Diaboli

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Posted 24 January 2022 - 01:14 AM

Re: post #240

 

Sorry, Hip, the onus is on those who discount her work (the specific one in question) to provide cogent reasons for having done so. Hint--ad hominem doesn't refute anything.

 

 


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#242 Hip

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Posted 24 January 2022 - 01:31 AM

Re: post #240

 

Hint--ad hominem doesn't refute anything.

 

I disagree. We often look at the reputation of a person to judge the quality of their work. If you need to get a tricky complex surgery done, you would be advised to look into the reputation of the surgeon before you go ahead.


Edited by Hip, 24 January 2022 - 01:32 AM.

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#243 Advocatus Diaboli

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Posted 24 January 2022 - 01:35 AM

Sorry, Hip. There are only 4 normed division algebras, not 5 as you suggest in post #242.


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#244 Daniel Cooper

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Posted 24 January 2022 - 01:37 AM

Re post #238

 

Daniel Cooper, so after your having read the study, what, specifically, were your main objections, if any? And, for your objections, what references of corroboration can you cite?

 

(For those who may be interested, please note that no mention of glyphosate was made in the study.)

 

No, I haven't read that particular study.

 

But I have read a lot of her papers. And after reading the nth one that linked glyphosate yet some other problem, I started to discount her positions.

 

Now, this may be the one paper where she's done valuable work and come to reasonable conclusions, but if so that will be the first. I honestly will go back and read this paper and see what it says.

 

But one of the hallmarks of a medical kook is that they latch onto either one cause, or one solution, and everything can be linked back to their pet cause or solved by their pet solution.  You've got AIDs? Glyphosate. IBS? Glyphosate. Dandruff? Glyphosate. The heartbreak of psoriasis? Glyphosate. Dr. Seneff certainly seems to fall into this camp, even if this paper doesn't call out her favorite boogeyman.

 

The other flavor of kook would look at each of those conditions and suggest that the cure is "colloidal silver" or "miracle mineral solution" or some equally dubious cure all.  After all, why shouldn't one single compound or protocol fix widely divergent medical issues? Isn't that how things work in this world?

 

I think it's proper to be skeptical of someone after you've seen these sorts of long standing patterns.

 

On the other hand, if I see Mercola cite some paper, I don't get to discount it just because he likes it. Even a blind squirrel finds a nut now and then and his support of some otherwise seemingly valid research in no way invalidates it.


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#245 Hip

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Posted 24 January 2022 - 02:02 PM

Sorry, Hip. There are only 4 normed division algebras, not 5 as you suggest in post #242.

 

I don't quite follow your mathematics humor, though I did have a passing interest in quaternions years ago when I had a functioning brain. I lost my ability to understand complex mathematics when I developed ME/CFS, a consciousness-reducing disease. It's amazing how higher consciousness is necessary to understand maths, but is not so necessary to understand medical science.

 

I can understand medical and biological concepts, but when my reduced-consciousness brain tries to grapple with concepts from mathematics and physics, it exhausts my brain, it stretches my brain beyond its abilities, and within 5 minutes I am too mentally fatigued to continue reading, so have to put the physics book down. 

 

I would say though that if you come from a mathematical or physics background (which was my first degree), it can take time to adapt to medical science, which operates in a different way to the hard science of physics and the pure logic of mathematics.

 

It took me many years to adapt to reading medical science, instead of reading my favorite subjects of mathematics, physics, and the the philosophy thereof.

 

 

There is much more black and white certainty when it comes to mathematics, because the logic which underpins mathematics is such a solid framework, and the number of parameters or variables involved in a given equation or theorem are small. 

 

Whereas with medical science, you are trying to understand biological systems which have thousands if not millions of parameters (genes, messenger molecules, epigenetic factors, external factors such as toxins, pathogens, gestational conditions, etc), and there is no equation which can encompass all of these. So when you try to sift truth from falsity in the medical or biological sciences, it often relies on a sort of intuition that you develop over the years.

 

As you know, mathematicians develop intuition over time, and this helps mathematicians solve the great unproven theorems. But intuition in medical or biological sciences is different type of intuition.

 

I would much prefer to discuss mathematics and physics, but (a) I no longer have the ability, and (b) I have had to switch to medical science in order to try to treat the disease I have.


Edited by Hip, 24 January 2022 - 02:06 PM.


#246 Gal220

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Posted 25 January 2022 - 12:25 AM

More testimony from DoD whistle blowers on increases in cancer, miscarriages, and neurological conditions - LINK

 

Taken from the recent Senate testimony - LINK

 

Really sick to hear of data being deleted out the DoD databases(5:09:39)


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#247 DanCG

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Posted 25 January 2022 - 02:52 AM

 

 

. So when you try to sift truth from falsity in the medical or biological sciences, it often relies on a sort of intuition that you develop over the years.

 

 

There is much truth to this. It would be nice if we always had clear data to provide a definitive answer to every question, but we don’t, and we never will. So, yes, intuition has its place in how we evaluate information. It is also true that our intuitions can mislead us. We also have to humbly recognize that others have also developed intuitions over the years. From the outside, it is hard to tell an informed intuition from a bias. This distinction is hard to make even with deep introspection. It would be arrogant to say, “I have intuitions that are usually right, whereas others only have biases, which are usually wrong.”


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#248 Hip

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Posted 25 January 2022 - 03:20 AM

We also have to humbly recognize that others have also developed intuitions over the years. From the outside, it is hard to tell an informed intuition from a bias. This distinction is hard to make even with deep introspection. It would be arrogant to say, “I have intuitions that are usually right, whereas others only have biases, which are usually wrong.”

 

People may have developed and honed their intuitions if they have spent many years or decades studying a subject, or having deep interest in a subject. If they have not been focused on that subject, then they will have neither knowledge of it or intuition. That of course is just stating the obvious.

 

When it comes to this COVID pandemic, the areas of study pertaining to this pandemic are: virology, immunology, chronic disease, and mathematical modeling. 

 

I spent the last 15 years reading medical science related to my virally-triggered, immunologically-mediated chronic disease of ME/CFS. So I can say that I have a bit of knowledge and some intuition in these fields. Prior to that, I was rather ignorant about medical science.

 

Now I know that these areas are not of much interest to the average Longecity reader, because most longevity enthusiasts do not really appreciate how viruses and the immune system likely play a key role in lifespan and healthspan. So virology and immunology are not a natural areas of interest on this forum (they should be, but they are not). Thus there is not much expertise on Longecity in the subjects relevant to the COVID pandemic.

 

In spite of the lack of expertise, and the lack of a developed intuition, I see people on this forum with very strong opinions on pandemic matter. Well, it's never a good thing when people who know little about a subject are so opinionated. But that seems to be the story with the whole of the pandemic: people with strong and often angry opinions, yet not knowing the first thing about the subjects on which they opine.

 

 


Edited by Hip, 25 January 2022 - 03:28 AM.

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#249 DanCG

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Posted 26 January 2022 - 12:58 AM

 

Thus there is not much expertise on Longecity in the subjects relevant to the COVID pandemic.

 

In spite of the lack of expertise, and the lack of a developed intuition, I see people on this forum with very strong opinions on pandemic matter. Well, it's never a good thing when people who know little about a subject are so opinionated. But that seems to be the story with the whole of the pandemic: people with strong and often angry opinions, yet not knowing the first thing about the subjects on which they opine.

Say what you will about the intuitions, or lack thereof, of your fellow participants at LongeCity, I am inclined to show some respect for the intuition developed by medical researchers and doctors who treat patients even if I am not personally familiar with all of the evidence and experience that went into the forming of their opinions.


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#250 Mind

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Posted 28 January 2022 - 11:26 PM

I cannot look at the data out of Israel and say the phrase "the COVID injections are stopping the pandemic". It just is not happening in Israel. The exact opposite is happening. They are now in their 4th wave which is about 5 times worse (caseload) than the 3 prior waves - more cases than all of the past waves PUT TOGETHER!. The death rate has now recently spiked higher than the previous wave in August/Sept of 2021.

 

The only thing that might be assumed is that the injections are lowering the mortality rate, HOWEVER, if we don't have fine-grained data on prior infections and natural immunity, then we cannot say for sure that it is the injections that have produced the lower mortality rate.


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#251 Mind

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Posted 28 January 2022 - 11:44 PM

Why is Pfizer intervening to prevent the release of their trial data? This is an FDA/government issue. There are requirements for transparency. A judge ordered the release of the documents. Pfizer is trying to prevent the release. This does not look good.


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#252 Hip

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Posted 29 January 2022 - 12:47 AM

I cannot look at the data out of Israel and say the phrase "the COVID injections are stopping the pandemic". It just is not happening in Israel. The exact opposite is happening. They are now in their 4th wave which is about 5 times worse (caseload) than the 3 prior waves - more cases than all of the past waves PUT TOGETHER!. The death rate has now recently spiked higher than the previous wave in August/Sept of 2021.

 

The only thing that might be assumed is that the injections are lowering the mortality rate, HOWEVER, if we don't have fine-grained data on prior infections and natural immunity, then we cannot say for sure that it is the injections that have produced the lower mortality rate.

 

There was a massive spike in positive test results in Israel in January. But that was because they changed their testing policy.


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#253 DanCG

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Posted 29 January 2022 - 09:10 PM

Take a look at this interesting data set from Scotland. The whole world may not be like this yet, but I think it shows the direction in which we are all heading. Table 14 shows that the vaccines are not merely failing to prevent infection, they are actually enhancing it. The unvaccinated have the lowest case infection per 100,000 population during every week covered by the report, from Dec.18.2021 to Jan.14, 2022. We know from UKHSA data that this trend has been going on for some time, going back to the Delta variant.

Until now, though, there had been a clear benefit of vaccination in protecting against hospitalization or death. Not so anymore. Table 15 shows that boosting (3 doses total) still protects against hospitalization. (Of course, any booster shot is likely to be relatively recent and the protection will diminish with time. See Fig 6 UKHSA.) Otherwise the rate is higher (or statistically at least as high) for vaccinated vs. unvaccinated. Table 16 shows similar results for protecting against death: 2 doses of vaccine is clearly not beneficial, maybe even counterproductive.

All of this certainly undermines any rationale for vaccine passports or mandatory vaccination. In the age of omicron, getting vaccinated or boosted does more harm than good with respect to spreading the disease, and any protection to the individual from hospitalization or death will be short-lived.

 


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#254 DanCG

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Posted 29 January 2022 - 09:30 PM

There was a massive spike in positive test results in Israel in January. But that was because they changed their testing policy.

Nice slight of hand by the Reuters “fact checker”. The number of identified cases skyrocketed but only because more testing was being done, not because the vaccines were failing to stop infection.

Of course the logic behind this must be that the newly identified cases WOULD NOT HAVE EXISTED were it not for the extra testing. As if the cases were called into existence by the test.

Of course the results really mean that cases were widespread, but the old testing regime was failing to detect them.


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#255 qge

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Posted 31 January 2022 - 04:22 PM

Comprehensive investigations revealed consistent pathophysiological alterations after vaccination with COVID-19 vaccines

 

Alterations in clinical laboratory measurements after vaccination

 

scRNA-seq revealed dramatic alterations in gene expression of almost all immune cells after vaccination

 

Most common changes in multiple immune cell subtypes revealed increases in NF-κB signaling and decreases in IFN-α/β responses

 

Vaccination-induced inflammatory responses in monocytes.

 

 

 Our study postulates that it is imperative to consider the potential long-term impact of vaccination to certain medical conditions or to general human health.

 

 

https://www.nature.c...-3#article-info


Edited by qge, 31 January 2022 - 04:23 PM.

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#256 Mind

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Posted 31 January 2022 - 08:52 PM

I am increasingly disturbed by the absolute refusal by the CDC to look into the thousands of possible deaths due to the COVID injections - not even some very obvious cases.

 

Populations were sold a lie about the safety and efficacy of the COVID injections. Many people are not forgetting this.


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#257 DanCG

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Posted 04 February 2022 - 02:01 AM

Comprehensive investigations revealed consistent pathophysiological alterations after vaccination with COVID-19 vaccines

 

...

 

 

https://www.nature.c...-3#article-info

This study was featured at Thailand Medical News. The summary there, like this one here, fails to mention that the vaccine being studied was

Inactivated SARS-CoV-2 Vaccine (Vero Cell) (China Biotechnology Group Corporation)”, not any of the nucleic acid vaccines that are the most widely used.


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#258 geo12the

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Posted 04 February 2022 - 04:23 AM

mRNA vaccines for longevity? Study shows Moderna vaccine reduces DNA methylation age by 3.9 years:

 

"vaccination significantly reduced principal component-based Horvath epigenetic clock estimates in people over 50 by an average of 3.91 years for those that received Moderna"

 

read here.

Longitudinal study of DNA methylation and epigenetic clocks prior to and following test-confirmed COVID-19 and mRNA vaccination
Alina PS PangAlbert T. Higgins-ChenFlorence ComiteIoana RaicaChristopher ArboledaHannah WentTavis MendezMichael SchotsaertVarun DwarakaRyan SmithMorgan E. LevineLishomwa C. NdhlovuMichael J. Corley
Abstract

The host epigenetic landscape is rapidly changed during SARS-CoV-2 infection and evidence suggests that severe COVID-19 is associated with durable scars to the epigenome. Specifically, aberrant DNA methylation changes in immune cells and alterations to epigenetic clocks in blood relate to severe COVID-19. However, a longitudinal assessment of DNA methylation states and epigenetic clocks in blood from healthy individuals prior to and following test-confirmed non-hospitalized COVID-19 has not been performed. Moreover, the impact of mRNA COVID-19 vaccines upon the host epigenome remains understudied. Here, we first examined DNA methylation states in blood of 21 participants prior to and following test confirmed COVID-19 diagnosis at a median timeframe of 8.35 weeks. 261 CpGs were identified as differentially methylated following COVID-19 diagnosis in blood at an FDR adjusted P value <0.05. These CpGs were enriched in gene body and northern and southern shelf regions of genes involved in metabolic pathways. Integrative analysis revealed overlap among genes identified in transcriptional SARS-CoV-2 infection datasets. Principal component-based epigenetic clock estimates of PhenoAge and GrimAge significantly increased in people over 50 following infection by an average of 2.1 and 0.84 years. In contrast, PCPhenoAge significantly decreased in people under 50 following infection by an average of 2.06 years. This observed divergence in epigenetic clocks following COVID-19 was related to age and immune cell-type compositional changes in CD4+ T cells, B cells, granulocytes, plasmablasts, exhausted T cells, and naïve T cells. Complementary longitudinal epigenetic clock analyses of 36 participants prior to and following Pfizer and Moderna mRNA-based COVID-19 vaccination revealed vaccination significantly reduced principal component-based Horvath epigenetic clock estimates in people over 50 by an average of 3.91 years for those that received Moderna. This reduction in epigenetic clock estimates was significantly related to chronological age and immune cell-type compositional changes in B cells and plasmablasts pre- and post-vaccination. These findings suggest the potential utility of epigenetic clocks as a biomarker of COVID-19 vaccine responses. Future research will need to unravel the significance and durability of short-term changes in epigenetic age related to COVID-19 exposure and mRNA vaccination.


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#259 Alphalifestyle

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Posted 04 February 2022 - 01:09 PM

Any known strategies & precautions that can be taken to reduce the risk of adverse effects?

 

I have the impression, that most adverse effects related to the COVID-19 vaccines, wether that be the mRNA vaccines or the vector vaccines, are either due to immune system overreaction / hyperinflammation or due to blood clotting. Therefore I was thinking that these precautions could be taken:

1. Keep as much distance between the vaccinations as possible to give the immune system a rest. At least 3 month, better 6 month +.

2. Supplement with Vitamin D and B12, as I read that many people who had severe sideeffects later found out, that they were deficient in one of the two.

3. Avoid sugar and follow a healthy diet in the days before and after the vaccination, as I also read that the vaccine can elevate your blood sugar levels

4. Drink alot of water

5. Take  anti-inflammatory supplements like curcumin & Vitamin C

6. Take natural blood thinners like pycnogenol & natto

 

Would you agree with my ideas? Did I leave out anything important?

 

Best regards!

 


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#260 DanCG

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Posted 06 February 2022 - 01:48 AM

mRNA vaccines for longevity? Study shows Moderna vaccine reduces DNA methylation age by 3.9 years:

 

"vaccination significantly reduced principal component-based Horvath epigenetic clock estimates in people over 50 by an average of 3.91 years for those that received Moderna"

 

 

Very interesting study. Thanks for posting it. There is lots of data here, and a lot to think about.

 

Before anyone starts thinking of seeking a Moderna shot hoping to get an anti-aging benefit, it is important to consider the details. The “over 50” part of that quote from the Abstract implies that there is a different result for people under 50. Sure enough, the results are explained more fully in section 2.6:

 

"Exploratory analyses stratified by vaccine brand suggested that those over 50 years of age that received Moderna mRNA vaccination significantly reduced epigenetic age estimates based on PCHorvath1 by an average 2.75 years and PCHorvath2 by an average 3.91 years following complete vaccination (Fig.7a,b). In contrast, we observed no significant differences in epigenetic age estimates for people under 50 that received Moderna and for both those under and over 50 years of age that received Pfizer (Fig.7a,b,g,h). Whether these stratified results relate to Moderna vaccine containing a higher dose (100 micrograms) compared to Pfizer (30 micrograms) will need further examination."

 

So the answer to ‘mRNA vaccines for longevity?’ depends on how old you are as well as which vaccine. There is no benefit for the under 50 crowd.

 

Here is another interesting finding:

 

The Abstract says:

 

"Principal component-based epigenetic clock estimates of PhenoAge and GrimAge significantly increased in people over 50 following infection by an average of 2.1 and 0.84 years. In contrast, PCPhenoAge significantly decreased in people under 50 following infection by an average of 2.06 years."

 

The Discussion has this to say about that result:

 

"COVID-19 might serve as a hormetic stress in non-hospitalized younger individuals, while it serves as a toxic stressor in older adults or any severe case."

 

So, if you are under 50, you might get a benefit from infection, so long as it is not severe enough to land you in the hospital. Of course everyone wants to stay out of the hospital anyway, but here is another reason why. It doesn’t say this clearly, but I presume their “pre-infection” cohort had not been vaccinated. Hmm, maybe we should be thinking of other ways to keep younger people out of the hospital.


Edited by DanCG, 06 February 2022 - 01:50 AM.

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#261 qge

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Posted 06 February 2022 - 01:49 PM

So For DNA age :

 

Over 50 Vaccination

Under 50 Infection


Edited by qge, 06 February 2022 - 01:56 PM.


#262 Mind

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Posted 08 February 2022 - 12:35 AM

At first all the women who were experiencing pregnancy and menstruation problem post-injection were banned from social media. Then many months later the CDC acknowledged it was true that the injections affected the ovaries (but women were told to not worry about it). Now there is a claim that all of the pregnant women in the Pfizer trial lost their babies. Not sure what to think of it. There were 238 pregnancies where "no outcome" was provided. The person writing the article assumes all the babies were lost. That is not necessarily the case, but why is there missing data? Anyone have any additional info on this topic?


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#263 Mind

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Posted 09 February 2022 - 11:03 PM

In a recent Pfizer financial outlook they are warning investors that clinical trial or safety data from the mRNA injections might derail their earnings in coming quarters. Maybe this is why they are pressuring the FDA to not release their study data. Some might recall that a whistleblower revealed shoddy work during the Pfizer clinical trials.


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#264 Mind

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Posted 14 February 2022 - 06:50 PM

A good retrospective on the development of the COVID injections. Never before has a drug or vaccine with unknown long-term side effects been injected into more than half of the world's population in the less-than-a-year. Phase III trials for any vaccine would normally wrap-up after about 5 years, but sometimes as long as 10 years. If developers were following the normal process of approval, the earliest these injections should be judged as safe and effective would be 2024!!

 

We now know that the COVID injections are not effective at stopping the spread of the disease. Safety of the injections is still being investigated and questioned.

 

It is unbelievable how many "respected" scientists still deny the existence of natural immunity against COVID, no matter how much research is presented.


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#265 Mind

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Posted 16 February 2022 - 10:59 PM

I wonder when we will get a true accounting of the deaths and disability caused by the COVID injections. Based upon what I have seen in my circle of acquaintances, the rates are quite low.

 

Here are the cases of two healthy teenage boys who died within a few days after taking the COVID injections.



#266 geo12the

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Posted 17 February 2022 - 12:50 AM

A good retrospective on the development of the COVID injections. Never before has a drug or vaccine with unknown long-term side effects been injected into more than half of the world's population in the less-than-a-year. Phase III trials for any vaccine would normally wrap-up after about 5 years, but sometimes as long as 10 years. If developers were following the normal process of approval, the earliest these injections should be judged as safe and effective would be 2024!!

 

We now know that the COVID injections are not effective at stopping the spread of the disease. Safety of the injections is still being investigated and questioned.

 

It is unbelievable how many "respected" scientists still deny the existence of natural immunity against COVID, no matter how much research is presented.

 

Here is the undeniable truth. The vaccines have saved countless lives and saved countless hospital visits and suffering. Do you deny that? For some being anti-vax is a part of their political identity and they will gobble up whatever anti-vax propaganda is spewed  by the kooky news ecosystems they inhabit. But all the propaganda about vaccines not working blah blah blah does not take away from the simple undeniable fact that the vaccines have saved lives and saved people suffering from severe disease. All of the spin and distortion of reality does not change that fact.  Time to move on and find something else to focus your manufactured political rage on. It's over.  


Edited by geo12the, 17 February 2022 - 12:52 AM.

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#267 pamojja

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Posted 17 February 2022 - 12:42 PM

The vaccines have saved countless lives and saved countless hospital visits and suffering. Do you deny that?


The disconnect with your continuing argument is, it's based on an invalid ad-hominem only, and stawman arguments stown in over that.

Neither I, nor Mind, or any distinguished scientist, like McCullough or Malone etc. are against vaccines at all. Otherwise we wouldn't all have been vaccinated repeatedly before. If that isn't proof than I don't know what.

Nobody denies that. Nobody here is anti-vax or arguing out of a particular political identity. But health concerns over a still experimental vaccine showing more adverse-events than all vaccines together reported over decades to the vaccine adverse events reporting system.

On top of that a temporarily genetically modifing vaccine with unknown long-term outcoumes against a disease, which mean mortality is around life-expectancy. For example in my case causing merely a running nose for 1 evening only.

What I've always been careful is to not eat pesticides, herbicides, fungicide and fertilizer laden GMO-food. So it would be more appropiate for an ad-hominem to shout 'Anti-GMO' at us.

Do you really think your non-sensical ad-hominem attacks would convince anyone other than those in your belief-bubble?
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#268 Mind

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Posted 17 February 2022 - 08:41 PM

It has been common over the last couple of years for the CDC statements to completely contradict data from other parts of the world. In Scotland, the vast majority of people ending up in the hospital and dying are both injected and boosted.

 

Some people think that the big increase in deaths among young males in the UK (similar trends in the U.S. and Canada), could be from the COVID injections. This is not proven. It could be the pandemic restrictions and not stop fear programming from U.S. media outlets like CNN, ABC, etc. caused a lot of depression, lower immune response, etc... It could be lingering effects from COVID infections. There are many possibilities. It should be investigated. I am glad some doctors are calling for an investigation.


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#269 geo12the

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Posted 17 February 2022 - 08:51 PM

The disconnect with your continuing argument is, it's based on an invalid ad-hominem only, and stawman arguments stown in over that.

Do you really think your non-sensical ad-hominem attacks would convince anyone other than those in your belief-bubble?



I am just presenting facts to counter the distorted anti-vax hysteria constantly being spewed here. But people like Mind will just cover their ears because they can't accept that there might be cracks in the reality of their world view. People like Mind will continue to get all of their information from slanted sources like the Washington times and ZeroHedge (which BTW was recently uncovered as a tool of Russian propagandists). Those sources are not interested in truth, everything is presented in ways that don't reflect reality and just feed the false narratives the Minds of the world are hungry for. The word distopia has been batted around here and the situation is distopian- you have vaccines that clearly keep people from severe illness and death- yet you have people who are being manipulated by a right-wing media ecosystem to accept false narratives that the vaccines are bad. It's absolutely mind control at a scary and sad level. If you folks are so brainwashed that you believe life saving treatments are bad what else are you willing to be convinced of by your media puppetmasters? You think everyone else is sheep, but, darlings, I hate to break it to you but YOU are the sheep.
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#270 xEva

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Posted 17 February 2022 - 11:48 PM

geo12the, the point here that no one wants to voice is that lives that were saved were in ~1% of the population, heavily over-representing older people and people with multiple comorbidities. Versus the lives that were sacrificed: young healthy people who had 0 chance of dying from covid. That's the crucial point. The young were sacrificed to save the old. And not just their lives and health. Their education, socialization and, crucially, their trust in older generations were irrevocably broken. This will undoubtedly amplify the usual intergenerational conflict, in 10-20 years, when this generation will come of age. And then who would blame them?


Edited by xEva, 17 February 2022 - 11:49 PM.

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