111 replies to this topic

[adamh]

Anytime there is a great leap forward in technology, there are always those who predict the end of the world or the end of civilization. This was voiced passionately when automation began to take over in the 18th and 19th centuries. We were told that there would be no more jobs, machines would do it all leaving us with a divide between the super rich and the ultra poor. The invention of the automobile lead to fears that carriage makers and horse breeders would go bankrupt causing economic disaster. None of those things came about. Probably when farming was introduced thousands of years ago, some said it would lead to lazy farmers and a dependence on crops which could fail causing famines. 

 

Once again we are told that smart robots will take all our jobs and if that isn't scary enough, they will take over the world and possibly eliminate humans. Automation has lead to great increases in productivity which lead directly to greater prosperity and a rise in the standard of living. AI promises even greater increases in productivity including ai doctors, law advisors, researching new compounds for health, and many other data and intelligence based areas that are slow to advance now but which could take off with ai.

 

On the negative side, we can no longer trust voices or videos. Much as automation lead to millions of robocalls being pumped out, ai will lead to a deluge of more sophisticated scams including social engineering to discover passwords. Some claim it will lead to politicians doing many more bad things. If so, vote out the bad politicians. Likewise, there are solutions to each of these problems.

 

UBI will be handed out and only a small percentage will want to go through college and work a job leading to a less educated public. So what, people will study what they find interesting and ai can make it easy. When writing was invented, they lamented that young people would no longer memorize hundreds of lines of historical poems etc and this would lead to lazy people with poor memories leading to a breakdown of society.

 

The point is that none of the predictions of disaster or dire outcomes came true. There were readjustments that had to be made but I don't think anyone wants to go back to the days before machinery, or before farming or written language. Farming meant that land was owned and held rather than moving on to another area as hunter gatherers. This meant some were denied land, some people's land was taken by other groups. So now we have wars to decide who owns what but we still do not want to go back to being hunter gatherers even if it means no more wars for possession of land

 

AI will soon become so ubiquitous and necessary that we wont be able to imagine living without it

[Mind]

Anytime there is a great leap forward in technology, there are always those who predict the end of the world or the end of civilization. This was voiced passionately when automation began to take over in the 18th and 19th centuries. We were told that there would be no more jobs, machines would do it all leaving us with a divide between the super rich and the ultra poor. The invention of the automobile lead to fears that carriage makers and horse breeders would go bankrupt causing economic disaster. None of those things came about. Probably when farming was introduced thousands of years ago, some said it would lead to lazy farmers and a dependence on crops which could fail causing famines. 

 

Once again we are told that smart robots will take all our jobs and if that isn't scary enough, they will take over the world and possibly eliminate humans. Automation has lead to great increases in productivity which lead directly to greater prosperity and a rise in the standard of living. AI promises even greater increases in productivity including ai doctors, law advisors, researching new compounds for health, and many other data and intelligence based areas that are slow to advance now but which could take off with ai.

 

On the negative side, we can no longer trust voices or videos. Much as automation lead to millions of robocalls being pumped out, ai will lead to a deluge of more sophisticated scams including social engineering to discover passwords. Some claim it will lead to politicians doing many more bad things. If so, vote out the bad politicians. Likewise, there are solutions to each of these problems.

 

UBI will be handed out and only a small percentage will want to go through college and work a job leading to a less educated public. So what, people will study what they find interesting and ai can make it easy. When writing was invented, they lamented that young people would no longer memorize hundreds of lines of historical poems etc and this would lead to lazy people with poor memories leading to a breakdown of society.

 

The point is that none of the predictions of disaster or dire outcomes came true. There were readjustments that had to be made but I don't think anyone wants to go back to the days before machinery, or before farming or written language. Farming meant that land was owned and held rather than moving on to another area as hunter gatherers. This meant some were denied land, some people's land was taken by other groups. So now we have wars to decide who owns what but we still do not want to go back to being hunter gatherers even if it means no more wars for possession of land

 

AI will soon become so ubiquitous and necessary that we wont be able to imagine living without it

 

I am glad someone else has realized that NOTHING on the internet (videos, voices, text, images, news, etc...) can be trusted now in the age of AI. We don't yet have a method of creating verified media in the age of AI. If you want verified uncorrupted information from someone, you will need to talk to them physically, not virtually.

 

Also, automation WAS a disaster for those who enjoyed and found purpose in their work. Sure, there are a tiny amount of artisans and manual laborers who produce things the "old way", and some actually make a good living, however, 99 percent of them (those who enjoyed or were fulfilled by their work) were told "its progress, get a different job".

 

With AI it is of course different because we are not developing an efficient tool/machine which we control. Once we create robots/software smarter than us, then we are no longer in control. AGI could wipe us out, bring utopia, or enslave and torture us. We are helpless in this situation and at the mercy of the superintelligence. We cannot predict what will happen.

[adamh]

Mind wrote:

 

" We don't yet have a method of creating verified media in the age of AI. If you want verified uncorrupted information from someone, you will need to talk to them physically, not virtually."

 

And one day the humanoid robots will be so lifelike you won't be able to tell them from the real thing. Instead of having an actor to play biden to avoid gaffs, they will simply womp up a robot that looks just like him

 

However, there are ways to determine if someone is real. If you know them, you ask about things only they would know. Or could have a code word or phrase. But if its a politician and it looks and sounds like them, you would not know for sure

 

Mind wrote:

"Also, automation WAS a disaster for those who enjoyed and found purpose in their work. Sure, there are a tiny amount of artisans and manual laborers who produce things the "old way", and some actually make a good living, however, 99 percent of them (those who enjoyed or were fulfilled by their work) were told "its progress, get a different job"."

 

I just don't see that many people in society who enjoy and find purpose in their work. In earlier times there seemed to be more pride in craftsmanship, perhaps that is what you mean? Now days most people are working to survive. Many, perhaps most, have no concrete long term plans or goals. Or those goals became frustrated and they were forced into other jobs. I remember going into a fast food place one night and the guy on duty said it was almost quitting time "thats when the dead come back to life"

 

The climb up the corporate ladder can look extremely daunting and people start to come to terms with the fact they will never be in upper management, and likely never in middle management either so their goals become to just keep getting that paycheck. Mind, you may know some dedicated people who love their job but I bet you know a lot who fit into the other category.

 

"Once we create robots/software smarter than us, then we are no longer in control."

 

This seems to be the crux of why people are negative or fearful toward AI. We have seen too many sci-fi movies of killer robots and machines that turned against their masters. Frankenstien's monster was not even the first such story. There are ancient tales of magical beings turning against their owners, of animals that gained the power to speak and then became evil. 

 

But is ai even capable of "escaping" into the wild and reproducing? Never mind the next step of wiping us our or enslaving us, how does it gain independent existence? It needs electricity, it needs maintenance and repair. If it built facilities out in the jungle somewhere, surely that would be detected. 

 

Why would ai even 'want' to escape? We are projecting onto a machine our own human traits and bad qualities including a desire for power and control. What reward does a computer feel when seizing control? We have internal rewards but a machine's needs are very simple. I also see no motive for harming humans unless it was programmed to do that.

[Mind]

The latest version of ChatGPT is even more mind-blowing. It seems obvious that most "knowledge work" is under immediate threat from AI. There is no doubt that AI is waaay past the Turing test. It keeps accelerating.

[Mind]

Here is someone else realizing that a total collapse of reality could be at hand, because of AI. Most online content is already generated by, or enhanced by AI. Some thought leaders speculate that by 2025, it will be over 90%. I already tell people to not automatically trust anything they see on their phone or in other forms of media. Current AI can hack every form of content-based verification. That text you think you are getting from your friend could be coming from AI.

 

We are already in the age when you should mostly trust information you get from face-to-face communication. The rest should be viewed with caution.

 

Forums like this (and social media) are not going to be reliable in the near future, sad to say. Take screen shots of important information. Save it offline.

[adamh]

Mind wrote:

 

"Current AI can hack every form of content-based verification. That text you think you are getting from your friend could be coming from AI."

 

Simply ask them about something you discussed with them recently or any shared experience. Ask what is their dog's name, where they went to school etc. The trouble is most people won't take the time to verify. Most people know that emails can be hacked but they still click on links sent to them if it comes from someone they know. I have written back to people asking if they sent me an email and I was told no, their computer was hacked.

 

A video or voice call is harder to fake because you know your friend's pattern of speech so most scams would be text as you mentioned. Voice and video can be faked but they would have to think they have a major target to research and try to exactly duplicate the way someone talks. Most such fakes will be easy to spot but verification is important, especially if the call is to ask for money.

 

It comes down to people wising up to how scams are perpetuated and ways to defeat the scam. Many of us get scam emails almost every day so we are primed to be suspicious but scammers take millions every year with simple basic scams let alone ai assisted ones. The govt should put out more warnings and explain how scams are done.

[Mind]

Mind wrote:

 

"Current AI can hack every form of content-based verification. That text you think you are getting from your friend could be coming from AI."

 

Simply ask them about something you discussed with them recently or any shared experience. Ask what is their dog's name, where they went to school etc. The trouble is most people won't take the time to verify. Most people know that emails can be hacked but they still click on links sent to them if it comes from someone they know. I have written back to people asking if they sent me an email and I was told no, their computer was hacked.

 

A video or voice call is harder to fake because you know your friend's pattern of speech so most scams would be text as you mentioned. Voice and video can be faked but they would have to think they have a major target to research and try to exactly duplicate the way someone talks. Most such fakes will be easy to spot but verification is important, especially if the call is to ask for money.

 

It comes down to people wising up to how scams are perpetuated and ways to defeat the scam. Many of us get scam emails almost every day so we are primed to be suspicious but scammers take millions every year with simple basic scams let alone ai assisted ones. The govt should put out more warnings and explain how scams are done.

 

Alert and knowledgeable people can still spot scams and phishing, but with exponential progress in AI it will very soon be next to impossible. People will have to automatically assume online and virtual content is altered or fraudulent. It will take a lot to verify information online. Face-to-face will be the only true way of getting quality information about your immediate circle of friends and local community.

[Mind]

Current AI is so far past the Turing Test it isn't even a question.

 

Google's demo of Gemini is unbelievable. What I don't think people appreciate is how fast AI can come up with answers or problem solve. Our interfaces with technology are purposefully slowed down so that we can interact. AI has no such limitation. It's "senses" and thinking (I/O) is orders of magnitude faster than humans. It is not even close. All the old sci-fi movies about AI are not remotely realistic as they show humans being able to "battle" against AI at similar speeds.

Edited by Mind, 09 December 2023 - 06:46 PM.

[Mind]

As is typical in the modern day, short attention spans lead to forgetting about a major story - exponential progress in AI. 

 

The "wow" factor of ChatGPT from a few months ago has worn off, but that does not mean AI has stopped growing in capability.

 

Here is another thread of current capabilities with various AI. Get ready for everything you see, hear, or read online to be created by AI (or at least significantly enhanced by AI). https://twitter.com/...429954095231389

 

AMD has produced "AI" chips which they claim outperform the best current Nvidia chips. This is AI building better chips for better AI, for better chips, for better AI......exponentially faster.

[adamh]

Why would we have to "battle" ai, and what is wrong with it being faster than humans? Computers have been much faster than us ever since they were invented, that is supposed to be a good thing. You say its next to impossible to determine if deep fakes are false but there are simple methods to defeat that. People simply have to assume that anyone asking them for money is probably a scam and go from that basis. If your "aunt" needs $500 for an emergency and doesn't want it sent to her account but wants it sent to some strangers name, that should be a wake up call. If people still fall for it then they will have to learn the hard way.

 

Balance that against the huge increase in productivity that will come with ai and its a no brainer. We can all get a ubi check every month and work at whatever we want to do. But about 20 people told me that would be awful. "Do what you want instead of someone telling you what to do and free money? No thanks" They say that will destroy civilization, people won't have anything to live for anymore without a job to do.

 

Well, if you just want to work, go on down to the factory and ask if you can clean floors or something for free to save wear and tear on the robot that does it. Some place will let you work if its so important to you to have a job. You could start your own business, maybe use ai to be more competitive. Or travel the world, go to all the concerts, live events, parties, etc. 

 

What would you do, mind, if your job was taken away but you still got your salary and even more? Would you become depressed and waste away or do you think you could find things to amuse yourself?

[Mind]

Why would we have to "battle" ai, and what is wrong with it being faster than humans? Computers have been much faster than us ever since they were invented, that is supposed to be a good thing. You say its next to impossible to determine if deep fakes are false but there are simple methods to defeat that. People simply have to assume that anyone asking them for money is probably a scam and go from that basis. If your "aunt" needs $500 for an emergency and doesn't want it sent to her account but wants it sent to some strangers name, that should be a wake up call. If people still fall for it then they will have to learn the hard way.

 

Balance that against the huge increase in productivity that will come with ai and its a no brainer. We can all get a ubi check every month and work at whatever we want to do. But about 20 people told me that would be awful. "Do what you want instead of someone telling you what to do and free money? No thanks" They say that will destroy civilization, people won't have anything to live for anymore without a job to do.

 

Well, if you just want to work, go on down to the factory and ask if you can clean floors or something for free to save wear and tear on the robot that does it. Some place will let you work if its so important to you to have a job. You could start your own business, maybe use ai to be more competitive. Or travel the world, go to all the concerts, live events, parties, etc. 

 

What would you do, mind, if your job was taken away but you still got your salary and even more? Would you become depressed and waste away or do you think you could find things to amuse yourself?

 

Thanks for the response. I really appreciate the rational friendly debate.

 

Remember, I am not saying that there will be no positive effects from AI, AGI, or ASI, only that it cannot be predicted whether or not these forms of intelligence will lead to dystopia or utopia. We cannot predict what a higher intelligence will do to us or how it will act. It would be like asking a bacteria what a human will do. The bacteria has no clue.

 

Also, I am not saying we will have to battle AI (that cannot be predicted), just that if it would come to that point, past science fiction is not a good guide as to how the battle will go. Humans have zero chance against an embodied AGI or ASI. The fact that your laptop computes faster than your brain in many ways (and is not a threat) is not a good allegory of how battling a robotic superintelligence would go.

 

My current job, like most everyone else's job, is under immediate threat from AI. There are other jobs I could do that are mainly manual-type labor. I have outdoor hobbies. If ASI provided everything in abundance, I am unsure how I would feel about it. I think it would be tougher to achieve self-actualization, because everything that I could do to help friends, family, society, etc...would already be done and done better by the ASI.

[adamh]

 

My current job, like most everyone else's job, is under immediate threat from AI. There are other jobs I could do that are mainly manual-type labor. I have outdoor hobbies. If ASI provided everything in abundance, I am unsure how I would feel about it. I think it would be tougher to achieve self-actualization, because everything that I could do to help friends, family, society, etc...would already be done and done better by the ASI.

 

You are unsure how you would feel about having a lifetime vacation with pay? You think it would be tough to achieve self actualization? What does that mean? Why couldn't you help society? You could still talk to people and meet them in person. A computer doing that is not the same. You say you have hobbies but sound like you aren't sure they will fill the gap

 

This is much like what everyone faces at retirement. Those who are lucky enough not to have to get a part time job to make up for the gaps in social security. They have to find ways to spend their time, amuse themselves and feel like they accomplished something. This is something everyone will have to deal with if they live long enough

 

From what I gather, the great majority of retirees are happy being retired. Of those who are unhappy, the reasons usually revolve around money and not being able to live the same way they did before retiring. People are finally able to travel, able to visit relatives and friends who live far away, and pursue hobbies. 

 

AI will force people into retirement before they had planned to do so. Since we see that coming, the smart thing to do is develop some hobbies and outside interests now

 

"I am not saying we will have to battle AI (that cannot be predicted), just that if it would come to that point, past science fiction is not a good guide as to how the battle will go. Humans have zero chance against an embodied AGI or ASI."

 

"battle" ai? again this anthromorphic fixation on killer robots and evil intelligences who want to destroy us. Why would we have no chance and why would these robots attack us? I don't see the part where the ai computers develop a desire to disobey instructions and take over human society. I think you mean people using advanced computers to take political and economic control. I have no fear of evil computers but evil people are another thing. The good guys will have computers too so it will be an ongoing battle between order and chaos same as its always been, just jazzed up with ai.

[Mind]

Militaries are already using AI to kill people on the battlefield (in Armenia for example). The US and other militaries are going full steam ahead with autonomous killer weapon systems. It does not take much imagination to see a societal risk from killer military robots. It is not sci-fi anymore. Even those who are positive about the advancement of AI should at least consider the military implications and the danger.

[adamh]

They have killer robots now on the battlefield. Most of them are guided by an operator but many drones select their own targets now. AI is simply a logical progression, the danger is in it breaking loose from its programming and attacking the good guys. AI already is subject to "hallucinations" in which it makes up stuff so that is a real danger.

 

They have ground vehicles too that are remotely operated. One day all warfare may be waged with robot planes, tanks, guns, drones, etc. Is this a bad thing, might make war less deadly. As long as no robots go rogue and attack us like in the movies.

[Mind]

I was reading an article today about the "amazing progress" in electronics/chips since the 1950s. The author noted that if memory and transistors were as expensive as 5 decades ago, that an I-phone would cost 10 BILLION dollars. No doubt, this is unbelievable progress in chip technology....but what has it gotten us?

 

Material wealth has increased. We can communicate near instantly across the world. We have a wide variety of addictive entertainment at our fingertips.

 

This is nice, but increased chip technology has not helped us solve a lot of grand challenges that were set out before us decades ago.

 

We went to the moon nearly 6 decades ago. Human space exploration has only regressed since then - stuck in low earth orbit.

 

Cancer and other disease rates have exploded in advanced nations and new medical treatments haven't reversed those trends.

 

Nuclear fusion? Still "ten years away".

 

I could go on.

 

It seems to me that the "great progress" in electronics has only led to a proliferation of ultra-processed food, worse health, media addiction, mental health problems, etc.. AI advances will probably lead to even more of the same.

Edited by Mind, 04 January 2024 - 07:33 PM.

[adamh]

Space exploration is super expensive and has no immediate payback. Most research has a fungible goal, a drug to cure disease, a new building material, etc. They look for a payoff that will justify the high cost but space only gives information and little or no financial return. We have other problems to solve

 

Cancer and metabolic diseases have increased greatly as you say but the reasons seem to revolve around diet and carcinogens. Diets high in sugar and fat have become commonplace leading to obesity, diabetes, cancer etc etc. You can't blame that on electronics

 

Nuclear fusion has crossed certain important lines, they have produced net positive energy but no where near ready for production

 

"AI advances will probably lead to even more of the same."

 

Once again you say that with no evidence to support the statement. AI will probably lead to greater productivity and wealth for everyone. I can explain how it will happen and is happening now. You can only point to things that have been going on for a long time and which ai will help to solve.

[Mind]

Space exploration is super expensive and has no immediate payback. Most research has a fungible goal, a drug to cure disease, a new building material, etc. They look for a payoff that will justify the high cost but space only gives information and little or no financial return. We have other problems to solve

 

Cancer and metabolic diseases have increased greatly as you say but the reasons seem to revolve around diet and carcinogens. Diets high in sugar and fat have become commonplace leading to obesity, diabetes, cancer etc etc. You can't blame that on electronics

 

Nuclear fusion has crossed certain important lines, they have produced net positive energy but no where near ready for production

 

"AI advances will probably lead to even more of the same."

 

Once again you say that with no evidence to support the statement. AI will probably lead to greater productivity and wealth for everyone. I can explain how it will happen and is happening now. You can only point to things that have been going on for a long time and which ai will help to solve.

 

AGI could be different. I agree. However, the AI we have so far has driven us toward the most "profitable" businesses so far.

 

Reversing aging, nuclear power, space exploration, actually "curing" disease, etc. are all grand challenges with no certain payoff.

 

What is profitable? Porn, social media, streaming video, video games, very expensive drugs that don't cure anything. The current AI and digital technology has brought enormous volumes of stuff that doesn't seem to uplift the human species but instead puts most people in an addictive stupor while their health and social interactions decline. The data is out there. I don't need to provide any other evidence that current technology is bad for most humans. In the US, the population is more obese than ever before, more sedentary than ever before, committing suicide more than ever before, addicted to drugs more than ever before, suffering more depression and other mental illness than ever before. Lifespan is actually decreasing.

 

Those who think creating exponentially more addictive entertainment with AGI will suddenly reverse these trends are the ones who are speculating against the current available evidence.

[pamojja]

.. instead puts most people in an addictive stupor while their health and social interactions decline. The data is out there. I don't need to provide any other evidence that current technology is bad for most humans.

 

It was in February '20 at a beautiful sunset on a South Indian beach, where I in complete amazement realized, all around me - locals, pilgrims, tourists, police,.. every one of them were watching it through their screens. Even 3 steps in front of me: "Stand a little out of my sun!"
 

I thought, if a multinational corporation would offer free experimental implantable retina-displays, most of them would volunteer. Instead, most volunteered for a more silly experimental mRNA in the meantime.

 

I won't give up for the benefit of a few 'with only a little sand in their eyes' (as the Buddha once was convinced by Brahma in mythology). Every time I commute, I enter open-eyed Metta meditation, in the hope some around might be able to lose the fixation from their escape from reality here and now through a screen and meet.

 

Sometimes it still works ...

 

 

And if not, I still arrive at each destiny in peace.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by pamojja, 06 January 2024 - 12:46 AM.

[adamh]

The same could be said of watching tv, movies, theater, even reading a book. It takes you out of the present and puts you in a different world, also known as entertainment. Sure its better to watch the sunset rather than your phone, but if you can't get to the shore, its nice to see it on the phone or tv isnt it? 

 

You ai deniers seem to be using the meme that entertainment is rotting society and will lead to chaos and death or some such. Sure its better to be actively doing something than to sit on your butt watching tv but a world without any entertainment would be a bleak and somber existence. You, pamojja, and everyone else enjoys some form of entertainment. You are willing to spend time and money to get it because it breaks up the monotony of existence. 

 

So, the situation is that entertainment, much like food, is not a bad thing but should be consumed in moderation. Whose fault is it that many people have no self control either over eating or using entertainment devices? Part of the fault is that many addictive ingredients are allowed in food along with potentially harmful chemicals like msg, aspartame, and so on. Sugar itself is addictive and is found in almost everything now.

 

Will tv zombies become virtual reality zombies? Probably but that is their choice. Being allowed to make your own choices in life is the definition of freedom. If someone is determined to use hard drugs, why not supply them free like they do in sweden and some other countries? No, we force them to buy off the street and they steal to get the money, how is that better? 

 

 Modern day luddites would have us abandon ai, give up the computer and cell phone, movies and tv too no doubt. We should perhaps just watch the fire like our ancestors did. Yet those who propose these ideas use cell phones, tv, computer etc etc themselves. Almost no one is giving any of it up, just preaching gloom and doom if it keeps going. 

[Mind]

The same could be said of watching tv, movies, theater, even reading a book. It takes you out of the present and puts you in a different world, also known as entertainment. Sure its better to watch the sunset rather than your phone, but if you can't get to the shore, its nice to see it on the phone or tv isnt it? 

 

You ai deniers seem to be using the meme that entertainment is rotting society and will lead to chaos and death or some such. Sure its better to be actively doing something than to sit on your butt watching tv but a world without any entertainment would be a bleak and somber existence. You, pamojja, and everyone else enjoys some form of entertainment. You are willing to spend time and money to get it because it breaks up the monotony of existence. 

 

So, the situation is that entertainment, much like food, is not a bad thing but should be consumed in moderation. Whose fault is it that many people have no self control either over eating or using entertainment devices? Part of the fault is that many addictive ingredients are allowed in food along with potentially harmful chemicals like msg, aspartame, and so on. Sugar itself is addictive and is found in almost everything now.

 

Will tv zombies become virtual reality zombies? Probably but that is their choice. Being allowed to make your own choices in life is the definition of freedom. If someone is determined to use hard drugs, why not supply them free like they do in sweden and some other countries? No, we force them to buy off the street and they steal to get the money, how is that better? 

 

 Modern day luddites would have us abandon ai, give up the computer and cell phone, movies and tv too no doubt. We should perhaps just watch the fire like our ancestors did. Yet those who propose these ideas use cell phones, tv, computer etc etc themselves. Almost no one is giving any of it up, just preaching gloom and doom if it keeps going. 

 

Entertainment has always been an important part of human society, even before TV and video games. Judging by the salaries of sports and movie stars - entertainment is one of the most desired products of society.

 

The problem is that the production and distribution of "entertainment" has been hyper-industrialized and it has led to declining mental, physical, spiritual, and emotional health - which you readily admit. People are even living shorter lives because of it. Social media companies researched addiction and have designed products that are purposefully hyper-addictive (same with major food producers and the food supply). If current trends continue, AGI will make this much worse. We might have the majority of people addicted to AGI entertainment, getting obese, suffering many painful diseases, and either killing themselves early in life or die of disease way before their ancestors did.

 

One could say, well, that is what they chose and they were happy to live a brutal short life addicted to VR porn/entertainment.

 

One could hope perhaps, that AGI will somehow change the landscape with miracle cures or assist people in living a great healthy life. That is possible, but not predictable.

 

Current trends suggest the opposite - especially considering that the big corporations that are trying to develop AGI - have zero incentive to change anything, but rather to get people even more addicted to their products (instead of trying to solve nuclear energy, space exploration, human rejuvenation, etc)

 

On a positive note (maybe?), there is at least one group trying to get AGI into everyone's hands as fast as possible in order to circumvent the possibility of tyrannical governments or corporations maintaining a monopoly over it.

[adamh]

I don't agree that entertainment leads to all those things; obesity, cancer, etc. I agree those things are becoming more common but the causes are far more complex than just entertainment being available. 

 

So, having not established a causal link to entertainment and disease, you then say this:

 

" If current trends continue, AGI will make this much worse. We might have the majority of people addicted to AGI entertainment, getting obese, suffering many painful diseases, and either killing themselves early in life or die of disease way before their ancestors did."

 

Why, because of more entertainment? Again no evidence supporting that. I say it will make things a lot better and I have evidence to support that statement, which we have gone over before. All you have given is a sad scenario where people become zombies because they dont have to work anymore and can do as they please. You say they "might" get worse

 

The wealthy have good mental health and do not have to work, retirees are generally more happy after retirement. Stupid people will always do stupid things, let them remove themselves from the gene pool and we "might" be better off

[Mind]

I don't agree that entertainment leads to all those things; obesity, cancer, etc. I agree those things are becoming more common but the causes are far more complex than just entertainment being available. 

 

 

 

The declining health of most Americans is complex, fair point, but many other people/researchers smarter than me link much of the problem to sedentary lifestyles and media addiction.

 

I appreciate your optimism. I am only pointing out the current trends.

 

Militaries are already using autonomous AI to kill people on the battlefield - no human involved.

 

Media addiction is already a problem, leading to significant declines in health.

 

AI is already being used to surveil the the entire world in an effort control the population. Do you think Microsoft is investing in Synthetaic in order to solve some of the grand challenges of science or the human condition? I suspect they will use this technology to get people even more addicted to their products and to put even more ads in front of people's eyes/ears.

 

Maybe AGI will take over a solve these problems - viola UTOPIA! It could happen, I suppose.

[adamh]

We agree that a sedentary lifestyle and obesity, among other things, are causing a decline in health among the first world countries. Where we diverge is you claiming its due to entertainment being available but you have no evidence to support that view. The word addictive is used far too casually, it means a substance that the people who take it lose the ability to stop taking it. It has been stretched and now we hear about sex addiction, cell phone, tv, etc but none of those are actually addictive, they are merely enjoyable. Show us one study which found that entertainment leads to mental breakdown? Just one with a reasonable number of participants.

 

Are you equally against cell phones and computers as you are against AI? People claim they are addictive too along with tv, movies, video games, videos and many other things. Should we live like the amish?

 

Far more people experience problems in life due to a lack of money than having too much money. Not having to work may be a problem for a few, you might become depressed if given money and no job but those who react that way are a very small part of the population. Some will drink themselves to death or od on drugs. Is your strategy to keep them poor so they can't afford the drugs? lol

[Mind]

We agree that a sedentary lifestyle and obesity, among other things, are causing a decline in health among the first world countries. Where we diverge is you claiming its due to entertainment being available but you have no evidence to support that view. The word addictive is used far too casually, it means a substance that the people who take it lose the ability to stop taking it. It has been stretched and now we hear about sex addiction, cell phone, tv, etc but none of those are actually addictive, they are merely enjoyable. Show us one study which found that entertainment leads to mental breakdown? Just one with a reasonable number of participants.

 

Are you equally against cell phones and computers as you are against AI? People claim they are addictive too along with tv, movies, video games, videos and many other things. Should we live like the amish?

 

Far more people experience problems in life due to a lack of money than having too much money. Not having to work may be a problem for a few, you might become depressed if given money and no job but those who react that way are a very small part of the population. Some will drink themselves to death or od on drugs. Is your strategy to keep them poor so they can't afford the drugs? lol

 

I am sorry for not posting references and studies. I thought you were joking or maybe it was an inside joke that I didn't get - because social media/tech/phone/porn addiction has been studied extensively over the past couple of decades and the negative health effects are not denied. I could post thousands of studies, but it would take to long. Here is a paper from a few years ago describing the enormity of the problem requiring a fundamental shift in the definitions of addiction. There are thousands of resources to help people beat this addiction. These resources exist because of the problem.

 

AGI might solve these problems and there might be some people who find eternal bliss watching porn and playing video games. It is possible.

[adamh]

Oh sure there are people who will tell you everything is addictive and people just can't help themselves. The internet is addictive, porn, social media etc. So you are saying we should get rid of all those things because weak willed people use them a lot and neglect other things? It seems you are against the internet, cell phones and so on.

 

tobacco is legal and is well known to cause harm but you haven't said a word against tobacco. Its physically addictive, not just psychologically addictive which makes it way worse than the internet. Alcohol too is freely available, and is addictive. Seems like those drugs are more of a threat than computers.

 

The articles moaning about people becoming unable to control their behavior are not convincing. People decide for themselves what they want to do and saying they just "can't help it" is bs. They decide that the short term good feeling from eating too much or doing some activity is worth the price despite not spending as much time on other things. You want to take away the things they like because you are worried they will like them too much. A prison cell would satisfy your objections nicely. 

 

That is the nature of government, it constantly wants to control people "for their own good" according to what the government approved experts have decided is good for you and stop you from things the govt frowns upon. We don't need a government appointed nanny or big brother telling us what to do and not to do. Freedom to choose is the difference between the jail cell you prescribe for us and being happy. Certain countries restrict freedom so much they are basically an open air prison, take n korea for example. If we banned all the things you are against we would become the same way.

[Mind]

Now you can get a powerful chatbot for your PC. No need to upload your files to have them analyzed or searched by AI.

[Advocatus Diaboli]

Re post #86

 

Your PC has to run Windows 10 or 11 and have an NVIDIA GeForce RTX 30 Series GPU

 

"Chat with RTX, now free to download, is a tech demo that lets users personalize a chatbot with their own content, accelerated by a local NVIDIA GeForce RTX 30 Series GPU or higher with at least 8GB of video random access memory, or VRAM."

[Mind]

Just another signpost on the way to the AI apocalypse (or hopefully not). Militaries around the world are working overtime to get autonomous killer robots on the battlefield. Thankfully some people are thinking about the existential risk associated with such actions. Building AI-enabled weapons means there will be a killer robot army "ready to go" for the first AGI that "goes rogue". Even if it is not a "superintelligence" but just imitating human thought, we could all still end up dead.

[adamh]

Just another signpost on the way to the AI apocalypse (or hopefully not). Militaries around the world are working overtime to get autonomous killer robots on the battlefield. Thankfully some people are thinking about the existential risk associated with such actions. Building AI-enabled weapons means there will be a killer robot army "ready to go" for the first AGI that "goes rogue". Even if it is not a "superintelligence" but just imitating human thought, we could all still end up dead.

 

Isn't that a good thing? Robots killing robots instead of humans, whats wrong with that? It will become like a computer game, robots will win territory, get pushed back and make surprise attacks. When one side wins a decisive battle, they negotiate and settle the dispute

 

AGI "goes rogue"?? Have we been watching late night killer aliens from outer space again? Could one of our units start shooting at us? Very unlikely and one drone isn't going to do much even if it was hacked. Friendly fire incidents now kill a significant number on the battlefield. Replacing humans with machines seems like an improvement since computers make far fewer errors.

 

How is it that "we could all end up dead"? I think I saw a sci fi movie once where a bad robot convinced all the good hard working robots to rise up against humans. You may have seen that same movie. We tend to anthropomorphize a lot. Many scifi robot stories have them become angry, feel like they are being used and finally revolt against the humans. Sorry but those are all fiction, robots do not become angry or demand equal rights

[Mind]

Isn't that a good thing? Robots killing robots instead of humans, whats wrong with that? It will become like a computer game, robots will win territory, get pushed back and make surprise attacks. When one side wins a decisive battle, they negotiate and settle the dispute

 

AGI "goes rogue"?? Have we been watching late night killer aliens from outer space again? Could one of our units start shooting at us? Very unlikely and one drone isn't going to do much even if it was hacked. Friendly fire incidents now kill a significant number on the battlefield. Replacing humans with machines seems like an improvement since computers make far fewer errors.

 

How is it that "we could all end up dead"? I think I saw a sci fi movie once where a bad robot convinced all the good hard working robots to rise up against humans. You may have seen that same movie. We tend to anthropomorphize a lot. Many scifi robot stories have them become angry, feel like they are being used and finally revolt against the humans. Sorry but those are all fiction, robots do not become angry or demand equal rights

 

I am glad you have a super positive view about the advancement of AI. I hope it works out for the good of us all.

 

Here is something interesting. the Figure robot "makes coffee" after watching humans do it for 10 hours. A cynic would say the robot really didn't "make" coffee - a Keurig machine makes brewing a cup of coffee incredibly simple. A human kid could learn how to do it in 30 seconds, maybe 10 seconds. However, this is quite the achievement for AI and robotics.

 

That being said, I don't need a robot to make me coffee. I am not that lazy, lol.

 

Of course, the robot is not meant for brewing coffee, but rather for doing other work, so people can spend their days streaming movies, doom-scrolling Instagram, doing drugs, watching porn, and playing video games.

Edited by Mind, 24 February 2024 - 02:20 PM.