56 replies to this topic

[doug123]

I've heard that those mushrooms are also dangerous to the liver. 

Psilocybin Cubensis is not known to be hepatotoxic.

Do you have a reference for this?

[garethnelsonuk]

Regarding the initial post on this topic, correct me if i'm wrong but didn't this study show "spiritual experiences" rather than nootropic effects?

I wouldn't call being so high you don't know what's real and what's not an enchanced cognitive state.

[doug123]

Regarding the initial post on this topic, correct me if i'm wrong but didn't this study show "spiritual experiences" rather than nootropic effects?

I wouldn't call being so high you don't know what's real and what's not an enchanced cognitive state.

In the topic name, I initially made it a rhetorical question in line with the Washington Post headline...

...as in...if it is true that the "Mushrooms' active ingredient expands the mind" -- mind expanding -- I would assume many individuals would correlate that with the term "nootropic."

If you follow this link and read the whole debate, you might find Terrence McKenna's theory that the doubling of the human brain in two million years due to elements of our diet compelling...

[daimewaku]

Wow a coincidence that this thread is still kicking because tonight err yesterday rather, is when I had my psychadellic cherry pop'd. Not what I expected! It was more mental than visual and I really didnt enjoy it. I took some Niacin and a handful of pyritinol to come down and im about back to touching ground now. Still have a little bit of body buzz but it is tolerable now. Four hours ago there was just too many messed up thoughts passing through my mind that it was overwhelming. Things like Iraq war, music, my univ studies, am I gonna be able to sleep, etc... And it was creating such an anxiety in me that I cannot explain, even looking in the mirror was whacked out. I felt intemidated by my self in a way.

At least I finally experienced it to have my own opinion about it. Conclusion: Not for me.

Sorry to any of the prudes, but I feel that it was incumbent upon me to share this experience even though I dont have all my marbles back yet. Maybe I'm not posting anything and its all in my mind and this is just part of the trip.... Take your helmet and put your protein pills on!

[fast turtle]

Do you have a reference for this?

The evidence lies in the profound lack of evidence for the opposite, as far as I'm concerned; it's generally hard to run studies on human liver enzymes for a mushroom considered the highest schedule of illegality pretty much everywhere for the past 40 years.

For instance, there are studies like this documenting psilocybe mushroom ER visits:

ACUTE POISONING WITH HALLUCINOGENIC PSILOCYBE MUSHROOMS IN SWITZERLAND

Kunz MW, Rauber-Lüthy Ch, Meier PJ, Kupferschmidt H. Swiss Toxicological Information Centre (STIC), Zürich and Division of Clinical Pharmacology & Toxicology, University Hospital Zürich, Switzerland


Objective: The abuse of mushrooms containing the hallucinogenic psilocybin is increasing and serious adverse effects requiring hospitalization are not uncommon. The aim of this study was to analyze the health risk of abusive "magic mushroom" ingestion between January 1995 and July 1999.

Cases and Methods: All cases recorded by the STIC between January 1995 and July 1999 were included in this retrospective study. Cases with written feedback reports of treating physicians and hospitals were analyzed with respect to type and severity of symptoms. Symptom severity was classified according to the Poisoning Severity Score (PSS) of the EAPCCT/EC/IPCS (Persson et al. J Toxicol Clin Toxicol 1998; 36:332-7).

Results: Within the analyzed period (55 months) 161 acute exposures to psilocybe mushrooms (107 males, 41 females, 13 sex unknown; median age 20y (range 14-56)) were reported to the STIC. The reported cases increased from 12 in 1995, 13 in 1996, 24 in 1997, 65 in 1998 to 47 until July in 1999. Detailed written follow-up reports were obtained in 67 cases. 26 of these 67 exposures were mixed intoxications (18 (69%) with concomitant cannabis consumption). Symptoms included hallucinations in 29 (43%) and panic attacks in 21 (31%) patients. Additional symptoms were mydriasis, gastrointestinal upset, and tachycardia. Severity was assessed as mild in 23 cases (34%), moderate in 41 cases (61%), and severe in 3 cases (4%). There were no letal intoxications. Reasons for hospitalization were marked hallucinations, hyperexcitability, panic attacks, coma and convulsions. Concomitant cannabis ingestion did not increase severity. However, concomitant opiate and ethanol ingestion induced coma (GCS 3-4) in one patient, and concomitant LSD consumption resulted in convulsions in another patient. A 19-year-old male jumped from a tree in a while having hallucinations resulting in paraplegia. Delayed reactions (flashbacks) were reported in 3 patients.

Conclusions: The data indicate that in Switzerland the number of hallucinogenic mushroom poisoning has increased during the last five years, with a sharp increase in 1998-1999. In most cases magic mushroom ingestion alone results in mild or moderate self-limited psilocybin poisoning. Severe complications can occur with the concomitant ingestion of other substances of abuse such as opioids, ethanol and/or LSD, or following self-inflicted injury due to the nature of the psychedelic effects of psilocybin.

Traditionally, especially in the case of mushrooms, liver enzyme testing will immediately be done when someone is admitted to the ER for poisoning. The above has absolutely no mention of hepatotoxic or nephrotoxic effects in any of the subjects, and such an effect would surely be remarked about if it were to exist because it would absolutely be in the interest of those looking to study and treat psilocybin mushroom overdoses. However, there is a large amount of well documented evidence that some of the amanitas are very threatening to the liver, despite the numbers of their use in recreational users being far less than that of the psilocybin mushrooms.

I did find one article from Berkeley about cardiotoxicity:

Although much of the literature supports psilocybin as having relatively low toxicity, dependence and lethality, in the last two years, cases of serious physiological intoxication by natural hallucinogenic substances have surfaces around the world. A frequent use of hallucinogenic mushrooms have demonstrated to have effects not previously classified by the use of psilocybin. Currently, clinical case and overdose studies of patients showed that psilocybin use results from arrhythmia and myocardial infarction. The indole concentrations of hallucinogenic mushrooms do not present risks of adverse central nervous system effects but also cardiac toxicity (Borowiak 1998).

The myocardial infarction in the frequent users and in cases of sever intoxication suggest the possibility of cardiac damage related to psilocybin. According to recent studies, indole alkaloids are agonists at the 5-HT receptor in the central nervous system. However, peripherally they induce a sympathomimetic stimulation that leads to tachycardia and hypertension. In the past, the use of 5-HT agonists in migraine headaches was linked to myocardial infarction due to coronary vasoconstriction. In addition, serotonin receptor agonists can cause platelet hyperaggregation and occlusion of small coronary arteries. Because psilocybin is also an agonist of 5-HT receptors, it is conclusive from these observations that the use of this drug can lead to cardiac toxicity (Borowiak 1998).

In my lifetime I have met several users who, for a period of several months, would dose on psilocybin mushrooms several times a week. While they developed some remarkable psychological symptoms, all of them seemed perfectly healthy after their binges. Keep in mind that even OTC painkillers like APAP are very toxic to the liver, too, but are very widely used in our society.

At least I finally experienced it to have my own opinion about it. Conclusion: Not for me.

Psychedelics are generally something that will test the resilience of your inner character to a very serious extent. My theory is always: start at the lower dose, and work up, as there is always more time later if it wasn't strong enough for you. There are many books about things that can happen during the experience such as PiHKAL, TiHKAL, and the Psychedelic Experience, I would recommend checking them out before experimenting further if you ever plan to.

Edited by fast turtle, 22 November 2006 - 08:44 PM.

[xanadu]

Four hours ago there was just too many messed up thoughts passing through my mind that it was overwhelming. Things like Iraq war, music, my univ studies, am I gonna be able to sleep, etc... And it was creating such an anxiety in me that I cannot explain, even looking in the mirror was whacked out. I felt intemidated by my self in a way.

This is just your own internal anxieties and conflicts coming out. We are able to suppress these things but working throught them is a far superior strategy. The psychedelic forced you to deal with things that your subconscious mind felt you were ignoring perhaps. It can be disconcerting but is something we can either deal with or keep pushing back. Set and setting play a huge role in how the trip will be. You may have felt like you were under pressure at the time.

[garethnelsonuk]

Psychedelic drug use is never a good idea for someone who wishes to have optimal brain function. I prefer reality.

[doug123]

Do you have a reference for this?

The evidence lies in the profound lack of evidence for the opposite, as far as I'm concerned; it's generally hard to run studies on human liver enzymes for a mushroom considered the highest schedule of illegality pretty much everywhere for the past 40 years.

For instance, there are studies like this documenting psilocybe mushroom ER visits:

ACUTE POISONING WITH HALLUCINOGENIC PSILOCYBE MUSHROOMS IN SWITZERLAND

Kunz MW, Rauber-Lüthy Ch, Meier PJ, Kupferschmidt H. Swiss Toxicological Information Centre (STIC), Zürich and Division of Clinical Pharmacology & Toxicology, University Hospital Zürich, Switzerland


Objective: The abuse of mushrooms containing the hallucinogenic psilocybin is increasing and serious adverse effects requiring hospitalization are not uncommon. The aim of this study was to analyze the health risk of abusive "magic mushroom" ingestion between January 1995 and July 1999.

Cases and Methods: All cases recorded by the STIC between January 1995 and July 1999 were included in this retrospective study. Cases with written feedback reports of treating physicians and hospitals were analyzed with respect to type and severity of symptoms. Symptom severity was classified according to the Poisoning Severity Score (PSS) of the EAPCCT/EC/IPCS (Persson et al. J Toxicol Clin Toxicol 1998; 36:332-7).

Results: Within the analyzed period (55 months) 161 acute exposures to psilocybe mushrooms (107 males, 41 females, 13 sex unknown; median age 20y (range 14-56)) were reported to the STIC. The reported cases increased from 12 in 1995, 13 in 1996, 24 in 1997, 65 in 1998 to 47 until July in 1999. Detailed written follow-up reports were obtained in 67 cases. 26 of these 67 exposures were mixed intoxications (18 (69%) with concomitant cannabis consumption). Symptoms included hallucinations in 29 (43%) and panic attacks in 21 (31%) patients. Additional symptoms were mydriasis, gastrointestinal upset, and tachycardia. Severity was assessed as mild in 23 cases (34%), moderate in 41 cases (61%), and severe in 3 cases (4%). There were no letal intoxications. Reasons for hospitalization were marked hallucinations, hyperexcitability, panic attacks, coma and convulsions. Concomitant cannabis ingestion did not increase severity. However, concomitant opiate and ethanol ingestion induced coma (GCS 3-4) in one patient, and concomitant LSD consumption resulted in convulsions in another patient. A 19-year-old male jumped from a tree in a while having hallucinations resulting in paraplegia. Delayed reactions (flashbacks) were reported in 3 patients.

Conclusions: The data indicate that in Switzerland the number of hallucinogenic mushroom poisoning has increased during the last five years, with a sharp increase in 1998-1999. In most cases magic mushroom ingestion alone results in mild or moderate self-limited psilocybin poisoning. Severe complications can occur with the concomitant ingestion of other substances of abuse such as opioids, ethanol and/or LSD, or following self-inflicted injury due to the nature of the psychedelic effects of psilocybin.

Traditionally, especially in the case of mushrooms, liver enzyme testing will immediately be done when someone is admitted to the ER for poisoning. The above has absolutely no mention of hepatotoxic or nephrotoxic effects in any of the subjects, and such an effect would surely be remarked about if it were to exist because it would absolutely be in the interest of those looking to study and treat psilocybin mushroom overdoses. However, there is a large amount of well documented evidence that some of the amanitas are very threatening to the liver, despite the numbers of their use in recreational users being far less than that of the psilocybin mushrooms.

I did find one article from Berkeley about cardiotoxicity:

Although much of the literature supports psilocybin as having relatively low toxicity, dependence and lethality, in the last two years, cases of serious physiological intoxication by natural hallucinogenic substances have surfaces around the world. A frequent use of hallucinogenic mushrooms have demonstrated to have effects not previously classified by the use of psilocybin. Currently, clinical case and overdose studies of patients showed that psilocybin use results from arrhythmia and myocardial infarction. The indole concentrations of hallucinogenic mushrooms do not present risks of adverse central nervous system effects but also cardiac toxicity (Borowiak 1998).

The myocardial infarction in the frequent users and in cases of sever intoxication suggest the possibility of cardiac damage related to psilocybin. According to recent studies, indole alkaloids are agonists at the 5-HT receptor in the central nervous system. However, peripherally they induce a sympathomimetic stimulation that leads to tachycardia and hypertension. In the past, the use of 5-HT agonists in migraine headaches was linked to myocardial infarction due to coronary vasoconstriction. In addition, serotonin receptor agonists can cause platelet hyperaggregation and occlusion of small coronary arteries. Because psilocybin is also an agonist of 5-HT receptors, it is conclusive from these observations that the use of this drug can lead to cardiac toxicity (Borowiak 1998).

In my lifetime I have met several users who, for a period of several months, would dose on psilocybin mushrooms several times a week. While they developed some remarkable psychological symptoms, all of them seemed perfectly healthy after their binges. Keep in mind that even OTC painkillers like APAP are very toxic to the liver, too, but are very widely used in our society.

At least I finally experienced it to have my own opinion about it. Conclusion: Not for me.

Psychedelics are generally something that will test the resilience of your inner character to a very serious extent. My theory is always: start at the lower dose, and work up, as there is always more time later if it wasn't strong enough for you. There are many books about things that can happen during the experience such as PiHKAL, TiHKAL, and the Psychedelic Experience, I would recommend checking them out before experimenting further if you ever plan to.

Keep in mind I wasn't the one that said that psilocybin mushrooms weren't toxic. I was asking for a reference to the contrary, as I was under the impression that they are somewhat toxic, and your reference seems to support such a notion.

Thank you for providing us with these references, "fast turtle." These days, if I don't see citations or scientific references, I have a tendency to not even read posts at all anymore...yeah, anecdotal evidence is great and all, but not really worth my time these days...some of my friends (who have never seen me type before) tell me I spend too much time in this forum and they probably are right. I am working hard on a couple of projects on the side that do take up most of my time (I'm purchasing a new guitar soon, and it's a difficult choice!) I know I am definitely going back to Mesa Boogie for an amp. I used to own the Heartbreaker model:

http://www.mesaboogi...ker/HBBlond.jpg (except mine was black and red).

More info here

The last two guitars I purchased were replicas. I owned an Eddie van Halen Replica...it was beautiful and I loved playing it through the Heartbreaker (in lust mode AND love mode!)

It looked exactly like this one, except it didn't have the 5150 sticker on it:

http://www.vintagekr...tar-ebamber.jpg

I also owned an Eric Clapton Replica Martin. Too bad all of this stuff was stolen back in '99. Long story. I think this time I might get a Les Paul...I was thinking maybe a Stratocaster...but...not sure...the Van Halen replica was basically the neck of a Stratocaster and the body of a Les Paul (it might be the other way around)...it was bad ass to play on...

However, the music project hasn't started yet and probably won't until the other one is up and mostly done...anyways, no more mushrooom experiences for me. I had one REALLY hard core hallucination when I was 16 or 17 that scared the sh*t out of me...another long story...

Edited by nootropikamil, 23 November 2006 - 06:06 AM.

[fast turtle]

The internet is an easy place to spend much too much time on, but I don't know, I'm not sure where my time is best wasted these days. I spend a lot of time reading pubmed and textbooks, but, uh, I do not know. I have a lot of trouble wrapping my mind around the going ons of this society.

When I was younger I used to be a musician, or at least, a DJ and producer. And when I was younger yet, a visual artist. Right now I'm just kind of living on a day to day basis. The logical progression is to writing, but I might really have to isolate myself for that to get anywhere. I want to eventually get back to school (I dropped out) for chemistry.

Good luck with your music, the guitar is a beautiful instrument in the right hands.

I used to do a lot of acid when I was younger and maybe that's where I short-circuited, but looking back, I was never too altogether. As it stands, I'm happy cleaning the house and taking care of the cats, if nothing else...

[t4exanadu]

Do you have a reference for this?

Passie, Torsten, Seifert, Juergen, Schneider, Udo & Emrich, Hinderk M. (2002) The pharmacology of psilocybin. Addiction Biology 7 (4), 357-364.

You'll need access to Blackwell-Synergy or Addiction Biology for the full-text, however the salient portion is quoted below:

The somatic effects in humans were investigated first by Quetin22 in a non-blind study in healthy volunteers (n = 29, 8–12mg p.o., i.m.). The physiological changes which were noted regularly are listed in Table 1. These effects were confirmed qualitatively by another early nonblind study (n = 16, 0.11mg/kg p.o.).33 Discrete changes of RR and pulse were also confirmed in a recent double-blind placebo-controlled study (n = 8, 0.2mg/kg p.o.), as shown in Table 2.9 The effects described were barely noticeable and should be interpreted as secondary pharmacological effects, induced mainly by the sympathomimetic excitation syndrome.24 Hollister et al.25 found no significant aberrations of the aforementioned
parameters in one subject after adminstration of psilocybin for 21 consecutive days with increasing dosages (1.5 mg increased to 25mg p.o. in three doses per day). Electrolyte levels, liver toxicity tests and blood sugar levels remained unaffected.

[fast turtle]

^^ Ah, yeah, psilocybin/psilocin is pretty notoriously safe in animal studies... it's the mushrooms I wonder about, with the other tryptamines and whatever else they contain. I imagine that they're relatively safe, too, though.

[t4exanadu]

There's been very little to no human pharmacological research done using any of the Psilocybin species. Having said that, we could view the lack of evidence of hepatotoxicity in the general population due to recreational P. cubensis use as some degree of evidence of their safety. I'm willing to bet there is animal data on the mushrooms themselves, I just haven't looked. If anyone digs anything up let me know.

[shaman]

i think the order of psychedelic safety is pheneylethylamines, tryptamines, and then marijuana.
marijuana is known to cause anxiety and has a much higher potential for abuse than the traditional psychedelics. as far as the phen vs tryp, the phen class is safer (friendlier/easier) psychologically...i'd say dmt (a tryptamine) is probably the safest physically speaking since it is endogenous, but im not a doctor. peyote, incidentially, is in the phenyl class.
either way, abuse will screw you over, use is safe so long as u control intent, set and setting.

[stephenszpak]

This is like a search for soma. (hee hee)

"There was a thing called Heaven; but all the same they used to drink enormous quantities of alcohol."..."But they used to take morphia and cocaine."...
Two thousand pharmacologists and bio-chemists were subsidized in A.P. 178." ...
"Six years later it was being produced commercially. The perfect drug."...
"Let's bait him." "Euphoric, narcotic, pleasantly hallucinant." "What you need is a gramme of soma." "Take a holiday from reality whenever you like, and come back without so much as a headache or a mythology."

http://www.readprint...5/Aldous-Huxley

But more seriously now, (slightly off-topic) I have heard of Ecstasy being
used in therapy. The patient can talk about a traumatic experience
with no problem whatsoever.

Trauma link here:

http://en.wikipedia....ological_trauma

Excerpt here:

Psychological trauma is a type of damage to the psyche that occurs as a result of a traumatic event. A traumatic event involves a singular experience or enduring event or events that completely overwhelm the individual's ability to cope or integrate the ideas and emotions involved with that experience.

Ecstacy link here:

http://en.wikipedia....methamphetamine

Excerpt here:

Subjective effects

Effects desired by users include:

increased positive emotion and decreased negative emotion
increased sense of well-being
increased sociability and feelings of closeness or connection with other people [7]
reduced defensiveness and fear of emotional injury [8]
a sense of increased insightfulness and introspective ability [9][10]



Last I heard ecstasy is not legal in the U.S.
Ecstasy bought on the 'street' is ectasy plus all sorts of other crap. NOT
true ectascy. (This is what I saw on TV. So, basically I don't know.)

-Stephen

[Athanasios]

Psychedelic drug 'hope for OCD'
http://news.bbc.co.u...lth/6210694.stm

Reading the comments in this article, there is a long way to go before science on this stuff is viewed as science.

[stephenszpak]

cnorwood19

This is rich!

"And if the therapy and drugs don't work, invasive brain surgery is the only remaining option."

Hey they say we only use 10% of our brains anyway. If they took out
90% what it's gonna do? hee hee

If OCD is defined (at least partially) as "experiencing uncertainty about
completing a task" I don't see how any drug is going to totally overcome
that. Then of course the mind gravitates to the worst case scenario.
You know a person closes a house window and then as he/she turns away,
the knowledge they have closed the window is stolen from them. It wouldn't
matter, but they are leaving the house and rain might come in and.....

-Stephen

[Athanasios]

cnorwood19

This is rich!

"And if the therapy and drugs don't work, invasive brain surgery is the only remaining option."

  Hey they say we only use 10% of our brains anyway. If they took out
  90% what it's gonna do? hee hee

  If OCD is defined (at least partially) as "experiencing uncertainty about
  completing a task" I don't see how any drug is going to totally overcome
  that. Then of course the mind gravitates to the worst case scenario.
  You know a person closes a house window and then as he/she turns away,
  the knowledge they have closed the window is stolen from them. It wouldn't
  matter, but they are leaving the house and rain might come in and.....

-Stephen

I would think the invasive brain surgery would only be used in very severe cases. Some of these people feel life as one drawn out nightmare, and would gladly take extreme risks to try and fix their problem. Luckily, for many, SSRIs work very well.

It makes sense to me that a psychedelic could break the normal feedback loops that cause the problem. I know sex help breaks these loops, temporarily, for some people. There must be something more powerful than their OCD to break them out of it. If we find that mushrooms can alleviate the problem, especially in severe cases, then it could be a very big step forward in giving their lives back. I can only imagine what it would be like for some of them to be actually free of their symptoms for even a short while. It reminds me of talking to people who have had chronic pain. One of these people told me they had a healthy tooth pulled at the dentist without being numbed in an effort to feel something besides her chronic pain.

[stephenszpak]

I did read somewhere a number of months ago that inositol worked
as well as some drug (forgot the name) when it came to OCD. It was a prescription drug. I think surgery for OCD would be reckless and useless.

It was a study I think, if you're into OCD treatments.

-Stephen

[mushman]

Here is another reference for anyone that is not convinced that psilocybin is safe.
According to the Coordination Centre for the Assessment and Monitoring of new drugs:

This drug is not associated with physical or psychological dependency, acute toxicity is
largely limited to possible panic and anxiety attacks and, in terms of chronic toxicity, the worst
that can happen are flashbacks. Consequently, the use of paddos (hallucinogenic
mushrooms) does not, on balance, present any risk to the health of the individual.

http://www.erowid.or...oms_health1.pdf

[ora101]

It makes sense to me that a psychedelic could break the normal feedback loops that cause the problem. I know sex help breaks these loops, temporarily, for some people. There must be something more powerful than their OCD to break them out of it. If we find that mushrooms can alleviate the problem, especially in severe cases, then it could be a very big step forward in giving their lives back. I can only imagine what it would be like for some of them to be actually free of their symptoms for even a short while.

Perhaps it could be due to Mushrooms' being a kind of bioavailable oral DMT?

Ring hydroxylation of DMT at the 4-position of the indole nucleus results in the compound psilocin

An imbalance of bodily DMT has been implicated in schizophrenia, so could OCD also result from an imbalance of certain brain chemicals? Perhaps Mushrooms can correct this balance, albeit temporarily. One thing is clear; more fucking research needs to go towards psychedelics, period.

One of these people told me they had a healthy tooth pulled at the dentist without being numbed in an effort to feel something besides her chronic pain.

Among other things, LSD, even in sub-hallucinogenic amounts, has been reported to be an effective treatment for chronic pain for long after the drug has left the body, if I recall some people were pain free up to a month after.

The benefits of psychedelics towards quality of life are potentially huge, but the paradigm shift necessary in modern science and politics are astronomical at this point.

In terms of safety, the only reason to worry about LSD and Mushrooms is if you have a family history of schizophrenia, which can 'theoretically' be triggered by ingesting basically any psychedlic substances. LSD and Mushrooms are markedly non-toxic, one fact that is scientifically well established.

i think the order of psychedelic safety is pheneylethylamines, tryptamines, and then marijuana.
marijuana is known to cause anxiety and has a much higher potential for abuse than the traditional psychedelics.  as far as the phen vs tryp, the phen class is safer (friendlier/easier) psychologically...i'd say dmt (a tryptamine) is probably the safest physically speaking since it is endogenous, but im not a doctor.  peyote, incidentially, is in the phenyl class.
either way, abuse will screw you over, use is safe so long as u control intent, set and setting.

Unfortunately there isn't a way to so simply quantify the safety of various psychedelic substances; the pharmacology of each drug in particular is more important that its classification in most cases. Seeing as how a popular pheneylethylamine 'Ecstasy' has been shown to be slightly neurotoxic with infrequent use, heavy use can have very dramatic effects on 5-HT neurons. It certainly wouldn't be a safer choice than a couple puffs off a joint.

Also, you can't really compare marijuana to hallucinogens (LSD/Mushrooms/DMT) as the mechanisms are completely different (Cannabis affects cannabinoid receptors/(Common) Hallucinogens affect 5-HT). Another factor is the circumstances in which users partake of them; cannabis has pleasant effects for many people who partake daily, whereas hallucinogens such as LSD and Mushrooms are usually taken on special occasions and have anti-addictive properties, with the user typically abstaining from all psychoactives for a number of days afterward.

[doug123]

This story might be related...

News Source: Scientific American



January 31, 2007

How Hallucinogens Play Their Mind-Bending Games
By Nikhil Swaminathan


Image: © NICHOLAS SLIM/IMAGES.COM/CORBIS

PSYCHEDELIC EFFECT: Scientists believe they have found the group of cells that LSD and other hallucinogenic drugs act on in the brain

Researchers isolate cells affected by LSD and mescaline, potentially leading to more treatments for neurological and psychiatric disorders

Zeroing in on a group of cells in a high layer of the cortex, a team of researchers from Mount Sinai School of Medicine, Columbia University and the New York State Psychiatric Institute may finally have found the cause of the swirling textures, blurry visions and signal-crossing synesthesia brought on by hallucinogenic drugs like LSD, peyote and "'shrooms." The group, which published its findings in this week's issue of Neuron, may have settled a long-simmering debate over how psychedelic drugs distort human perception.

"There's this huge body of literature about these compounds, and I think this paper begins to nail down how the heck they're working in the brain," says Bryan Roth, a pharmacologist at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. "It's not the end of the story, but I'd say it's the end of the beginning of the story."

Since the 1980s researchers in this field have agreed that LSD, which was first synthesized by Swiss scientists in 1938, likely affects serotonin 2A receptors in the brain (serotonin is a neurotransmitter suspected to play a role in the communication of mood and consciousness). These receptors show up in many places in the brain, including several areas in the cortex (known for sensory perception), and the thalamus (an interior region known for relaying messages to the cortex as well as regulating arousal and awareness).

The current research was performed by creating a mouse model that enabled scientists to observe behavioral and cell-signaling responses to hallucinogenic drugs by comparing them with those triggered by lisuride, an anti-Parkinson's disease drug chemically similar to LSD that does not have hallucinogenic effects. After determining that mice given psychedelic drugs consistently experience head twitching, the team bred mice with the serotonin 2A receptor knocked out to determine whether the hallucinogens still caused head twitching.

After testing many candidate regions, the researchers localized the effects of hallucinogens to the pyramidal neurons in layer V of the somatosensory cortex, a relatively high-level region known to modulate the activity of other sections in the cortex and subcortical areas. Using what he calls an "imperfect but usual analogy," Stuart Sealfon, a neurologist at Mount Sinai Hospital in New York City likens the receptors to a lock into which both hallucinogenic and nonhallucinogenic keys fit. While LSD may turn this lock to the right, kicking off one set of responses, lisuride turns the tumbler to the left, an action that only causes a subset of those responses. "Both the hallucinogens and the nonhallucinogens activate what we would call the classical signaling cascade downstream of this receptor in these cells," Sealfon says. "But, the hallucinogens, we show, are activating an additional signaling cascade and we believe the sum of both of them together is probably what causes the effect we see."

U.N.C., Chapel Hill's Roth says that the new study's localization of LSD's effect on the pyramidal neurons in level V makes sense. "We know that LSD profoundly affects human consciousness and awareness & so this tells us that the receptor on those neurons is an important locus for modulating consciousness," he explains. "If you muck up the actions of those neurons, it wouldn't be so surprising that you would affect consciousness."

Still, the finding does not appear to have silenced the debate.

While Roth concedes that cortical serotonin 2A receptors are likely part of the mechanism of hallucinogenic drugs, Dave Nichols, a molecular pharmacologist at Purdue University, believes the thalamus must be involved in some manner. "The thalamus is the major relay station for sensory information that is sent to the cortex, and there are serotonin 2A receptors localized in the thalamus and the reticular nucleus of the thalamus, which controls the flow of information through the thalamus," he argues. "For the authors to say that a unique mechanism has been identified that does not involve the thalamus, I therefore think cannot be correct."

While consensus on the exact way hallucinogens work may be a ways off, Sealfon says the research goes far in demystifying the effects of drug abuse. Also, he notes, drugs similar to LSD are routinely prescribed to patients suffering from mental illnesses, often without doctors' full understanding their effects. "If you could understand what makes a drug like LSD or mescaline have such a dramatic effect, then the principles behind that and the approaches developed for [gaining that understanding] can be applied to drugs that are used to treat neurological and psychiatric conditions," he says, adding that doctors can then "identify what drugs will have less side-effects and more specific effects"


© 1996-2007 Scientific American, Inc. All rights reserved.
Reproduction in whole or in part without permission is prohibited.

Edited by nootropikamil, 01 February 2007 - 04:27 AM.

[aldebaran]

garethnelsonuk writes:

Psychedelic drug use is never a good idea for someone who wishes to have optimal brain function. I prefer reality.

Amazing! Over 2,000 years of the finest minds in Western civilization working on the problem of what "reality" is, and who would have guessed that our own Gareth has it all figured out!

Read Gary Lachman's Secret History of Consciousness, some time, and educate yourself. It might at the least temper your arrogance.

[biknut]

They're fun for a while but after that it just gets to be the same old trip. Pot's more better.

[zachadelic]

old thread, +2 cents while it's hot.

Eating or vaporizing hashish have a few less dangers to the body... but mushrooms and pot are rather different substances with different effects on the brain, mushrooms can be better compared to lsd, dmt, salvia divinorum and mescaline...

AFAIK, salvia divinorum (salvinorin a) doesn't have any 5-HT activity, mostly selective affinity for kappa opioid receptors (check out ibogaine for a bit of fun reading).

Psychedelic drug use is never a good idea for someone who wishes to have optimal brain function. I prefer reality.

'never is such a heavy word, man.' one view of reality is pretty ignorantly tunnel visioned, though ignorance sure is a personal choice.

They're fun for a while but after that it just gets to be the same old trip. Pot's more better.

space them between more significant changes/"checkpoints" in life, more to reflect on.


anyway, I've read in a bunch of places (nothing peer reviewed or officially reliable) that LSD (way different structurally from psilocin/psilocybin, some similar effects) can be a CE at sub-threshold doses: there might be some CE effect of said serotoninergics amongst all the other psychoactivities. or it was something else in the ergot that was better utilized in the derivative hydergine without all that psychosis non-sense.
/speculation


if anyone's willing, please edify?


on another note, low doses of mushrooms can greatly increase visual acuity (another 'citation needed', this time too lazy) - though I think the current research is focussed more on medicinal/psychotheraputic treatments than on edible glasses or cognitive enhancement.

[bgwithadd]

So where is the actual science here? I could interview 20 people who take drugs and you can be sure every one of them will say they are great. Some concrete benefit or use beyond mystic mumbojumbo would be nice. I'd really like to see what the actual therapeutic uses are and what long term effects they might have....

[Cuil]

Mushrooms helped me discover my fears in life. Which sucked at first, but is slowly paying itself off. Back in 2005, I had a near death experience. While I was feeling like I was going to melt into my bed while my body was energetically vibrating in harmony with the rest of the universe, I thought to myself, "that idiot roomate of mine gave me too much mushrooms and now im gonna die because of him!" So I accepted death, went through the whole process and felt reborn. The next 6 months afterwards I was really happy about life and could concentrate better because the thoughts in the back of my mind werent there anymore. Then I started smoking pot again and it went away. I kept on taking them and they did nothing to help me in that state of mind. I gave up on them for a while and then had dmt last year. Same effect but lasted a week instead of 6 months. For a week straight, I didn't want anything else, not even pot that I was pretty much addicted to.

As far as its nootropic effects, I can see that. I have a better understanding of language now. I pay more attention to how I word my thoughts to make sure that people can understand me.

However, as great of a review I give them, I will also warn that they are very dangerous to certain people, and without consulting someone who can demonstrate general content knowledge on these matters, I would say stay away from them. They may be harmless in low doses, but the experience that I had changed my life dramatically. It completely disrupted my ambitions and I ended a relationship with my fiance based on the new way of thinking I had. In some ways it made me more capable of success in the academic world, but it also caused tension in the social world.

I can't stress the most concerning effect of a high dose, and that is psychological death. It is very real and can terrify people who are sensitive to these substances. Although it helped me with my fears of death, the initial experience can lead to dread and despair, so I would not recommend it to anyone who has a job or is in school because it will take existential issues out of the background and put them in the foreground.

I would certainly not mix them with pot, as the combination can distort the mind and could lead to a state of hallucinations that the Buddhist refer to as the Bardo (an afterlife illusion that consist of intense dream states). Mushrooms may distort the mind in a certain kind of way, but they always kept me anchored in the present moment, while pot increased spacing out and daydreaming.

[dumbdumb]

Granted, this statement proceeds from more of an abstract logical basis than a purely scientific one, but one reason that I'm not at all surprised by the findings of this study is that it makes simple, solid, common sense that - barring any toxicity or oxygen-deprivation - ANY substance which alters one's state of perception must encourage synaptic rerouting and thereby the cohesion of conscious and subconscious thought. Right? And so anything "psychadelic" - like LSD, shrooms, ayahuasca, etc., would naturally have therapeutic effects; and that statement is born out by the results of numerous applications over the course of decades.

Now that I've added something to this thread, however meagre, I can probably get away with saying: i cant find any but i want some gimme :(