79 replies to this topic

[AgeVivo]

August 10: In cage 8a where there had been an incident due to an issue with water bottles, one of the two mice was dead - certainly the consequence of this lack of water. Being alone make mice depressive so on August 16 I am putting the last remaining mouse with other males, in cage 2a where there are 8 males that all tend to byte the back of others (as a reminder it sarted when they were not adult, and they all do that), I move them all around, make the knowledge with him one my one, and gradually put them all together, and it is fine (success!! fingers crossed -- I will double check).

So cage 2a had 4 black males of the 1st offspring (born 2022-09-01) + 1 bought male (white & brown but no white on the head, born approx 2022-10-15) + 3 males born later (2 white & brown, 1 white & black and mostly white on the top, all with on the head, born 2023-02-07) and I am adding the remaining male from cage 8a that is white & black and mostly black on the top (not obvious! born )

 

August 13: On female out 12 died in cage 7a, a white one. No cause identified but I didn't have the time to autopsy.

 

The tumor on the leg is growing (identified since a few weeks as indicated above), I am going to vacations but otherwise I would give vitamin D and mebendazole and antibiotics (based on my past experiences here, mebendazole seems to make the tumors degrade but the tumors get infected, perhaps because the mice scratch them, and the mice seem to die from infection rather than the tumor itself). I will see when I come back from vacation how it is...

[AgeVivo]

September 9

I didn't write here above but just after my last post, before going to vacations, I decided to put the mouse that is different from others (bought separately, long hair) again as a companion of a (the) mouse with a tumor, in cage 8a.
Coming back from vacations, all mice were alive. In cage 8a, the tumor grew, when I take the mouse in the hands it behaves in a way that shows that it hurts, but otherwise the mood of the mouse is good / she is curious and vivid. Today I gave them for drink a tea that people used to drink in case of tumors on the Island before pharmaceutical drugs replaced plant-based-medicine, with the arisal of free (tax-based) healthcare. Perhaps this will teach me how much weight to put on such things.

Starting now I will focus here on females only, as I am providing males to someone for a specific experiment (confidential but for longevity) and need to focus on the female lifespan (handling 8 cages is much and I need to handle the female lifespan test).

I had planned to test sildenafil (viagra) but it has been done: the Pfizer folder for viagra was made public and it is we can see that they tested the effect on longevity on rats and mice. The rats lived longer, especially males and especially at low doses; the mice did not, or perhaps in males at low doses. The analyses of deaths explain it all: sildenafil is neutral to cancers but good for the cardiovascular system, mice have more tumor issues in their lifetime than we do, cardiovascular aspects is less important to them. This furthermore suggests that low dose sildenafil (ex 25 mg per day) is good for cardiovascular health in people, especially males, so would make human males live longer.; as I had observed in human data and as other groups of researchers found (even if some did not but I repeated their work with positive results..). The lifespan increase in male rats may or may not be linked to sexual stimulation, which may or transpose to human males, but there are many other aspects of sildenafil that would explain an improved cerebrovascular condition, such as moves of the cerebrospinal fluid (observed in monkeys and volunteers with MRI)

So I need to decide what to test on my females. Some are one year and 4 month old
-cage 1a: 9 females born 2022-12-23

-cage 3a: 4 females born 2022-12-23 / born 2022-05-16 (to be checked with posts above and Excel file on my computer, I am typing fast here) 

-cage 4a: 7 females (the one with a tumor was moved to cage 8a before my vacations) born 2022-09-01 and 2022-05-16
-cage 6a: 8 females born 2023-02-07

-cage 7a: 11 females born 2023-04-01
-cage 8b: 2 females as expected (tumor and companion)

[AgeVivo]

no death but
- the one who had a tumor under its leg now has a large tumor (see the two pictures on the left) so the tea I was proposed in my vacations does not work ("sun herb")

- one has an absolutely huge tumor in cage 2a, I had not seen it two weeks ago so it must have been growing very fast in two weeks. the mouse was still eating when taking it so probably it made the mouse very hungry

So I put the put the two tumor mice together in cage 8b (and removed the companion back to cage 2a), and I gave them vitamin D3 (2000 UI), zinc (15 mg), medendazole (one big drop, I can count the dose later), in the food and in the water (with 500 mg vitamin C in the water but not sure it resists long) ==> hopefully they won't die too soon (their tumors are large) so that I'll see if medendazole here too makes the tumors degenerate and if with vitamin D and zinc their immune system is such that the tumors don't get too infected. 

Counts unchanged:
-cage 1a: 9 females

-cage 3a: 4 females

-cage 4a: 7 females
-cage 6a: 8 females

-cage 7a: 11 females
-cage 8b: 2 females

[AgeVivo]

OK. Time to start the experiment.

First, precise identification:

• cage 4a: instead of 7 mice there are 6 because one died, a fully dark gray one; it has a somewhat large belly, it is like sleeping on the side, it must have died from disease.
  • I very clearly recognize the female mouse number 10 (image when it was younger), born 2022-05-16 (estimation as we estimated she was 2 month old when bought). Still looking healthy/vivid & curious, perhaps a somewhat large belly. So 1x 16.8 month old today
  • there is one fully gray mouse, one black mouse with a light belly, 3 black mice with a black belly : as written in the label and followed so far they must be part of the 1st offspring, born 2022-09-01. So 5x 13.3 month old now; vivid / curious / looking healthy
• cage 3a: there are still 4 mice,
  • the "companion" one, large hairy white & light gray bought as "male", born approx 2022-10-15. 11.8 month old. That one being different from other mice, difficult to consider it as a normal individual for the lifespan study; vivid / curious / looking healthy
  • based on pictures of when they were young I recognize very precisely a black and white one here (the one on the left) and a black and gray/yellow one here (the one on the left) : born 2022-10-23; so 2x 11.5 mois; vivid / curious / looking healthy (in the last few posts another birth date was given in my messages but with the mention to check - done)
  • a gray mouse from the 3rd offspring, now with a tumor on its left side (2 cm3, that it scratches with the rear left leg) so not part of the lifespan test. "healthy" otherwise; born 2022-12-23: 9.5 month old
• cage 1a: still 9 born 2022-12-23 (3rd offspring) => 9x 9.5 month old. all looking healthy
• cage 6a: still 8 born 2023-02-07 (young even in appearance) => 8x 8 month old. all looking healthy
• cage 7a: still 11 born 2023-04-01 (young even in appearance) => 11x 6.2  month old. all looking healthy

That's a total of 1 (aged 16 months) + 5 (aged 13 months) +2 (aged 11 months) + 9 (aged 9 months) + 8 (aged 8 months) + 11 (aged 6 months) = 36 female mice of various ages valid for the lifespan test. The other ones died or have a tumor or are physically different. It will certainly be less that 30 mice started at old age. Woo.. that's really insufficient for a lifespan test. So much effort for so little... Anyway, I need to start. Plan: next post

Edited by AgeVivo, 07 October 2023 - 07:39 PM.

[AgeVivo]

The experiment with chlorogenic acid vs placebo starts today. My two sons know which water bottles contain cga and which don't. One of them fills the water bottles adequately (they are labelled like the cages), and I am blind to treatment vs placebo and I handle the cages including putting the water bottles, the other son doesn't really care about the mice (/finds the experiment interesting but has other interests in life)

I am splitting 4a into two cages, by taking one mouse after the other as they come and alternatively putting them in cage 2b and cage 4b [this was decided in advance, with the exception that if 2 seemed ill they would be put in different cages, but they are not ill]
- cage 4b has 3 mice born 2022-10-23 (almost one year old), all back, weighing 32g (white belly), 34g and 36g

- cage 2b has 3 mice, 2 born 2022-10-23 (almost one year old) - one black weighing 40g and one dark brown weighing 35g
One of the two cages will have treatment (in 2 bottles; dose to reach approx 40mg/kg), one water.

In cage 3,
- the one with a tumor died on Wednesday. It was eating its tumor and certainly it was hurtful because it went on the side and let itself die without eating nor drinking.
- the  gray/yellow one here (the one on the left) : born 2022-10-23; so not far from 12 months, was found dead yesterday, with no apparent harm (did not open it - lack of time on my side)

- the experiment started with either treatment or placebo (I don't know) with the companion mouse and the black and white mouse.

 

The 3 other cages (1 6 7) are unchanged

PS: dosage: 25mg cga (pre-measured in small tubes) in 350 mL of water ; twice per cage, in case on water bottle were to have an issue like being blocked or in the contrary leaking (such things are rare or non-existant now in my setting - but better being prudent)

Edited by AgeVivo, 15 October 2023 - 06:06 PM.

[AgeVivo]

In cage 2b the oldest mouse died today. She seemed OK when I changed the cages in the morning (she was just a bit slow to go out of her little house to see what was going on but this is frequent at all ages) and I find her dead in the afternoon.

White and brown. Mouse number 10. Last survivor of 6 female mice bought mid may 2022. Estimate age at death: 17.4 months. I sadly don't have the time to do a necropsy, but from outside there is no sign of tumor, bite or anything.

Edited by AgeVivo, 21 October 2023 - 02:32 PM.

[AgeVivo]

Clearly my mice don't live as long as usual B6 mice in a lab. I wonder if it is the equipment, the food I buy, the airflow, the frequency to change water and cages, the rust that gradually appears in the wheels (with former mice, I could see that wheels in plastic are eaten, which I felt is worse), or the mice themselves (bred for petshops). There are things I can't improve as I don't have enough time. I thought that there are good things for them: a nice little house in wood that they love, a nice embedding on the floor that they like to tear to make their house more comfy: a soft layer on the floor, and isolation to avoid being cold, enough height to jump as high as they can. There is some small light in the night in my kitchen, some articles showed that this makes them eat more; but it wouldn't affect lifespan this much. Anyway, for now no reason to change anything (and I don't see what I could), in order not to mess up the experiment.

Edited by AgeVivo, 22 October 2023 - 12:32 PM.

[AgeVivo]

No death
=> cage 2b has 2 mice, born 2022-10-23, one black one dark brown

=> cage 3b has 2 mice, the companion born approx 2022-10-15, and the black and white born 2022-10-23

=> cage 4b has 3 mice, black, born 2022-10-23

cages 1 6 7 are unchanged

[AgeVivo]

no death, all the same

[AgeVivo]

cage 4b: out of the 3 mice, one of the mice doesn't look very awake even its house is removed, she walks slowly and moving a big left-right wheen doing so. It is not thin however / not like a standard frail mouse that would have decided not to eat. To monitor.

 

no change otherwise (didn't change cages 6 and 11 today so can't be fully sure about them, but all seems ok)

[AgeVivo]

In cage 4b, the frail mouse was making some noise from time to time these last 2 weeks. It seems that the non-frail mouse with a white belly in that cage attacks/eats the nose of the frail mouse. But there is nothing I can do. The frail mouse it frailer, but still able to move around, eat, drink, and appearently enjoy things. So frail and with difficult times sometimes but not most the time.

 

In cage 1, there was a fight obviously during a night at the beginning of this week and in the next morning two mice were dead and there was blood on their house. There is probably nothing I can do against that when it happens. There was no sign of illness in that cage before - it just happens I guess.

 

Other than that, all mice are good looking good even if no mouse tries to jump to the borders of the cage when I let the cages open for long: clearly they are all somewhat old now.

 

The summary of where we stand is the following

• cage 1a: 7 born 2022-12-23 => 12 month old today. 
• cage 6a: 8 born 2023-02-07 => 10.5 month old.
• cage 7a: 11 born 2023-04-01 => 8.8  month old
• cage 4b: 3 mice born 2022-10-23 => 14 month old; including a frail mouse
• cage 2b: 2 mice born 2022-10-23 => 14 month old
• cage 3b: 2 mice: black and white born 2022-10-23 => 14 month old and the companion born approx 2022-10-15 => 14.3 month old

The experiment started with the last 3 cages when the mice were approx 1 year old, so similarly I am going to include cage 7 in the experiment: I am splitting it in 2 cages, 1b and 5b. One of the two will have treatment, the other one placebo (water only) - I won't know which one.

[AgeVivo]

All mice are alive and healthy,

• with the exception that the one that was frail in cage 4b is less frail but still is somewhat frail (with skin lacking on the nose, after one of its mate started eating her it seems, when she was very frail): she stills moves left-right a bit when walking, but it again curious of everything and climbs on things and is active
   
• and even though the old mice (all cages but 6a and 7a) clearly are much less active than the ones in cages 6a and 7a (ex: when opening the cage, they don't try to jump out of curiosity, even though they like when I put them on my pull-over before moving them to a clean cage), and clearly less active that teenage/young adult mice (who jump and fight everywhere)

I don't know what cage have water and what cages have chlorogenic acid, my son knows, I will discover when all mice died, and you too

[AgeVivo]

• All good EXCEPT that the companion mouse has lost the use of its rear legs. When touching its back, two bones seem to grow on the side: a congenital defect? I don't feel these 2 bones when touching other mice. All good otherwise

 

[AgeVivo]

2 deaths found early this week: one cage 6a (where treatment or placebo did not start - it looks like a fight as there was blood), and the one that was frail in cage 4b
one of the mice in cage 4b (the one with a white belly) has a tumor on the neck

• cage 1b: 4 born 2022-12-23 => 13.5 month old today. 
• cage 5b: 3 born 2022-12-23 => 13.5 month old today. 
• cage 6a: 8 7 born 2023-02-07 => 12 month old today => time to split it! 4 mice in cage 8a and 3 mice in cage 6a, one cage with chlorogenic acid (tea) and one with water, I don't know which one.
• cage 7a: 11 born 2023-04-01 => 10.3  month old today
• cage 4b: 3 2 mice born 2022-10-23 => 15.5 month old today; including a frail mouse
• cage 2b: 2 mice born 2022-10-23 => 15.5 month old today
• cage 3b: 2 mice: black and white born 2022-10-23 => 15.5 month old and the companion born approx 2022-10-15 => 15.8 month old today

Edited by AgeVivo, 10 February 2024 - 10:05 AM.

[AgeVivo]

one death in cage 2b. no obvious reason (no necropsy done, lack of time). The remaining mouse that is alone should be positioned in another cage in order not to feel too lonely; will do it soon

in cage 4b the tumor is now bigger (it was perhaps half a cm, it is now 1 to 1.5 cm)

• cage 1b: 4 born 2022-12-23 
• cage 2b: 2 1 mouse born 2022-10-23
• cage 3b ok: 2 mice: black and white born 2022-10-23 and the companion (that lost the use of its rear legs more than a month ago but it still approx ok; the two mice like each other very much it seems) born approx 2022-10-15
• cage 4b: 2 mice born 2022-10-23
• cage 5b ok: 3 born 2022-12-23 
• cage 6a ok: 3 mice in cage 6a
• cage 7a ok: 11 born 2023-04-01
• cage 8a ok: 4 mice in cage 8a

[AgeVivo]

After a week the mouse in cage 2b started to have bad fur and make noise - she was really getting depressed alone

My son told me I could merge her with cage 5b as they have the same treatment-or-placebo. When encountering the mice (in another territory to avoid fights), within minutes her fur was getting better and she came back to normal. So for what follows, clearly single mice need to rapidly join another cage

No death; so change =

• cage 2b
• cage 5b: 4 : 3 born 2022-12-23 (a black with a bit of white on top that has a big tumor on the rear that bleeds but the mouse doesn't seem to suffer that muchn it seems to be essentially cumbersome; a gray mouse, a white mouse) + 1 mouse born 2022-10-23 (black)

 

[AgeVivo]

cage 5b, the black with a bit of white on top that has a big tumor on the rear that bled, actually died 3 days after my last notes here.

Cage 7a: one mouse died 4 days ago, appearently kicked by others. (reapeating what was observed all along: in my young adults this has happened all along the way from time to time especially in males; once reaching soon 1y old this disapears and this is on the border of an exception; there are numerous mice in that cage also. In 8 days they will be one year old and I will split the cage and start treatment on one half and placebo on the other one, so there should be no death from fight : luckily these fights do not have an important aspect on the experiment).

Situation:

• cage 1b: 4 born 2022-12-23 
• cage 3b ok: 2 mice: black and white born 2022-10-23 and the companion (that lost the use of its rear legs more than a month ago but it still approx ok; the two mice like each other very much it seems) born approx 2022-10-15
• cage 4b: 2 mice born 2022-10-23
• cage 5b: 3 : 2 born 2022-12-23 (a gray mouse, a white mouse) + 1 mouse born 2022-10-23 (black) // the 3 live together even if the black one is slightly on the side; normal
• cage 6a ok: 3 mice in cage 6a
• cage 7a ok: 10 born 2023-04-01 -- soon to split
• cage 8b ok: 4 mice in cage 8a

[AgeVivo]

In cage 8 there, the soon 1 year old mice that have not started the experiment yet, there has been fights and 2 more deaths, one on Monday and one on Wednesday (during the night each time). Clearly that's the beige mouse, dominant, trying others to stay in a corner. So tonight I have split the cage tonight in two cages of 4 mice each, cage 2 and 8, hoping that the behavior will change. Fingers crossed.

 

Instead of putting them on the treatment-or-placebo on April 1st - when they are 1 year old exactly - I will wait a bit to check that the phenomenon has stopped; otherwise it completely biases the experiment

 

 

Another death occured, but normal: in cage 3, the "companion" mice that had lost the use of its rear legs for some time, died on Wednesday. It was moving less and less, eating and drinking less and less, and become frail. It seems it was starting to loose reason, eating the litter and moving sometime around without reacting to the other mouse (yes, due to these deaths, I observed things quite much this week). The remaining mouse starts to stop eating nor moving, so tonight I moved the black mouse of the same age from cage 5 to this cage 3.

 

So we have the following:

• cage 1: 4 born 2022-12-23 
• cage 2: 4 born 2023-04-01 (not in the experiment yet)
• cage 3: 2 born 2022-10-23
• cage 4: 2 born 2022-10-23
• cage 5: 2 born 2022-12-23
• cage 6: 3 born 2023-02-07
• cage 7: 4 born 2023-04-01 (not in the experiment yet)
• cage 8: 4 born 2023-02-07

[AgeVivo]

the split went well, there was no fight, all is good.
tonight the last two cages (2 and 7) were put in the experiment, one with treatment the one with the placebo

[AgeVivo]

yesterday:

• cage 1: 4 born 2022-12-23 
• cage 2: 4 born 2023-04-01
• cage 3: 2 born 2022-10-23; the black one seems fine; the white and black one has a tumor on the right front leg
• cage 4: 2 born 2022-10-23
• cage 5: 2 born 2022-12-23
• cage 6: 3 born 2023-02-07
• cage 7: 4 born 2023-04-01
• cage 8: 4 born 2023-02-07

another mouse has a tumor, on the right chest; it is a black mouse with another black mouse; not sure if cage 4 or 5 - will indicate in the next post